A Taste for Gratuitous Violence: Do We Have To See it All?

[Blue State Bandit]

Since 2004, the world has known the dirty little (not so little) secret of the Bush regime's torture programs. We were shown horrible and humiliating pictures. Naked men stacked like cords of lumber, cowering before froth-mouthed K-9's, and the infamous hooded man, seemingly wired to an electrical circuit. These pictures shocked the world.

Since that day -when the United States lost it's moral standing following the release of the original Abu-Ghraib photos- we have lost more military men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan than civilians lost on 9/11. Most of those lost since the torture revelations dies at the hands of militants and suicide bombers who sat on the fences till they saw those pictures.

Since that day, we watched the Bush administration slowly spiral into the gutter of world opinion, and drag America down with them. 4 years later, we have witnessed the most dramatic political shift in recent American history.

We know the crime was committed. We know that Bush, Cheney, and their neo-con pals orchestrated this horrific policy. And we now know, that America have started down the long path of redemption with the election of Barack Obama, and his release of the Bush OLC documentation "justifying" these atrocities.

So why the fuck do we need to see more? Why do we need to relive the suffering of those poor souls unfortunate enough to be swept up into that hellish program? Are we that fucking sick, that we crave the gratuitous? What about the victims? Do you really think that Iraqi's want there neighbors to see their humiliation? In a culture that puts the female victims of rape do death in honor killings, hunts down and murders homosexuals, where one's honor is everything... Do we really think that publishing pictures of him simulating sex with another male detainee on the cover of the NYT a good thing?

I'll tell you what will happen. He will seek to regain his honor in the only way left to him, martyrdom.

How fucking sick are we? The cat is out of the bag, we know the crimes, and the players, and the costs. Yet we want more? This is nothing but the same violent, voyeuristic bullshit that made Bush and Cheney think that America would understand, and I will have no part of it.

Fact: The torture policy of the Bush administration made America less safe.

Fact: The actions of President Obama since his inauguration to end the practice, and come clean about that dark time has begun to make us safer.

Opinion: Releasing more pictures now, after all that has transpired since 2004, is the worst possible course of action Obama could take. It will do nothing but add to the ranks of our enemies, to the funerals Americans, and everyone's sorrows.

I accept Obama's consideration of release as enough to satisfy me. I accept Obama's actual release of Bush administration documentation of the torture program as proof enough of his intent.

I would support offering legal remedies to those in the picture, I would support releasing it to them, if they so chose, to defend themselves from forced confessions in court. But that is as far as I would go, and anything more, in my mind, is self gratification take way to far.

You want your fix, go rent a Hostel.

Edit (A-G photos)

[Warpy]

1. While I don't want to see them

I do want the curious to be able to.

I want the curious appalled enough to demand the arrest of every last filthy criminal in the last administration over them.

I understand Obama's reasoning. I don't think it's sound, but I do understand it.

I want the criminals prosecuted. This would be just one more thing to make it more acceptable to middle America.

[Blue State Bandit]

4. How does that song go...

"If you don't know me by now..."

Unless one of those pics has Cheney in a leather cowboy git up, riding Bush dressed as the gimp, rustling naked Iraqi's, I doubt you this will achieve your desired effect.

Anyone that curious, that's not already screaming for heads to roll, are enjoying it too much.

I'll tell you what, I would support a trade, dropping pressure to release more photos, videos, detailed interrogation reports, for multiple convictions of cabinet level bush officials, including Cheney.

...but I'm not in government.

[Dogtown]

2. Save it for court

We don't want appeals based on claims of pre-judicial publicity...

[stillcool]

3. Seeing as how supposedly half...

of the American people are okey-dokey with torture, we need to see what we have done. Of course those same people will probably get off on it, but they should know what they are approving of, so when it happens to Americans they won't be surprised.

[Blue State Bandit]

8. So this don't do it for ya?

Do we really need more?

[stillcool]

9. It does it just fine for me...

I'm not okey-dokey with torturing any one, and have written letters to the editor, and my Congressman about this on several occasions. My Congressman is a member of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, and has assured me that investigations are on-going, and they will continue to investigate wherever the evidence takes them. Obviously there are many who do not share my views.

[Blue State Bandit]

12. So view the pics in closed session, ID contractors...

conducting the programs, and haul them in for questioning.

I understand your position, but I hope you don't fall into the whole "see what I paid for" meme being thrown around below.

[stillcool]

16. I just want the American people..

to know what they, and their representatives approve of.

[Blue State Bandit]

23. We've known for 5 years...

the task is making sure they care.

[JHB]

26. Back when those came out the people responsible were in power...

...and backed by a powerful media apparatus, and you remember how they minimized it:

"no worse than hazing", "Saddam's rape room guards", "the worst of the worst", "a few bad apples".

And the parts of the media and congress who weren't part of the cheerleader squad were mostly intimidated into going along with the minimization.

Now we have plenty of hard information and evidence to refute the minimizers, and releasing the photos will leave them without a leg to stand on, so we might actually make it politically "safe" to do the right thing and prosecute the criminals who directed and carried out these acts.

[Blue State Bandit]

32. Documents of who, what, when, and how...

makes it "politically safe" to do the right thing. More pictures are moot. All they do is add to the already extensive library of grotesque, misogynistic, and brutal photos available for display on the streets of America and the Muslim World.

They will serve no purpose other than picking scabs.

The only reason to release any of these new photos, it to discredit, and convict individual contractors and military brass/personnel who were clearly taking personal gratification in torture "outside of the four corners" of the OLC documents as described by President Obama.

Even then, such photos should be cropped for public consumption, and only viewed in full context by investigators, a sequestered jury, the presiding judicial body, and the assholes who committed these atrocities (if only because the law provides discovery for the accused).

And one other thing, "political expedience" as an excuse, is pathetic as it should have been covered by the 2004 series.

[LanternWaste]

75. I imagine many people think that partial and selective...

"Do we really need more?"

I imagine many people think that a selective and partial truth is by definition, not a truth.

But as to 'do we really "need" it?' Doubtful. However, is it something that honor and honesty dictates we take a long, careful and studious examination of, regardless of how ugly it may be? I think so.

ed: sp

[polichick]

5. It's not about wanting to see pictures - it's about transparency and justice...

It wasn't "a few bad apples" and those responsible have not been brought to justice, in spite of what the president said yesterday ~ just ask this woman. Her recent appearance on Rachel Maddow's show was very enlightening. She is pissed about the scapegoating that has gone on.



http://www.amazon.com/One-Womans-Army-Commanding-General/dp/1401352472

[Blue State Bandit]

10. How many must die... How many horrors must one witness...

how many lives must be ruined, to satisfy our thirst?

The proof is widely available. I disagree, in part, to your assessment. We have transparency on this issue. The view becomes clearer every day.

We are missing Justice. I do agree with that. So tell me where is the justice in releasing more disgusting pictures? We know what happened. There's more than enough out there to feed the justice we want.

Now, unless, these pictures show something more than torture, like, proof that the program was specifically designed and executed to force false confessions for use in domestic propaganda, then releasing these photos amount to nothing more a than voyeuristic blood-lust that would ultimately prove our enemy's point for us. That we are a sick and twisted society, and we "get off" on scenes of torture and humiliation.

[polichick]

31. Just the fact that there are so many pictures from so many sites show...

...that it was not "a few" ~ the ACLU complaint is about a SYSTEMIC problem, which the president seemed to ignore by stating that those responsible have been punished.

Perhaps you are projecting your own "thirst" ~ I, for one, have no interest in the photos themselves, only in what they prove about those in charge.

[gratuitous]

6. I paid for it

I want to see what my money paid for. I want to know why people all over the world hate us. I want to end the rumors and get the facts out in front of the American people. I want every humiliating, de-humanizing, debasing detail out there. I want the perpetrators, the architects and the apologists confronted with the evidence and made to answer for their handiwork. And I want us to abjure this despicable conduct. We failed to deal with our misconduct in the 1970s with the Nixon gang, and we got the Reagan and Bush gang in the 1980s. We failed to deal with the atrocities and crimes against humanity perpetrated by those outlaws, and we got the Bush-Cheney gang in the 2000s. What will we get to deal with in the 2010s or 2020s if we fail again to hold our high government criminals accountable?

[Blue State Bandit]

14. So... you want a refund? Sick excuse, try again.

American torture is NOT a rumor.

And with 1000+ posts, if you don't know why they hate us...

Then again, with a moniker like that, what should I have expected.

[gratuitous]

30. No, it's not a rumor

But I'm sure hearing a lot of large talk from people who don't know what they're talking about. Talk show hosts. Current and former government officials. Elected Senators and Representatives. Message board dumbasses. And they all seem to have different opinions about what was done in my name with my tax dollars. I'm looking for clarity, transparency, and evidence. Rumors and opinions serve the ends of injustice. Truth and facts serve the ends of justice.

If you think I was looking for a refund, then you're not very intelligent.

But then again, with a monikor and an avatar like that, what should any reasonable person expect?

[Blue State Bandit]

36. Disgusting, and inhumane things were done with my money.

I know enough to be sure of my convictions. I don't need a blow by blow account, unless I'm on the jury.

And as a Native American, who can only trace my family as far back as the infamous http://home.epix.net/~landis/histry.html">Carlisle Indian Industrial School, I think I have an idea of what I'm talking about.

[atreides1]

7. Another blinder wearer

Failing to release the photos could just as well add to the ranks of our enemies. It was Obama who campaigned on transparency, but he didn't point out that it would be limited.

Our enemies will use rumor and innuendo, which are much more useful for recruiting zealots, just look at the evangelical movement here in the US, they used rumor during the campaign, look at the shortage of ammunition because of the rumor that the administration is working on taking away gun rights?

Releasing the photos will show the world, both our allies and enemies that we have stumbled, but we are willing take responsibility for our mistake and do what is right in the eyes of the law.

Continuing to cover it up, by using BS excuses will only provide more recruits for those who would see the US destroyed.

The Tali ban will kill American soldiers on the battlefield no matter what, Al-Qaida will continue to target civilians, not releasing the photos won't stop them, but it will help them make their point that the US and the West only use their laws when convenient.

[Blue State Bandit]

17. And rumors with new pictures will help how?

Releasing the photos will show the world, both our allies and enemies that we have stumbled, but we are willing take responsibility for our mistake and do what is right in the eyes of the law.

Wrong.

Obama going to Europe and admitting that we have stumbled, going to Egypt and saying we are willing to do what is right, and allowing for the exposure of Bush officials involved in pushing this policy will "show the world".

Releasing more pictures will do one thing, add fuel to the hatred of America.

A picture is worth a thousand words, but it's never the same thousand words for everybody.

[crimsonblue]

72. i call bullshit.

I say Obama should release the pictures in Egypt. He needs to stand up there next to a big screen displaying vile acts of abuse. He needs to make it absolutely clear that this will not be accepted in our country and that the perpetrators are being arrested and the full weight of the law will come down on whomever contributed to this atrocity. Only by being truthful, showing genuine remorse, and making actual actions to prosecute those responsible can America regain its standing in the world.

[Blue State Bandit]

98. And if a special prosecutor is not named...

within the next year, I will be singing with the chorus, just as I am today.

So what exactly is the "Bull Shit" your calling here? Does anyone here know anything about the Islamic Faith? They would freak out if Obama came to Egypt and spoke of regret with abused Muslims on a jumbo tron behind him. There would be riots in the streets, and people will die.

As for Obama, he would be lucky if he made it to the airport. This is probably the most thoughtless idea I've ever heard.

[mmonk]

11. A little simplistic and insulting.

I don't want to see them, I want the American people to see them because millions of them are hopelessly propagandized and are a threat to my well being as well as yours when they vote.

[Blue State Bandit]

22. Again... "If you don't know me by now..."

Unless...

1)these pictures show something more than torture, like, proof that the program was specifically designed and executed to force false confessions for use in domestic propaganda, then releasing these photos amount to nothing more a than voyeuristic blood-lust that would ultimately prove our enemy's point for us. That we are a sick and twisted society, and we "get off" on scenes of torture and humiliation.

2)one of those pics has Cheney in a leather cowboy git up, riding Bush dressed as the gimp, rustling naked Iraqi's,


...I doubt you this will achieve your desired effect.

If they didn't see it in 2004, what makes you think they will see it now?

[mmonk]

74. Because the mainstream media is addressing the issue now

instead of just the blogs. To prevent "gratuitous violence" the people need to know "gratuitous violence" is being done in their name in violation of the laws of this country and international laws and standards.

[Blue State Bandit]

97. And they have been doing it...

without the "help" of another picture dump.

You just proved my point.

[Mari333]

13. oh dear oh dear

release the photos.

[Blue State Bandit]

21. Why? The 2004 series don't do it for you...

any more?

[Mari333]

25. because i prefer truth over coverups.

and i dont like to stick my head in the sand when it comes to the truth.

[Blue State Bandit]

38. Cover up what?

Anyone who does not believe that America tortured inocent people, as well as guilty people, ain't going to be convinced by more pictures.

This argument is like saying someone is not a murderer untill you get to watch him do it, and then you get to show all your friends, and they get to show theirs.

This is a sick excuse. We know what happened, why do we have to keep reliving it over, and over, and over, and over......

[onenote]

15. Should all crime scene photos be released to the public

Should pictures of the victims of rape, or murder, or other violent crimes be made public, posted for all to see in the newspapers or on the Internet? If a police officer sexually abuses a person in his custody, should photos showing that abuse be made widely available?

Is there a distinction between the torture pictures because the persons committing the abuses were claiming to act under the color of law while a cop beating the holy crap out of someone or raping a prisoner isn't? And if that's the distinction, why is release of photos not appropriate in the latter situation but appropriate in the former.

Asking these as serious questions for discussion, not to start a war.

[Blue State Bandit]

19. I agree. Like a crime scene video.

Like security video of a murder. We see the culprit, we see the victim, we see the weapon. Outside of the courtroom, what purpose does seeing the bloody details serve other than the curiosity of the observer?

Nothing. It satisfies perverse depraved minds, and sick pseudo-sexual fantasies.

[Luminous Animal]

27. We are not all complicit in every crime.

But, as U.S. citizens, we are all complicit in torture and, as a result of the pro-torture PR campaign, increasing enured to its use. In May of 2004, 63% of U.S. citizens polled said torture is never acceptable (s/polls/torture_poll_040527.html). By May of 209 50% of the U.S. public now believe that the use of torture is a necessary evil (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/06/poll-dont-investigate-torture-techniques/).

[Blue State Bandit]

35. As was so aptly put up thread, we did "pay for it"...

I didn't vote for it, support it, or do it, but that don't exsolve us in the eyes of the world.

Colateral damage works both ways, be it in New York or Kabul, be the instruments Hell Fires from drones, or Donkey bombs.

[onenote]

76. taxpayers in NY paid for the NY prisons that were sued by female inmates

alleging sexual abuse by guards. Should photos of the abused prisoners be made available to NY taxpayers over the Internet?

[Luminous Animal]

84. If photos exhisted...

surely the prosecution would reveal them to the court. In the case of government sanctioned torture, the U.S. public is the court. We not only have the right to know, what has been done in our name, but we have the obligation to know.

There is a reason why prosecutors try to suppress pictorial evidence. They can sway a jury like no words can.

In May 2004, 63% of the U.S. population believed that torture was unacceptable in any circumstance. Now, inn May of 2009, 50% believe that torture is either acceptable or a necessary evil.

In the 5 years since the last photos were released, Americans went from being outraged to being blasé. This has been a result of a well run PR campaign to turn torture into "enhanced interrogations" and the tortured into Homeland Security assets.

We have become so corrupt as a nation that there is no outrage when an ex-VP admits to torture. The PR has succeeded in conditioning us to believe that the torture is benign under the tender care of medical personnel, that its effects are temporary, that it is no worse that a frat hazing...

We need these images to shake, to the core, those who have, in the past 5 years, bought into this pablum.

[Blue State Bandit]

100. Because they think that the pictures...

of those being tortured were giving up actionable intel that saved millions of American lives. Of course we are finally beginning to see documented proof that this was bull shit.

This is why it's no longer about the pictures, it's about the documents that were used to justify these heinous acts, and the lack of actionable intel that was gained, and the security that was lost, and the true reasons behind the use of torture.

Was Cheney trying to force false confessions about an Iraq/AQ connection? Or about an Iraqi nuclear program? Were they going to use such taped confessions in a coordinated Bush administration/FAUX News domestic propaganda campaign? If unchecked, by us, would the torture campaign have been used domestic ly against peace activists, bloggers, or any other perceived threat to the power of the "permanent republican majority"?

These are the next questions we need answered if you really want to change public opinion. Because if we give those who fell for that PR campaign you referenced more pictures without the documents that facilitated the crimes depicted, they will see only terrorists that "deserve it" and nothing will change.

[Blue State Bandit]

99. Excellent point.

n/t

[EFerrari]

18. Mother of all strawmen Now open government is a guilty pleasure.

lol

[Blue State Bandit]

20. It's called overkill.

[EFerrari]

28. No, it's called the free flow of informaton, crucial to any democracy.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

69. Right. And insults are not arguments but they do seem to be

what most people holdng your opinion have today.

[Odin2005]

115. Pics of kids being sodomized is "free flow of information"?

Where I come from that would be considered Child Pornography of the worst kind. :puke:

[voc]

90. Exactly...

Why show the humiliation of these people? You said in your OP what I wasn't able to yesterday. That is what bothers me, the only thing that bothers me, the viewing of thses pics will only satisfy the curiosity while humiliating those who were victims. It isn't necessary, and people simply don't care. Well said.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

24. Ridiculous

Being on the side of Liz and Dick Cheney is a place I don't care to be. If I didn't know any better I might have thought that Liz Cheney joined DU and wrote this.

[Blue State Bandit]

101. You think Dick cares about the photos?

All he cares about is getting away with it. Remember the Shock Doctrine? It was all about instilling fear into the hearts of the enemy; so that they'd never think of opposing you or they would incur the wrath. I'm sure Cheney has his own scrap book.

Talk about offensive...

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. I don't have a taste for violence. I do have a taste for justice.

What I want is some assurance that these photos which would cause the rest of the world to completely hate us, are resulting in justice for the people who have committed the acts which justify that hatred.

It's not enough to suppress the photos because their release will inflame sentiment. The actions which the photos depict are a crime against humanity. Those responsible must be punished.

[Blue State Bandit]

103. Such is my wish...

to achieve the justice we seek, and begin the healing. Just publishing gory pictures aren't enough.

As I have stated up thread, I support releasing cropped images of the culprits. I support identifying the victims and offering relief, even if they request to use the pictures in their defense (except in the cases of top tier AQ leadership).

You are correct that "It's not enough to suppress the photos because their release will inflame sentiment." But it is my hope that the release of these photos could be made unnecessary by the release of the documentation that surrounds them.

I'm just perplexed that most here feel that all I want to do is cover up a crime.

I want to protect the innocent, and crush the guilty.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[dorkulon]

34. Yeah, gee, leave something to the imagination!

That way I can fill in the details with my own sick fantasies!

Give me a break. This isn't about getting our jollies.

[nichomachus]

37. Self-gratification? What bullshit. Peddle that crap elsewhere. n/t

[Javaman]

39. Yes, towns people living near the concentration camps during WWII

had to bear witness to their willful ignorance at the end of the war by being marched through them and forced to gaze upon their governments insanity whether or not they agreed with it. As a result Germany today, even though they have asshole skinhead Nazi's, has no stomach for that bullshit anymore.

Same with us. Every single American should be forced to gaze upon the filth that moron* and his room full of dopes pushed upon the world under the banner of America.

Whether or not you supported moron* we are all complicit in the crime.

We arrogant Americans desperately need to be humbled and humiliated for the evil we have spread in the world, especially after the past 8 years.

[Blue State Bandit]

47. We have been gazing for 5 years now.

At some point, you have to give the victims back there dignity, and publishing photos of their humiliation, when plenty of evidence already exists in the public domain, is nothing less that what the photos were originally intended for.

Remember, the reasonings for the pics was just as much part of the humiliation as the torture itself.

Releasing more is wrong, if only because doing so completes the sick modus-operandi of the program itself.

They feared that their family and friends would see these pics, and now you want to follow thru with the threats leveled by those sycophants that mistreated them in the first place?

Fucking outrageous!

[Javaman]

68. Release the photos. period.

let the American people judge for themselves. Let them see the evil in the most direct disgusting fashion. We the people allowed this to happen, we the people have to bear the brunt of the responsibility.

We are not further shaming those who were tortured by releasing the photos. How in gods name can the humiliation of torture be made worse??

If I were tortured, would want the world to see what the US did to me in the name of ignorance and fear.

We are a shameful people using excuses to protect ourselves from our own humiliation.

Release the photos.

[Blue State Bandit]

106. "How can the humiliation of torture be made worse?"

In the same period, reporter Seymour Hersh, who helped uncover the scandal, said in a speech before an ACLU convention: "Some of the worse that happened that you don't know about, ok? Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men ... . The women were passing messages saying 'Please come and kill me, because of what's happened.'

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001218842

Do you know anything about honor in Islamic society? It's bad enough that these people were tortured, having their pictures taken during their humiliation was a "force multiplier". The act of being tortured was humiliation of self, the pictures threatened to humiliate their entire clan.

Talk about ignorance?

[shadowknows69]

77. +1

[Raineyb]

40. Watching 24 is watching gratuitious violence

Seeing these pictures makes it real because unfortunately, too many people are perfectly willing to downplay the torture unless there are horrific pictures around as a counter.

Calling these pictures gratuitous is frankly offensive.

[Blue State Bandit]

102. I don't watch 24.

There are plenty of pictures.

And if you are offended because I wish that we could get to the frog marching without more pictures of human beings being tortured and humiliated, then I guess you just going to have to be offended.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

41. Most people here could give two shits about the people who were actually tortured.

They just want to burn Bush. That's what it's about. And while that is a worthwhile cause, it'd help to be honest about it.

[Blue State Bandit]

43. Thee most honest statement on this thread.

They will burn down the house, to kill the rat in the bread box.

It sounds vaguely familiar.

And I will have no part in that.

[Raineyb]

45. Speak for yourself

I don't give a damn who makes excuses for it. Burn all of them if they think this is acceptable. I said it was wrong then and it's still wrong now. Pretending it wasn't horrific by hiding the photos doesn't change any of that.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

48. So I ask again...

What have you done to assist the people who were victimized by this policy?

[Blue State Bandit]

55. Voted for Obama!

And I have gone to Washington multiple times, starting with the Basement Hearings before Abu-Ghriab.

I was the first to call for the Impeachment of Bush on C-Span, During an interview of David Swanson in the spring of 2004.

That is such a republicanesque comment:

Question my integrity? How about I question you judgment?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

58. Well, then you have actually done something.

And I have a huge amount of respect for you for doing it.

[Blue State Bandit]

104. Thank you...

and sorry, I got so used to defending myself from just about every commenter I've attracted, that I thought you were after me too.

Please accept my apology.

[redqueen]

46. Pat yourself on the back for sounding like a RW radio host.

:thumbsup:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

49. It's a simple question.

What are you doing to assist the people who were victimized by this policy? I'm sure your hand-wringing is very reassuring to them.

[redqueen]

51. You didn't ask a question. You did a Hannity impersonation.

Brilliant job, btw.

Enjoy your baiting.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

53. Well then here is the question.

It's a simple question, and one which should not require too much thought to answer:

What have you, personally, done to aid the victims of this policy, who you claim to care so much about?

[redqueen]

54. "Whom"

And like I said... enjoy your baiting.

I don't do this. :hi:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

57. I know.

Simple. In answer to the question, "What have I done to aid those abused by this horrible policy implemented by my own government?" your answer is...

Nothing. Nothing at all.

[redqueen]

60. You really should apply for a job on one of those RW talk shows.

You'd fit right in.

:thumbsup:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

62. Unfortunately I don't think they accept applications from unreconstructed hippies. n/t

[redqueen]

64. ...

:rofl:

[Blue State Bandit]

107. Can't answer the question? I have a thought....

maybe you should learn a bit about Islamic society, in particular, the role of honor in Islamic society. And when you read about women who are victims of rape, who are killed by their own family members because they bring dishonor to their family, you might understand what I'm talking about.

Every night I pray for justice. I dream of Bush officials in orange jumpsuits waddling off to Super-Max. But I'm willing to do it the hard way if it means sparing their victims the humiliation of having to face their communities after these pictures are published.

The disgust I express her, up thread, and in the OP, was not meant to be aimed at somebody's post supporting the release. I was airing my disdain for the group think that this is the only way, and pointing out that many will find some sick kind of entertainment from these photos.

I didn't come here to preach moral certitude, but to offer a better way to our common goal. But if this is how you treat those who disagree with you, by accusing them of being Right Wingers, then maybe you should look in a mirror.

[redqueen]

44. Republicans are still claiming these methods work.

Still defending them. Saying they keep us safe.

[Blue State Bandit]

50. For all of you....

At some point, you have to give the victims back there dignity, and publishing photos of their humiliation, when plenty of evidence already exists in the public domain, is nothing less that what the photos were originally intended for.

Remember, the reasonings for the pics was just as much part of the humiliation as the torture itself.

Releasing more is wrong, if only because doing so completes the sick modus-operandi of the program itself.

They feared that their family and friends would see these pics, and now you want to follow thru with the threats leveled by those sycophants that mistreated them in the first place?

Fucking outrageous!

The republicans started this travesty, and you all (most) seem hell bent on fulfilling the interrogators threats of letting the world see the victims humiliation.

You are so blind to the role you are playing in fulfilling the promise of "Shock and Awe", and I am ashamed of all, in both parties, for this misjudgment.

Sick.

[Marr]

56. That is fucking disgusting.

I can dismiss your previous arguments as thin attempts to justify a political decision. I've even become enured to the tired old excuse of protecting "the troops'".

But actually hiding behind the *victims* of these torture programs is beyond sickening.

[Blue State Bandit]

61. I hide behind nothing!

Read the fucking first round of memos, the pictures were part of the humiliation, the threats that family and neighbors would see them if they did not talk.

We have enough evidence to have Bush and Cheney SHOT!

What the fuck do you want?

[Marr]

65. The same thing you wanted until the moment your hero changed his tune,

and you dutifully fell in line like a Bushbot, I assume.

I want pressure on Congress to spur them into a real investigation of our national torture programs. I want a special investigator. That's not going to happen unless the political will is there, and that political will is fueled by things like photographs.

Sweeping things like this under the rug is the path to covering the whole thing up.

[Jax]

70. EXCELLENT posts Marr, you nail it here

and with number 56.

Spot fucking on.

:thumbsup:

[Blue State Bandit]

79. And you know what my position was... how?

are you a mind reader? For your info, I was for the release of the 2004 series, and have been against this new release FROM THE START!

Your all or nothing mindset, that prosecutions can not be accomplished without publicly humiliating the victims of atrocities, even though there is enough evidence to send a Pontiff to Dante's Inferno is just perplexing.

I want pressure, I want special prosecutors, I want convictions, and long prison terms. But the release of these pictures to the public, is a bridge too far.

And as for the Bush bot bs... just...

Name calling is soooo rethuglican.

Cry me a fucking river.

[Marr]

83. Not a mind reader, no-- I just have a nose for bullshit.

You were for the 2004 photo release, but against this one. On principle. Uh-huh.

Just out of curiosity, why didn't your current reasoning (defending the dignity of torture victims by covering it up) apply in 2004?

[Blue State Bandit]

85. Cause, 2004 opened our eyes.

I got it, as did the rest of the world.

The photos were among thousands turned over by the key "whistleblower" in the scandal, Specialist Joseph M. Darby. Just a few that were released to the press sparked the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal last year, and the video images are said to be even more shocking.

-snip-

In the same period, reporter Seymour Hersh, who helped uncover the scandal, said in a speech before an ACLU convention: "Some of the worse that happened that you don't know about, ok? Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men ... . The women were passing messages saying 'Please come and kill me, because of what's happened.'

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001218842

Please... Come and kill me? Do you understand?

And, just so you know, once I saw the first round of photos, I didn't need any more convincing.

[Forkboy]

89. "name calling is soooo rethuglican."

So is the very direct implication that people who want these released are doing so for their own jollies.

You want your fix, go rent a Hostel.

Good thing name calling is so beneath you, Sport. :thumbsup:

[Blue State Bandit]

108. If you have no fix to want...

then why get you back up over it?

It's called word play, as in, go watch a movie about fictional characters being tortured by fictional characters if you feel so disposed to indulge such "tastes". Nowhere do I claim that everyone promoting the release are sadists, or such. But to flat out ignore that we as a nation allow for the lionization of violence is down right blind.

And if your entire point is to whack me around over one line, then you seem much more adept at the "Hannity like tactics" you referred to.

Seems to be allot of projection going on around here.

[Forkboy]

110. You got the moves down, man!

It's called word play, as in, go watch a movie about fictional characters being tortured by fictional characters if you feel so disposed to indulge such "tastes".

The whole idea that people want to see this stuff to get their jollies is exactly what you're implying. It's a bullshit concept from the get go, one that Hannity and the like would leap at (and have). Why even equate the wanting of these pics released to that in the first place? How did that connection enter your mind when thinking of the people who want these released? Try being honest with yourself, because I doubt you will be with me.

And if your entire point is to whack me around over one line, then you seem much more adept at the "Hannity like tactics" you referred to.

"Watch this drive". "Mission Accomplished."

Tell me, did you whack Bush around for either of those "one lines"? Bet you did. So, want to play the hypocrite as well?

Seems to be allot of projection going on around here.

Yes, there does.

[Blue State Bandit]

114. You act as though I had you in mind...

when I wrote the piece; as if it was a comment to your OP. All you are doing here is pissing on my piece. And your aim is wonten for a grip.

"Mission Accomplished" = blatant lie that was followed by the deaths of thousands of American soldiers.

"Watch this drive" = the basic ineptitude of cowboy diplomacy, personified, as practiced by George Bush, that was then followed by the deaths of thousands of American soldiers. Oh yeah and a busted attempt to be funny (OK, you may have got one here).

These quotes you've supplied were not "word plays" on the tail of some obscure (self deprecating) blog meant to convey a point about how some will find entertainment value from the suffering depicted in these pictures. The least you could have done was pick a quote that is anywhere near comparable, like "Bring 'em on". I might have had a harder time defending my choice of ending. (Now that I get to see it again, I meant "Hostel" , not "a Hostel", but I don't think that will change much).

Maybe you don't understand how Honor works in other cultures?

Maybe you don't understand why violence sells in America?

Maybe you don't understand that this OP is my opinion (as was stated).

Maybe you just don't give a shit?

I don't know, but if all you want to do is act holier-than-thou, call me Hanniy-esque, and mix apples and torque converters (sorry, your quote comparison is beyond comparison) then that is just a shame.

Peace and good luck.

[redqueen]

66. People are getting emotional.

That makes them start acting irrationally.

I guess it's only human... but one would hope that people would eventually grow out of it.

Perhaps some of these acting out the most dramatically were tortured themselves, or something.

Either way... eh. Most of us can just agree to disagree without resorting to theatrics. It's not as if some text-based "proof" of one's lefty super-righteousness is going to earn anyone a spot on some "compassionate activist hall of fame" or anything.

Some people here just take themselves soooooooo very seriously. If not for the subject matter it would be quite hilarious, really.

[Blue State Bandit]

86. Though we disagree, you're absolutely right.

If it was the tapes of Abu-Zubidah, I wouldn't give a shit, but most of these pic are of innocent people, swept up in the madness of the Bush crimes.

I just wish that we could mead out justice without trampling on the dignity of the victims.

This is my soul point.

[Marr]

52. I can't believe so many people here are willing to twist themselves into knots

to say that photographs of a government torture program should be buried.

[Blue State Bandit]

87. You are sooo missing my point.

Do you, personally, need more graphic photos to keep your attention on forcing Obama to support, or step aside, from war crimes prosecutions?

I don't.

Put it this way. 100 pictures of a crime will convict just as well as 10,000. This is not a single tape of Rodney King getting beat down, this is the publication of the humiliation of thousands of individual people. Not dead people, in most cases, but people who still have to find a way to live with the stigma that will befall them when their nightmares are shared with the world.

How would you feel if you were one of thousands raped, sodomized, and humiliated on tape, and a case was building against the perps. Would you want everybody to see your humiliation, if the perps could be convicted on the small percentage of pics in evidence already shown to the entire world?

What's the point?

[Mudoria]

59. I don't want to see them nor do I disagree with the President's decision.

[Blue State Bandit]

63. Thank you.

But some here only see red.

[Swamp Rat]

67. Straw Man

[Blue State Bandit]

88. Out of respect, please follow this discussion.

These are not flag draped coffins. This is Rich Pearl-esque.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

73. Exactly. eom

[Blue State Bandit]

80. If it was necessary, which it is not.

Fucking Clown Shoes.

We have plenty of pics.

[TexasObserver]

78. Stop using "we," when you only speak for YOU.

WE are not you, so WE don't share your personal opinion that WE don't need have access to the photos. And just because WE think disclosure is required, that doesn't mean WE intend to look at them.

In short, your logic is not logic at all, but a justification for your personal desire not to see the photos or hear about them. There is a simple solution to that: Don't read about it.

You don't want to see them? Exercise a little self restraint, but don't expect others to gleefully stick their heads in the sand with you.

[Blue State Bandit]

92. How about "THEY" as in...

the families of the victims?

In the same period, reporter Seymour Hersh, who helped uncover the scandal, said in a speech before an ACLU convention: "Some of the worse that happened that you don't know about, ok? Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men ... . The women were passing messages saying 'Please come and kill me, because of what's happened.'

How about the victims them selves.

Many of my critics here (this thread) either accuse me of defending O, or covering for B, but all anyone shows me is the deep red filter of their own view.

It's "Damn the world, as long as we look just".

Where is the Muslim that sees my point? Or the Christian? Or the Pacifist? Or, the Democrat?!!!!!

Don't you think, that if we could buck recent American history (check), and embrace our unique advantage -the balance between privacy and justice, practiced occasionally in this country- we could achieve, both, the one common consensus here? The repudiation of the entire class of Nixon/Ford's administration.

But if you don't feel up to the task....

Enjoy you edutainment.

[TexasObserver]

96. Disclosure is necessary because heinous misdeeds were done in our name.

You want to wring your hands over "what will they think?"

That's a point of view I find lacking. It welcomes cover ups and hides the only real evidence.

I disagree with those who think, as you do (including the entire Republican party) that hiding from the truth makes sense. You don't have the moral high ground. You have the moral low ground. And as if your speaking in one voice with the right was not enough, you join them in their attack upon those who seek full disclosure as being driven by a personal and salicious need.

[Blue State Bandit]

109. So you assume that I want to hide crimes?

Moral certitude is no excuse when you don't care to work to find better means to an equitable end. I seek a better means, and you seem to not give a shit about the means, as long as you get your end. Burning down the house to kill the rat in the bread box.

"Only Socrates knew, after a lifetime of unceasing labor, that he was ignorant. Now every high-school student knows that. How did it become so easy?"

Allan Bloom

I don't take kindly being called a republican, either.

[chrisa]

81. Same crap. Yawn.

We're all sickos who want to see the torture photos for fun (sarcasm). You were all saying the same thing yesterday too.

And if the crimes are "out of the bag," how come nobody is being prosecuted for them? How come nobody cares?

[JVS]

82. Yes. A public that called for retribution and applauded shock and awe must see what they supported

[Blue State Bandit]

95. I have.

[Forkboy]

91. "You want your fix, go rent a Hostel."

You want to be taken seriously, don't use Sean Hannity like tactics when making a point.

[Blue State Bandit]

93. Innsanity stole that wit from the hard streets...

of the inner-city. And if you took offense, it's not because I wrote it. It's either because you got where I was comming from, or you liked Hostel.

[Forkboy]

94. The defense rests.

:rofl:

[varelse]

105. I want all the evidence released

ALL of it. And then I want to see the war criminals tried, convicted, and punished.

[TexasObserver]

111. Agreed. It's not complicated, is it?

And it's not hard to figure out what the progressive position is on this topic.

[varelse]

112. I can't express in words how disgusting I find it

that upholding the principles of rule of law and justice for all, values that are part of the foundation of our country, are now considered a partisan issue of "the left".

[ShortnFiery]

113. Simply YES! nt

[BlooInBloo]

116. According to DUers, you're an unpatriotic war criminal if you don't want to see them.

[varelse]

117. What is a "Hostel"?

And why are you accusing people of voyeurism merely because some of us want our nation to face the truth about US government-sponsored war crimes?