Convicted soldier: 'You probably think I'm a monster'. But, honestly, Why?

[Mike 03]

FWIW: Story that many of us have been following.

PADUCAH, Kentucky (CNN) -- "You probably think I'm a monster."

Former U.S. soldier Steven Green has been convicted of raping and killing a 14-year-old Iraqi girl.
That's what FBI agents said former U.S. soldier Steven Green told them nearly three years ago about accusations that he had raped a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and killed her and her family.

Green was found guilty Thursday in U.S. District Court in Paducah of the crimes and could face the death penalty.

Green spoke as the agents and he drove from his grandmother's home in Nebo, North Carolina, where he'd been arrested, to a detention center 45 minutes away in Asheville, North Carolina, authorities said.

According to court documents:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/11/us.soldier.iraq.killings/index.html

Horrific story.

Honestly, deep down, why do you think this happened?

Psychopath?

Psychopaths egging each other on?

Some motive I can't even comprehend?

[ccharles000]

1. If you rape and murder you are a monster.

[Mike 03]

2. I'm with you. But I wish I could X ray his mind and figure out what is wrong with him,

why he is so messed up, and what caused it.

And also, I wonder why no one in his troop (or whatever you call it) stopped it.

Thanks for responding. I really respect your posts.

[jbnow]

14. You know it was so much worse than that and for testifying against

against him the others who helped plot and rape and burn might get out in 7 years (instead of the 100 or so they were sentenced to)

Green was clearly disturbed from the start, everyone knew it.

An obviously disturbed soldier who reportedly wore his pants torn to partly expose his genitals, he was so enraged by the deaths of ambushed U.S. soldiers that he kept shouting that he wanted to kill Iraqi civilians. He was called a "virus" by others in the platoon because his fury seemed contagious. (snip)
A few weeks after the killings Green dropped a puppy off the top of a building, and finding it still alive, burned it.

He was released pushed out of the Army, given an honorable discharge with a note in the file saying he had an "antisocial personality disorder." That sounded like at least they realized he wasn't suited but the sick part is this was after confessing/bragging about the crime to a Sargent who was investigating the crime. By that I mean covering it up. He got rid of evidence like the shells in the rooms where Green shot the parents before shooting the 6 year old in the face and then going out and raping Abeer. Then killing her...since the others had already raped her. Then they burned her. Then they tried to burn down the whole house.
(When it was revealed that the Sgt had just covered up and not reported the truth (and let Green back into society) he got a dishonorable discharge. That's all.)
I remember reading back then that they'd been watching Abeer for a long time because she was so beautiful. It's not in this article but I recall one or some of them had tried to approach her before but she evaded and avoided them.

Green was most obviously crazy and di the shooting but it's unlikely he was the ringleader. Another guy picked the family so he could rape the girl and lured Green into it by saying he could do the shooting.
Why didn't they stop him? Well when their NCO learned of the plan he didn't stop them...he joined in but insisted on being able to be the first one to rape her.

Not only was Abeer a young beauty she was known and loved in the neighborhood, from a loving family...Can't recall all I read about her...

But see...we can't blame some crazy guy...there is at least a half dozen guys...at least 4 in on the planning and raping. The rest had not seemed crazy, seemed well adjusted. They planned it. They admired her beauty so of course they wanted to terrorize and rape her and kill her whole family and any other witnesses. They planned to murder so they could get away with gang raping a lovely young girl. I wish we could blame one psycho guy...but the "respectable" guys are harder to explain...and so is that they will be out in 7 years.

Some kind of group think that those who found out joined in or covered up...because they were just Iraqis? This had been far back in my mind until now and now the return of that deep ache and horror at the thought of what that family went through and they did it to put their thingies into a young girl. Good God. They kept her alive for the rape although she'd heard the screams of her parents and little sister...and heard the shots that silenced them. Her terror, pain, horror as she was held down and raped by man after man knowing her family had been killed. They kept her alive...cause it would be nasty to have sex with a dead girl? What? Her screams and sobs must have been part of what they wanted.
Then they shot her. Then they burned her.
Most of them were "sane"

I am so damn sorry and I hope there os some afterlife...that they are together and happy with some loving peace we can't understand.
I am so damn sorry

Here is the article the quote is from
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gail-mcgowan-mellor/steve-green-trial-a-barga_b_198727.html

[Echo In Light]

24. Militarization. That's what's wrong. Trains people to kill, first and foremost

Gussy it up any way you need to, training to de-humanize and kill is what they do.

[ohheckyeah]

3. I think it's a screwed up mind

made more screwed up by war.

[armyowalgreens]

4. He's not a monster.

I've been dealing with evil in my ethics class recently and it brought up some very important points.

If you consider someone a monster, than they are no longer classified as human. In turn you cannot punish them as a human being because they did not act within the laws and ethics of humanity. They cannot comprehend morality and law.

If you consider him a normal guy that did a horrible act, than he should be brought to justice. But he is than given certain rights because he is a human being acting within the laws and morality of humanity. One right is the right to life.

I personally think he probably suffers from severe mental or social defects. Possibly something treatable. We shouldn't forsake the man simply because of the grotesqueness of the acts committed.

[rwheeler31]

6. We never help people we just through them into a

a justice system that does not work.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. He gave you the reason in what he told the FBI

rage

Not an excuse, not at all, but these troops, who are elite mind you... did what they did out of rage for what happened to their buddies

You see US Troops, or any other troop for that matter, don't go to war for mom, apple pie and the (insert here) way of life. They go to war for their buddies, and to protect their buddies. Anything after that is bullshit.

This is something people who have never, ever served cannot comprehend. And that rage is very powerful, and when you loose control of it, as they obviously did... this side of humanity that is there in all of us, comes out. Yes, you and me can become that monster. I hold no illusions.

Oh and another thing missed by most civilians. They did not rape a 14 year old Iraqi girl. They raped the other. They did not kill human beings, but something else. That is what war does. It dehumanizes the other.

He is both a perpetrator, and a victim... and he's right, those who should be arrested and sent to the docket for putting him and his buddies in that hell hole are Bush and Chenney, but he also should be a man about it, since he let rage control his actions that day. Oh and from having talked to vets, or having been shot myself, I can tell you that they were not thinking of what they were doing, but revenge for their Lt., who's face was blown up.. and their blown up buddies.

Why you have to be careful to let slip the dogs of war... because once they are out, they are hard to control.

[Withywindle]

7. Only in their minds

They did not rape a 14 year old Iraqi girl. They raped the other. They did not kill human beings, but something else. That is what war does. It dehumanizes the other.

It "dehumanizes" the "other" ONLY in the minds of the perpetrators and their apologists. The rest of us see this for what it is: he raped and killed a child; he killed her, and another child, and an innocent man and woman in cold blood. If I see it that way because I'm a civilian, then I think that means often civilians see these things MORE clearly.

So what if the attacker/occupied relationship were reversed, and some Iraqi soldiers did this to an American family? It would be the exact same crime, no more horrible, and no less. But I think a lot of Americans' "gut reactions" would be different, and it would be harder to some to make excuses for, wouldn't it?

Yes, we can all become the monster. I agree, we need to be aware of this. But the overwhelming majority of people in the world, including soldiers in similar situations and worse, often manage not to do so. People capable of an act like this had at best a tenuous grasp on humanity in the first place, and I don't think there's much hope of rehabilitating them, nor do I think it's worth the risk to other innocent people to ever let them see the light of day again even if there is a remote possibility.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. I am not apologizing... war creates the other

plenty of studies on it

Read Jay Lifton on it for starters.

I am not saying don't try this guy. by all means. But he did not rape a 14 year old girl, get that through your head. He raped the other. IN the here and now he might realize what happened, but in the moment, you are shitting me right?

This is not an apology, it is psychological reality.

Now if he has a good lawyer, the lawyer may go for the insanity defense... which should NOT work. But this private is right. There are other people missing in that court room, because this war was not necessary.

And please do not try to lecture me on this. I have talked to more survivors of actual war... both victims and victimizers, to know what happened, and to understand the dynamic. And if this was an American family and this happened in war, by occupying forces, it would be the exact same dynamic, and your point here? Why I said, we have to be careful when we let the dogs of war slip.

Now if you think understanding the dynamic is an apology, so be it. Mike asked, I answered... and there is plenty of psychology to back this.

[Withywindle]

13. I didn't think you were apologizing.

I might have phrased it clumsily, but that is what the justice system is supposed to do: stand outside the "fog of war" (or other circumstances that might be affecting the mind of a perp) and call a crime for what it is. I'm still not fully convinced the US justice system will be able to do this fully, because of racism and because the "othering" that happens in war--and not just in war, it happens all around us in our day to day lives--might not allow a jury to see that this is in no way less of a crime or more excusable than if Abeer and her family were blond, blue-eyed, Methodist, and lived in Illinois.

I don't much care what Green THOUGHT she was. I don't care if he took bad acid and thought she was a purple saber-toothed tiger trying to eat him. She and her family are still just as horribly dead, and personally I think he ought be handed over to an Iraqi court with no help from us. I'll settle for justice here, though.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. He is facing charges under the 1997 war crimes act

he is facing the death penalty, which for the record I don't believe in.. but that is another ball of wax, though I can see it for war criminals, not this garden variety, but people like George Bush... or high treason.

I find it ironic, since he'd not get any justice in Iraq... can you say prejudiced jury (they don't use a jury system by the way, but just saying)

But his buddies in the Army still will not face as harsh a set of charges either.

In my mind though the problem is not that we are trying this kid... but that we are not trying those who are directly responsible for him being there. And we will never try them, mark my words, not even charge them.

So what we have is a two tier system of justice, the one for everbydoy and the one for the DC insiders.

If he gets off, it will not be because othering, but because we are an empire. And empires will do what empires will do.

[Withywindle]

8. Why do psychopaths cause suffering?

The chilling, simple answer is: because they fucking enjoy it. Because it gives them a thrill. Because it makes them feel powerful.

It's about rushes and thrills and feeling alive. Non-sociopaths get this feeling all sorts of ways: sex, bungee-jumping, amusement park rides, dancing, playing sports, creative arts, doing something kind of risky and new and succeeding at it, etcetera, etcetera. Sociopaths and psychopaths get it by making someone else HURT. In small, socially acceptable ways and in big, bloody, horrific ways.

It can be illuminating to ask, why do so many people in awful circumstances do awful things?

It's also illuminating to ask why so many people in circumstances just as bad DON'T. What is the difference between the two?

[stillcool]

9. I wish we could all experience..

a year or more in the environment of war..and see what happens to our psyche's. I'm disgusted with the pure of mind and body, who appear to have never had to have come to terms with any of the worst traits inherent in human beings, or the more horrific lessons that life has to offer. I'm sick of the self-righteous, arrogance displayed by those so eager to condemn. It's no wonder we incarcerate more people than any other country on the planet, and are such a violent, sick society. People are not human beings, they are things to be ripped apart and thrown away. Who cares why? Kill them all...most of them are already half dead anyway.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt

and I get it... my hope is that nobody has to ever experience the fear, the pain, the cold, the enhanced senses, the feeling of I'm already dead just need to be official, and the mosquitoes are NOT squishy.

Though that would probably change this society, if even half the population experienced 1\10th of a percent of what troops do regularly. That said... I get it, but for some getting it is an excuse. Never mind there are so many studies it is not even funny. And yes, it is a war-crime, What I find amazing is that he'll face the death penalty in a civilian court, while his buddies will not. Ain't that wild?

[stillcool]

15. I get so angry...

I know there are no excuses but there are reasons. Cause and effect, and effect, and effect. War after war, after war. Same shit. I've never experienced anything like what you have. I've lived with the effects. I know haunted, the hole that pierces the soul, and the tormented mind. I know about don't ask, don't tell..in a whole different realm of the military experience...and I weep. It kills me that people don't see people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. I talk, and write, that's how I deal with it

and I did nothing compared to hubby, who also did nothing or experienced nothing compared to these troops.

I partly blame the media and the Empire. The media produces things where none of the characters are affected. Why BSG was so ahem, revolutionary. But they never get changed, except in modern times, for BSG.

THink about it, if people go see a movie where war is fun... and nobody gets haunted by it, of course when the real things happen... the real shit, the denial sets in.

And we are going to pay a price when the mile a stare come home to live amongst us.

[southerncrone]

12. We had better brace ourselves for when these guys come home.

This war has forced our soldiers to experience immense horrors & grief. We better have programs in place to help them deprogram BEFORE they come home. Otherwise, we are going to see these guys go crazy on our society. This will be a tremendous problem unless we are proactive about it. :hide:

[blindpig]

22. Too late.

Law enforcement is hiring them hand over fist.

[Bluerthanblue]

23. Mr.Green had problems before he even went to Iraq- and NEVER

should have been allowed to sign up.
There is some responsibility for what was done to be placed on the relaxed standards for enlistment.

But I agree with you on your basic point- there are some very wounded people returning from this war, some with little or no outward scars.


:shrug:

[imdjh]

18. nevermind

read another post that made all my psychobabble a distant second to the best theory

[ConcernedCanuk]

19. Not many realize the desensitizing hate-creating methods the military use in training.

.
.
.

25 years ago I knew a couple of our "Airborne" guys from Petawawa before they were disbanded as a result of their atrocities.

YEAH

They were TRAINED to be especially violent and without regard for human life/suffering.

YUP - they were us Canuks

Well, the USA is still training like that, in spades.

And millions have been "trained" that way in the last few decades, and are your neighbors.

And you wonder why violence among USAmericans at home is increasing . . ?

I have a real brilliant observation for y'all

DOH!

[imdjh]

21. I think it's pretty much a given

That people raised in safe places with a strong moral and legal perspective on killing have to be modified to be able to fight a war. They have to develop an "us and them" mentality, a survival instinct where the rules are completely different than they are at home. They do have to see the enemy as evil, as less than human. And the rare individual will not be able to turn that on and off, or to differentiate the "other" who is enemy from the "other" who is not. I think that what these men did is predictable, not excusable, but predictable and perhaps unavoidable whenever there is a large scale military action especially a war zone that is not a formal or classic battle. I'm not sure that there is really anything that can be done to see that it never happens.

However, in this case, it seems that there was plenty of warning that at least one of these individuals was a time bomb. Ignoring that was inexcusable and arguably a party to the crimes he committed.

[Seldona]

20. Why?

It doesn't matter in my opinion. But I will share it anyway.

They are psychopathic killers who perpetrated one of the most horrific war crimes in American history. Certainly for those involved anyway.

Lock them up, hospital or prison, I don't really care. Treat them humanely, give them their three hots and a cot, but never again should anyone involved in this ever walk free. Ever.