An official apology needs to be drafted by Congress and sent to the President

[mmonk]

for a signature and sent to the country of Germany. Obviously, we were wrong to put them through a trial on war crimes at Nuremberg. We can say that at the time, we didn't realize they conducted those crimes for their national security and we apologize to the families of any who may have been executed or detained on charges at that court. Then we should go to the UN and apologize for helping create the framework for modern international law and human rights. Truely, we just didn't know we affected their national security in such a negative manner. Then we can live our American lives free from the blatant hypocrisy we live by now.

eom

[Faygo Kid]

1. A bit over the top. Apologize to them about the Holocaust?

I get your point, but fooling around with the Holocaust is no way to make it.

[mmonk]

2. No. Apologize for the trial.

We do not adhere to its principles or its precedent.

[mmonk]

3. For those that say no comparisons can be made because of the

holocaust, then does the holocaust itself allow countries to break the priniciples set forth when the country engages in many of the same crimes absent the holocaust? How about what it calls the supreme crime, crimes against peace under which all others fall?

Here is the Nuremberg Principles. Note the absent of the word holocaust.

Any person who commits an act which constitutes a crime under international law is responsible therefor and liable to punishment.


Principle II

The fact that internal law does not impose a penalty for an act which constitutes a crime under international law does not relieve the person who committed the act from responsibility under international law.


Principle III

The fact that a person who committed an act which constitutes a crime under international law acted as Head of State or responsible Government official does not relieve him from responsibility under international law.


Principle IV

The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.


Principle V

Any person charged with a crime under international law has the right to a fair trial on the facts and law.


Principle VI

The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:

(a) Crimes against peace:
(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;
(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).

(b) War crimes:
Violations of the laws or customs of war include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave-labour or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory, murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war, of persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.

(c) Crimes against humanity:
Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhuman acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connexion with any crime against peace or any war crime.


Principle VII

Complicity in the commission of a crime against peace, a war crime, or a crime against humanity as set forth in Principle VI is a crime under international law.

[Faygo Kid]

7. Again, I understand your point. But I disagree with the use of the Holocaust.

Just because that word isn't used here doesn't make the comparison apt.

We disagree on this one.

[mmonk]

10. I did not use the holocaust. I used the trial and the priniciples set forth.

You used the holocaust. The principles mean nothing if we reject them by our actions. They have become empty words on our part.

[Faygo Kid]

Citing war crimes trials at Nuremburg and saying that doesn't mean the Holocaust?

Disingenuous and self-defeating.

[mmonk]

14. Insult me as you wish.

[Faygo Kid]

15. No insult intended.

We are going to disagree about this one. That's all. I simply think you're wrong in your use of the Holocaust, and you don't. Fine by me.

[mmonk]

16. Again, I was using Nuremberg and its principles which

formed the basis of and constitute international law in regards to war crimes. We should not reject those principles and we should support prosecution of war crimes in my opinion. We should not see ourselves exempt from them because the country we prosecuted and formed these priniciples in order to prosecute also engaged in extermination camps. It would not be the correct way to remember the holocaust or ensure another never occurs.

[Mike 03]

4. With tears in my eyes, from your post, all I can do is say I agree and kick and rec your post.

You are right. I don't understand how it is possible that people can not comprehend the necessity of our behavioral consistency.

[Mike 03]

5. I so respect your posts, and this one is yet another example for the reason why. NT.

[mmonk]

6. Thank you so much for your kind words.

It was hard to do this post. I used to be proud of my country because of what we sought and fought for to bring forth at Nuremberg and its principles for a peaceful and more humane world. It was done with great lament.

[Mike 03]

9. Yes, I hear you. And I agree. It is painful to see these developments. It's hard to

even comprehend this situation.

I wish I could be more articulate in what I am trying to say, but just please know I appreciate your posts.

[indepat]

12. Your post demonstrates the hypocrisy of every person who has supported, aided and abetted,

shilled for, or been a party to war(s) of aggression and torture and the hypocrisy of every person who turns a blind eye to what has happened now that the whole world sees these for what they are. :D

[Beam Me Up]

8. Ah, jeebitz! I don't think so. Better to understand that the problems we're

facing are an extension of what took place in Germany. Most here know about the connections between the Bush family and the Nazi's, for example. Know that fascism isn't just something that happened in Germany but was funded by the oligarchs of this country. Hell, Hitler was on the cover of Time magazine as a man of the year at one point. Most people here know about operation paperclip, too, about how the CIA brought many of the Nazi operatives into this country.

THE POINT BEING -- that war didn't end the way we thought it did. Not by a long shot. The German Nazi's may have lost but their fascist enablers DID NOT.

SO -- I'm not apologizing to ANYBODY. We just have to complete what "the greatest generation" left unfinished -- bringing that old, old war right on back home.


typo

[mmonk]

11. Nonetheless, the hypocrisy is apparent and not lost on others.

[ProgressIn2008]

13. Point well taken about Nuremberg. You know, lately, I've been finding it hard

to keep a sense of humor. I get a lot of "oh, you're a downer" and "lighten up." It's harder to just kick back and sink into the teevee when I feel this growing disconnect between me and the country. Is this the country I live in? Where there's no rule of law and no way to demand it? Where we're at the whims of the shiny politicians who see every problem as a political calculation? And international law is some disposable inconvenience?

I'd say I'm depressed, but that's not the right word. I don't need pills. I don't need a shrink. I don't need a spa day or a makeover or a new kitchen. I don't need empty promises or a bottle. I need to feel like I'm not slipping into some weird Terry Gilliam film a little more with each passing day. I need justice -- to be done and to be seen to be done.

Sorry for the tangent -- it was on my mind and then I read your post. Your words are the words that echo in my own head a lot lately.