Hersh: Children sodomized at Abu Ghraib, on tape

[StopTheNeoCons]

K&R if you are ready to prosecute torturers NOW......

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2004/07/15/hersh/

At the start of the transcript here, you can see how Hersh was struggling over what he should say:
"Debating about it, ummm ... Some of the worst things that happened you don't know about, okay? Videos, um, there are women there. Some of you may have read that they were passing letters out, communications out to their men. This is at Abu Ghraib ... The women were passing messages out saying 'Please come and kill me, because of what's happened' and basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. And the worst above all of that is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror. It's going to come out."

[Manifestor_of_Light]

1. When? He talked about that several years ago.

[ThomWV]

2. K&R - these rumors have been circulating far too long - release the photos

And then let's go out and start arresting people.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

50. where are the photos?

[bdamomma]

97. probably in Cheney's and Rummy's possession.

horrible crimes were committed in our names, it is time or way past the time to get these thugs in jail.

[Swagman]

106. this saved lives according to Cheney..maybe he can explain just how

[bdamomma]

109. yea, under oath in a court of law.

[erebusman]

110. at what cost ...

Lets say for arguments sake that one of these acts saved 'lives' ... at what cost though?

How many people will that poor child grow up to kill? How much will he hate us?

How many people will hear about what happened to those children and be so enraged at us that they themselves will pick up arms against our troops over there ? Never mind consider joining some attack against us?

At what cost was this done? We can't answer that fully, but I fear it will be some horrible cost that far outweighs the benefits.

Is saving a life justification for every possible evil act you can commit? I think I can safely say here on DU that the answer to that is no.

[jhrobbins]

131. And not just those children, erebusman; torture has a ripple effect

it expands into the community at large and then greater regions until everyone knows what we did, how we did it and that is when the numbers of people that hate us becomes legion and the ramifications of the torture begin.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

174. We are tarnished by their actions

[butterfly77]

156. When we first heard about it a few years ago..

they had some type of meeting where all of the senators went in to see the pictures and they decided back then we couldn't see them...

[Rosa Luxemburg]

173. perhaps the Senators owe the public the truth

Senators simply can't cover this thing up

[Matariki]

61. Dear god no. No photos of children being raped

JUSTICE and accountability YES.

[MrsBrady]

69. i think if the photos were passed around, that would be illegal.

it's illegal to show the pictures (if there are any)
I DON'T WANT ANY PART OF THAT...I'm just saying it's illegal.
So I don't know how they would deal with this, if there are actually pictures.

[Liberty Belle]

75. Faces could be obscured. I think it would be legal for a news organization

to publish them then, though I am not a lawyer.

The audiotape alone, with a description of the photos that a station can't publish or chooses not to air, would be enough to fuel some long-overdue public outrage.

[Enthusiast]

79. The photos would

bring public outrage to the level it should be. Photos or not, it happened. And Dick Cheney is on TV telling us this action kept us safe. What an outrageous claim that rape kept us safe! This is an absurd claim! No photos? Photos should be top priority.

[Matariki]

128. I would HOPE that if this was ackowledged as being true it would be enough -

to bring about extreme public outrage. Without photos. For some sick people those photos would serve as pornography - and I fear that images like that made public may have the unfortunate effect of desensitizing the public to the absolute horror of what has been done in our name.

But perhaps you are right. Maybe it would take something this extreme to rouse the public from its apathy. I hope not though.

[alllyingwhores]

139. This information has been out there for several years...

...for anyone willing to look beyond their favorite corporate news channel...and, it's definitely been available for the Dems for as many years including our leader for change and hope.

So...WTF, let's hope Obama will change and actually F__KING DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT AND ACTUALLY HOLD THESE F__KING SADISTIC CRIMINALS ACCOUNTABLE FOR F__KING SOMETHING, ANYTHING!!

[Matariki]

147. Yes, but it's been in the realm of rumor. It could be officially confirmed without photos

Or the MSM could be pursuing the facts.

[defendandprotect]

162. No -- all of this has to be released for public to see what has been done . . .

in our name --

ADDITIONALLY, do you really think that had someone described the non-life-threatening

TORTURE we've seen in photos -- men believing they were attached to electric wires while

standing on a box, vicious dogs sicced on naked prisoners, bleeding prisoners after being

bitten by dogs, forcing prisoners to immitate homosexual acts --

prisoners sitting on planes in diapers -- prisoners covered in their own excretement --

that it would have been sufficient to have merely heard about it?????



And all that we still haven't seen and will never -- prisoners in stress positions --

prisoners with their heads slammed into walls -- prisoners who genitals were cut with

razor blades -- and heavens knows what other torture over waterboarding ---

waterboard 183 times . . . !!!!

NO . . . WE HAVE TO ALL WITNESS THESE PHOTOS AND VIDEOS AS GERMANS WERE FORCED TO SEE

THE CONCENTRATION CAMPS AND THE REALITY OF THEM -- THE PRISONERS STILL ALIVE AND THEIR

CONDITION . . .!!!

***************************************************************************************

[truth2power]

100. Yes. Photos of children being raped. Because...

WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE TO MOTIVATE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO ACTION???

What is it going to take to get their attention??


Jeebus H. Christ!!!!!!



edit> Not to denigrate your feelings, Matariki, but somehow the American people MUST face what's been done IN THEIR NAME. <gnashing teeth>

[MNDemNY]

105. Would that be enough?

After all, they were not real, (american) children, just little terrorists.

[truth2power]

114. I fear that you may be correct. My neighbor says

that she doesn't care what is done to "those people" when I express my horror at the torture programs. Of course she fails to consider that the people we've tortured haven't even been tried and convicted of any crime.

This is the same person who complains about "activist judges" and says we should follow the law exactly as written....unless it involves abrogating the law and denying people due process.

P.S. She watches Fuxx News almost exclusively. Color me surprised.

[Matariki]

129. Again, I would hope that knowledge of the crime would be enough to motivate public outrage.

But you may be right. I hope not though - I would lose a lot of faith in the citizens of this country.

[AlbertCat]

155. Like parading German citizens thru the concentration camps.

It would be difficult but might do some "good".

This whole thing is a horrible mess, not an episode of "24" or some video game. It's real.....and it's the Bush Administration's doing.

[defendandprotect]

163. Unfortunately, too many Americans still believe our free press will lead the way . . .!!!

They haven't gotten it yet that we're out here along -- betrayed --

and if we want to stay alive in any sense we had better get movin' . . .

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

145. Justice and accountability, yes. Photos, not something I want

either. Rumsfeld in chains is the photo I want to see.

[NikolaC]

170. I Agree With You

It's enough to know the hell that those children were put through. If those pictures exist, they should be used for the criminal prosecutions that needs to take place, not for public viewing. It horrifies me that they put those kids through that, there is no justification for the rape of a child, NONE. There needs to be accountability and those bastards need to go to prison for what they have condoned and/or done.

[L0oniX]

118. ...

[noiretextatique]

3. raping children is a vital tool in our fight against terrorism

:sarcasm: i can see darth defending that "tactic" all of the teevee.

[ThomWV]

20. and it must be OK because those children gave up vital information that must have saved our troops

Just ask Dick. In a pigs ass ...

[mzmolly]

40. Just more "hazing"?

Horrible beyond words.

[rfranklin]

85. In Rush Limbaugh's world, it's just good fun...

LIke his Viagra fueled weekends in the Dominican Republic.

[Ganja Ninja]

92. When the President does it that means its legal. n/t

:banghead:

[masuki bance]

4. I want to see more on the Cheney hit squads.

[liberalmuse]

5. And yet, a large number of Americans...

voted for Bush for the 2nd time not 4 months later. Isn't that amazing? The torture shit was definitely out months earlier. I'm done with anyone who still supports Bush. They have rape, torture and mass murder on their heads. Not exactly the type of people you want to associate with, eh?

[JDPriestly]

72. The Bush administration denounced the torture in order to get elected.

That was in 2004. Remember, some of those who tortured at Abu Ghraib were tried and sentenced for torturing. The fact that people high up in the Bush administration OK'd the torture did not come out until much, much later.

[Marr]

6. Let's hear these right-wing bastards make excuses for this.

[Echo In Light]

9. This, among the other atrocities/war crimes, is why media debate is limited to waterboarding

[Dinger]

35. This Takes My Breath Away,

in shock. No way in hell we "move forward" past this, no fucking way!

[BelgianMadCow]

107. Yup. Waterboarding compares to the entire torture program like wall st bonuses compare

to robbing taxpayers blind and heaping it on the banks.

Framing, always framing.

:thumbsup:

[demmiblue]

11. Let's hear our own party make excuses for this...

they knew!

[Enthusiast]

81. It's is very unlikely that Democrats

knew that children were being raped in our name. If certain Democrats knew, they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

[snot]

123. I F**ing knew, and it wasn't my JOB to know!

[defendandprotect]

164. Some Democrats saw this sutff years ago, if I recall correctly ....???

[sarah FAILIN]

68. The ones I know are positive it's a scam to make reps look bad.

I don't want to see pics, but it might be the only thing that convinces the fools. They get furious when I tell them it's really true.

[Enthusiast]

80. "It was a few bad apples." nt

[Happyhippychick]

7. I am completely sickened by this. n/t

[bjobotts]

73. Some people will justify torture until they see what fiends were doing this with approval. from the

[demmiblue]

8. They knew this happened...

all of them.

Perhaps this is the reason the Dems...

Edit: know---knew

[Booster]

31. That bothers me also. All of Congress saw these videos and,

even if they were sworn to secrecy. I just don't understand how they could live with themselves knowing and seeing what really happened. In my mind that makes them all accomplices.

[mmonk]

10. My hope is that one day, a generation of Americans will learn

about this and that they are a people of conscience.

[mother earth]

12. We've all known about this despite the fact that it has gone by

unreported in the media. These are war crimes, plain and simple. We cannot go silently when we know these things took place...we cannot go forward without first going backward & prosecuting these crimes. This is America, this is not Hitler's Germany. We must answer for this.

[Baby Snooks]

56. Wrong...

This is Hitler's Germany. And we are all good Germans. I was told I could not call Nancy Pelosi names any more. So I will just say she has been the best German of all. Although Obama, so far, seems to be falling in line as well. So eloquent he was when he took the oath of office. He seems to have forgotten his own words.

Where are the indictments? Where is the referral of the matter to the International Court of Criminal Justice?

I guess Lesley Stahl could ask the same question today of Hillary Clinton that she asked of Madeline Albright 13 years ago except instead of asking if the deaths of 500,000 innocent Iraqi children were worth it she could ask if the rapes of 500,000 innocent Iraqi children were worth it.

Such a shameful nation we are.

[Gregorian]

13. How do we generate outrage where there is little?

Stupid lady shoots an elephant with an arrow and lets it die over night. She probably couldn't care less about the illegal wars and torture. And the Archie Bunkers of America are snoozing or worse yet watching Fox propaganda.

If we haven't seen action in the last six or so years, then we can't expect fireworks at this time. But then I've been surprised before.

I mean, if Berlusconi has an open and shut case, why hasn't a single lawyer taken it on? And it seems that at this point lawyers are about all we've got. The masses with pitchforks are at home without a care in the world.

I shouldn't say "without a care". But I can substitute that with obsessed with their own lives. Making ends meet. Isn't that what it's all about? Don't look outside your own world. Consciousness extends no further than the reach of one's arm.

[Grinchie]

54. There is lots of outrage, but it's under the surface

There are millions of people that have lost faith in the validity of the Government. They have follwed the rules, and have finally realized that they have been milked like a goat by the benevolent Government masters, but in the end, they see themselves being led to slaughter because they no longer produce.

The citizenry gives all the resources they can muster, only to see it eaten up through an overly complicated way of life, where every Corporation is deviously creating new ways to take their money. They are fed up with never being able to get the Insurance policy to cover their obligations without hundreds of man hours of Phone calls, lets, inspections and frustration. They are tired of seeing true inflation in the 15% range, when the Government uses fakery such as Hedonics and substitution to keep the "Official" (Read Phony) Inflation rate lower so they can avoid raising the monthly stipend for 80 year old ladies.

Millions of people know that the entire Government is in on the Fraud, and they have finally realized that the only way to affect these overbloated, Power hungry criminals is to stop handing over our wealth to them. The Government is an ever growing Amoeba, engulfing whatever lies in its path for sustenance. It has no purpose, it only functions in order to feed itself.

It's time to starve the Amoeba that is corrupt self serving Government by starving it of the things it finds most precious -- I willing country full of uneducated, repressed, unhealthy and weak populace that they can mold into whatever resource they wish, and then feed off it.

America will not recover easliy from the damage to industry and job inflicted in the last 40 years, because the trust is gone. It will take a generation before people will want to play the game they wrote the rules for again.

Until the criminal corruption, that lack of justice, and the outright fraudulent monetary system we have in place gets changed, Me, like millions of others want off the bus.

I'll be a subsistance farmer before I will ever work for a wage again. It's that simple. They don't need my money, they'll just print more and make what I have worth less and less and less. Thye'll reinflate the Housing market via Inflation and everyone will think that good times are back, even though the Oranges at the store will cost 5 bucks a piece.

The Government doesn't have a clue about the Blowback that's coming from the population. We are pissed. We want Single Payer Healthcare. We want Bush held accountable for Torture. We want reform of the Corporate laws and hold them accountable for poisoning us and then walking away scott free. If we don't get it, then they don't get the wealth of our labors. Passive resistance on a huge scale is an awesome thing.

[Two Americas]

63. good post

Thanks for that.

[Raksha]

91. Great post, Grinchie...thanks!!!

[TBF]

94. "Passive resistance on a huge scale is an awesome thing."

Exactly what we need to do. Outstanding post.

[Gregorian]

135. You've brought something to light.

I saw this a long time ago. Which is why I got out from under mortgages as quickly as possible, by luck. But by design. And why now I am working toward owning a place with water, and some way of existing. Actually, I have it already. But I want flowing water. But that's not my point.


Your post has a very Grover Norquist sound to it. I don't mean that in an accusatory way. I mean, (crap, I'm writing this all backwards) what you said is true. To an extent, we need to pool our tax our money in order to help the poor, create public good, etc. But above and beyond that, what has happened is that it has begun to turn into a monster. Military research? It's a huge employment agency. Which is fine, unless it's unproductive. Which much of it is. The CIA? We asked for it, by being fearful. Helmet laws? You've got to have a convoluted argument in order to pay agencies to arrest you for not wearing a helmet, or seatbelt. Let alone a highly addictive nicotine versus a harmless cannibis. Bla, bla, bla. But my point is, I saw a similarity between wanting to drown government in a bathtub, and what we're talking about. I don't think it's common ground. But it may be that we're all on the similar page.

It's the same feeling I got reading the Jesse Ventura article on Norm Colman. Someone posted that Ventura never was a "politician". He used his head, not his pocketbook. Or like Rachel Maddow, who was rabid on her radio show (from another post, not my experience), and rather toned down on MSNBC.

Money. It's about the love of money. And power.


There must be a place where people come together and understand and find common ground. And from there a government is formed. We have the Constitution. We have a foundation. But the population has grown, the people have a far greater distance between each other. And our government reflects this.

[defendandprotect]

165. People have not lost faith in government, but in the people in office . . .

Citizens have not been educated as to the vigilance necessary to keep government officials

honest. Weren't you taught in your schools that capitalism and democracy were synonymous???

We had regulations on capitalism/corporations which were overturned -- and WHERE, OH WHERE

are Democrats calling for RE-REGULATION????

We can't change anything until we stop the bribery -- there is new legislation pending

which Common Cause is pushing -- FAIR ELECTIONS NOW ACT -- HR1826 --

Call your Senators and Reps and ask them to PLEDGE TO VOTE FOR IT --

and/or to sponsor it --

Common Cause is trying to get everyone signed to pledges --- my Repug Rep signed one!!!

This is public financing of campaigns ---

The Government doesn't have a clue about the Blowback that's coming from the population. We are pissed. We want Single Payer Healthcare. We want Bush held accountable for Torture. We want reform of the Corporate laws and hold them accountable for poisoning us and then walking away scott free. If we don't get it, then they don't get the wealth of our labors. Passive resistance on a huge scale is an awesome thing.

Agree with you but I don't see anyone out in the streets yet and people continue to support

corporations -- Coke Cola! Wendy's! McDonald's!

[Mind_your_head]

14. AMERICANS MUST FACE THIS

This is NOT a pleasant subject. I turn away from it often ~ I don't click, I "don't want to know"....but I realize that *I don't wamt to know, b/c "if I know" I must DO something about this. I don't know what to do/who to call. WHY DID THIS EVEN HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE????

I'm horrified, yet don't know where/how to seek some justice for these victimized people. The big-league perps just walk around free without any consequence. THAT has GOT-TO-CHANGE!

[Pavulon]

15. I am really sick of his bullshit..Produce (SH) it or or shut the f up

i am still waiting for the Iran oil bourse war. This guy just slings shit on the wall.

[EFerrari]

26. Raped women prisoners sneaking notes out to their families

from Abu Ghraib to come and kill them was how this story got out in the first place. Hersh had nothing to do with that.

[Pavulon]

28. He provides no content. Has a history of fiction

if true people should suffer consequences. However just slinging around unsourced unproved statements does NOTHING to help. Standards in journalism are important. He sets a really low bar.

[Baby Snooks]

58. Abu Ghraib is fiction?

What happened at Abuhraib is not fiction. Much of it already admitted in courtrooms. Just never documented in terms of satisfying those who believe what did happen didn't matter. It did.

And this happened. It just hasn't been documented to your and others' satisfaction.

Maybe you're a Marine and believe all Marines are good guys? Or maybe you were in the Army? Or the Navy? Good guys? Not in this.

I believe it was Marines who went into a house and raped and then murdered a 14 year old girl. Raped her after they murdered her parents and her sister in front of her.

The few, the proud? I get ill just thinking about it. And thinking about those who have continued to find basis to defend it.

[Pavulon]

187. I believe he is convicted

I asked for proof. The way the howlers are acting you would think I was saying he should be dismissed. I am asking for proof. You know what he failed to provide with the oil bourse war he pimped a while back.

Unless you just think it is just ok to put information out with no fact.

[flyarm]

74. bullshit !! Sy Hersh is the journalist who broke the MyLai story

in Vietnam..he is a pulitzer prize winner..

who the fuck do you think you are bullshitting here?????????

[EFerrari]

151. Iirc, he was the first one to report that Rumsfeld knew about

abuse at Abu Ghraib, too. And now the first one to report that the new commanding officer in Afghanistan was part of Cheney's little assassination project as well as someone involved in hdng prisoners and torture. Sy Hersh is the very best.

[Pavulon]

186. You mean the spec forces command in NC, that is his claim

which is complete bullshit. JSOC, yeah that claim is why I dont believe jack shit he says without proof. But you want to be a sucker go for it. I asked for proof and you people start on some past shit he did.

He may have walked on fucking water, if he brings no proof he gets nothing from me. Hey you want to be part of the barnum crew go for it.

[EFerrari]

188. He was right about My Lai. He was right about Abu Ghraib. He was right about Rumsfeld.

That may be hard to take if you live in a belief based world.

[Pavulon]

189. Logical fucking fallacy. No one gets a fucking drop. This is not a joke

you make claims in journalism you back them up with fact. No matter yur track record you prove each story. He was wrong on "stories" as well. You want to believe in someone go to church and pray. I prefer to believe in fact.

Lack of fact checking by the press and pt barnum suckers are why we are in iraq. No free passes to any side or any source.

[EFerrari]

190. Wrong-O. When evaluating a source of information, you bring your experence to bear. n/t

[Pavulon]

191. Yep, when you want to get fucked over you sure do..

every story must meet standards. Named sources or documentation. There is NONE there. Just op ed. Hey you want to wish upon a star, go for it. Lots of good sources towed the line for the invasion.

But hey, selective memory is cool.

[EFerrari]

192. No, that's basic logic. And, all your cursing and all your insults really don't change that.

[Pavulon]

193. No really, it is not basic logic. fucking aristotle covered this..back in the day

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

http://people.eku.edu/williamsf/HON102Web/falsec-web.htm

basically being correct in the past does not guarantee future action or accuracy. but believe anything you want.

[EFerrari]

194. It is by the practical experience of life and conduct that the truth is really tested. -- Aristotle

[Pavulon]

195. Pimp this source all you want. No one gets a free pass from me. I just want fact(nt)

[EFerrari]

196. Neither Sy Hersh nor Aristotle need me to pimp them to anyone.

lol

[Pavulon]

197. Oil bourse and Iraq invasion (WMD ! ACK), happened when press gets ahead of its self..(nt)

[EFerrari]

200. You certainly have a point about the oil bourse.

They were all looking at that instead of just looking closer to home where we were being set up to be fleeced in the simple, old fashioned way by cooked books. That's very true.

As far as WMD, I can't think of a single credible journalist that went for it -- and that should tell you how little I trust them with anything.

[Pavulon]

201. really, it was ALL OVER us media with no one demanding to see proof.

no one demanding sources, no one asking directly what are doing in Iraq and how dies this serve american interest. Again the war is not the fault of the press but it is a common accepted failure within the press community. People write books on the press coverage (or lack of real reporting) leading up to the invasion.

I am open to the story, but require proof.

[Pavulon]

181. You dont get a fucking free spot in press

he is not providing any documentation for this claim. Fine for the enquirer, not for any real press outlet.

He broke the Iran oil bourse war too.

Oh yeah, fuck you. I am not bullshitting anything.

[Echo In Light]

87. You haven't a clue as to who you're talking about, do you?

Unfortunately this is typical of American thinking: desperately attempt to trivialize and downplay the seriousness of the matter when it involved crimes of state.

Run a search on this story and you'll find Sy Hersh isn't lying

[Pavulon]

182. That oil bourse war he pushed, I remember that one

he is not providing information to back his claim. The national enquirer may be hiring. Just like the morons who spout on about the millions dead in iraq with no real numbers trivialize the real impact of war.

This is not a fucking disney movie, you cant wish your happy little ass on a star for some information you want to be true.

Cold fucking proof is required. At least by those of who think.

[defendandprotect]

166. Mai Lai and Abu Ghraib are "fiction" . . .!!!??? Only in the mind of Limbaugh . . .

[Pavulon]

183. He did not break abu graib, the Iran oil bourse war, remember that one..(nt) fact is fucking fact.

[defendandprotect]

202. What difference who "broke" the stories . . .??? Hersh has pursued them . . .!!!

Mai Lai and Abu Graib are fact --

[L0oniX]

120. ...

[Pavulon]

184. Now take one statement by a person here as fact

really? Because he says. Again before we the consumers of media accept information we should be stringent about its sources..

But hey, that is why we are in iraq to begin with.

[defendandprotect]

203. The courts have seen this evidence; the Congress has seen this evidence . . .

it has been proven. That you dislike Hersh doesn't make any of this any less true.

We're in Iraq because of the MIHOP 9/11 - an "inside job" by the fascist Bushco --

with a great deal of help from corporate-press and TPB.

[mistertrickster]

137. I tend to agree in this case. I've been waiting 5 years for this story to break.

If Hersch can prove it, he should prove it. I personally believe that it happened--it fits a pattern of abuse we've seen and explains why insurgents fired mortars into the prison.

But without iron-clad proof, you got nuthin'.

[jwirr]

16. And when it does come out there will not be a single Arab nation that

will want anything to do with us ever again. I suspect that most nations will want a war crimes trial and if we won't do it they will.

[SpiralHawk]

17. Thanks a big stinkin pantload to xCommander AWOL & xVP Dickie 'Five Military Deferments' Cheney

and the other craven, immoral Republicon Homelander chickenhawks who perpetrated these outrages in the name of the United States of America -- and who were egged on by other Republicon chickenhawks like Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Hannity, and Beck.

[jwirr]

23. Absolutely. I would not want to be an American anywhere in that area

after it is released. Military or civilian.

[Chulanowa]

146. Which is exactly why it will never be released

Sadly I think even our current president feels that our continued military presence in the various nations of hte Middle East is of more value than actual justice for the victims of that same military's crimes.

And yes, I said "military's crimes". Let's stop pretending that it was just the fucks within the beltway. The officers and soldiers who knew about, performed, and covered up all of this are every inch as criminal as those who authorized it, and that corruption is fucking SYSTEMIC. The military as a whole bears this burden, even if most individual servicemen and women do not.

[EFerrari]

24. The reports of rape and torture were out in the Arab press

in 2002. That's where the information came from in the first place. They know already even if their officials don't talk about it in the media.

But with the new releases for the benefit of sleepy Americans, the Arab world will have an opportunity to make their outrage known

[Pavulon]

29. Yes the "street"

standard used by some news outlets does not meet the standards of this site or western news outlets. Basically is will can not meet the standards of afp, bbc, or ap wire it is tabloid, at best.

[EFerrari]

30. That's sort of backward. The "street" generated the reports

that resulted in the Taguba investigation and the continuing ICRC investigation.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

122. You actually understood that???? Kudos to you. nt

[EFerrari]

148. It only took me five years. Know what's better? If we nail Bush

and the criminals in his administration it will be because of those scary Muslins -- that were tortured by them. We're owe them, bigtime.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

149. Sorry i was a little vague. The post you replied to above made no damn sense to me

but apparently you were able to figure out what he was trying to say.

"Basically is will can not meet the standards of afp, bbc, or ap wire it is tabloid, at best." :wtf:

[EFerrari]

150. I see! LOL! We're having a little misunderstanding tsunami here.

I watch a daily roundup of news from the Arab world put together by LinkTv. It has a viewpoint but it's in no way less accurate or more "tabloid" than our own Authorized Propaganda. :)

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

152. Thanks for the translation to English. nt

[mmonk]

36. The American Press

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=29031

http://www.atlanticfreepress.com/news/1/8039--toothless-the-watchdog-press-that-became-the-governments-lapdog-.html

[defendandprotect]

167. You're saying our corporate-press has "standards" . . .????

[jwirr]

48. And this is supposed to be on video - more powerful than knowing

IMO. Seeing, hearing, witnessing.

[Bluenorthwest]

18. Rape and murder is a given at Abu

Many officials have testified to that. There is no question of that.

[Divine Discontent]

19. we've heard this for over 5 years, right? if it's true & would come out, it'd get arrests rolling

rather quickly... maybe that's the delay. if it's there - get it released to members of a select Congressional committee to view for evidence with psychologists around to help them deal with watching it, so the Congress can arrest the fuckers! oh, and the fuckers behind it all.

[Mind_your_head]

25. Don't be a fool. "Congress" is entwined in this travesty!

THE PEOPLE (of the united states) have to rise up and DEMAND JUSTICE. That's all that is reasonably available at this point.

[cali]

32. not gonna happen. nothing reasonable about your post

not when the majority of Americans support torture. and no, not all members of Congress are entwined in this.

[Lorien]

33. Prove that the majority of Americans support torture.

and the poster didn't say "every member of congress".

[glitch]

21. K & R if you wanted to prosecute the torturers THEN... and every moment since. nt

[msongs]

22. onward christian soldiers, indeed nt

[redqueen]

27. This is why they're hoping against hope

that they can somehow intimidate Dems into not investigating.

[Usrename]

34. Pelosi just needs more time to figure this stuff out.

She doesn' quite know what to do. Little kids tortured on the approval of a lawyer who is now a federal judge.

What should she do? I wonder, is it really all that complicated?

She could start impeachment proceedings against Bybee tonight if she wanted to.

She must take action or she must recuse herself from this whole issue.

She controls the agenda in the House. Only she can do something about Bybee.

[BeHereNow]

38. Pelosi and others are complicent in the cover up of this story.

I say we package them all as voo-doo dolls complete with
pins to do that voodoo that we do so well.
And let us NOT forget Sibel's testimony to the congress...
WTF is up with THAT?????
BHN

[KoKo]

46. BHN....I don't think that Pelosi is as complicit....wait to see it play out.

The timelines and what certain members were told seem to differ. We don't know who was told what...and I see the RW too gleeful over Pelosi. I've never been a fan of Pelosi...but I'd go for the Senate over Pelosi and her House Members. The Senate under Daschle and now Reid have thwarted the Houses passage of bills getting through the Senate at every opportunity.

Pelosi is an easy target because she seems so clueless. It's possible that she's just the "figurehead." I'd go for those who run her (Steney Hoyer) but more to the Senators who were briefed.

[Usrename]

84. What is she doing today? Right now?

She is the only one who can initiate impeachment proceedings against Bybee, for example. She controls the agenda in the House.

She could take affirmative steps to provide some justice for the victims. She has a moral and legal responsiblity to act.

Pelosi, as Speaker, has certain duties that are required under the Convention Against Torture, duties that she is being derelict in performing.

Failure to perform her duty may be considere a separate criminal act. She should either recuse herself or do something constructive. She should not continue on the course she is on. She is obstructing the proper resolution of the whole torture issue, and she will be on the wrong side of history until she either takes some positive actions or gets out of the way so that others can do so.

Her conduct TODAY, right now, is what is in question. Not something that happened years ago. Surely now she knows that there is a "reasonable ground to believe that an act of torture has been committed" and as a "competent authority" in the legislature she is required to respond.

She cannot be allowed to continue to thwart the proper resolution of this issue. She cannot be allowed to take "impeachment off the table" for Judge Bybee.

[Kansas Wyatt]

37. So how will the Party of God justify their actions on this?

Or will they just throw up another diversion tantrum to ignore it and block it out of sight?

More than likely, it will go like this: 'Well that Bush had us all fooled, because he wasn't completely honest with us and we didn't know what he was doing. The important thing is that he is not President anymore, and we can work on keeping the liberal commies from making sure the rest of the world hates us and from destroying this country.'

Never mind the fact that these republican underlings made damn sure that they licked Bush's ass squeaky clean, when it could have been stopped. But oh no, they don't want to talk about that, because they were allegedly "lied to" too, even though the smell of shit was permeating from them. They were "lied to," so that is why they marched in lock-step and voted for Bush again in 2004.

[BeHereNow]

39. They simply can't, therefore the cover up.

They are complicent- dems and repukes alike.
RIP those who have been murdered by the BFEE to hide
the facts.
BHN

[mzmolly]

41. Of course we should prosecute anyone who engaged in such

abhorrent behavior.

Was this kind of "enhanced interrogation method" authorized/signed off on, by Bush?

[CoffeeCat]

42. I remember when this information came out...

There were tapes that our Senators and Congress members saw. Those tapes were not for media eyes, but
our elected officials saw them. These tapes supposedly revealed "other stuff" that happened at Abu Ghriab. They
released some stuff--the Lindsay England stuff, the dog pictures, the hooded guy hooked up to electrical wires, etc.
The stuff that Hersch is speaking about is supposedly the rest of the story. I remember that many of the our elected
officials who saw these tapes and pictures--expressed shock about what they had seen, and many of them looked stricken.

Then there was some legal wrangling and the tapes were supposed to be released. Nothing happened. America forgot.

Now, Hersch is talking about this again. For God's sakes, if we raped women and children and it's on tape, this stuff HAS TO come out.

It must!!

WE THE PEOPLE RUN THIS NATION!!!! THOSE ELECTED OFFICIALS WHO ***SAW*** THESE TAPES WORK FOR US!!!!

THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO KEEP THIS FROM US!!!!!

HOW CAN WE RISE UP AND FIGHT THIS IF WE ARE KEPT IN THE DARK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED?

RELEASE. THE. TAPES.

[jwirr]

51. First of all we need to sue under the information act to get the tapes

released. I do not know if anyone has done that yet.

[CoffeeCat]

55. And where are the victims now??

Where are these children and these women???

Someone needs to find them.

They deserve justice.

[bdamomma]

99. Damn them all to keep this horrific evidence kept away from us.

for some strange reason they (the Congress) think the American people are a bunch of wusses who cannot take the truth, what makes them think this, or maybe they do not want a full blown riot take place, all the crap they hide away from us, this is our country.

[DangerousRhythm]

43. This is simply horrific.

I can't even imagine... WTF. The story of that poor female soldier who killed herself... if THIS is the sort of stuff that was going on, I sadly can't say I'm surprised. What a horror!

[Jennicut]

53. The soilder killing herself over something like this I could see.

I want the full tapes released. We need to know the full truth. I think Dick is actually afraid, that is why he is trying so hard to make it seem like torture was worth it.

[bdamomma]

101. ole Dick is crazy as a fox, and is trying to say to everyone

that with torture practices we were kept safe, what kind of BS is that, and I hate when they referred to keeping us safe, like we are 2 year olds. What about keeping the Constitution safe which they shredded to pieces. just ranting...........sigh

[mitchtv]

that's an old story

I'm ready for them to release the pictures AND tapes

[KoKo]

45. The time was not right for releasing...but we are getting closer...

When Hersh reported he knew it was not the time....

Drip...Drip...Drip...

He's got it or access to those who have it. That's why Cheney is out there bloviating. He knows.

[mitchtv]

49. remember the DC Madame?

Her book went to ABC and down the memory hole. I still occasionally squawk about the pics, but had started to forget. Let's hope the make the net, hopefully while Cheney is on the stand!

[closeupready]

52. As I recall, this was first reported in 2004.

Nothing ever came of it. If that wasn't the right time, then when is.

Further, justice delayed (for these raped children) is certainly justice denied. A double shame on Hersh for sitting on this.

[snot]

175. yeah, like, the statute of limitations hasn't run out yet?

like it already has on some other Bush admin crimes.

[L0oniX]

121. Indeed. This little tid bit goes back to Jan 04...

[mitchtv]

44. that's an old story

I'm ready for them to release the pictures AND tapes

[Quantess]

47. Even though this is unsubstantiated so far,

I would be surprised if it were not true.

[Blackhatjack]

57. I'll never forget Sen Lindsay Graham's face & comments after seeing the pics/videos...

... he stated it was a lot worse than you could imagine. I can't recall the other Sen being interviewed with him, but IIRC they said it involved murder. These are Republicans who were visibly shaken by what they saw.

I'll see if I can dig it up.

But this would explain why they have refused to comply with court orders to turn over all the pics and videos. Many have said they can never be released --presumably because of the outrage that would cause outside the country against the US, and its troops.

Here is a link to text describing the event:

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001218842


"Last year a Republican senator conceded that they contained scenes of "rape and murder" and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said they included acts that were "blatantly sadistic."

SKIP

"What is shown on the photographs and videos from Abu Ghraib prison that the Pentagon has blocked from release? One clue: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress last year, after viewing a large cache of unreleased images, "I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe." They show acts "that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he added.

A Republican Senator suggested the same day they contained scenes of "rape and murder." Rumsfeld then commented, "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse."

MORE

[DangerousRhythm]

83. I keep hearing about their faces and it's bizarre to me...

Mainly because I'd never really heard of this before. Is there any video of them coming out from whatever chamber they watched this stuff in? I really want to look at their faces myself, just so I can know personally, as well as I can anyway. I don't want to believe this is true but I know it probably is... it's just too much to imagine, merely on a human level. It's so messed up on so many levels though. It's sickening to think about, really, and if it's being covered up -- and it seems it is -- I don't even know how this can be broken, who would be credible enough for the masses to believe, etc. Stating the obvious, this is fucking awful. :(

[bobbolink]

130. YEs, it's unbelievable. My country do that? THAT'S what we were dealing with in Vietnam!

Discovering just how ugly our country truly is.

That's why so many of us got so depressed.

"Stating the obvious, this is fucking awful"

Indeed. And some of us have been down this road before, and it doesn't get any better.

THE LESSON IS... IF WE DON'T PUSH FOR THIS, THE NEXT GENERATION WILL FACE THE SAME DEPRESSION!

[bdamomma]

102. Matters worse??? for who Rummy??? You?

I hate these people:mad:

[muryan]

59. Prove it or shut up

This is an issue that would require no debate. Either it didn't happen and sy is off his meds, or it did and the scum should spent the rest of their lives in leavenworth.

[Oilwellian]

62. Ever heard of the Taguba Report? n/t

[SmileyRose]

86. I don't agree with you

if this happened and can be proven, they should not be tried and sentenced in the US. Their crimes were against the people of Iraq. They should be tried and sentenced there under Iraqi law. Just my opinion.

[Oilwellian]

60. The ACLU sued for the release of these videos and additional photos

New Abu Ghraib Photos Confirm Need For Independent Counsel, NYCLU Says

The NYCLU and ACLU have been in the courts since 2003 seeking the release of photos, video, and other evidence of abuse. To date, almost 90,000 pages of government documents have been released in response to the ACLU's Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit. The documents have exposed the US government's indiscriminate use of harsh interrogation tactics, abuse, and torture in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantánamo Bay.

"The public has a right to know the full truth about the treatment of detainees not just in Abu Ghraib but elsewhere in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantánamo Bay," said ACLU attorney Amrit Singh. "Instead of continuing to deny the widespread abuse, the government must hold relevant officials accountable for this abuse."

The lawsuit on the release of photos is now before the Second Circuit Court of Appeals. Oral arguments have not yet been scheduled. The Defense Department has agreed to finish processing all remaining documents relating to detainee abuse, including images depicting abuse at facilities other than Abu Ghraib, by June 15.

http://www.nyclu.org/node/488


Federal Court Orders Government to Turn Over Videos and Photos Showing Detainee Abuse (6/2/2005)


NEW YORK -- A federal judge has ordered the Defense Department to turn over dozens of photographs and four movies depicting detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq as part of an ongoing lawsuit brought by the American Civil Liberties Union.

"These images may be ugly and shocking, but they depict how the torture was more than the actions of a few rogue soldiers," said Anthony D. Romero, Executive Director of the ACLU. "The American public deserves to know what is being done in our name. Perhaps after these and other photos are forced into the light of day, the government will at long last appoint an outside special counsel to investigate the torture and abuse of detainees."

The court order came in response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed by the ACLU, the New York Civil Liberties Union and the Center for Constitutional Rights to obtain documents and materials pertaining to the treatment of detainees held by American forces in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantánamo Bay.

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/17637prs20050602.html

Torture at Abu Ghraib

(snip)
A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not meant for public release, was completed in late February. Its conclusions about the institutional failures of the Army prison system were devastating. Specifically, Taguba found that between October and December of 2003 there were numerous instances of “sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses” at Abu Ghraib. This systematic and illegal abuse of detainees, Taguba reported, was perpetrated by soldiers of the 372nd Military Police Company, and also by members of the American intelligence community. (The 372nd was attached to the 320th M.P. Battalion, which reported to Karpinski’s brigade headquarters.) Taguba’s report listed some of the wrongdoing:

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

There was stunning evidence to support the allegations, Taguba added—“detailed witness statements and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence.” Photographs and videos taken by the soldiers as the abuses were happening were not included in his report, Taguba said, because of their “extremely sensitive nature.”

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/05/10/040510fa_fact

[Echo In Light]

95. This should have its own thread

[shellgame26]

64. NOTHING TO SEE HERE..MOVE ALONG

What's the matter with you people? Don't you know the manufactured media outrage of the week is Wanda Sykes comedy routine??? And last week it was Obama's mustard obsession??? C'mon people! OBEY

[earth mom]

178. Don't forget the FLU is gonna get ya! Yep, terra & b.s are everywhere. While Truth & Justice

are no where to be found.

[Mnemosyne]

65. Republican "Family Values" for Iraqis. War criminals. knr n/t

[Seldona]

66. This has been out for at least a couple years.

I've often read about the little room in the Capitol building with 24 hour guard that houses the materials recovered from their investigations into what happened over there. I've read that a person could be charged with serious crimes for even possessing much of this material, and I am not talking about for stealing it either.

I believe Rumsfeld's main response, other than to charge the lowest level staff, was to ban cameras and cell phones with them actually.

I wonder how many Joseph Mengeles we have out there? You can't tell me the doctors and bureaucrats involved in these crimes against humanity weren't studying every case in great detail as it came through. Doesn't seem very scientific, or how a bureaucrat would react, once they have made the decision to torture to let all that valuable 'data' just go uncollected.

I just hope I live long enough to see all this come out. If we don't prosecute these crimes the next person who comes along will take it that much further. Why not? Just give yourself and everyone involved immunity. Although it's not like it matters that much anyway. It doesn't appear the opposition will do much about it, at least at this point.

[pansypoo53219]

67. why georgee had stop

yapping about saddam's rape rooms.

maybe they get released when we are a the torture tipping point.

[leftstreet]

70. K&R

[DerekJ]

71. Fucking monsters, Fucking monsters, Fucking monsters,Fucking monsters,Fucking monsters,

Fucking monsters,Fucking monsters,Fucking monsters,Fucking monsters,Fucking monsters,Fucking monsters,Fucking monsters,Fucking monsters,Fucking monsters,Fucking monsters,Fucking monsters,Fucking monsters,Fucking monsters,Fucking monsters,Fucking monsters,Fucking monsters,Fucking monsters.

FUCK FUCK FUCK

[truth2power]

98. I agree. I am sickened by all of this. n/t

[bdamomma]

103. you exactly got it right.

[pjt7]

76. What the F is our Justice Dept

waiting for? prosecute those involved those who gave the orders & changed the laws.

[democrank]

77. Government-sponsored barbarism.

Yet we`re consumed with Obama`s Mustard-Gate,the First Lady`s bare arms and Donald Trump`s beauty queens. Says a lot about our "leaders" and us. Sick.

[Enthusiast]

78. But it was keeping us safe!

:sarcasm: Those that authorized this have got to be punished.

[Smith_3]

82. Who would Jesus sodomize?

[ejbr]

88. If this becomes widespread knowledge and we STILL

do not prosecute, then we deserve whatever hell awaits us.

[Douglas Carpenter]

89. kick and recommended for the truth !!!!

[feslen]

90. but Their God ....

gives them the right to do all sorts of monstrous things!

::sarcasm::

now we know who the real terrorists are, don't we? let's see, fighting an illegal war, entering a foreign country as "conquerers" for nothing more than their oil. Killing innocent people left and right (including our own troops), destroying everything in Iraq--which under the other Dictator had schools, libraries and public services by the way....
how can anyone be mislead by false truths? who knows, I can only shake my head at Bush supporters...and I know a few of them too. those damned assholes have damned us all.

[fasttense]

93. But, but raping small children got us valuable intelligence information.

It saved lives. We need to be able to rape small children because it keeps Americans safe. :sarcasm:

[defendandprotect]

172. GOP "Pro-life" rapists . . ..

[Soylent Brice]

96. .

[bdamomma]

104. kicking this

we won't hear this on our news, unless someone has the balls to report this.

[lostnotforgotten]

108. When The President Fails To Prosecute - Is That Torture As Well?

eom

[stubtoe]

111. Maybe this will finally be enough to stop the cretins who write LTTE's in support of torture.

This needs to hit the MSM fan big time.

[Ilsa]

112. Take out the faces, but the photos have to be released. We need to

bring people to justice over this kind of torture and inhumanity.

[Echo In Light]

115. The WORLD sees all of this clearly, yet much of our citizenry doesn't. Think on that when....

...you hear "patriots" scrambling a-holes and elbows to justify and defend The Homeland.

[defendandprotect]

169. For one reason, Americans have been so propagandized re "democracy" and capitalism . ..

that they shut out all reality and are used to do that -- and, sadly, are very

comfortable doing that -- and many don't want to wake up now!!!

[jaundicedi]

113. We need to

Re-open Spandau and put Bush and Cheney and anyone else involved in it. The world must be shown that THIS IS NOT WHO WE ARE.

[JonathanMeador]

116. Oh. My . God.

Damn liberals: always with this "truth" stuff. In a lot of ways this doesn't surprise me, but in a few ways.... words cannot even describe my disgust ...

[L0oniX]

117. Republican Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld authorized the rape of children in Iraqi prisons...

...in order to humiliate their parents into providing information about the anti-American insurgency.
Example shown below.



This was exposed back in October of 2006 but you can see the date which looks like Jan 04. I take that as Jan 2004. http://journals.democraticunderground.com/L0oniX/7 Scroll to the bottom of the article. The link to this info is dead now and was probably snuffed by the powers that were at the time. Note that there is a reference number which might be traceable if our current government gave a shit about prosecuting the torturers.

[defendandprotect]

171. Thank you -- almost should be a separate thread --- !!!

I saved the link --

[snot]

119. k&r'd

[bamacrat]

124. If this comes out and is true then prosecutions would be a must.

For every reason and all of them soldiers, commander, VPs. I cant, even with my absolute disdain and lack of trust of Bush/Cheney, imagine that anyone would ok raping kids. But a thourough investigation should be held, all should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But if it is known and was known by high ranking gov't officials they should be held accountable.

[alfredo]

125. Hell yes!

[fumsm]

126. Who cares,

It's more important that Carrie fakeboobs is safe. "Republican Christian values are hard at work for you"

[mistertrickster]

127. I actually wish that Sy Hersch hadn't even brought this up.

If he has evidence, he should make a big thing out of it and make it known.

If he doesn't, then he just has to shut up.

Since he hasn't really spoken about this for FIVE YEARS, we have to assume the latter.

[Echo In Light]

132. Why is it that so many moderates in this thread use the "Sy needs to SHUT UP" line?

[mistertrickster]

133. The problem is that he has voluntarily shut up about it. Why let it drop if it's so important?

This just fuels speculation and conspiracy theories.

We need proof, and history shows we need MORE proof than the CONs do to prove our case, given media resistence.

[Echo In Light]

142. He announced this while giving a public talk, and says he's watched the videos. I doubt, however...

...that releasing such data is "up to him."

[bottomtheweaver]

136. I don't trust Hersh and if he has evidence he should release it.

The timing here is suspicious, because it reinforces the idea that Dem leaders had all the information, including these alleged photos, and did nothing. But we don't know if that's true, because we don't know who knew what when, so floating these kinds of claims at this moment seems to me like a political stunt.

Don't forget Hersh is the guy that cooked up "The Dark Side of Camelot" for who knows what purpose.

[bottomtheweaver]

138. p.s. this article is from July 2004, so I guess I can't blame Hersh

for floating this again. However, I do wonder why he never produced more evidence in the interval.

[Echo In Light]

143. Given the establishment wanting to suppress this data, no surprise at all that he's had heat on him

To remain quiet

[defendandprotect]

168. Right, ignore the dangers to reporters like him . .. and many other journalists . . .

there's been war on journalists -- !!! Many of them dead --

Hersh SAW the videos -- he doesn't have them -- the courts were fighting

to get them released.

Supposedly the courts will release them now ---

and it's as necessary for the public to see them as it was for the Germans

to be marched thru the concentration camps!!!

[snot]

177. what more is Sy supposed to do??? he's published this info in the few outlets that will publish it,

and talked about it. Meanwhile, he's also trying to investigate and bring attn to other outrages -- and has been about as successful in doing so as he was on this issue, in that at least a few other people are aware of what he's discovered. It's the rest of us who have let it drop, not him.

[Deep13]

134. I was for prosecuting before prosecuting was cool.

Efforts by defendants to hide this should be taken as a waiver of the statute of limitations.

As noted on Keitho last night, "It worked" is statutorily excluded as a defense.

[bulloney]

140. Will Pat Robertson lump this with bestiality like he did with homosexuality recently?

Where's the outrage, Pat? You are always outraged when you think it incriminates liberals. What about your "friends" on the conservative side? Where in the Bible did Jesus sign off on raping children? You always conveniently find places in the Bible for everything else.

[nocalgirl]

141. Child Abuse

Child abuse not done by Soldiers, Conservatives or Priests...

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-teachers10-2009may10,0,1000273.story

[mistertrickster]

144. Yup. Sometimes teachers do this too. And when they are caught and convicted,

they are sent to prison.

How many people got sent to prison from Abu Ghraib? (besides the scape goated Lindie England)

[AlbertCat]

153. R-E-V-E-N-G-E

One "reason" the torture and abuses got to the point they did is never discussed: Revenge for 9/11. We all know how the Bushies pushed that meme connecting Sadam to 9/11, and we've all seen the pics of stuff like platoons in Iraq spelling out "9-11, NEVER FORGET". Dick Cheney oozes revenge and, to drive home the point, has just dragged under the bus with him Dubya....who also is all about (they went after my daddy) revenge.

And let's also discuss overcompensating for the epic failure of 9/11.(Osama was counting on that!) The Bushies have never been there when we needed them. All the bluster in the universe cannot cover up that fact.

Justified revenge is in every other film outta this country and on TV every night. Americans just love Old Testament Law as much as Muslims and Jews seem to. An eye for an eye is sooooo late stone age!

Uh oh! I brought religion into it!

[winyanstaz]

159. I cannot buy the "revenge for 9-11"

because I do not buy into the "official" story about 9-11.
I don't think these criminals wanted "revenge" for something they did themselves.
I think they just wanted to further the New World Order's agenda..and they did. 9-11 was just the excuse to do so.
Yes I do believe that Congress knew, the Justice Department knew, the main stream media knew and they all chose to try to hide it.
We are on our own as to getting this story out there.

*edited for speeeling :P

[bluestateguy]

154. I would oppose releasing those pictures and videos

They'll just end up in some sicko pedophiles' computer and be passed around the internet, further victimizing the victims.

But by all means this should be prosecuted.

[Joanne98]

157. But but they just did for the photos!!!!

To use as an interrogation tool to keep the country safe. They didn't really enjoy it!

:sarcasm:

[bdamomma]

158. Listening to Randi she said more pictures will be coming out

on May 23rd.

[byronius]

160. What else don't we know...

[defendandprotect]

161. I think some members of Congress saw this stuff years ago --- public should know -- !!!

Thanks to Hersh we have had some idea of this --

Is there any question in anyone's mind that our government was taken over by Sadists????

Cheney and Bush should be in leg irons now!!!

[ColesCountyDem]

176. Children! Dear God, CHILDREN!

I'm not a vengeful person, normally, but this is so ABNORMAL that I want to castrate the bastards who did this with a dull butter knife!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[lsewpershad]

179. Makes me sick

to even think that we point our fingers at others and feel we have the moral right to accuse them of human rights abuses. My god if this is true how screwed up have we become. And we're still debating if the criminals who were responsible should be prosecuted. Congress, Mr President, Mr AG what are we waiting for?

[Mike 03]

180. Hasn't he been saying this for years? I love Hersh, but let's get the evidence out in the open,

regardless of how horrifying it might be. We need it in order to seriously prosecute those who are responsible. We can't prosecute anybody on the basis of these vague statements Hersh has been making. He keeps promising this stuff will come out.

I believe him, but where the fuck is it???

[DutchLiberal]

185. NOBODY will be prosecuted. Let it go. Accept it.

The United States (and its presidents) are above the law. The rest of the world has accepted it. Why won't you?

No, I don't like it. I hate it. It makes me so angry I can't describe it. But it is the reality.

Like Obama said, "we have to stop looking backwards". They have even got Bill Maher convinced of this position. Because the Republicans wouldn't like prosecutions and they would throw a tantrum, the media would assist them and nothing would get done in D.C. So what better thing to do than *reward* them for their childish behavior? :eyes:

[Uzybone]

198. old news Sey....we need the evidence

Hersh is in danger of being the boy who cried wolf. Wasnt he supposed to release a major expose' a few weeks after the election?

[Uzybone]

199. old news Sey....we need the evidence

Hersh is in danger of being the boy who cried wolf. Wasnt he supposed to release a major expose' a few weeks after the election?