ed is laying it all out today....18 uninterrupted minutes so far

[madrchsod]

tonight`s tee-vee show will be a must watch

[jillan]

1. What's his topic of the day?

[madrchsod]

3. max and his senate committee hearings...

obama does`t have a spreadsheet on a single payer government program...millions want single payer...obama will become a one term wonder.

we are being sold down the river by the democrats

[Ilsa]

2. What? health care reform? I hope so. nt

[tnlefty]

4. Yes, it's about how those of us who want a single payer

public option are being crapped upon. *sigh*

[madfloridian]

6. Then those who want single payer only should....

not "crap" on people like Dean who are speaking what they believe.

That is what is happening now. Calling public option a fraud is smearing a lot of us including Dean.

[tnlefty]

7. Hey mad!

I've been busy the past few days and mostly been listening to the radio.

Who all is calling a single payer option a fraud? Baucass? Others? :hi:

[madfloridian]

8. Not calling single payer a fraud, calling the "public option"

a fraud. See the posts in GDP about it.

There is no reason we can not advocate for both. When people say the public option is a false one, they are attacking me because I signed the petition.

There are about 3 posts there where single payer folks are making it clear it is the only way.

[tnlefty]

18. I see while I've been away internal fighting has begun.

First of all, I'm not calling anyone names, especially you, but I do think that single payer is needed - just trying to figure out how to get there.

What Ed was really railing about is the arrests of the advocates for single payer and Baucass acting like an ass in having them removed and arrested, and how none of those health care professionals even have a seat at the table to explain their positions, discuss why from their experiences as doctors, nurses, etc., it's the way to go. And he was really raising hell about their not having a voice in the discussion.

He mentioned Sen. Durbin's stating on his show 'the Senate is owned by the banks' and said something about 'now we can see it's the banks and the insurance industry.' It angers me that the advocates are being shut out.

[madfloridian]

23. I agree with all you said.

So why am I now one of the bad guys? Don't think so? Read GDP.

[tnlefty]

24. Sorry, I had to go pick up the boys from school.

Hartmann was railing about the arrests and shutting out the single payer advocates. I don't have a lot of time to read right now.

My first guess would be that there are members here who seem to take great delight in stalking you around to deride anything that you post. I've noticed that early into discussion of issues that lead to internal fighting, a polarizing categorization gets set up and it leads to more fighting and name calling. A few examples off the top of my head:

If you disagree with the appts. of Geithner and/or Summers then you want the Obama Presidency to fail. Uh, no, I just think they were really bad choices.

If you want the monsters in the Bush** administration who were responsible for a policy of torture and trying to make it legal prosecuted, then you just want revenge, looking backward not forward, it will be a distraction that will ultimately cause the President to fail. Uh, no, I want justice and those responsible punished in an effort to repair the country's image, but most importantly to send a clear message to monsters who might get into positions of power in the future.

I'll try to find some time to read and come up with an answer to your question, but these are my 2 best guesses.

[mirrera]

25. I admire your posts so much, if you say that the public option is worth looking at, I will.

I do not know what it means exactly, but I also signed a petition that any plan should have a public option. It is the only way to force the insurance companies to be what they should be... for rich people that want EXTRA services. Give us basic health and prevention and let the insurance companies find a different host.

[Zodiak]

9. I think you may be personalizing this too much

I like Howard Dean quite a bit, but I will argue with him if he is wrong, and if I think that a policy position he advocates is wrong, I will speak up. That is simply my nature.

Howard Dean is wrong to be pushing for the public option.

Here are the main reasons why:

1. Our political calculus will ALWAYS eliminate the most leftwards option because of entrenched republicans and pro-business Democrats.....face it, they HATE the left. Without single payer on the table with accompanying fierce advocates, all of the ire of the pukes and conservadems will be on the public option, promising its failure. Dean should know that he is considered "far left" by this political calculus, and therefore should be pushing for the most leftie position, which is not simply a public option. The fact that he pushes only for a public option now will paint a big red target on it....and he should know that. He is framing the argument too far to the right.

2. Chuck Schumer has already signaled that he will gut the public option so it cannot compete with private insurance. I do not trust him and his Democratic allies to put together a public plan in good faith while leaving the private insurance infrastructure untouched. If Schumer's version of the public option is passed, people will not get real healthcare reform, and the Democrats will once again have a mark a failure on the healthcare front, promising another 20 years of doing nothing. We cannot let this happen (waaay too many lives at stake), so we push for single payer so assholes like Schumer are RELIEVED when the public option is passed and will be less inclined to gut it.

3. The plan for a public option is not on the table at all....Dean is not advocating for a real policy here, but a principle without details. It is one thing to advocate for a policy that is well-enumerated, but if it is not, it is risky to endorse it BEFORE the pro-business Dems gut it. He may be stuck with advocating a shit sandwich.

So this is why I think single-payer should be front and center. I would rather that be the boogey-man than the public option. You do not start negotiating by compromising the ultimate goal from the beginning. I see a public option is a compromise, not an opening position.

[madfloridian]

10. Personalizing it? I signed two petitions. That makes it very very personal.

If the single payer folks think they will get their way by calling those who support the public option for practical reasons....wrong or impractical then there will be no winners.

I have been all for the single payer option as well until I now see that it is that or death to other plans....now I really don't care.

I have my insurance, I WAS fighting for those who do not.

But I seeing things that scare me now very much .

I won't post or advocate anymore for any of it.

[Zodiak]

12. Unfortunately, you are not addressing my points at all

My reasons for being against pushing for a public option alone are enumerated above. I think they are pretty fair points, and certainly not meant to shut you up, so please do not take it as such. They are points that I feel need addressing.

And I will always care....that is why I took the time to disagree with you even though we are almost invariably on the same side of most issues. Posting that you suddenly do not care and are so willing to give up does not bode well for the position you advocate if others who hold the same position hold it so lightly. I know that the single-payer people are willing to fight pretty damned hard for their issues to be addressed....such a shame they are not even let at the table.

And I signed the petition, as well. When I discuss personalizing the issue, I am talking about your Howard Dean point, not your own involvement....but I don't feel "smeared" when people disagree with said position. That is hyperbolic. Who really cares about the personalities involved? I care about the woman I had to watch die of cancer a few years back because she had no health insurance. I care about my friend who has all kinds of health problems but cannot get care and is slowly wasting away (and has a hard time getting a job because of the health prospects). I care about the fact that even though I have insurance, I can STILL be rendered destitute the next time I have trouble with my heart.


Whomever feels trashed or smeared because of single-payer advocacy means absolutely nothing to me. Those are emotions....and this is a policy discussion with millions of lives at stake. It's time to be big persons and advocate for ourselves rather than what our favorite politician wants. If Kucinich wanted a public option in the vein of Schumer and Baucus' vision, I'd tell him he was wrong, too.

[madfloridian]

15. The division has started, it won't stop. Not with the parties involved in doing it.

So I really do mean that I am not wearing myself out on it anymore.
I have worked very hard on this only to be insulted.

We have had our losses too.

[Fireweed247]

17. the division has started because of the bait and switch with public option

There is no logic to keeping the insurance companies in the loop, that is capitulation.

No one is attacking you by presenting their opinions on this bait and switch tactic.

[Zodiak]

19. It is a bait and switch

And what's worse is that the insurance companies are being allowed to the table to help put together a public plan option. Do you think they will advocate for a good public plan knowing they have to compete with it? No way!

If there is anyone responsible for dividing us, it is the people who refused to even allow single-payer advocates to speak. In this way, the public plan people think they have been legitimized (even though the key players want to only use the public option as a bargaining chip, not actually pushing for the public option) and that single-payer is de-legitimized. Naturally half of the left feel spurned and the other half feels they need to play kissy-face to win. Both are set up to lose.

The left is always torn between sucking up to their party (which invariably goes the wrong way) and fighting for what is right. Sucking up to the party always leads to bad policy (conservadems demanding that republican smear their shitty ideas all over policy), so why the hell not try to fight for what is right for once?

[madfloridian]

22. Ok

Then don't compromise at all.

[Zodiak]

20. Then take your damned ball and go home

If you drop your care for others and your advocacy over some perceived insult, then you were never really committed in the first place.

And if you ARE really committed in the first place, drop the woe-is-me ruse and debate.

[madfloridian]

21. You are not debating, you are ridiculing and attacking.

[madrchsod]

5. classic ed ripping the crap out of bacus and obama....

[MrsBrady]

11. i heard a few minutes on XM while in the car

good stuff...


Thank you ED!!

[slipslidingaway]

13. tthanks knr nt

[imdjh]

14. Floridians Call Bill Nelson and demand Single Payer - Tampa answers live

Washington, D.C.
United States Senate
716 Senate Hart Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Orlando
Landmark Two
225 East Robinson Street, Ste 410
Orlando, Florida 32801
Phone: [phone]
Toll Free in Florida: 1-888-671-4091
Fax: [phone]

Miami-Dade
2925 Salzedo Street
Coral Gables, FL 33134
Phone: [phone] Telephone
Fax: [phone]

Tampa
Sam Gibbons Federal Court House
801 N. Florida Ave., 4th Floor
Tampa, Florida 33602
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

West Palm Beach
500 Australian Avenue Suite 125
West Palm Beach, Florida 33401
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Tallahassee
US Court House Annex
111 North Adams Street
Tallahassee, Florida 32301
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Jacksonville
1301 Riverplace Blvd, Suite 2218
Jacksonville, Florida 32207
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Broward
3416 South University Drive
Davie, FL 33328
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Fort Myers
Justice Center Annex Building
2000 Main Street, Suite 801
Fort Myers, FL 33901
Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

[Fireweed247]

16. K&R GO ED!!

:applause:

[slipslidingaway]

26. kick n/t