GTMO, the FBI and the "cleansing" of "evidence" gained through torture

[Solly Mack]

The Bush administration, knowing that so-called evidence gained through torture would be challenged, sent in FBI "Clean Teams" to "cleanse" the evidence.

In other words, the exact same so-called evidence that was gained from the use of torture by the CIA at secret prisons would now be more acceptable after the FBI "cleaned" it up.

"The Bush administration announced yesterday that it intends to bring capital murder charges against half a dozen men allegedly linked to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, based partly on information the men disclosed to FBI and military questioners without the use of coercive interrogation tactics


FBI and military interrogators who began work with the suspects in late 2006 called themselves the "Clean Team" and set as their goal the collection of virtually the same information the CIA had obtained from five of the six through duress at secret prisons.

To ensure that the data would not be tainted by allegations of torture or illegal coercion, the FBI and military team won the suspects' trust over the past 16 months by using time-tested rapport-building techniques, the officials said."

Here's the thing - The CIA tortures me in their secret prisons. I confess to anything and everything because of that torture. You decide you need to clean up what I said under torture in an attempt to remove the "taint" of torture. You send in a "Clean Team" (after I was tortured) - who goes after the exact same "evidence" the CIA tortured out of me. Presto! Now the "evidence" is no longer tainted by torture. Like magic, that evidence is (somehow) legitimate.

Because goodness knows the threat of being tortured again would in no way influence me or what I say to the "Clean Team".

There is just no way the fear of being tortured again is hanging over my head while the "Clean Team" is being just so nice to me.



More info on "Clean Teams" and when they were used

"He reached Guantanamo in September 2004.

There, the interrogations continued but there had been another shift.

"He says: 'They said they were worried I would tell the court that I had only confessed through torture. They said now they needed me to say it freely'".


'We called them the clean team, they wanted to say they had got this stuff from a clean interrogation"


And there is more info out there - just look for it.


Bottom line:

You can not un-torture people who have been tortured.

And you can not "clean" or "cleanse" or clear the "taint" of evidence gained by torture.

You can not make legitimate what was gathered by torture.

[Karenina]

1. K&R!!!

[Solly Mack]

6. Hey!

Thanks :)

[knowbody0]

2. It's the Mao game

in which it is against the rules to ask what the rules are.

I cannot imagine what hell these prisoners are in.

[Solly Mack]

15. I can't either :(

[leftstreet]

3. "They said now they needed me to say it freely'

:grr:

K&R

[Solly Mack]

7. Yep.

He was set free...but how could he be tried even if he was guilty of anything?

Evidence gained by torture isn't legitimate.

And that same evidence is made no more legitimate once "cleaned" by the FBI...it's still the same evidence gained by torture.

So...what "evidence" could a tribunal use and still be a legitimate court?

How can a court make a fair ruling using such evidence?

It can't.

[notadmblnd]

4. is it me or is there a complete picture being drawn here this morning?

Seems like the talk in regards to this subject has gone from an occasional drip to an outright downpour?

[Solly Mack]

16. We are having a deluge of news cycle it seems

Unfortunately, some of it is being presented as new

And also, some what we've learned in the last few weeks brings up the things we already know, and can now tie together

[Old and In the Way]

5. Here's my take on the destroyed tapes

The CW has been the tapes were destroyed because of the brutality they documented. Obviously that's true...but I now think a primary reason was to undocument the questions that were being asked to the torturees. They were trying to link Saddam to AQ...not looking to find ticking timebombs or expose terrorist cells.

[Solly Mack]

8. Good point

hide the questions - hide the primary motive...destory the evidence of multiple crimes by destroying the tapes

[Supersedeas]

24. the pressure to obtain coerced confessions about the Sadaam/Al-Caca/9-11 Connection will never

be developed by the commercial brand of Corp Media.

[Raineyb]

9. Is this "cleansed" evidence going to be used in the "improved" tribunals?

Because I'm seeing another reason not to support these tribunals.

Regards

[Solly Mack]

10. I don't know. I don't see how it could be and the tribunals be legitimate

Obama said he wouldn't use evidence gained through "cruel treatment" and torture is cruel treatment - and he can't use the "clean" evidence either ...well, he can't allow it to be used and then claim the tribunals are legitimate. Because they wouldn't be.

So..what evidence will they use? Guess we'll have to wait and see.

[merh]

11. In criminal court, you know the system of justice afforded to

US citizens that are not labeled terrorists, the information obtained through coercive tactics cannot be used in a court of law. The fruit of the poisonous tree, any evidence obtained through the tortured, coerced confession would be inadmissable - the evidence would have had to have been developed independent of the torture, the abuse, the coercion.

[Solly Mack]

12. Exactly...and this so-called "cleansed" evidence is fruit of the poisonous tree

[merh]

14. yes

very poisonous indeed

[suffragette]

13. K&R

[Solly Mack]

17. Thank you, suffragette

[suffragette]

22. The points you make are so very important, they bear repeating:

"Bottom line:

You can not un-torture people who have been tortured.

And you can not "clean" or "cleanse" or clear the "taint" of evidence gained by torture.

You can not make legitimate what was gathered by torture."

[EFerrari]

25. And by extension, you cannot untaint military tribunals

whose process has been corrupted by torture, imho

[Solly Mack]

26. True

[suffragette]

27. Yep, they are entwined

Part and parcel of the same wrong.

[Wednesdays]

18. K&R

:kick:

[Solly Mack]

20. Thanks, Wednesdays!

[Senator]

19. K&R

[Solly Mack]

21. Thanks, Senator!

[G_j]

23. K&R!