Pilots are making $23K? - as reported on CNN

[question everything]

What is it about our society that pays millions of dollars to CEOs of... health insurance companies and airlines but mere pennies to the ones in whose hands we put our lives: doctors, pilots, fire fighters and police officers?

Northwest Airline had a CEO who left with his millions, went to a health insurance with more millions, then went to Delta and initiated a "merger" with NWA. Both airlines went through bankruptcies that included major concessions by the flight attendants, mechanics and pilots, while the CEOs got their bonuses of millions when they "successfully" got out of bankruptcy.

We need to pass a law that does not offer any tax benefits to companies when the highest paid employee makes more than 40x the lowest, or the average. It used to be like that until Reaganomics that brought us the waves of mergers and acquisitions during the 80s, when corporations increased their values by purchasing other companies and eviscerated them. When, in contrast to real entrepreneurs who do take a risk, Wall Street bankers made their millions, win or lose.

[TwilightZone]

1. According to a pilot who writes a column on salon.com, regional airlines start pilots...

at around $20k a year.

The co-pilot in the Buffalo crash was making just over $16,000 a year.

Hmm, co-pilot for regional airline or work at Burger King?

[Oregone]

2. Are they just part time?

A few flights a month?

[TwilightZone]

3. Nope.

They're full-time pilots.

Here's the column archive: http://dir.salon.com/topics/ask_the_pilot/

He's covered it a couple of times recently, but I don't remember which specific articles talked about the salaries and working conditions.

[Oregone]

5. Who, in their right mind, would take that job?

Better pay at Walmart

[northzax]

6. people who love to fly

more likely to be asked: who in their right mind would take that flight?

[Oregone]

9. I love a lot of things...

But if I can't feed my family and pay my mortgage doing it, its a non-option, no matter what my desire for adrenaline might be.

[MercutioATC]

10. More accurately, people who want to fly for a big airline.

That's where the money is.

Rookie pilots use minor league airline time to build hours in preparation for a job in the majors...where they'll make $150k/year and up.

[northzax]

11. yeah, but that's a dead end career right now

the majors aren't hiring anytime soon, at least not in sufficient numbers. to get to 150 plus, which is certainly possible flying 777s across the Pacific, for instance, is about 30 years seniority. and everyone starts at zero seniority when they switch airlines.

[MercutioATC]

12. True.

We have rookies at work who were working as or studying to be commercial pilots. They moved to air traffic control because there are no jobs flying.

[AngryAmish]

13. Plus they will be replaced by robots soon enough

[bdab1973]

16. Airline jobs are cyclical...

Every few years there's a rush on jobs, and you better be in the right place at the right time to get that gig at American or Southwest. For civilian-trained pilots, that means getting some experience flying at the regionals. You can build seniority fairly quickly at a regional....yes, the co made only $16K a year, but give her a couple years and she'll be making $35-40k...not rich, but about what many other Americans make. I had a friend who was a captain at a regional, and had worked there for about 7-8 years, and he was making around $65-70k a year...again, not a ton of money, but somewhat comfortable.

While it's true that the $150k+ group has a lot of seniority, it doesn't take long to pass the six-figure mark at the major airlines...about 3-5 years on average. A 5-year FO at Southwest will make slightly more than $100k a year. I don't know about you, but I'd be ok making that much money. A 10-year FO would make around $115K a year, although many at SWA will be in the process of moving into the left seat at that point.

Right now the airline job market is poor, mostly due to the economy (not as much growth in air travel) and the fact that the FAA passed a rule extending the mandatory airline pilot retirement age from 60 to 65....thus leaving a "jobs bathtub" for the next few years, if not a few more. Just a few years ago, airlines were hiring, and pre-9/11 there was a hiring boom. It just depends on the timing.

The bottom line in the Buffalo mishap is this...the pay and the schedule were NOT casual factors in the crash. Whether the copilot made $16k a year or $60k a year didn't mean a thing when she failed to notice the airspeed falling off, and failed to assist the pilot in executing proper stall recovery procedures. Ditto with the stick-pusher training...it wouldn't have made a difference, because whether an airplane has a stick pusher system or not, the stall recovery is the same...relax back-pressure, level the wings, max power and recover.

[question everything]

18. Might lack of sleep and red eye flight -

because the could not afford to live in NJ - have caused her to miss the stalling?

And while the pay did not have a direct cause for the crash, the fact that we put our lives in hand of people that make so little money is scary.

[Muttocracy]

22. that was one of the reasons I saw listed - both pilots violated airline rules

She was living in Seattle with her parents or something and couldn't afford a place in Newark (info on Buffalo News site)

I think the main pilot also slept at the airport?

[bdab1973]

28. Pilots live away from their jobs and commute all the time...

It's fairly routine. In fact, nothing was stopping her from getting a roommate and living closer to NJ...I've known several people that did that. The fact she lived in WA was her choice, and IMHO is a bit of an extreme commute...there had to have been inexpensive alternates somewhere between WA and NJ. I know that $16K isn't a lot of money, but I also have met a lot of ppl that have flown for regionals as well, and they all made it work.

I have a friend who was hired to Southwest, and lived in Colorado. His first domicile (for work) was Oakland, but he chose to remain in Colorado because he didn't want to move to CA. He recently bid last year to move his domicile to Dallas, TX, and now he lives in the DFW area and drives to work instead of commuting.

People, there ARE options out there. In any case, her $16K a year salary was likely just first year pay...airlines typically pay poorly the first year, but improve quickly. Her second year pay would likely be much more than $16K.

[bdab1973]

8. Lots of people...

Pay isn't everything to a pilot. Most people I know would do it for free if they could have a roof over their head and food on the table.

In any case, regional airlines are seen as a step up to the majors or to corporate jobs that pay far better. Starting pay at many major airlines isn't great (around $30-50k a year), but it rapidly gets better, with 5-year copilots making around the $100k a year mark and 10-year pilots making well over 100k a year.

[TwilightZone]

14. It's essentially a rite of passage.

They have to put in the time at the regionals to get a job at the bigs.

[question everything]

17. Or, as one commentator said: a cross guard (nt)

[yodoobo]

21. Any pilot that wants a career

Back when I was an aspiring pilot in the late 80's, the current rate of pay for a regional pilot was about $10k. It seems it's gone up some, but not much.

Essentially you have to live a few years in poverty building hours in a regional airline, before you have the experience to earn a real living at a major airline.

It was that way in the 80's. its still that way.

That among other reasons is why I changed my career path.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

15. Neo-Feudalism.

:woohoo:

[RamboLiberal]

19. Try both - before she moved to her parents home in Seattle

the co-pilot of this doomed flight was working in a coffee shop and flying for Calgon. As I said in another post your co-pilot could also be your waitperson.

[erpowers]

4. It Is Pretty Crazy

It is kinda crazy. I do not even know how many times more most CEOs make then what some pilots make. I think in some cases it is more than 100x more than pilots make. According to my calculations, which might be wrong the CEO of Wal-Mart makes about 100x more than pilots working at regional airlines. In addition, as far as I know Wal-Mart's CEO is not one of the highest paid CEOs. I think he makes about $1-$2 million. I think the CEOs making $20 million per year make close to 200x more than a regional pilot.

I guess there needs to be board members and CEOs who begin to say CEOs should not make so much money when other workers make so little.

However, in my opinion pay was not the main reason for the Buffalo crash. Maybe the lack of pay caused the airline not be able to get a better pilot and co-pilot, but the main problem was training. Those two should have been better trained. They barley knew what they were doing.

[bdab1973]

7. Stall recoveries are basic principles taught early...

Everyone keeps talking about training on the use of stick pushers and the copilot's pay...those are contributing factors, NOT causal factors. The CAUSE of this accident was two qualified and trained pilots failed to notice their airspeed was too low, and failed to adequately respond to it. Any pilot knows that on approach, airspeed is life and you better not let it slip out of your cross check...and every pilot knows that if the airplane starts to buffet and/or stall, you RELAX pressure on the yoke, add power and recover...instead apparently the pilot pulled back on the yoke, which actually killed them.

Maybe there were some side issues that affected the overall picture, but the primary cause is these two pilots failed to execute a basic maneuver taught in every level of pilot training, from flying two-seat trainers all the way up to flying turbine powered aircraft.

Last but not least...this was not the first time an accident like this occurred, nor will it be the last...pilots stalling the airplane on approach in the weather is a very common cause of fatal mishaps.

[miyazaki]

20. ya, i only got twenty hours in flight training long ago and

what really stands out in my memory is the slow flight and the stall recovery practice. scared the hell out of me
when that plane dropped like a rock. in fact i never was afraid of flying until i started learning how to fly.
i guess i just really started to see how fallible it all could be. but that probably was just me not trusting myself.
anyway i gave it up early.

[Initech]

23. Fuck CEOs, and fuck Reagonomics.

Seriously it's time to let go of Saint Reagan, he fucked us all. It sucks that the little guy cant get ahead and these CEOs are raking in hundreds of millions of dollars every year. Fuck 'em all.

[lonestarnot]

25. Second!

[Grinchie]

24. Michael Moore wasn't kidding

[Sigh Sister]

26. I'd like to add nurses to that list! n/t

[JI7]

27. i always thought Pilots made good money

not a lot like millions, but enough to live a comfortable upper middle class life.

23k is way too low for a pilot, especially if they are working full time. it should probably be at least 3 times that much and preferably more than that.

[bdab1973]

29. Most pilots do make decent salaries...

The copilot was a first-year hire...first year copilots tend to make pretty low pay...it's sort of "probationary" pay. Most pilots make fairly decent pay. At the regionals, average pay is probably $50-60K. At the major airlines, average pay is over $100K. Executive/business pilots tend to make $60-$100K a year or more.

[onethatcares]

30. well, we've seen how the pilots of the bankng industry have done

grab your asses and brace for the crash.

All I can think is; Are we all supposed to live in hovels and eat the crap they think we should? Jeebus, over 6,000,000 people are out of work and the auto makers just kicked another load of them in the nutz and told them to get out of the plane without a parachute. Meanwhile, bentleys are selling out and high end trips to exotic islands are booked solid if you're in the club.