For-profit health care providers should NOT be involved in health care reforms.

[Hepburn]

It's very simple: One does not put the fucking fox in the hen house.

Health care should never have been allowed to become a "for profit" industry. The necessary reform is to make a non-profit system that centers on the best interests of the patient. Those who have a profit motive are going to buck any reform that takes $$$ out of their pockets.

Prez Obama: Stop talking to them, OK? Get a non-profit system in place and if the scum that lives off the ill and injured do not like it, that is their problem. The most important consideration is getting health care services to EVERYONE.

JMHO

[Captain Hilts]

1. Cut them out completely, and they'll sabotage the whole process a la '94. nt

[Hepburn]

3. It is like I said:

Putting the fox in the hen house. These people are not interested in reform. If they gave a shit about people, we would NOT have the crap system in place we now have.

It is that simple to me: They ARE the problem, leave them out of the solution.

[Hepburn]

2. Thank you for the rec...

...and you most likely can see from my OP, I cannot see any reason for those for-profit vultures to be involved in setting up reforms for a systm that they manufactured to screw everyone but themselves.

JMHO

[AndyA]

4. That's not the way America works.

In America, we have the alcoholic hold on to the liquor cabinet key.

We allow wackos to carry around loaded weapons.

We allow industries to police themselves, because they'll always do the right thing for the American people, even if it causes them to earn less.

We allow liars who went AWOL to become Commander In Chief.

We take Supreme Court nominees at their word, despite their having a long history that proves something different.

We've always done this bullshit in America. And what has it gotten us? How much time and money have we wasted on these worthless policies? How many people have died because of them? And how much more are we, as a people, willing to take?

Some of us never learn, it seems. It's insanity, because we keep doing the same things over and over and expect a different outcome each time. :shrug:

[Hepburn]

5. +1

Thank you for the great reply.

Yes, we do this bullshit and wonder they the hell there is a problem. I cannot imagine how consulting with the health care insurance industry and the big wig providers is gonna give us anything but grief.

It is like asking a rapist to set his own terms for reform. You really think that POS is gonna vote for any meaningful reform? :eyes:

[intheflow]

14. You forgot:

We allow the bankers to write bankruptcy and credit laws.

We allow utility companies (big oil, gas and electric) to write our energy policy.

It IS insanity, and they're only getting away with it because the rest of us are so busy trying to survive the day-to-day clusterf*ck they've thrown us into we haven't the time nor the means to mobilize.

[Hepburn]

21. Excellent points...

...:applause:

Clusterfuck...exactly!

[noiretextatique]

6. the only way to fix the system

is to take the profit motive out of it. i doubt that will happen anytime soon, but it's the only way to achieve meaningful reform.
thanks for stating the obvious.

[Hepburn]

8. But....

...to some it is not that obvious. They are looking, IMO, at modifications of a broken system to make it better vs. true reform. The system needs to be rebuilt simply because it is based on profit.

There are a few things about which money should have NO connection whatsoever: One of these is medical/dental treatment.

[noiretextatique]

22. i suppose that's true

seems a no brainer to me, but many have been intoxicated by free market propaganda. i totally agree with you...profit and health care do not mix.

[John Q. Citizen]

7. yes, i would prefer they spend their money fighting reform also. They could start by

running a nationwide TV campaign that distorts facts, muddies the waters, and puts Senators who might support reform on the defensive.

Yes, Hepburn that would be great, wouldn't it?

And then, if wishes were fishes, why we'd have a fish fry! A free fish fry! (But no for profit fisher people allowed. only those who sell their fish at zero profit.)

/sarcasm

[RaleighNCDUer]

24. health is not a commodity.

Yet the health insurance industry will continue to present it as one, reforms or no.

We have two choices - 1) fight the health insurance industry; or 2) preemptively give in, accept their argument without a fight.

Which is going to reform the system?

[John Q. Citizen]

31. I have been working since 1990 for a tax based single payer fee for service system to

pay for health care.

From 1990 until 1993 I canvassed full time 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year knocking on doors raising money and signing up members to work on health care reform.

I don't see our choices as only black or white, and as only binary.

It would be as if bush told us our options on Iran is to fight them, or preemptively give in without a fight. I don't buy it.


Have you read the Baucus principles?

They are an outline. Just as the Medicare for All Act is an outline. There are no numbers either as monies taken into the system or of what's covered and what isn't, reimbursement rates, etc. this is the same for both the current Baucus outline and for the HCAA. So it's not a matter of just simply supporting the HCAA and declaring victory if it passes. There are going to be fights, questions, decisions and policy to be worked out for quite a while. We didn't get here over night and if we tried to switch it all over night we will fail and fail miserably.

Many of the largest health insurance companies are not for profits, such as the Blues (Blue Cross/Blue Shield) Kaiser Permanente, Are they OK, or not? Are they the enemy? Or not?

If we declare a fight to the death, either it's us or the health insurance industry and there is no room for anything except total failure or total victory, I'm afraid the outcome might not be what people would want or expect.

Even in Canada there is still a small health insurance industry that deals mostly with dental, increased coverages for vision, travel health insurance, and stuff like private hospital rooms, long term nursing care, and things not covered by one provincial plan or another.

They of course are miles ahead of us because they do have a system instead of the anarchy that is health care in the US. but that's my point. It's almost first most important to have a system than to have a perfect system. Perfect requires time and experience.

All I'm saying is lets do reform based on facts figures and outcomes rather than the fact that as normal humans we all loathe the insurance industry (and believe me we do, the doors don't lie)Let's get healthcare for us, not get health care to punish the insurance industry. It will be better in the end.

[RaleighNCDUer]

36. Oh, you mean THESE non-profits?

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/2004-09-29-nonprofit-salaries_x.htm

Yeah, I know it's an old article - I'm sure they've changed there ways in the past 4 years.

SOMEBODY is making a fucking profit here.

And THESE are the GOOD GUYS.

It is the insurance companies that are DRIVING the increased costs - if the 'for profits' are worse than the 'not for profits' it is only a matter of degree. We still have insurance companies making medical decisions. We still have 48 million people who can't afford insurance, which increases the insurance costs of those of us who have insurance.

I want to see the insurance industry shrunk down small enough to drown it in a bathtub.

[dgibby]

9. Somebody else said it better than I could, but we should

reframe the message. It's not health care reform. It's health insurance reform.

[Hepburn]

10. Yep....

...the insurance companies MUST go. PERIOD.

[redqueen]

11. Call today.

Details at the link in my sig.

[Hepburn]

13. Thank you, redqueen!

I am getting the info and getting to the phone!

:hi:

[Hepburn]

12. What I am hearing is TOTAL bullshit....

...saving costs is NOT the issue: The reason it is NOT affordable is because the fucking evil giant insurance companies.

They are gonna cut costs? GMAFB...they need to get a totally different system WITHOUT the insurance giants.

Fuck them....they caused the problem with their for-profit movtives by doing such things as raping the assets of cancer patients to get treatment, they need not be involved in what must be a people-centered system.

:mad:

[John Q. Citizen]

17. Your approach to HC reform reminds me of the bush administrations approach to nuclear disarmament

"Don't Ever Talk To The Enemy!"

how did that work for bush?

[Hepburn]

20. ...

...:eyes:

Your message is duly noted...and ignored.

[John Q. Citizen]

29. Only praise and adulation allowed? Makes for a rather echo chamber effect, doesn't it?

[Hepburn]

45. Dear JQ....

...it's the old story of the two moms at the Vets Day Parade. One had a son, Johnny, in a unit which was marching in the parade. The unit comes along, passes, and Johnny is stumbling all over the place and tripping people. The mother of Johnny looks at the other mom and says, "See that? Everyone was out of step but my Johnny."

Hint: It is NOT and issue of prasie and adolation ~~ it is an issue of one of us being out of step. All I can say on that point is: "Hello, Johnny...."

Now, can we take the BS personal comments elsewhere and concentrate on the issue at hand?

TIA...:hi:

[John Q. Citizen]

54. i think there are a lot of people here who support talks with opponents. Some don't though

I'm just glad that a major Union with a long history of supporting fundamental health care reform and the Public Option was a major coalition member at the White house today.

Your anger and outrage about that is your own, your constitutional right, and I hope it works for you. I hope it gets you what you want.

[kaygore]

15. Non-profit doesn't mean that executives aren't paid huge salaries and benefits

We need single payer national health acre...period!

[harun]

40. Agree but Unitedhealth made 6.4 BILLION in PROFIT

last year.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=UNH

I can live with a few exec's making a million a year compared to people paying in 6.4 billion worth of pure profit that did nothing at all to help anyone get care.

Heck they fleece people so bad they even manage to pay a dividend.

[onenote]

42. gross profit is not necessarily the best measure

of a company's finances. Ford Motor had a gross profit of 19.17 billion and while its healthier than some of its competitors, its not exactly running the table. Home Depot -- another company hit by the recession -- still managed to report gross profit of $23.99 billion.

[Raineyb]

44. Their net income was nearly 3 Billion dollars. They aren't hurting at all.

And every penny of that nearly 3 billion is money that is not going to take care of people.

Let's face it, health insurance companies make money denying care to the people who pay them for the insurance in the first place.

These companies are only interested in their revenue stream. They have no business in a discussion about how to make sure everyone gets health care

Regards

[harun]

56. Face it their job and responsibility to their shareholders is to make money. The

more care you don't pay for the more money you make.

Everyone has known this since day one. Even when Richard Nixon's aid was describing to him the industry way back in the day (the clip is in Sicko), they made this exact point. They have every incentive to pay for as little care as possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QkgUkM0o6Q

[Kansas Wyatt]

16. For Christ's sake....

There has got to be someone, who knows and has access to President Obama, that can get the message from the American People to him.

It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to figure out that the scum who have caused the problem are not the ones to fix it. They had their chances over and over again, but they proved that they could not be trusted at all.

[salguine]

18. For-profit health care providers should not be involved in providing health care, period.

[annabanana]

19. Blatant conflict of interest there.. . . . n/t

[Hepburn]

23. Oh, yeah....

...and not for the present only ~~ but also for the future. You know they have to have stock and stock options in their employment portfolios. Insurance companies are the wealthiest businesses in the U.S.A. So, they are sure as hell gonna protect their future financial asses as well. This is while parents are begging for cancer treatments for their dying children.

These cold-hearted bastards do not want one red cent spent on ANYTHING that they can block because it puts more money in their scummy pockets.

:grr: Fuck 'em, fuck 'em all. Health care should NOT be connected to profit in any manner whatsoever!

[AtomicKitten]

25. The private sector is launching a preemptive knee-capping of a potential public option.

I'm calling bullshit on that. Private health insurance companies need to be extracted from the loop entirely. And Democrats in Congress (like Ben Nelson and the Blue Dogs) need to stop protecting the private sector.

[Hepburn]

26. A-fucking-men....

...like I said ~~ fox guarding the hen house.

This seems so obvious...why the hell are some not getting that involving the insurance thieves in a system that made them wealthy is NOT in the best interests of the public?

:shrug:

[AtomicKitten]

30. Apparently Krugman comes down on the side of the fox and not the hens.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/11/paul-krugman-health-care_n_201431.html

:scared:

New York Times columnist Paul Krugman notes today that one of the groups involved is a descendant of the lobbyists that helped kill health care reform with "Harry and Louise." Krugman says he's wary of the shift -- he thinks industry groups will use good will created by this move to try to kill a public health plan backed by progressives). Still, he calls today's developments "some of the best policy news I've heard in a long time."

excerpt:

The fact that the medical-industrial complex is trying to shape health care reform rather than block it is a tremendously good omen. It looks as if America may finally get what every other advanced country already has: a system that guarantees essential health care to all its citizens.

And serious cost control would change everything, not just for health care, but for America's fiscal future. As Orszag has emphasized, rising health care costs are the main reason long-run budget projections look so grim. Slow the rate at which those costs rise, and the future will look far brighter. I still won't count my health care chickens until they're hatched. But this is some of the best policy news I've heard in a long time.

[John Q. Citizen]

32. Except that SEIU has been one of the strogest voices on keeping and expanding the public option.

The potential "public option" is found in the "Baucus principles" his outline for reform. You may recall that Baucus has said that 'single payer isn't what Americans want' yet it's his own product which contains the public option.

I agree with Krugman's analysis on this particular turn of events. I think it bode well that the SEIU Union and a number of heath care industrial complex players are doing this. Not that what they are doing is of such great consequence, but because of what it signifies in terms of the bigger picture.

[AtomicKitten]

34. Except this plan is intended to deep-six a public option.

Even Krugman admits this. This is the path similar to the crap Medicare drug bill that was a gift from BushCo to the pharmaceutical companies vis a vis no competition. It is competition that the private sector seeks to avoid with this plan.

Insurance companies need to be taken entirely out of the loop of healthcare.

[John Q. Citizen]

37. Why do you assume that the objectives of each member of the coalition

(SEIU, the insurance cos, the equipment suppliers, the big pharma, and the Doctors are identical?

My assumption is that they all want a voice, a place at the table, but that their individual objectives may be quite varied.


While I assume that most insurance Companies oppose the public option, I also know for a fact that the Union has publicly endorsed the Public Option. They did that last January right after Baucus published his Health Care Principles" outline that contained the idea for a public option.

[AtomicKitten]

38. I did not comment on individual opinion but rather the intent of this plan.

And that is to stymie competition. Even Krugman admits concern that the intent of the plan is to kill a public option.

It's all about competition in that the private sector doesn't want any.

According to Ben Nelson, Blue Dog Democrat and defender of the private sector at the expense of the common good:

According to Congressional Quarterly, Sen. Ben Nelson (D-NE) will oppose any effort to create a public health insurance program as part of a universal health care plan because such a public plan "would be too attractive and would hurt the private insurance plans." Nelson specifically said he's worried that if consumers are given a choice between a public or private plan, "the public plan wins the game" - which we are supposed to believe is a terrible, awful thing.

http://www.openleft.com/diary/13157/in-opposing-public-health-care-option-ben-nelson-admits-govt-health-care-is-great

[John Q. Citizen]

41. Nelson is wrong, IMHO. But what that has to do with SEIU is they say he's wrong as well.

And they were at that meeting today, as a coalition member.

What plan are your referring to? do you mean the pledge by various members of the coalition to cut health care costs by 1.5 % over the next ten years?


Man, I'd take that to the Repos in congress and say, see, health care reform just got cheaper by 2 trillion dollars. We have the money we need to get er done!

[Fireweed247]

27. yes

:applause:

[Sgent]

28. Who should we invite to the table?

I don't see anyone in healthcare not being "for profit".

Even the nursing assistants are getting paid for their participation in healthcare. Maybe the Shriner's should develop our system?

[leftstreet]

39. Uh...We the People would be a good start

For starters, we're not being represented.

Not to mention the many groups supporting single payer.

:shrug:

[Hepburn]

49. Non-profit does NOT mean that the health care workers are not paid.

It means that the motivation is patient care ~~ what a refreshing idea ~~ and not gigantic profits for investors and execs of THE FUCKING HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANIES and GIANTS.

Matter of fact, I would hope that they have training programs and raises for NAs ~~ they are usually, along with the orderlies, the workers who have the most patient contact. Often these are the nicest, kindest persons a patient sees.

JMHo

[Stinky The Clown]

33. Oh look ..... picture threads!

:::::swooooon:::::

Happy faces :)

Woooppppeeeee :)

[KamaAina]

35. Yeah! My new favorite DUer! Go get 'em!

What is your preferred alternative? Something like H.R. 676 ("Medicare for All")?

Of course, being in Cali, you may know that nonprofit != best interest of the patient; see under Kaiser Permanente Health Plan.

[Hepburn]

46. Don't get me started on KKKaiser....

...I cannot believe what the hell their contracts contain. Here is an outstanding example:

My best gal pal was engaged to a wonderful man. He went to KKKaiser for a routine check up. KKKaiser missed a treatable cancerous tumor in his lung ~~ which tumor was small and most likely was curable and readily apparent on the x-ray. Eighteen months later, he died of cancer which had gone to his brain. It was a horrible, awful death. My best gal pal nursed him all through this last illness ~~ and it nearly killed her in many ways.

So the end result on this med mal case: When one signs up for KKKaiser....one must waive one's right to a real law suit. One must submit EVERYTHING to a three person arbitration panel ~~ no law suits allowed. Guess who picks ALL three arbitrators?

Need I say more?

:grr:

And...thanks for the compliment. Until today, I thought the only person who had me as a fav DUer was my Scottie! But then, I bribed her with a mini-Sirloin burger to say that!

:evilgrin:

[KamaAina]

48. "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog..."

Until today, I thought the only person who had me as a fav DUer was my Scottie!



edit: header

[Hepburn]

50. LOL....

...don't get my Scottie, Maggie, started. She is already agitating for a TV in her room...next would be a computer!

:evilgrin:

PS: Her fav video of the moment is Bolt. :hi:

[KamaAina]

51. Whoa! Cosmic!

...don't get my Scottie, Maggie, started.

I'm pretty sure my Mom's first dog's name was Maggie!! I'll ask during our weekly call Sunday.

[Hepburn]

53. At the dog park in Redondo, there are three female Scotties...

...all are named Maggie!

[Faryn Balyncd]

43. K&R..The enemy of reform is not "opposition to reform"..The enemy of reform is Pseudo"Reform" - -::

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5633429&mesg_id=5633429





:kick:

[Hepburn]

47. Exactly!

Great way to illustrate the point ~~ it's just merely PRETEND reform. Like throwing bread crumbs to to the starving and letting them think that fresh bread and butter comes next!

:hi:

[Hepburn]

52. Oh, for joy....the insurance companies agree to Obama's plan...VOLUNTARILY!

Accountability: Why we need a public health insurance option

You've seen the news. The insurance industry has offered a pledge to President Obama to reduce health care costs by $2 trillion over 10 years. Sounds great, right? Only one problem - this is a voluntary agreement. We need the public health insurance ...

http://www.theseminal.com/2009/05/11/accountability-why-we-need-a-public-health-insurance-option/

Jesus H. Fucking Christ....now ONLY did we invite the fox into the hen house, we allowed him in cuz we think he can play nice with us!

:puke:

VOLUNTARILY??????? Sure...right....:eyes:

[Fireweed247]

55. kick

:kick:

[Mnemosyne]

57. Agree. n/t

[pleah]

58. K&R

[LWolf]

59. That's a no-brainer.

What does that say about the brains, and perhaps the agenda, of those determining who gets a seat at the table?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

60. This is the same bullshit that the Shrub admin did when it came to energy policies, etc.

[AngryAmish]

61. Who are for-profit health care providers?

Should doctors be part of this - because most of them work for for-profit entities?

Large hospital groups? In Chicago most of the large hospitals are technically non-profit yet funnel huge amounts of money to insiders (and get to skip paying taxes - a nice touch).

Much of medicine is done by non-profits in name only. Do Catholic hospitals charge less because of their charity mission? When you stop laughing at that one you should agree with me that excluding for-profits makes no sense at all.

[Hepburn]

62. Insurance companies are the ones who are most motivated by...

...profiting from the ill and injured.

They need not be involved....PERIOD. They are the problem and not part of the solution. Same with the big pharmas.

JMHO

Getting paid to do a job is being employed, whether one is in the medical field or not. Profitting off the suffering and denying coverage to profit more ~~ those are the vultures who MUST go.

[Fireweed247]

63. kick

:kick: