I'm a military spouse who wants the pictures released.

[Solly Mack]

I sincerely hope no one wants to accuse me of not having anything to lose - because if you think that you're full of shit.

I live on a military post in Europe. Military posts in Europe have been attacked before. I could very well be a target of any anger.

My husband has a target on his back whether those pictures get released or not.

Releasing them will cause anger - but then not releasing them will as well.

People will be angry because they will see the US as lying to them (will release, changed their minds)

They will wonder just what the US is hiding - and that unknown will cause anger.

Either way it can be used as a propaganda tool.

And the handy targets either way are the troops.

So if I have to be a target and if my husband wears the bullseye regardless, we'd rather be a target in the interest of transparency and accountability.

We don't want to die...and it's not about being noble....it's about holding government accountable. It's about letting the American people know what has been done in their name by their government.

People can agree or disagree on releasing the pictures - but don't ever accuse people who support their release of having nothing to lose....because I do.

[KittyWampus]

1. Sorry, releasing photographs doesn't hold anyone accountable.

[Solly Mack]

2. By themselves, no....but it could lead to more outrage and more demands

for accountability.

Not releasing them just hides them from view...out of sight, out of mind...that does nothing at all to advance accountability.

[Statistical]

5. Exactly.

[KittyWampus]

9. "lead to more outrage"? The outrage would then be leveled at Obama for releasing them

and should any large scale attacks occur, there would be media firestorm blaming him and his leadership.

So it's not about YOUR being willing to "have a target on your back".

It's about a bigger picture that includes a heck of a lot more than your need to shove America's face into those photos like some dog owners try and house train their pets.

I wish those who want the photos released could be more honest with themselves as to why.

BUSH/CHENEY caused the torture.

THEY inflamed Middle East with anti-American sentiment by doing it.

THEY endangered the troops by engaging in torture.

There's a time and place for releasing those photos.

[EFerrari]

13. When you mount an argument concluding that the struggle for an open government is dishonest

you really need to look at your own motives.

[Echo In Light]

17. +1

[Bluerthanblue]

22. where was that said? I completely missed it- if you

meaning the call to question why they claim to be so intent on the release of the photos- I don't think its EVER wrong to do some self evaluation, to check and see if we are actually fooling ourselves, or being manipulated-

I really DO believe most all here at DU desire and are struggling in our own way towards a more open government. We disagree on some of the steps and timing to getting there, but to say that only 'one' side wants open government is pretty arrogant and self righteous. imo.

[EFerrari]

38. It's accurate, not arrogant or self righteous, to point out

there is no legal basis to withhold those images or that you can't agree that they should be withheld as a proponent of open government.

And I was talking about an argument, not about a person. But, apparently, Thursday is now Name Calling Day on DU, so please carry on.

[Bluerthanblue]

46. did Obama say there was a 'legal reason' to not

release the photos? Or did he say he was choosing not to release them but to allow them to go back through the judicial system?

As for arrogant and self-righteous, if you are offended or feeling labeled, that's because you are choosing to wear the shoes.

If they don't fit, take them off for goodness sake.

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

49. Does Obama have to pronounce on the law before you recognize it as the law?

And, no, I'm not responsible for your rhetorical gestures, thanks.

[Bluerthanblue]

14. I respect Solly Mack's perspective, but your words are very

compelling.

I hadn't thought it through as thoroughly - but I believe you are correct. Everyone seems to want to frame this from a perspective of "what's it gonna do to me/mine"- It won't do any of us any good if we destroy ourselves in our rush to bring justice to the bush/cheney cabal. The evidence of their deeds exists. They are struggling to cover their asses- and distract the world from what was done, onto anything else. The outrage over Obama 'changing his mind' plays right into their hands- and we are only fueling it.

Thanks for your insight.

:hi:

[Solly Mack]

16. I didn't put the target on my back

Thanks, though

Cowards who tortured and those too afraid to prosecute torture did.

They put the target on everyone's back.

[Bluerthanblue]

25. are you putting a target on Obama's back when you

say "those too afraid to prosecute torture" or am I reading into your words Solly?

[Solly Mack]

26. Nothing I said put a target on anyone's back.

[Bluerthanblue]

27. what I'm asking is

are you saying that Obama's afraid to prosecute torture?

[Solly Mack]

29. I can't speak to Obama's motives...and fear can be a motive.

I do think a lot of people in government fear they will be named in some way and that's what keeps them from supporting prosecutions.

But that doesn't mean that's what motivates Obama...and I don't know that Obama would try and stop any prosecutions that are started, and until that time, it's kind of moot.

[Bluerthanblue]

31. Do you believe the reasons he gave for NOT releasing

the photos or not?

It's not 'moot' to me-

[Solly Mack]

34. It's a feel-good reason

No one wants to be seen as harming the troops, so who couldn't support protecting the troops? It's a talking point ("protect the troops") that can be used against Obama...he released the pictures, he's not protecting the troops. I understand all that.

But as the troops have a target on their back regardless (just by being where they are), it can't really be about protecting them can it? And as not releasing them can also be used as a propaganda tool, that doesn't really do much to protect the troops either.

Either way the coming anger that's implied by saying "to protect the troops" can be achieved by releasing them or not releasing them.

If you believe the pictures can be used as a propaganda tool to mount anti-American sentiment, then by saying you will releases them and then you don't, can't what will be now seen as a lie also be used as a propaganda tool to foster Anti-American sentiment?

For me, either way, the troops are a target.

And it also serves as another debate that detracts from the hear of the matter - continuing Bush's bullshit wars. Which is at the root of it all.... Bush gave us the increased Anti-American sentiment, the torture, the anger, the increased possibility of an another attack (we aren't safer because of Bush's war on terror)

My husband sees it as a pissing contest between Obama and the DoD - and he hopes Obama wins (and the pictures are eventually released) Obama said he would release the pictures and I think he will. And I support the release of those pictures.

[Bluerthanblue]

37. thanks

Solly Mack- I've always respected you, and didn't want to stop. I agree with you on all the important parts of this. I want the photos released, want our troops HOME- and want the killing and maiming everywhere to stop.

There are alot of things that have to be exposed and resolved. I believe Obama really does want the same things we do. I'm not giving up on him yet- There are many more problems being dumped in his lap than anyone expected, and this is one very angry, reactive world we're living in. but I don't have to tell you that.

Thanks again-

peace~

[EFerrari]

50. It may not even be between Obama and DoD but Obama v the Republcans.

This way, the "protect the troops" meme can be emptied out of its force and Obama can be seen as properly protective. That's the theory, anyway.

[Solly Mack]

51. Excellent point!

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. He has it, by the nature of the job

but I am sure you knew that.

[Hepburn]

35. It was the ACLU viz the FOIA that got the photos ordered released.

Obama was NOT involved in the matter at all ~~ until he involved himself voluntarily in that court case.

[Hepburn]

3. This is how this controversy hits me:

What was done ~~ the torture ~~ is like a horrible infection. With something like that, there are basically two choices. One is do nothing, cover it with a bandaid and hope to hell it goes away and does not fester. The other is open it up, treat it and clean it out ~~ apply meds until gone and guard against it coming back and infecting the entire system.

I prefer the latter and not the former...and I stand with you and hope that you and your family are always safe.

:hug:

[Solly Mack]

6. That's exactly how I think of it....a festering wound

:hug:

[Hepburn]

10. Yep....

...from the beginning when facts started to come out about "bad" acts anywhere, that is how I saw it.

I do think that if there had been complete disclosure on the first round of any kind of mistreatment of any prisoner, enemy combatent, anyone in a war zone and a trail leading back to DC was found, we would never be discussing the problem of the release of these photos today. The fear of disclosure, IMO, would have stopped this sickness long ago.

The hiding and the secrecy, IMO, has allowed this sickness to fester, grow, and continue. The bandaid treatment, hiding and ignoring the problem most certainly has not worked.

JMHO

[Statistical]

4. I am a soldier (for another 5 months)....

who has deployed to both Iraq and Afghanistan and I want no DEMAND the photos be released.

Sure it may cause an increase in anti-American sentiment but sometimes you just need to come clean.
I am a realist. I understand their are consequences for actions.

By not releasing the photos it is continuing the Bush legacy.

Let the sun shine on the bad deed. It should make AMERICANS sad that it happened in their name, and then ANGRY, and then demands that IT NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN.
It should be made clear in no uncertain terms if you do this or as a Congressman allow this to happen you go to jail. Period. No shadow governments. No more.

By hiding the issue that will never happen. It will be something we know happens but we don't talk about it. As long as we look the other way we can pretend it isn't going on.

[Solly Mack]

7. I agree

[Mari333]

19. amen ! nt

[kentuck]

8. One thing for certain...

it would have been the front page story. It would have taken all the attention off Dick Cheney and put it back on the troops, Rumsfeld, the war in general, etc. The President made the right call at this time. These photos are like an ace in the hole - they can be brought out at any time.

[Solly Mack]

12. Oh, the lie of the "few bad apples" would have been brought back up

I agree


but to really get to the heart of that lie we must hold the Bush administration accountable

The "few bad apples" lie is the easiest way out...and cowards will take it.

Also, the pictures are so widespread in their location and that suggest a systemic problem...which can be directly laid at Bush's feet.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Withholding the evidence to "protect the troops" is an absurd argument.

Our government is sending more troops to Afghanistan to bomb and kill. It is delaying withdrawal of the troops from the country they devastated. Now, the argument is that they don't want to investigate torture because it will endanger the troops they have sent, and are sending, to kill more.

It speaks to the mentality of the bosses that they believe that the people in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the rest of the world will become more angry unless we lie to them by omission.

[EFerrari]

15. This is the same argument people like Inhofe used to try to shut down

this discussion four years ago.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. The ignorant savages will get the wrong idea if they are allowed to see what "civilized" people do.

Picking up the White Man's Burden is ever so troublesome and misunderstood by the beneficiaries of our attempts to lead them into joyful servitude.

[Solly Mack]

21. It really is absurd and for the reasons you name

but as that is the popular argument - protecting the troops - I answered it from my perspective.

[Mari333]

18. and I am the mother of 2 soldiers who wants the pictures released

anything that will wake up the public to these goddamned wars and unending military bullshit is fine by me.

[Solly Mack]

24. and that gets to the heart of it

expose the crimes, expose the lies...get to the heart of the crimes and the lies that gave us Bush's bullshit wars

[Echo In Light]

28. That it does, indeed

[Soylent Brice]

20. 5th rec

[Stargazer09]

30. I'm a military spouse, too

My husband is deployed in the Middle East right now. I know he's a target, regardless of whether or not the pictures will be released anytime soon.

Personally, I think President Obama is playing mind games with Cheney, et. al. right now. He's trying to see what the former administration will do, and he's holding his cards close to his chest. Cheney knows that he's guilty as sin in all of this, and the thought of being prosecuted is probably scaring him quite a bit (which is why he keeps coming out of his cave to criticize Obama). The more he says publicly, the more evidence that can be used against him later.

I know that this is a huge, festering wound. But I think that there's more going on behind the scenes that we aren't hearing about. I think the pictures will be released eventually, but the timing has to be right. It could very well be that Obama wants to get his SCOTUS nominee through the confirmation process before he tackles the culpability of the GOP in the torture scandal.

[Solly Mack]

32. I sure do hope so!!

Thank you for replying!!!

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Zywiec]

36. Your husband has a target on his back

By being stationed in Europe?

Who in Europe is targeting American Soldiers? A couple links to Soldiers being shot in Europe would be insightful.

:patriot:

[Solly Mack]

39. I didn't say that. I said that being a soldier puts a target on his back

and that attacks against military post in Europe have occurred before...and they have. And I applied that to me.

By saying so I am allowing for the possibility that it could happen again. And it could

And my husband deploys (and has deployed) so let's not pretend he hasn't been in danger shall we?

[Zywiec]

44. I was stationed in Europe as well

and lived "on the economy", not on a secure base as you.

I never once felt like I had a target on my back, and don't recall any other Soldier expressing that feeling.

It must be awful that you need to always look over your shoulder.

My guess is more people die of auto accidents there than from being a target of anger.

[Solly Mack]

47. I'm speaking to the argument of soldiers attacked out of anger

because of the pictures. Which isn't my argument but the argument used to not release the pictures. So if you don't like that argument, take it up with those making it.

Soldiers are targets regardless in a time of war...that's what I said.

And I never once said I was walking around looking over my shoulder. You, and only you, said that.

And, FYI, it was a "secure" base that was bombed before (2 in fact)...the Frankfurt PX was bombed back in the late 80's, as was the Rhein-Main headquarters.

And I still don't walk around in fear even though I know it's possible that such things could happen again.

Walking around in fear wasn't the point at all...and I suspect you know that.

Just the opposite , in fact... not giving in to fear

[ShortnFiery]

62. My best friend second to my husband is a French Citizen.

She tells me that America is not held in high esteem, i.e., massive understatement.

Albeit there's always the follow up sentiment, "That doesn't extend to individual Americans" ... the resentment is still out there.

All it takes is "a few crazies" to act out.

Despite Obama's charisma, The United States of America is both feared and resented by the rest of the world powers, to include our buddies in Europe.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

40. According to some assholes that makes you a sick person. nt

[Solly Mack]

43. I'll wear any label anyone wants to give me

It's their mirror...

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

45. Good for you. There is nothing wrong with wanting the truth to come out. nt

[CRK7376]

41. As a long time Soldier

and Officer, I despise what Bush did to our country. We had a tough time between US/Allies and the Muslim world before the initial Abu Ghrib photos were released and came to light. After seeing the light an even bigger target was place on our back and chests thanks to Bush/Cheney torture and photos. More outrage and anger will be released by the world and some of that, much of that outrage, will be violent aimed directly at our Service personnel. Sucks to be us, but as a volunteer military, we knew going in that violence happens, you are not seen as the great liberator of the world and that other people and nations don't like you. Releaseing new photos will make it that much harder, but they need to be released. Don't hide the evidence, admit it, try to fix and stop the torture, Gitmo, and all the other issues Bushco created for our country. Hiding the damage will only make it worse. Bring it to light, admit your failings and don't allow it to happen again. Though I do worry all the time about what will happen to my Soldiers if we were to be captured.....

[Solly Mack]

42. Thank you

The thought of his being captured is high on my list of things that cause me to just shut down.

[azul]

48. Was increased violence and unending warfare their goal?

Just about every thing that the Bush administration did regarding military and clandestine actions has caused more violence and spread extremism. They had to have known the outcomes of these actions. They were completely predictable. Was the plan to stir up much of the world to make enemies to fight because we had not enough left to justify the huge military industry? And increased fear and conflict then lets the executive assume special powers?

IMO, to stop this violence now will take change in US policy that stops provocations, shows that we have made mistakes and have corrected them, and can demonstrate to the world that the media is keeping the US public honestly informed of their military and intelligence services operations. By that the people would have to demonstrate that corporations were not running the government, that they were in charge of their representative's policies and actions.

[seabeyond]

59. admit it, dont allow it to happen again. this is the way in life in all things

if we want to heal with anything this is the formula. to deny, pretend, hide, lie never fixes anything.

this isnt news to the irqais, they already know. they were reporting on this a long long time ago.

i agree with you

[Mnemosyne]

52. May you and your hubby remain safe, Solly.

:hug:

One dear friend's husband and two of her three children in Iraq/Afghanistan. Another dear friend's son shipped over in Jan. with many other 'kids', friends of my daughter, that I have watched grow up in this small rural town.

They agree that the photos need to be released.

[Solly Mack]

55. Thank you, Mnemosyne

:hug:'s to you, your friends, and their families. Safe passages. Safe returns.

[Mnemosyne]

63. Namaste, dear Solly.

:hug:

[Sheltiemama]

53. Thank you for sharing your perspective.

I'm being sincere. You come at this from a place very few of us here do.

[jonnyblitz]

54. k & r!

:hi:

[Wednesdays]

56. K&R

:kick:

[cwydro]

57. Good for you.

And thanks for posting this.

K & R.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Solly as a former Navy wife I am with you

and I know people in the field right now

[ShortnFiery]

61. I'm a Army Veteran and the wife of a retired Marine who happens to agree with you 100%.

I know that neither my husband, nor I, when on Active Duty would have TORTURED. We would have reported such action up the chain of command.

I believe a number of soldiers did the foregoing to be "reassigned" or told to "keep silent."

We need to RELEASE these photos for the sake of the VAST MAJORITY of Morally Sound Troops who serve in the Middle East.

The Generals who helped "cover-up" these atrocities are still serving with their Secretary of State.

PEOPLE involved in torture BEGAN with "the leadership" all the way up the chain of command.

They need to be, at a minimum, fired and replaced with LEADERS who are not morally bankrupt.