Did a teacher go too far, or is the student out of line here?

[carlyhippy]

You decide....I wouldn't want to be a teacher these days, they should be applauded, they don't get paid near enough for what they have to deal with IMHO.

http://www.koat.com/news/19509571/detail.html#

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

1. The kid should have just stood the fuck up and walked

He's 12, way too old to be having temper tantrums like a two-year-old. What were they supposed to do? Just let him lie there all day?

[pnutbutr]

4. non violent resistance ftw

Good for the kid, standing up to the man......er laying down to the man...or something.

[Ohio Joe]

17. The person trying to educate our children is not "the man" - nt

[pnutbutr]

20. he is to the child at that moment n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

112. Then the child is HORRIBLY misguided. Teachers are NOT there because they love the authority

as Cops, FBI agents, and CIA agents are.

Teachers are drawn to the profession out of a want, nay NEED to help others.

If this kid thought that a Teacher was "The Man", then I'd like to leave my palmprint on his parents' faces and wake them up to reality.

I'd say YOU were horribly misguided if YOU thought the kid was right in his assumptions.

[Mythsaje]

118. Some are...

Probably not a majority, but, yeah, some do love the authority. It's been twenty some years, but I remember well enough. I can count the number of truly great teachers I had on both hands and have some fingers left over. The rest were either phoning it in, control freaks, or incapable of connecting.

[cherokeeprogressive]

126. I totally respect your opinion, but have to point out that

"Phoning it in" and "incapable of connecting" doesn't equate to a teacher becoming a teacher because they love the authority it gives them. "Control freaks" however, are another story altogether.

[Mythsaje]

127. Oh, I know... I'm just saying that some ARE control freaks...

And stating how few and far between (in my experience) the truly great teachers are.

[Rebubula]

24. Nonviolence....

...yeah, I am sure Dr. King would agree with you....


:eyes:

[pnutbutr]

34. What?

kids aren't allowed to use it as a form of protest to how they are being treated?

[Seldona]

128. So you're for tossing troubled kids around?

What a fucking disgrace.

[LostinVA]

129. I didn't see anyone tossed around

The school should have just called the cops -- that would be something the kid and his mom can REALLY squawk about.

And, if you search my posts, I am generally on the side of the student, but this is ridiculous.

[rhett o rick]

133. Yes he is too old to have a tantrum. But he did and apparently the school

had no plan for that type of situation. In any event a teacher shouldn't have handled it. The administration and security should have dealt with it. Maybe letting him lie there all day wasn't a bad idea. Certainly his parents should have been contacted.

[Duckhunter935]

2. Teacher was right

student went over the line.

[LWolf]

3. I don't have the right plug in to play the video.

I wouldn't have made that choice, although I certainly might have been tempted.

I can't tell without seeing the video, but it sounds like the teacher was trying to get the student to the office to deal with the problem and the student refused.

As a teacher, I would have called the office and left them to deal with it.

Then THEY would have had to choose between physically moving the kid or calling law enforcement to do it for them.

Calling law enforcement covers their ass. It also allows the behavior, and the disruption, to continue for a longer time.

The office could have called a parent and had the parent deal with it. If they didn't call the parent first, they should have. Of course, parents aren't always able to be there within minutes to put a stop to the behavior. Sometimes they WON'T, even if they can. So a call to the parents to let them know the situation, perhaps let them talk to the kid if they can get a phone to him, and then the call to the police...

No passing periods or allowing other students to get to their lockers in that hallway in the meantime, though.

While not the best choice, dragging was probably not meant to be abusive. Just to get the job done when the kid wouldn't. He wasn't a little guy who could just be picked up and carried during his tantrum.

[Ohio Joe]

6. Whats the teacher going to do...

Leave the kid in the hall while he goes to the office? As soon as he does the kid gets up and wanders off to cause more trouble elsewhere and the teacher is screwed for leaving the kid alone. No, I'm really not feeling any outrage over this.

[pnutbutr]

9. some schools

provide radio's to all teachers and staff.

[Ohio Joe]

15. Yes, that is true but...

It does not look like this one does.

[pnutbutr]

19. might be a good idea

then the teacher would never have to leave the classroom. They could call an office staff member to accompany the student to the office who would then be able to call for assistance if a situation like this happens.

[Ohio Joe]

22. True also but the teacher has to...

deal with the situation as it is, not how it would be ideal.

[donco6]

90. Every room has a call button already.

Directly to the office. One has to assume the teacher used it. But with one, maybe two administrators for 450 to 600 kids, they aren't always just waiting around to drag kids to the office. There may not have been anyone to help. The kid may have been acting violently (it happens a lot). Removal from the classroom is the only option. I don't know what she could have done.

[jazzjunkysue]

66. As soon as the bell rang, he'd be run over, and the school would be liable for his safety.

I say the teacher was OK. The kid was refusing to walk down the hallway. It was a very childish, even infantile response. The teacher was calm and looking him in the eye the whole time, obviously trying to reason with him.

Not knowing the particulars, this teacher backs the teacher. The kid needs help, if his solution is to lay down in public places. He's way too big for that reaction, unless he's special needs, and then all bets are off.

[LWolf]

86. If he's special needs, he may need a more restrictive environment,

if he's unable to handle himself in the environment he's now in.

I don't blame the teacher for trying to move the kid out of the hallway. This teacher would have turned that job over to someone else, specifically to head off the exact fall out that resulted this time.

[trayfoot]

13. I totally agree with you...........

I always had my cell phone with me. I would have called the office to let them handle it. You've got to realize that the teacher is also liable for whatever is going on in the classroom they have left. I'm not going to manhandle a child and let my classroom go unsupervised.

[wolfgangmo]

82. rule one - never touch a kid

unless you reasonably believe that they are a danger to themselves or others and then the rules change.

The problem with your idea is that often the "office" does nothing if you send a kid to them except send them back. And call the cops. They aren't going to do that; they might have to fill out paperwork and take a phone call.

[LWolf]

85. All of that is correct.

As a teacher, I wouldn't have dragged him.

Still, what IS the solution to that particular problem? If the teacher can't handle it, the office can't handle it, and law enforcement can't or won't, what should happen?

Should they have just left him laying in the hallway throwing a tantrum, and went about their business?

[rhett o rick]

134. The administration should have had a plan for behavior like this. Maybe call the parents. nm

[atreides1]

5. Depends

There will be those who might think that it has tad bit over the top and others who will say it wasn't enough! It's all matter of perspective.


The kid was pretty open about what happened:
"We were talking about if I wanted to go to the office or not, and if that I had the option like go back in the classroom, or do something and or leave with him to the office, and I didn't choose any of those," Osbaldo said.

That's when Osbaldo says he laid down on the floor "and he just started dragging me."

"I was feeling really mad when he was dragging me, and I didn't want to do anything because it would go worse for me."

The teacher not so much, for legal reasons I guess.

It all depends on what the rules for this school district are in handling this type of situation.

[rateyes]

7. If that were my child, I would want to be called on the phone

and informed of the refusal of my child to obey the teacher's reasonable order. Then, I would have proceeded to go to the school, and would have dragged his ass to the office myself. And, while I think the teacher was probably out of line---as a parent, I wouldn't be angry with the teacher for a moment, and would not file a complaint.

And, my child would know without any doubt that his behavior was unacceptable. And, if I had to, I would be attending school with him and sitting in the chair next to him all day long---embarrassing the hell out of him in front of his peers.

[KittyWampus]

30. How is the teacher supposed to inform you? Is he supposed to leave the kid laying there

and go to the office? The kid gets up and disturbs some other corner of the school in the meanwhile.

It's upsetting me that up-thread some DUers talk about equipping teachers with radios so they can call for back-up.

I'm not arguing with you as much as just feeling really exasperated. My parents were both teachers. My Mom taught little kids. She said last years she was part social worker. And the stories she heard from the kids of problems at home...

I BET you would have made your child regret, one way or other, such behavior. So many other parents, would expect their "little Johnny" to be accommodated.

[rateyes]

39. I'm a former teacher, and substitute teach in the public schools now.

If I did not have my cell phone with me to call the parents (I usually do, and have seen teachers do it), I would stay with the child until someone else came down the hall, and have them go get the principal or assistant principal, or another teacher. I would then have proceeded to make my call to the parents. And, if the parents didn't want to come and deal with it, then I would proceed to have little Johnny's ass picked up by the authorities. Either way, I would have witnesses.

My point, though, in my post was to say that this kid's mother's response tells me that she is as much of the problem as is the child.

[AspenRose]

47. *nodding*

Yep

[Mythsaje]

119. Or stick a head in a nearby classroom and request THAT teacher

call the office or send a trustworthy student as courier.

[Dorian Gray]

79. Your kids are not going to

ever get this out of line! :)

I agree with you, though. I think I'd handle it in much the same way.

[Heidi]

8. I would have called for an administrator to help with the situation

and act as a witness. I come from a long line of educators; that's one job I'd never want to do, nor do I have the temperament for it.

[dugaresa]

10. oh what a gem that kid must be at home, when he lives at home the remainder of his life

because he can't get along with others, respect people ..etc

I hope his parents will enjoy raising him the remainder of his life.

At 12 years old I was a latch key kid who had to let myself into the house, do my homework and start following the list my mother left behind so that we could eat dinner when she got home.

[snot]

11. Insufficient info

I think I'm about as benevolent as they come, but I've also faced kids throwing tantrums that were endangering their own or others' health or property.

[TexasObserver]

12. The teacher's conduct is way out of line. He should be suspended.

Dragging a recalcitrant student is not an option. It's very simple. They call the parents and say "come get your kid and take him home, or we'll have the police take him to juvenile hall."

His option was to leave the child, go alone to the office, and deal with it there. Dragging the child is completely unacceptable.

I don't say fire the teacher, but suspended without pay for a month sounds about right.

[KittyWampus]

32. Ah, and when the parent doesn't come and the police are called and things escalate...

And stories like that have been posted on DU... it's a sure thing most DU'ers would be bent out of shape because the teachers, administrators and police couldn't handle a precious 12 year old boy.

[TexasObserver]

65. People who defend bad, abusive teachers are the problem.

We have some bad teachers, and we should see to it that they find a new line of work. One where they have to deal with adults, instead of children.

The teacher committed an assault and a battery on the child. He would be doing time if he were anyone but a teacher.

[ThirdWorldJohn]

14. Teacher + Murder + in front of class+ got off scot free + in Texas of course +

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/19/schools.abuse/index.html?iref=24hours

Congress hears accounts of abused special-needs students

(CNN) -- A Texas woman tearfully recounted the death of her foster child at the hands of a schoolteacher during a congressional hearing Tuesday looking into the use of seclusion and restraints in U.S. schools.
The House Committee on Education and Labor heard testimony Tuesday on a report looking at school abuse.

The hearing came on the heels of a report issued by the investigating arm of Congress that documents widespread abuse of techniques use to restrain or discipline special-education students.

The Government Accountability Office report was prepared for the House Committee on Education and Labor, which heard testimony from parents, investigators and experts who described traumatizing punishment of special-needs children.

The violent acts -- from hours of isolation in locked rooms or closets to the use of handcuffs and pinning children on the floor -- often led to serious injuries and even death, witnesses said.

Committee Chairman Rep. George Miller, D-California, called the testimony "startling."

"This is just unacceptable," he said. "This punishment is way out of bounds of what I believe are the social norms of this society."

Toni Price of Killeen, Texas, told committee members that her 14-year-old foster child, Cedric, died in March 2002 when his eighth-grade teacher's disciplinary actions went too far. His death was one of the cases investigated by the GAO -- and the teacher, who is now working in a Virginia high school, has been placed on leave as a result of the congressional investigation.

Price said Cedric was experiencing behavioral problems in school and on that particular day he stopped working at 11 a.m. His teacher withheld his lunch. Around 2:30, still without having eaten, Cedric tried to leave the classroom.

Her voice shaking and tears welling in her eyes, Price said the teacher, whom she described as over 6 feet tall and weighing 230 pounds, forced the boy in a chair and restrained him. Price said Cedric, a small boy, struggled, so the teacher put him face down and sat on him.

"I can't breathe," he said.

"If you can speak, you can breathe," the teacher said, according to Price's testimony.

Shortly after that, Cedric stopped struggling, and then stopped moving altogether. The teacher continued to restrain him as an aide wiped drool off his face, Price said. They then sat him up in the chair but Cedric slumped over and slid off, Price said.

He was dead before Price could get to the school.

"If I treated Cedric that way at home, I'd be in jail," Price told lawmakers.

Cedric's death was ruled a homicide, Price said, but the teacher never faced trial. She was placed on a Texas registry of individuals found to have abused children but, despite the listing, she now teaches at a public high school in Virginia, Price told the committee.

[TexasObserver]

41. That's criminally negligent homicide, at a minimum.

Teacher should have been prosecuted. Unfortunately, that's the location of an army base, and one of the most "conservative" areas in the state. By "conservative" I mean they support Bush and such things as torture and abusing kids.

[BlooInBloo]

16. Curious: Why can't they both be out of line?

[Echo In Light]

21. However, this child has a history of problems needing special classes

Either way, a teacher shouldn't drag someone's child down a hallway.

[BlooInBloo]

33. And we (should) expect more out of "adults" anyway.

[KittyWampus]

35. I think we should realize that adult teachers have to deal with more than just teaching

now. And that a lot of teachers have to put up "special ed" students who need more help and discipline than is possible to give in a classroom setting. And that many, many parents totally FAIL when it comes to dealing with their kids.

[Echo In Light]

38. My re was more or less reacting to the thread's slightly hostile tone re the child

I mean, it's a 12 yr old w/a history of trouble, he isn't Hannibal Lecter.

And do I agree with you re the adults...especially in that line of tough work, it should be clear that if one doesn't like the heat, one may be better off leaving the kitchen, so to speak.

[Are_grits_groceries]

18. I wouldn't have done it.

I probably would have been mad enough to want to do it, but I wouldn't have a shitstorm over me because of a kid if I could help it. I would have sent another student who I trusted to the office to get someone. I made a vow to myself when teaching that I would not put a hand on a kid for any reason. Too many people can get the wrong idea about anything.

The only exceptions would be if I was attacked, and if I had to try to break up a fight where there wouldn't be time to get anyone before major damage was done. Even in those 2 situations there would still be hell to pay for a while.

I learned this from watching what happened to a few other teachers. It wasn't pleasant.

[Fire1]

28. Absolutely true. Intentions can be misinterpreted in so many

ways. I stopped breaking up fights many years ago for this same reason. It's better for all concerned to send for an administrator.

[Doremus]

23. Not at all out of line.

Just dumb, from the teacher's standpoint and the likelihood that the stupid blowback from this will harm his career.

With the mother misdirecting her disapproval at the school, rather than at her own unruly brat, it's easy to see why the boy was acting out in the first place. The school will be better off without the disruption of this dysfunctional family.

[sinkingfeeling]

25. OK, I haven't had a kid in school for 20+ years. There's 'special education' for kids that can't

behave in a classroom? From the article:

"Azucena Sotelo admits her son is not a model student and said he's always been in special education classes because of behavioral issues."

Why does a school have to accept a child that hasn't been civilized? Is it the law? If a parent doesn't bother to teach a young child to be respectful of others, to be non-disruptive, nor to take directions, it becomes a 'public education' problem?

I'm for this teacher 100%.

[Echo In Light]

27. Perhaps despite requiring special ed his parents were hoping he'd advanced...

...enough to allow him to try a regular school - which can contain their own "dysfunctions" - and maybe it's not panning out. I certainly wouldn't relegate the child to the status of "uncivilized, unruly brat" based on a history of psychological/emotional problems. That seems to be indicative of a mindset that values obedience to authority/uniformity over understanding a parent's dilemma of handling a troubled child.

[sinkingfeeling]

51. I do value parental and educational authority. I see no problem with parents teaching children

basics like respect for those around them. There was no indication in the article that the boy had psychological/emotional problems. His mother said he had behavioral problems.

[Echo In Light]

52. Here's the quote:

"Azucena Sotelo admits her son is not a model student and said he's always been in special education classes because of behavioral issues."

[sinkingfeeling]

54. And I asked if there were tests that determined if the child's behavioral problems were the result

of a 'disability' and who makes that determination.

[Echo In Light]

55. It sounds as tho you're questioning the validity of diagnosis/criteria?

My speculation would be that it's implausible that a child would have a history of requiring special ed sans the typical sort of testing that would confirm a condition that yields a certain type of acting out.

[sinkingfeeling]

56. It seems you would classify every child with a history of 'acting up' as disabled. Who does the

testing and what happens if the child doesn't have an actual psychological problem?

[Echo In Light]

58. I'm going by what the article reveals, and a lack a desire to paint troubled kids as "unruly brats."

If you're seriously interested in such matters, inquire at a local school about it and I'm sure they have that type of info available, or would know where to steer you to find answers. However, one conclusion that should be obvious is that a doctor's diagnosis would be a determinant. I seriously doubt parents just show up at school with their problematic child and demand that child be placed into special ed w/o specific documentation.

[Mass]

60. The testing IS done and it is difficult to get a special ed classification.

If the kid has been is sped, be sure this is not because he is a brat. It is because he has documented NEEDS. Testing is done by specialists at the school and in the professional world.

[wolfgangmo]

83. FYI

the testing for special ed is very hard to pass. You have to have recommendations from parents, teachers, therapists, and in many cases doctors that all agree on the diagnosis.

The reason for this is that federal money, always in short supply, is on the line. The schools only get so much fed money and not enough to cover services so that money comes from the schools general fund. If that kid is in special ed then he has earned that placement by long, hard, and concerted effort or by virtue of the fact that he is clearly disabled by DSM or differential diagnosis.

[sinkingfeeling]

93. Thanks. You're the only one who answered by question.

[Kerrytravelers]

37. In my state, these children are often diagnosed as Emotionally Disturbed or Severely Emotionally

Disturbed. Their behavior is driven by their condition. They do have Special Day classes for these children. However, also in my state, parents can refuse the Special Day Assignment and demand their child be placed in General Ed classes. The reason I've heard most often is that the parent's don't want their children labeled. The district's hands are tied. It takes a violent incident for a court order to be placed, and even then, it can be litigated and in the end, the parent's usually get their demands.

I hesitate to judge the situation in the OP simply because I don't know the whole story: the actual background, the history of behavior, etc. I wouldn't recommend dragging a kid, but at the same time, I've had kids make up stories about me when they were in trouble.

I didn't watch the video, but I did read the story.


ETA: I'm in education.

[rateyes]

43. Yes, it's the law. "Emotional Behavioral Disorder" is a recognized

disability under the IDEA law that requires any person with a disability be afforded a free appropriate education in the least restrictive environment possible. "EBD" students are almost always in the regular classroom for most of the day. And, before a teacher can discipline such a student, there has to be a determination whether or not the child's disability contributed to the offending behavior. Each of these students has what is called an IEP (individualized education plan) Team that includes teachers, administrators, parents, and at times the student.

[sinkingfeeling]

49. Who decides if the child has an 'emotional behavioral disorder' or is just an unruly brat?

Is there a series of tests to determine that the child has a disability? Surly, not all children who are raised without set standards of behavior aren't called 'disabled'.

[Echo In Light]

50. Going by the mother claiming he's always been in special ed classes for troubled children

I seriously doubt that many different school admins, teachers and doctors are simply letting an 'unruly brat' work the system to his advantage if he has a long record of requiring separate education for troubled kids.

[rateyes]

61. There are a battery of tests and observations made.

One cannot be labeled EBD, or be given any other label based on one test.

[knitter4democracy]

100. It's a medical diagnosis.

Doctors and psychologists have to make that diagnosis, and their findings have to be presented to the school.

[knitter4democracy]

99. It's part of PL-94-142 (aka the law). SBI and EMI.

Severely Behaviorally Impaired and Emotionally/Mentally Impaired. Different states use different terms, but they pretty much all mean the same thing.

Oppositional Defiance Disorder, in many states, is an approved diagnosis for getting a student under the law, into special education with an IEP (Individual Educational Plan--an annual plan the teachers, administrator, parents, specialists, whomever all sit down and come up with to help a student do the best s/he can).

[aikoaiko]

26. on the face of it the teacher doesn't appear to have gone too far.

In fact, the teacher (or security) may be required to remove the student because he is blocking the hallway and causing a fire hazard.

No excessive use of force here.

[book_worm]

29. Perhaps at that point he should have just left the brat laying on the floor and called his mama and

told her to come down and handle her child. Teachers have a tough job and they get precious little support from communities and parents.

[DarbyUSMC]

62. My thoughts exactly.

Leave him on the floor, go to the office, report the problem and call the parent. Go back to class, stepping right over him. He is in no danger unless the school is overrun with scorpions. Teachers are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I wouldn't be a teacher for all the money baseball players make. Many times they get to clean up the messes parents make of kids. They aren't psychiatrists or doctors or babysitters. Geeze Louise.

[Blue_Tires]

31. grey area

having been a sub i understand...i'm not sure it was the appropriate action, but if pushed, i can't say i wouldn't have done the same thing...


the hand-wringing mother should be saving her outrage over her "prescious" and why he was being such a little shit instead of questioning the teacher's actions (i also wonder how she would have reacted if in the teacher's position)...she's a big enabler and probably doesn't even know it

that kid is better off being homeschooled or in a special-needs specific school...

[JVS]

36. "get up", *kick to torso*, repeat as necessary

[sammythecat]

40. I really can't see anything all that wrong.

I just can't get outraged over this. What was the teacher supposed to do at that point? Call in a professional negotiator and Dr. Phil?

Nobody was hurt here, and I'm going on the assumption that the teacher has no history of abuse. I'm also assuming the kid has behavior problems and needs professional counseling of some sort.

[d_r]

42. ultimately

the child is a child and the grown up is a grown up.

Children do childish things; grown ups who are responsible for children's well being should remember they are the adult and act that way.

[aikoaiko]

44. At least a taser didn't get used.

:shrug:

[Ilsa]

45. The child is in Special Education. Sounds like a psychiatric diagnosis

is missing from this story, and the media can't tell us. The child needs to be properly diagnosed if he has ODD or another psych problem.

Teachers need to learn (be trained by the school district by hired consultants) how to effectively deal with these behavioral issues in special ed classes and in regular classes if the child is mainstreamed. Dragging a child to the office is uncalled for. Physical intervention is necessary when the child is a danger to himself or others, not for disobeying the teacher for an order of not standing up.

[seahorse19]

69. First of all, are you aware that children with mental health issues are stuck in regular SPED

classes in some areas? It's not as easy as how you put it. A teacher has multiple students to contend with. The dragging was done because the kid did not comply. If he called for the vice principal to come in, what makes you think that it would change anything? So what would be next: the police? Abuse occurs when the punishment doesn't fit the crime. The dragging wasn't done out of anger but necessity. And there should always be options for therapeutic day schools for kids with psych issues.

[Ilsa]

70. I wasn't suggesting a solution. But dragging the student isn't the answer

either, anymore than beating him. And yes, "Abuse occurs when the punishment doesn't fit the crime." I question the necessity of dragging the child versus waiting it out, with an aide to watch him while the parents are called. Sometimes that has to happen, even if a counselor or other office person needs to be called to watch the youngster until the parent can get there.

As I said, something is missing from this story. Even behavioral psych issues (like ODD) need to be handled properly. I'm wondering if a diagnosis is missing which would help the teacher get the help (additional aide or training) she needs.

[TexasObserver]

102. That teacher clearly has more emotional problems than the child.

The child is young. He has an excuse. The teacher has no excuse.

What is wrong with these teachers who think their power includes dragging children half their size?!

As Obama said, some teachers are simply bad. They're not cut out for the job, or they've become so jaded and gristled, they think the school exists for their benefit.

If this guy wants to keep teaching, he should be made to teach high school seniors, so he'll have someone his own size. Let him try to pull that shit with an 18 year old his own size and see which of them gets dragged down the hall by his feet.

[JitterbugPerfume]

46. if that was my kid

when he got home he would have been in a bunch of trouble. He was asking for an ass kicking


He sounds like an insufferable spoiled brat to me. Teachers deserve all of the support we can give them because most of them are working against the odds with students and their parents .

[Echo In Light]

48. Your recommendation in dealing w/an emotionally disturbed child is to "kick his ass?"

[JitterbugPerfume]

80. I do not mean I would literally KICK him

and I think you know that

but it is a parents responsibility to see to it that their child knows how to act in public , be that child handicapped or not . No teacher should have to deal with an out of control child constantly.


and why didn't this teacher have aides to help her in the classrom?If she is dealing with developmentally disabled kids she should have at least two aides because in that population you can just expect behavior problems.

[dysfunctional press]

53. the teacher was NOT in the wrong.

the mother/son combo platter is where the problems are.

[etherealtruth]

72. Clearly the child is where the "problem" lies ..

... that would explain his placement in "special education" based upon his "emotional disturbance."

Its not easy to be placed in special education programs ... it appears the child was displaying symptoms of his disorder.

Sad situation for all involved.

[dysfunctional press]

76. had the teacher dragged the kid down the staris- i'd definitely take issue...

but just pulling the kid along on the hallway floor doesn't rise to the level of outrage.

[etherealtruth]

77. Oh, I'm not outraged

I do think that there was probably a better way ... if there wasn't this should be viewed as a learning experience for the school in order to identify and institute policies to cover these situations (phones, walkie-talkies ...).

There are always "problem" (whatever the cause of the inappropriate behaviors ... be it attributable to a psych diagnosis or simply poor behavior.

[petronius]

57. From the movements on the video, it looks to me like the teacher was not

being completely firm about what was going on - he was waffling on whether the kid was going to the office or not, and that let the situation proceed the way it did.

I'm not highly bothered by the drag, but I think the teacher should have clearly expressed the intent to go to the office from the beginning, and then when the kid lay down he could have pulled him a foot or so just to demonstrate that he could compel the boy all the way to the office - then given him the option to walk.

The part that looked really strange to me is at about 20 seconds - why does the boy's head jerk sideways like that? It looks like a smack, but I can't tell...

[Mass]

59. Went too far, but probably by lack of training.

Of course, the kid's behaviour is not admissible and he should be punished (assuming that there is not more to the story like a disability and a poorly implemented intervention plan).

But imagine this is your kid. Can you accept the teacher is going to do this?

the teacher grabs his leg and drags him off down the hall.

[Quantess]

63. The teacher is just trying to do her job, and the student is behaving inappropriately.

I blame poor parenting.

[seahorse19]

64. Dear Lord...The teacher brought the student to the office in the only way he could...

And methinks that the "behavioral issues" stem from parental issues...They usually do:(

[Hippo_Tron]

67. I would've suspended the kid but let him lay there until his mother comes to pick him up

No need to use physical force.

[etherealtruth]

73. I'm not sure you can suspend a child ...

... if their negative behavior is a symptom of the disorder that is cited when qualifying the child for special education ... ?

[Hippo_Tron]

75. Well if it is a symptom of the disorder shouldn't they have a specialist to deal with this behavior?

Somehow I think the answer to that is yes they should but that they don't because they can't afford it.

[etherealtruth]

81. Children with special needs ...

... be they physical, emotional or behavioral are very expensive. Which is why I am inclined to assume that the child's placement in special education classes was the result of careful screening and testing because of his needs.

Special needs children need and deserve educations that meet their needs .... how districts are supposed to afford this I do not know. I can say this .... in almost 30 years as a registered voter I have never voted "NO" on a millage proposal.

[donco6]

88. You can suspend. It's difficult to EXPEL, however.

But neither would have solved this immediate problem. Suspension doesn't make the kid disappear.

[etherealtruth]

95. Thanks for the info :)

[Echo In Light]

109. ?...so, the idea is to make a SPED kid disappear?

This is the aspect of many of the responses in this thread that I guess I'm really taken aback by ...given that this child has a history of problems requiring special ed, why are so many so quick to overlook that and approach this situation as if it's NOT a child with that specific set of problems?

[donco6]

131. Uh . . . NO.

People were just throwing out "suspend the kid" as if that solves the problem of his tantrum. You still have to deal with the immediate problem of what to do with the kid right now.

There just isn't enough info in this article to have any idea of how the problem should have been handled. If the kid was being violent toward classmates, removal is required. And if an administrator isn't available (which is quite frequently the case), what do you do? The teacher evidently thought what she did was her only option. A mistake, but I can't jump on her too hard. These situations are extremely complex. Offering "solutions" like "suspend the kid!" are akin to offering psychological advice over the phone.

[ManiacJoe]

78. But you cannot leave him there.

He would be trampled by the other students between classes.

[donco6]

87. In the hall?

Who's watching the rest of the class while you're in the hall with the one kid?

[Blue_Tires]

92. how?

if you let the kid stay on the floor and stay with him, who's teaching your class?...if you leave him there, he could get trampled by other students, run around and disrupt other classrooms, or worst of all, run away from school completely (and then as a teacher you are in MUCH deeper shit than if you dragged him to the office and had other adults look after him)

[sammythecat]

94. I have to disagree about letting the kid lay there.

He would have been a spectacle and a disruption.

Technically, yes, the teacher did use physical force, but, nevertheless, that phrase just sounds too strong to describe what happened here. The kid wasn't in any way hurt. There was no intention to hurt. And how long could this situation be allowed to drag on (no pun intended).

I suppose they could have called in 4 EMT's to lift him on a cot and then wheeled him into the office if his mother couldn't get him off the floor. I mean, really.

[jazzjunkysue]

68. The child gave up control when he laid down on the floor. The adult had no choice

but to get him out of the way before the bell rang.

In my middle school, they would have trampled him. Honestly. They don't look where they're going.

Plus, the parents could have sued for leaving him in the hall, to be embarrassed in front of the other students.

This is an infantile response, and so the adult just got him out of harm's way. The kid could have stood up and walked, and chose not to, all the way down the hall. Then, the gave a coherant statement. That proves he understood the directions and refused to comply. It was a conscious choice.

This kid's got to learn how to behave in this school, or find a developmentally appropriate alternative facility.

[TexasObserver]

132. A teacher committed an assault on a child half his size.

It's the teacher, not the child, who needs to be forceably removed from the school. In handcuffs, if necessary. He should be arrested and fired.

[Evoman]

71. Man, that Mom and Kid should be fucking embarassed.

If that was my kid, the last thing I would want to do is talk to the media, or sue the teacher. I can't believe his mom is standing up for him. It's not like getting dragged to the office is hurtin' the little shit.

[donco6]

89. It happens more often than not.

The assumption of the parents today is that the child is an angel and the school has lots of money.

[ColbertWatcher]

74. I am not Dr. Frist.

All I can see from the video is a child being uncooperative with an adult.

I've seen similar instances in grocery stores all the time. Of course, they're much, much louder.

[cagesoulman]

84. So a teacher mom drags her asshole son down a hallway and that's a school issue?

The kid's an asshole and probably needs someone stronger than his mom to set him straight. Too bad it got caught on tape. That's her fucking kid. She has a right.

[dorkulon]

97. Read it again.

It's a poorly worded initial sentence: "...video showing a teacher dragging her 12-year-old son down a school hallway." I read it wrong the first time too. The mother is not the teacher.

[cagesoulman]

105. Gotcha. Ok, I can see why everyone's mad.

Lawsuit?

[shadowknows69]

91. I interviewed for a special education teacher's aide job once

And I was told quite frankly that I might have to restrain a child eventually to keep them from being a danger to themselves or others. This was at about the middle school level too. Also it was 15+ years ago so I suspect many rules have changed.

[handmade34]

96. based on my experience teaching

the teacher seemed to be out of line... the kid was being a brat but a mature teacher would assess and come up with a solution that didn't involve man-handling the kid.
Much of my time teaching was with 'at-risk' kids and I ran into this type of thing all the time. Most of the time it can be defused with some physchology and humanness.

[knitter4democracy]

101. I agree.

I've seen that as a teacher and now in the elementary grades when I volunteer at my kids' school.

There were many other options available to the teacher. Knocking on the closest classroom door and asking the teacher there to call down for a security officer or the principal to help. Pulling out a cell phone and calling the office and then the mother while the kid kept having his temper tantrum. Standing there without responding or reacting to the child in any way to make sure the child was safe until he finished his temper tantrum and then continuing taking him to class.

It looks to me like the teacher had had it and needed a break. Sometimes that happens, and I don't think he should be suspended or fired (written up, though, yes).

[handmade34]

103. many schools teach

control and restraint to teachers and others working with behaviorally challenged kids. All of them should.

[knitter4democracy]

104. I was taught that in college.

The basket hold, etc. It's hard to do on a kid who's on the ground flailing around, though. It would've been better to stand there until he calmed down, making sure he was safe and waiting for help to arrive.

[konnichi wa]

116. And we end up with Jeffery Dahmers and Rick Santorums.

All of them should be issued paddles.

[anonymous171]

98. Teacher was in the right. nt

[LostInAnomie]

106. This is the exact reason why I got out of teaching Emotional Disabilities students.

It is only a matter of time before you get sued or have pending administrative action just for doing your job. You are constantly put in no win situations where even if you do the right thing a disgruntled parent can make your life Hell. ED teachers are expected to be omniscient, knowing all and seeing all, and most of all knowing reactions of the most unpredictable students anyone could possibly teach.

The mother in this story is a prime example of the kinds of parents I was used to dealing with when I taught ED students. A complete enabler that is quick to throw blame on anyone that is forced to deal with their little monster. The majority of my students weren't born ED, they made that way by their parents.

The teacher was completely justified.

[konnichi wa]

107. Should have dragged the little prick to the office by the hair

I'd have smacked him silly.

[rhett o rick]

108. I believe you are serious. If so, you are probably in the wrong blog. nm

[Echo In Light]

111. Most of the hostile responses seem to be from those who don't care the kid is SPED

...special education, with a history of problems.

You can't tell me that if some of the people who apparently want to overlook that fact were to one day have a sped child of their own that they'd still be in favor of 'givin' that UNRULY BRAT what's comin' to him!'

[konnichi wa]

114. Being softhearted doesn't require being softheaded.

I suspect the people who are horrified by a little physical encouragement applied to an obnoxious little shit never have to deal with any. Bah.
:puke:

[Echo In Light]

115. do you realize you're talking about a child, and one who requires special ed?

And yes, I am a parent. Hope you're not.

[konnichi wa]

117. If he can't cope with a regular school, he should be sent elsewhere.

My kids got disciplined when they needed it. One is a physician, one an engineer and the other a college professor.

[rhett o rick]

121. Have you ever voted for a Democrat in your life? nm

[konnichi wa]

122. I voted for Obama, is he enough of a Democrat to suit you?

Apparently you think anyone who disagree with you about child-rearing can't be a Democrat. It must be nice to be such a genius.

[rhett o rick]

136. Not at all. I believe that most Democrats are compassionate and open minded.

That leaves you out.

[konnichi wa]

113. Gee, I completely missed the rule that says I have to worship a little sniveling shit.

Could you let me where know it is?

No wonder the schools are turning out functionally illiterate morons.

[rhett o rick]

120. Now I know you are on the wrong blog. Get help. nm

[konnichi wa]

123. Your concern warms the cockles of my heart.

bye bye

[rhett o rick]

110. Yes the teacher went too far.

Handling problem children shouldn't be left to the teachers and the teachers should know this. But I believe that most administrations do not give the teachers enough support in these situations. The administration should have been called and security and they should have an established procedure. We don't pay teachers enough to do this type of shit. The established procedure would be available for all parents to understand. This is what will happen if your child acts in this manner.

[Dark]

124. The kid is and the teacher aint, but there probably was a better way to handle it.

nt

[JitterbugPerfume]

125. It is no wonder

that the best , most dedicated teachers get out of the profession.

Low pay , and this kind of crap.

[yawnmaster]

130. No problem with what the teacher did.

There may be other ways of handling the situation.
The teacher for whatever reasons chose this one.
No problems with it.

[Lorax]

135. I have been in this situation.

I have had students his age lie down on the floor and refuse to comply. The policy in my school was to use the walkie-talkie to call for an administrator. But the walkie-talkies they gave us didn't work. So I would use my cell phone to call the office to ask for assistance. But many times they wouldn't come because the administrators were in meetings and couldn't/wouldn't leave to come assist. So then I had two choices:

1) Use my cell phone to call another special ed teacher from down the hall to help me to an assisted escort. That is basically where we get the kid to his feet by hooking our arms under his arms and walking him down the hall. It is one of the holds/restraints we were taught to do. I did it once and I threw out my back doing it. I'll never do it again.

2) Use my cell phone to call one of the special ed assistants who is teaching my class while I am in the hallway dealing with the non compliant child. Ask her to bring one of the gym mats that I keep in the classroom for what I call "mobile time out" (This is a gym mat that I bought because the school wouldn't give me one). It is one of those gym mats you put down on the floor to do tumbles on or stuff like that, only this one is half size. When the assistant brings it to me, I stand it on it's side and unfold it around the child. I tell the child, "we can sit here, or we can go to the office, it is your choice." I stand there holding the mat, but I stop talking. I don't engage the child in endless conversation about why he should listen. I presented his choices to him and then I wait. (Standing quietly and waiting is the hardest part.)

The child almost always initially chooses to sit there. That's fine. If the bell rings and students come out into the hallway, the gym mat is big enough to alert them not to walk there. And it's cushion-y so it won't hurt if someone bumps it. But the child soon realizes he doesn't have an audience and he's not getting the attention he wants. By the time he realizes this, he is usually ready to go to the office. At that time, we will begin to go to the office. If he resumes non-compliant behavior on the way to the office, we simply start the whole process again.

I have called parents, while the child is laying on the floor in his "mobile time-out", only to have the parents laugh and say, "yup, that's Johnny. That's what he does." Or the parents yelled at me and told me it wasn't their problem and I should figure out how to run my classroom better. (Yes, but if I dragged your kid by his feet down the hallway, then it would be your problem, huh?)

I am patient and I can remain calm in the face of unbelievable attempts to provoke. I will sit in the hallway all day if I have to. But the sad thing is that while I am doing this, the rest of my class, the kids with Autism who are still able to understand the need to comply with teacher instruction, are being taught by an assistant. Which means they are coloring or playing games. So they lose out on instruction because their teacher is dealing with a child who should be in a school that specializes in dealing with behavior disorders.

I love how it is OK for parents to tell me I should run my classroom better but God forbid I were to tell a parent that he/she should raise their child better.

And for the poster who said they were happy to see the child "standing up to the man," while this kid is asserting his "rights" and sticking it to the man, there is a classroom full of kids who are losing out because of this one kid's actions. So everyone else should suffer so this one can can assert himself against a "power hungry, controlling" teacher? It is exactly this kind of self-absorbed, self-centered attitude that has caused so many problems in our classrooms, in our schools, and in our society.

Oh, and after I spend the day in the hallway waiting for Johnny to get off the floor, I will have to write a written report describing the incident. I have 24 hours to get it signed by the principal and then sent home to the parent who blew me off. I then have to document the incident in the students IEP binder. I will also need to document in all of my other students' binders why there is no observation data for their IEP goals (because I was in the hallway and couldn't observe them). The computer in my classroom in ancient and when it is not crashing it runs at a snail's pace. The printer jams every third print job when there is even ink to print from it. This additional paperwork will add at least 60-90 minutes to my day.

I love the kids but I hate being in these no win situations, especially when they result in extra paperwork and a longer day for me. I feel my blood pressure going up just writing this post.

P.S. I can understand why the teacher made the choice he did. We don't know the whole story. We don't know what resources he had available to him that would have helped him deal with it differently. He didn't drag the kid over gravel. It wouldn't have been my choice but I don't think it was horrible.

[tj2001]

137. Texas teacher forced to resign after being punched in the head by irate student's mother

ttp://www.statesman.com/search/content/news/stories/local/05/16/0516simsassault.html

Sims teacher in assault case resigned in March
Notice given after district told him that his employment was 'in doubt,' records show.
By Joshunda Sanders
AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF
Saturday, May 16, 2009

A 47-year-old teacher who was reportedly punched in the head by an Austin mother resigned in March after the district sent him official notification that his employment was "in doubt," according to district personnel records obtained Friday.

Gabriela Dominguez Ugarte, 24, was arrested last week after being accused of striking David Svetlecic, a teacher at Sims Elementary School in East Austin.

[proud2BlibKansan]

138. Teacher went too far

He should have called security or 911 if the kid was dangerous. Or the school office. You NEVER put your hands on a kid. NEVER NEVER NEVER.

Basic concept taught in Teaching 101.

[stewartcolbert08]

140. So

What would the cops do? The same thing probably, and security would be fine, but this is a toughy, what was he supposed to do reallY? Leave him there to pout all day? They cant do that! and he is 12 years old, that is ONE year away from being a teenager, I'd like to know what goes on at home that he thinks its okay to do that and get his way. My 2 year old niece doesnt even throw tantrums like that!

[proud2BlibKansan]

142. It's not about what the kid did anymore

It's about what that teacher did.

I don't know what the cops would do and to be fair, unless the kid is a danger to himself or others, cops don't need to get involved. If they do, they CAN put their hands on the kid.

Teacher should have asked for help. From the office, from school security or call 911 if necessary.

The important thing to remember when dealing with kids like this is that you can't get into a power struggle with them. Teacher should have known that. This kid is obviously seriously emotionally disturbed. That's why he throws temper tantrums. It's not because of poor parenting.

[stewartcolbert08]

144. You are right

about the power struggle thing. I am not saying that "poor parenting" is too blame here. Clearly this kid has loving and nurturing parents or they wouldn't be so pissed off about this in the first place. But perhaps since this kid IS emotionally disturbed, he gets coddled a little bit too much at home so perhaps the behavioral issues are escalated by turning him into a spoiled brat with all the pampering. See what I am saying?

[proteus_lives]

139. The teacher didn't do anything wrong.

The kid was being a little shit.

[proud2BlibKansan]

143. Yes the teacher did something wrong

We are taught day one not to put our hands on kids, especially kids like this.

[SKKY]

141. With the training most teachers receive in dealing with such situations...

...I don't know how much more we could expect. Now, I will say that I've seen way worse than this pass for "normal".