Let's get a few things straight

[Mythsaje]

I don't like religion. But, of course, DU taught me not to be real thrilled with atheism either. Both tend to assume facts not (not) in evidence. There IS a God, there is NO God. Who cares? Not me. God doesn't matter. People matter. God can take care of itself.

Just because I question the decisions of the Democrats in power doesn't mean I'm a Republican. That's one of the things that brought me to DU in the first place--when I watched Republicans making excuses for Bush when I knew they'd be shitting great gold bricks if a Democrat did them. I despise hypocrisy. If I want to say that mandatory health insurance is a BUG-FUCK stupid idea, or that those Democratic Senators who voted against the credit card interest cap are a bunch of weasels, I will. Remember--dissent isn't only allowed, it's ENCOURAGED. And I'm hoping that doesn't just apply to Republican administrations.

I don't dislike Obama. I don't KNOW Obama. However, I'm sure as hell going to question his decisions if I don't like them. Torture photos, Military tribunals, Don't Ask Don't Tell. That's 0 for 3 Barack. Good thing this isn't baseball. If I'm criticizing anyone on the "left," (or the right, for that matter), it most likely means I DON'T LIKE WHAT THEY'RE DOING. Making it personal is an adolescent's game. It's not personal at all. It's about right and wrong, survival and death.

Civility went to shit around the primaries. One of the reasons I left. The constant sniping between the supporters of Obama and Clinton got old faster than an open can of tuna left on the sidewalk in the middle of July. Its shelf-life was measured in minutes. And, as I see, we still have the remnants of that nastiness lingering. News Flash. I don't GIVE A SHIT. Obama won, Clinton lost. Either way we were getting someone more attached to the status quo than I wanted.

At least science is making a comeback. Can't complain about that. Or, well, we can, but then we just sound stupid. I'm wondering, however, if we're going to see political expediency begin to trump science more and more. Not necessarily in terms of things like stem cells (which doesn't offend the money men), but with regards to Green Energy and jobs creation. There are several very influential industries who'd very much prefer we don't do anything it that direction until the very last minute.

And, yeah, I think bipartisanship is bullshit. Look at what's going on now. Despite every effort to placate those assholes on the right, we're still seeing some pretty damn stupid crap emerging from any number of the bloated bags of flatulence who act as its spokespeople. Though, perhaps, "people" might be an entirely overly generous term for such people as Limbaugh, Savage, Malkin, or Coulter. Rabid howling dogs, maybe. Something like that.

People don't get to stand in place in the middle and say "hey, you need to compromise." Hah! Maybe YOU need to compromise. We've already done so by putting up with the bullshit THIS long. Maybe it's time you sidled THIS direction for a little while. Show that the tracks run both ways. Or not.

I read somewhere that "we already had a vote on Single Payer health care. It was called the last election, and it lost." Funny, I don't remember much of a serious debate on that issue. Mostly it was which ridiculous plan they were going to enact that would "fluff" the insurance industry sufficiently. I still say Americans deserve at least what the British, French, Canadians, and Cubans have. I mean, really, the CUBANS? They're still driving Packards, practically, and yet...

I'm not "far left" by any reasonable measure. Of course, who said that the measure was anything approaching reasonable? I'll DISCUSS anything--but I still want to understand why anyone would think handing over the question of health care to the very people who've helped PUT us in this state was a GOOD idea? Again, if the French can do it, certainly we can do it better, right? :evilgrin:

In the meantime... I won't say "let's try to get along." I've been here long enough to know what good that'll do. The funny thing is, in the end, we're still more alike than different.

[stillcool]

1. what is the truth?

Do you know what the health care bill will look like? Do you have any say in the matter? Will your Senators and Congressperson vote the way you want? I have Kennedy and Kerry and I doubt they would vote for a single-payer system. Is Obama going to chase the Insurance Industry out of town..like the sheriff? Does it matter? Do you know if Eric Holder will appoint a Special Prosecutor? If he does, will you get what you want? If you don't, whose fault will that be? I don't think you or anyone else has to compromise anything. If that's the way you live your life, that's your business.

[slay]

2. K&R

I'm not going to give people who want to attack this thread any ammo so I'll just say - INDEED. Nice post.

[TexasObserver]

3. Hell yes!

[Usrename]

4. 0 for 8

Besides the fact that he said he would not appeal the decision to release the torture photos and then filed an appeal within weeks, or that he said he would end the military tribunals and then continues them, or that he said he would end "don't ask, don't tell" but is now continuing that policy, there are also these other things as well:

he also said that he would bring all the combat troops home from Iraq by a date certain, then he decided to leave some of them there indefinitely,

he also said he would not vote for telecom immunity, then he voted for it,

he also said he would close Gitmo, the he leaves it open,

he also said he would not allow the taxpayer bailout money to go to pay off executive bonuses, then he lets them pay themselves huge bonuses,

he also said that he wouldn't let big pharma write the health care reforms, then he acttually lets them run the whole show.


Is a pattern emerging here?

[Mythsaje]

5. Hey, no one can say I'm not generous...

It was a "conservative" estimate.

[hfojvt]

6. Who cares about God?

Lots of people. The God question is one of the most fundamental ones of all existence. You decided to open your post with it, and have decided on a "God doesn't matter" position.

Just because you question Democrats does not make you a Republican. Duh. It could make you something even more insidious - a Naderite. Those supposed leftists who are always dissatisfied with the centrism and corporatism of the Democrats. They are more insidious than Republicans because there "there's no point in voting for a Democrat" position translates in the real world to "there's no point in defeating a Republican".

Certainly, the last 8 years have shown how untenable that position is. Yes, Obama disappoints again, and again and again. And again. But look at your 0 for 3. Torture photos (and who did the torturing again?) Military tribunals. (of people that Bush had tortured, probably making a civil trial impossible) Don't ask don't tell (something Congress needs to over-turn, and what is the Republican position on that issue?)

It's also been said, many times, many ways that criticism of Obama typically goes way beyond just saying "I don't like what he did". It goes to "I am sorry I voted for him" (should I take the Obama sticker off my car?) or "he's a flim-flam man" or "he has done nothing right". Right here in this thread. He's not batting .191 or .284. No, he's batting zero. He has done nothing right and everything wrong. He's "Oh" for 8.

As for bipartisanship, I never did like that aspect of Obama's campaign, although it may have helped him win. But I don't think every effort has been made, nor do I think it helps to make co-operation if you see them as "those a$$holes on the right".

[ZombieHorde]

7. "Don't ask don't tell (something Congress needs to over-turn"

A new study by a team of military law experts asserts that President Obama has the legal authority to end gay discharges through an executive order.

http://www.365gay.com/news/study-obama-doesnt-need-congress-to-halt-gay-discharges/

[Mythsaje]

8. Who cares about God?

Too many people. Has it helped any? Not recently. Maybe not ever.

Of course there's a difference between voting for a Republican and a Democrat. But not enough of one. And I don't recall ever voting for a Green. In the end it's my party and I'll cry if I want to.

[Fumesucker]

11. Interesting that *supposed* leftists would be dissatisfied with corporatism and centrism..

""Those supposed leftists who are always dissatisfied with the centrism and corporatism of the Democrats.""

We all know that *real* leftists are thrilled with centrism and corporatism and can't wait for things to get even more centrist and corporate.

:eyes:

[hfojvt]

18. I think I used that word because of the anonymity

there's no way to know if somebody is bashing Democrats because they are a real leftist, or because they are not. When the final result is to elect more Republicans, then it's hard to see that people like Nader really believe what they say they believe.

[Mythsaje]

19. The other option, of course, is to fight to elect more centrists

who make the dividing line as transparent as possible.

[Fumesucker]

22. Take a look and see if their positions are consistent..

If a person takes one position one week and a differing one the next they are not likely to be honest interlocutors.

Likewise look for internal consistency in their arguments for various positions, do they tend to support the rights of the individual or the rights of the collective (corp, state, nation, whatever). If someone's positions are not internally consistent with one another then they may well not be honest about those positions.

There is also a school of thought that things have to get to a certain point of awfulness before true reforms will begin, since Repubs are likely to get us to that point more rapidly than the Dems then putting more Repubs in power becomes a feature rather than a bug.

I'm somewhat convinced of the truth of this particular school of thought, my own point of awfulness will be when most people lose their cable TV and other electronic entertainments, then we shall see some real anger. Honestly I wish it didn't have to be that way but at the moment this is the way I'm leaning philosophically.

[Fumesucker]

12. Unless God directly intervenes in life here on earth..

Then whether or not God exists is really a moot point, it is impossible to prove one way or another.

A fundamental question of existence for which it is impossible to make a definitive statement either way.. That looks very much to me like a subject custom made for great and unending controversy.

[Mythsaje]

14. Indeed!

Which is pretty much my point. Unproven, unprovable, and moot.

[hfojvt]

17. two out of three isn't bad

unproven, unproveable, but not moot. Because it's mind over matter. If you don't mind, then it doesn't matter, but if you do mind, then it does. The choice, to believe or not believe, or to follow or not follow, has some impact on the way people live just as the traditions have huge impact on society.

[Fumesucker]

20. Personally I think most people act pretty much how they are going to act..

I think most religions are enough of a Rorschach test that you can get pretty much whatever you want out of them.

If you are a Christian and a good loving person you will tend towards those passages in the Bible that reinforce how you already believe.

If you are a vindictive and judgmental jerk you'll find scripture to support that also.

I suspect most if not all religions are similarly open to various interpretations of their scripture.

[Booster]

9. Excellent post and I agree with you all the way. I'm trying not to

believe that we're all being played like a fine violin, but the music is getting louder and louder.

[dorkulon]

10. I know it's not the main point of the OP, but you're wrong about atheism.

An atheist does not necessarily believe there is no god, he simply does not believe there is one. It's not a subtle difference.

[Mythsaje]

13. Depends on the brand...

I don't think it matters. I've seen unparalleled arrogance on the part of many. I still remember several comments on DK's alleged "woo" beliefs (a word that makes me near fighting mad, btw) and a general assumption that belief in anything beyond human knowledge makes one inferior. I don't believe in revealed religion, but I'm unwilling to dismiss everything not immediately apparent to our limited scope of vision.

[dorkulon]

15. It's not a dismissal; it's admitting what one cannot know.

I'm really talking about agnostic atheism, but that I think is the most common form. There's a difference between saying "who knows? astrology could be true" and "I believe in astrology because you can't prove it isn't true." I have to admit that when people believe in something simply because it MIGHT be true, they seem not too smart to me. Anything might be true.

[Mythsaje]

16. Right...

Anything might be true. It's certainty that irritates the hell out of me. I'm agnostic with philosophical Taoist and pantheist influences. I don't believe in the "supernatural" because everything that exists (whether we understand it or not) is by definition "natural." (Except maybe plastic).

[dorkulon]

21. Sounds like we're not that far from each other philosophically.

I also find a lot of wisdom in Taoism, and think the universe--whatever it is--is obviously something amazing and beyond my perception. I agree the certainty that there is no God or whatever is as close-minded as a certain belief in any specific dogma.