Sick girl's mom said she expected `divine healing' (trial for mom who let child die)

[joshcryer]

Source: AP

WAUSAU, Wis. – Just hours after an 11-year-old girl died of untreated diabetes, her mother told police she never considered taking her tired, pale and skinny daughter to a doctor for what she believed was a spiritual attack.

Leilani Neumann said in a videotaped interview played Wednesday at her trial that the Lord was going to take care of her daughter and all she needed was prayer.

"It did scare me with her being cold," Neumann told an Everest Metro Police Department detective. "I just believed the Lord is going to heal her. I never thought she was close to death. ... It was just like this all happened so suddenly. She just looked skinny all of a sudden."

Neumann, 41, is on trial for second-degree reckless homicide for praying instead of seeking medical care for Madeline, who died March 23, 2008, at their Weston home. Her husband also has been charged and will be tried in July.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090521/ap_on_re_us/us_prayer_death

---

Sad. The girl was so beautiful. :(

[joshcryer]

1. This was posted in Religion/Theology but I did not know it. Saw it on front page of Yahoo!.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x208915

Not sure if this is considered a dupe but a google search does not reveal this being posted in LBN. And it is a new story.

[cali]

2. idiot mother.

fuck her for killing her kid. and yes, she killed the child.

[joshcryer]

5. In a very painful and disturbing manner, too.

It was not an easy way to go.

[MUAD_DIB]

12. Some people shouldn't be allowed to spawn.

You're right. She did kill her kid.

[sofa king]

22. No. Jesus killed her kid.

Sooner or later we're going to have to come to terms with the idea that almost one out of four of us is a right-wing authoritarian who cannot and should not be asked to think rationally. They are normal, decent people for the most part and are important contributors to our society, but RWAs are also wide-open to suggestion from those who purport to have all the answers, and extremist religions do just that.

The woman in question here is almost certainly a right-wing authoritarian or suffers from other cognitive disadvantages, and her damned church swooped right in to give her a 3000 year old goat-herder's code of ethics which cannot adapt to modern society.

It's the religion which is causing the trouble and we ought to be going straight at 'em for it, because we're never going to be rid of the fucking morons the religions prey upon.

[gauguin57]

35. Let's sue Jesus.

That should be an interesting case.

[Zhade]

43. Take out the word "extremist" and your post is dead-on.

NT!

[mwb970]

3. The mom is the one who is sick.

Imagine letting your own child die for a wacked-out religious fantasy! As far as I can tell, religious nuts and right-wing extremists are mentally ill and should be institutionalized. Or jailed for murder, in this case.

The pathetic thing is, these people think they are better than us.

:eyes:

[joshcryer]

4. She had a "mental breakdown" during the hearings.

They had to postpone them. She really is something else.

[deutsey]

32. What she allowed to happen is reprehensible, but I feel some kind of compassion for her

I'm not making any excuses for her at all, but it sounds as if she's going through her own private hell right now.

Her daughter's dead due to the mom's faith-based negligence; the mom's facing imprisonment, possibly for the rest of her life; and I imagine she's grappling to some extent with whether her God exists or can be trusted.

[Zhade]

44. She had a mental breakdown looooooong before that. I mean, she actually BELIEVED that nonsense.

NT!

[zbdent]

6. lock her in a cell with absolutely no human contact ...

tell her to let God will her with food and water and a clean toilet ...

[Raster]

7. Bulletin: There is no such thing as "divine healing."

Gawd is NOT an MD and Jeezus is not an RN.

http://www.jesusdressup.com

[Zhade]

45. I love your sigline. It's awesome to see truth expressed so boldly.

NT!

[Raster]

66. Thank you! Your positive comment is much appreciated.

Go in peace!:toast:

[SidDithers]

84. That's from the Winter Solstice sign...

put up by the Freedom from Religion Foundation, right?

I've meant to comment on it too. Great choice for a sig :applause:



Sid

[Raster]

86. Originally from the Winter Solstice sign at the Washington State Capital...

...but slightly altered to lend my touch.

[Arugula Latte]

51. "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."

-- Mark Twain

[Raster]

67. If you ain't got anything else to go on, faith is probably as good as any.

As a matter of national policy, it's certainly worse than most.:9

[One_Life_To_Give]

8. Notice: They are called Miracles for a reason

Even if you truly believe that god can and does intervine to heal the sick/injured/dead. It seems painfully obvious that often times he/she lets things run their course without intervening. Hence the reason we get so excited and call them miracles on the rare occasion that he/she does.

[Blandocyte]

9. This kind of cr@p makes me SICK

pray for me.

[BlueJazz]

10. When you wish upon a star, makes no difference who you are...It doesn't work.

[dorkulon]

83. LOL /nt

[Rebubula]

11. Sadly...

...I expect a repeat of this story with the 13 year old with cancer that is currently on the lam with his crazy mother.

I wish that I could be around when we finally get rid of all these old superstitions.

[HopeHoops]

13. Did Jesus show up on her grilled cheese sandwich and say "All will be good"?

How the FUCK can people be so brainwashed?

Stupid people SHOULD NOT BREED!

Unfortunately, the one thing they DO seem capable of is sex.

[Joe Bacon]

14. Chalk another one up for religion!

Thanks to the stupidity fostered by Christians, we're getting closer to Mike Judge's Idiotcracy every day!

[struggle4progress]

40. They didn't actually go to any church. The mother got caught up in some internet site.

So maybe "the web" and not "religion" is to blame?

[Zhade]

46. It has nothing to with a specific religion, and everything to do with belief in superstition.

Church or not, believing in things for which there is zero evidence is a waste of time at best, and deadly at its worst -- as this story shows.

[struggle4progress]

56. The parents seem to have uncritically accepted something they read on the internet. If you look

around the internet, as I have, you will find there all sorts of idiot and insane stuff posted there. It's dangerous. We should abolish it :eyes:

[Zhade]

59. Your strawman is irrelevant. No one said anything about abolishing religion.

NT!

[struggle4progress]

61. Or, it may be about mental illness, or people who are so distraught at their child's sickness

that they can't think clearly. Or it may be about a fraudulent fundraising scheme on the web, that targets desperately unhappy people who can't see through it. Or it may be about people who have, for some reason, become so isolated from the larger community that their view of reality is affected. Or perhaps it's really about whether the parents really thought medical care was actually an option they had

It would be useful to know exactly what psychological or social dynamics that produced the frame-of-mind leading to that bad choice -- and apparently, you are quite sure that you do know: it's "religion." But the mother wasn't following any standard religion: she was posting at a website. Confronted with the girl's symptoms, people at any church, that I've ever belonged to, would have tried to get her parents to take her to the doctor: no one would have explained the daughter's sickness as "sin"

[mikeytherat]

15. Medicine and medical treatment could be seen as gifts from God

A man is trapped on his roof during a flood. Another man comes by in a boat and offers to help. "No thanks, I'm fine where I am," says the stranded man. "God will save me." A while later the water is lapping at the roof, and another boat comes by offering assistance. "No thanks, I'm fine where I am," says the stranded man. "God will save me." Finally, the water is up to the man's neck, and yet another boat comes by, but the man is unmoved. "No thanks, I'm fine where I am," says the stranded man. "God will save me." Soon after the waters rise some more and the man drowns.

As the man is entering Heaven, he runs to God and says, angrily, "I had faith! I prayed to be saved and you let me drown!" God turns to the man and says, "I sent three boats."

mikey_the_rat

[Blue_Tires]

17. good luck trying to make them understand THAT

[deutsey]

23. I thought of the same story

only the one I heard had a police car coming before the flood, a boat coming as the floodwaters rose, and a helicopter flying overhead offering help as the man sat on the roof of his house.

The point's the same, though. If you believe in a personal God that answers prayers, who's to say God has to go the Cecil B. DeMille route and perform spectacular miracles?

Children being healed through medical treatment for something that would have killed them a century or two ago is pretty damn miraculous to me.

[dflprincess]

29. And St. Luke was a physcian

you'd think they'd see that as God's stamp of approval on medicine.

[AnneD]

30. Mikey....

that is one of my fav stories. God gave us every thing we need to make earth a Garden of Eden -actually it is Eden come to think about it. God gave us brains to use. We came up with treatments so that we could heal ourselves so quit pestering God. He has other things to do.

[Zhade]

47. Meh. Why give credit to mythical beings, when humans did ALL of the work?

NT!

[Blue_Tires]

16. both parents should go to jail...

and denied any form of medicine/medical aid

[beyurslf]

18. 25 years! For slowly and a maliciously murdering her own child?

Lock her, forget the key, and let "god" take care of her. The nutty bat case! And they already set the defense for dad. The article says Dad thought about getting medical care and mom convinced him not to. If he gets off, I hope he doesn't get his other children back.

[saigon68]

19. All children are Beautiful

Not just this one.

On the other hand maybe a better way to deal with these problems is for the govment to just let these crazy nut jobs do their own thing

That being said who should play god--- the prosecutor? the judge? the police chief ? or someone trying to bring water to Terri Schaivo?

[shadowknows69]

20. Thank you once again organized religion.

[struggle4progress]

39. '... The Neumanns say they were not a part of any organized church ..."

After Weston Girl's Death Wausau Church Shares Insight on Prayer and Healing Save Email Print
Posted: 3:30 PM Apr 29, 2008
Last Updated: 3:30 PM Apr 29, 2008
Reporter: Kristina Szews
http://www.wsaw.com/karaneumanndeath/headlines/17169561.html

[Odin2005]

21. FUCK RELIGION!!!

:grr: :cry:

[Arkana]

24. Why are people like this allowed to be parents?

[jgraz]

85. Because they aren't gay

Sad but true.

[depakid]

25. This is the sort of thing that happens when a society enables and legitimizes fundamentalists

[Zhade]

48. This is the sort of thing that happens when a society enables and legitimizes superstition.

Fixed your typo :p

[bowens43]

26. This idiot should spend the rest of her life in jail.

religion promotes ignorance. You would think that we would have out grown the need for gods long ago.

disgusting

[AnneD]

31. Let's see if God can do another miracle ...

and get her out of jail.

Oh wait-when the son of God went to jail-he wound up being crucified. OOPS. But maybe she might be rewarded with a resurrection.

[Javaman]

27. so much willful stupidity, so much willful ignorance,

pride in ones religion leads to the ruin of betterment.

[JonQ]

28. You know, I can see believing that god *can* heal your illnesses

not my personal belief, but I get it.

But look at his track record, it's just awful. If he were a licensed doctor he'd have no time to see any patients with all the malpractice suits he'd face. Not something you want to bet your life on.

[crim son]

33. I have mixed feelings in this case. No, I believe the mother made

a gross error and I believe she must pay a price beyond merely the death of her daughter, but I believe this because SOMEBODY has to serve as an example of why people cannot let their personal religious fundamentalism be the instrument of somebody else's death. I feel the same way about "Christian soldiers" who fight in the name of Jesus because the other guy's God is wrong, and I don't believe parents should even be able to start to teach their children about religion until kids have reached an age where they can reason using logic. I'm just appalled by this senseless death and even more sickened by the mother of the boy who has fled the country with him. She got clear notice that she was killing her son, and she chose to say fuckit. She deserves life imprisonment and if God chooses to make the bars of her cell dissolve, then I'll believe her imprisonment is a mistake.

[tblue37]

90. The worst part about the mother who took her kid out of the

country to avoid treating his cancer is that the cancer he has is very treatable, with a very high survival rate. Two of my cousins, both in their late thirties now, have survived that form of cancer for many years since being treated.

[davsand]

34. Yet another case of parents killing kids with stupidity.

If it isn't the people refusing to treat the kid with cancer, it is this kind of crap.

Like I've said before, there is nothing in the Constitution that guarantees parents the RIGHT to kill their kids. This has absolutely nothing to do with religious rights of those parents or the "sacred" right parents have to determine medical treatments options for their offspring. It is called neglect.

They LET that child die and I doubt there is a hell awful enough for them.


Laura

[gkhouston]

36. Now she can hope for a divine acquittal. Moran. n/t

[Codeine]

37. If she had wrapped her nonsense beliefs

up in Native American or Eastern Mystic trapping DU would be rallying to her defense. If it was fear of "Big Pharma" that motivated her she'd have a hundred defenders on this thread throwing the same tired links to woo sites around.

Sigh.

[WildEyedLiberal]

50. Bingo

She didn't even go to church, the article says, but that small insignificant fact isn't stopping the ZOMG FUCK ORGANIZED RELIGION!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111 crusaders.

If she didn't go to a church, then by definition she was not a member of an "organized" religion. Whatever "religious beliefs" she has seem to be cobbled together whole cloth out of her own neuroses and insanity. Organized religion is responsible for a lot of bad things in this world, but this is not one of them. I find the DU urge to blame every evil in the world on "religion" not dissimilar to freeperland blaming the "liberals" or the "godless" for everything.

[Zhade]

53. I think you need to reread the post you replied to.

NT!

[Zhade]

52. Not all of DU. Many of us know parents don't have the right to kill their kids for their delusions.

I hear ya -- woowoo bullshit gets so old. I mean, it's bullshit. No facts. No evidence. All emotional wishful thinking. And it KILLS.

[Mz Pip]

38. I never understood this kind of thinking.

It sort of seems about as rational as saying "I don't need to eat any food since God won't let me starve to death." In the grand scheme of things how different is need food from needed medicine?

Seriously, why do anything to take care of yourself since God will do it for you? Medicine, food, it's all just chemicals.

Seems we have intelligence for a reason - to make rational decisions so we don't have to be bothering God all the time. If I were a deity I'd get real annoyed with beings who had the means to deal with their lives and misfortunes but chose not to because they'd rather bother me about them.

[EFerrari]

49. You'd think the maternal instinct would kick in before your kid DIED

of your stupidity. Or some survival instinct.

There must be something wrong with that woman, clinically.

[Zhade]

41. Proof that religion kills right there.

This is why belief in unproven (or often disproven) mythology and superstition is so very dangerous. Well, this, and Hitler. And the Crusades. And the Inquisition. And killing abortion doctors, or Matthew Shephard, or poor gay Iragi kids, or...

[mamaleah]

63. umm, no not really

Most religious people have no problem with doctors.
Do you believe no doctor is Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or any other religion?

And anyone religious is out to kill people?

Wrap the tinfoil tighter.

[Posteritatis]

42. Interesting that there isn't a flood of people saying the mother was right for this one (nt)

[WildEyedLiberal]

55. It's because she was ostensibly "Christian"

The crazy parents of the kid with cancer believe in some fakey New Age "native American" claptrap, so amazingly, they have rights as parents to decide to kill their kid for their beliefs, unlike the crazy fundie Christians who kill their kids out of neglect.

So to recap:

Killing your kid = your fundamental freedom as parents (if wacky New Age or otherwise not Christian)

VERSUS

Killing your kid = EVIL RELIGIOUS INSANITY (if wacky Christian)

[mamaleah]

64. Seriously?

The crazy parents of the kid with cancer believe in some fakey New Age "native American" claptrap, so amazingly, they have rights as parents to decide to kill their kid for their beliefs, unlike the crazy fundie Christians who kill their kids out of neglect.


I hope to God thats not true.

[joshcryer]

68. Have you *not* seen the chemo threads? It's 100% true.

[mamaleah]

70. Yes I have

I really thought it was an anomaly.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

79. I have another theory. It's because the child is already dead in this case.

So, defending the mother's actions becomes a bit hard.

If the OTHER psycho nutcase's kid dies, (me, I hope the police do their job BEFORE that) I'm sure the defenders will become scarce.

[joshcryer]

92. Not if he gets chemo first. He has to die without getting the chemo.

Let's all hope they find that boy and help him.

[wroberts189]

57. Interesting that hospitals can deny care but they are not considered killers. nt

[Arugula Latte]

54. And religion claims another one of millions of victims. nt

[mitchum]

58. Why does this bitch have an attorney? Shouldn't her lord be defending her?

I guess she values some professions over others...when her ass is on the line.

[Zhade]

60. I object to the bitch pejorative. Idiot works fine and isn't sexist.

NT!

[mamaleah]

62. I am female and I have no problem. This "mother" is nothing more than

a selfish, moronic bitch.

She is about as bad as that other set of freaks who won't get let their son have chemo.

[LostinVA]

82. I am female and have a huge problem

[LostinVA]

81. I am female and agree with you!

[jberryhill]

72. Because We Have a Constitution....

...and a court will require an appointed attorney unless she demonstrates competence to represent herself, which appears unlikely.

Gideon v. Wainwright - check it out sometime.

If you have a problem with the Constitution, I can't help you.

[mitchum]

76. Of course I know a court requires representation...

I have no problem with the Constitution, but I do have a problem with using those sarcasm smilies

[jberryhill]

77. Lol

I don't use them either. Mark Twain got by without smilies.

You got me.

[mitchum]

80. But Ambrose Bierce did use them!

Whowouldathunkit?
:)

[saigon68]

74. He(the lord) is busy right now

Plus he doesn't have a valid law license

[truthisfreedom]

65. This story is NOTHING BUT A DISTRACTION, PEOPLE!

Focus on what's important. Keep your eye on the prize! We need to move forward, not wallow in bullshit.

[Codeine]

71. Bugger off.

Intelligent folk can follow multiple subjects at once.

[cambie]

69. I wish I hadn't read that.

The Grandmother says that she is now proud that her daughter displayed such strong faith in God.

"It was a tragic loss and we miss our granddaughter very much," "But we believe God had a purpose in taking her. We don't understand, but God's ways are perfect and sure."


They don't feel anything. And there is a whole nest of them.

[tabasco]

93. The same people that let their kids ride ATVs without helmets

and then say it was "God's will" when they crash into a tree and die.

[Lorien]

73. The grandmother was a whack job too:

"It was a tragic loss and we miss our granddaughter very much," the grandmother said. "But we believe God had a purpose in taking her. We don't understand, but God's ways are perfect and sure."

:crazy:

She is also partially responsible; she knew the girl was sick and "suggested" taking her in for a check up, but admired her daughter's "faith" when she refused. Sounds like the insanity was passed down through the generations.

[mitchum]

78. The only possible silver lining is that the derangement didn't pass on to another generation

that poor kid never had a chance

[redwitch]

75. So, this guy lived in a flood plain.

Weather reports looked dire, he was advised to move to higher ground. Nope, he says, I'll pray. The waters rose and he moved to the second floor. A neighbor went by in a rowboat. Come with me he yelled to the man. Nope, God will take care of me. And the waters rose higher until he was on the roof, still praying. A helicopter hovered overhead and dropped down a rope and called to him, Climb up, we'll take you to safety. Nope, he said and continued praying. After he drowned he stood at the pearly gates and asked, Lord, why didn't you help me? The Lord answered, I did! I sent a warning of the impending flood in plenty of time, a guy in a rowboat and a helicopter. Too bad you didn't listen when I answered.

I figure if God exists he gave us brains, doctors, science and we ought to use them.
Or as my late mom would have said (and often did) The Lord helps those who help themselves.

[anonymous171]

87. Glad to see she is being charged. nt

[Skittles]

88. pathetic and criminal

[alarimer]

89. Religious insanity.

I am not sure that is an actual defense and it probably shouldn't be, but it certainly explains what she did.

[Seldona]

91. The church is teaching this stuff?

Sounds like they are giving medical advise to me. I just can't get my head around this. How could you let your own child die? She has to live with the fact that her child died from a preventable reason, because of her ignorance.

Meanwhile the church will go right on preaching this throwback bs. THAT is the worst travesty of all in my opinion.

[krabigirl]

94. What a sick person. And ignorant. OMG

[underseasurveyor]

95. There was a case like this years ago in Colorado

In a mountain town where I lived. A lot of controversy and strong opinions on both sides. The parents had 5 or 6 children and it was their youngest, about 6 months old, that developed pneumonia. They refused medical treatment and social services tried to get a court order to remove the baby so he could be hospitalized for treatment. Long story short the court left the baby in the care of the parents, the baby did die, charges were brought against the parents and after trial they were found not guilty. Religious beliefs won.

I don't understand these people and their supposed logic or reasoning. Don't they realize that god, if that's what they believe, gave us brains to figure out what to do and how to use the things 'he' has put on earth to heal ourselves when we get sick?

Dumbasses!:wtf: