"In the Beginning, Man Created God."

[n2doc]

Atheists roll out ad campaign
"In the Beginning, Man Created God."

This provocative twist on the Bible’s opening line was plastered on the side of 25 Chicago buses this week as part of an advertising crusade by the Indiana Atheist Bus Campaign.

The ads have been cruising between downtown and the city’s North and South sides, including the No. 56 Milwaukee route, since the beginning of the week and will run through June.

"The intent of the campaign is to stimulate discussion of religion and its place in our society," said Charlie Sitzes, a spokesman for the Indiana group who with help from the American Humanist Association has collected more than $10,000 in private donations to buy the ad space in Indiana and Illinois.

The group brought its message to Chicago after a similar campaign in Indiana – to post the slogan "You can be good without God" – was rejected by transit authorities in Bloomington and stalled by officials in South Bend, who didn’t want the ads posted in time for President Barack Obama’s speech at Notre Dame.

more:

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/religion_theseeker/2009/05/atheist-bus-campaign.html

[shadowknows69]

1. Isn't that a quote from the "Aqualung" album ?

[teamster633]

5. Yes it is.

Now I'm going to go crazy trying to remember the rest of the verse. My original vinyl is long gone and that is one of the things that you don't get when you replace an old album on iTunes.

[Doc_Technical]

6. Google is your fiend.

In the beginning Man created God;
and in the image of Man
created he him.

2 And Man gave unto God a multitude of
names,that he might be Lord of all
the earth when it was suited to Man

3 And on the seven millionth
day Man rested and did lean
heavily on his God and saw that
it was good.

4 And Man formed Aqualung of
the dust of the ground, and a
host of others likened unto his kind.

5 And these lesser men were cast into the
void; And some were burned, and some were
put apart from their kind.

6 And Man became the God that he had
created and with his miracles did
rule over all the earth.

7 But as all these things
came to pass, the Spirit that did
cause man to create his God
lived on within all men: even
within Aqualung.

8 And man saw it not.

9 But for Christ's sake he'd
better start looking.

[pnorman]

12. That one was brand new to me!

I LOVE it!

pnorman

[MisterP]

19. will we see an evangelist-atheist bus reading "Breadfan, you got it wrong"? n/t

[teamster633]

41. I did try the Google, but I just couldn't come up with a good search string.

What did you use?

[JitterbugPerfume]

61. that is great

I had never heard it!

[neverforget]

2. .

:popcorn:

[ananda]

3. Voltaire said..

..If God didn't exist, he would have to have been invented.

(paraphrase)

[ControlledDemolition]

13. The Old Testament refers to Gods (in the plural!) which implies mortal beings. n/t

[juno jones]

17. And 'Elohim' is not only plural but feminine as well.

Things that make you go hmmmmm...

[ControlledDemolition]

21. There were indeed women gods. n/t

[DavidDvorkin]

40. No,"elohim" is the masculine plural.

[juno jones]

45. But from what I've been told the root word is feminine.

The form (conjugation?) of the plural used is masculine.

Almost as a combination of the two elements is intended.

I'm sorry not to be able to show docs. I've sold off alot of my esoteric/religious library in the last year, so I don't have proof at hand.

[DavidDvorkin]

52. The root may be Eloah

which looks feminine. However, if it's feminine, then the plural should be Eloaoth, not Elohim.

But that's based on my memories from studying Hebrew many decades ago.

[juno jones]

56. Yes

Seems to me that that is the paradox.

I wish I knew where to point for confirmation, best to just post wiki which at least confirms the plural of eloah...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim

[DavidDvorkin]

57. Apparently, Eloah is not feminine, after all

See this article:

http://encyclopedia.stateuniversity.com/pages/6755/Elohim.html

I Googled "Eloah" and got more linguistic information than my brain could possibly absorb.

[Occulus]

44. So do the Commandments.

Something about being a jealous God, and not having any other gods before him...

[KittyWampus]

59. Actually, esoteric meaning of god names all refer to states of Consciousness and Being

and gender merely allude to which phase of manifestation a particular god name represents- generative (male) or receptive (female)

[Oeditpus Rex]

15. 'If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him'

But he also wrote:

"What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason."

And:

"The most beautiful of all emblems is that of God, whom Timaeus of Locris describes under the image of 'A circle whose center is everywhere and circumference nowhere.'"



Voltaire was a deist, not an atheist or agnostic.

[immoderate]

46. Atheists were Deists before Darwin.

--imm

[geckosfeet]

4. The intent may be to stimulate discussion, but fundy believers are not

known for their tolerance or willingness to discuss the existence of their god.

This will be taken as an inflammatory gesture, and the fundoids will go after Chicago with boycotts and hate campaigns..

[OrwellwasRight]

9. Chicago will be better off if the fundies don't go there.

Anyone not willing to entertain, at least for the purposes of discussion, another point of view on that which cannot be proved is a moron or a bigot or both.

[geckosfeet]

32. You are right, but the fundoids think the world revolves around them.

Kind of like the 11th century church though the sky (solar system) revolved around the earth.

They will take their money and pour it into jesus theme parks and anti-abortion legislation campaigns, thereby making shyster bible thumping politicians and business people rich.

[keep_it_real]

7. What actual proof really is there: that there is a supreme being or life after death?

I think these are the two greatest beliefs that can not be definitively proved but humanity only has belief and faith in but really does not "know" - have definitive proof - in actual fact.

[timtom]

23. Conversely, that there isn't a supreme being or life after death.

And that's the rub.

Those who approach either side of the is/isn't discussion with any certitude are "delusional", as one poster called someone who has a different belief system than his.

Humans can perceive light and sound waves, for example, within a certain limited range. Other creatures perceive within ranges that humans do not share.

With our limited range, how can anyone attest to the ultimate nature of reality?

[nichomachus]

33. You don't need to prove the negative

It is the people who claim something exists who bear the burden of proof. If you come and tell me there's an elephant in your kitchen, I don't need to launch an argument to convince you there isn't. You need to provide proof that there is.

The non-existence of something we can't see is a given. I don't have to believe there is an elephant in your kitchen until I see it for myself or you show me a photo. I don't bear any burden of proof. I can say "No there isn't," until convinced otherwise.

[timtom]

35. Your argument is shallow and doesn't address the real issue:

faith.

Neither side can be proven. That's the point. Did you understand the point about limitation of senses?

Back to Aristotle with you, young Nichomachus.

[nichomachus]

36. So, fine

you can "have faith" that there is an elephant in your kitchen. That still creates no burden on me to prove that there isn't.

You can believe as many impossible things as you want -- if it makes you feel better. And I'm still free to say they're rubbish -- and I still have no burden of proof.

My side of the argument doesn't need to be "proven."

And, for the record, "faith" is basically another way of saying "hope."

"I have faith that my spouse is faithful" = "I hope my spouse is faithful."

"I have faith there is a god" = "I hope there is a god."

[timtom]

38. Nobody's side of the argument CAN be proven!

And I will continue to have faith that your faith may be different than my faith.

Now, don't prove me wrong.

[Evoman]

60. Why can't your side be proven?

I don't get where this idea that gods existence can't be proven comes from. The only reason God can't be proved is because he probably doesn't exist.

It's usually fairly easy to find at least some evidence of somethings existence. Hell, we can find evidence of planets in other solar systems. We can find evidence of life at the bottom of the ocean. We can find evidence of the existence of energy we can neither see or hear with instrumentation. Shit, we've even found evidence for the existence of impossible to see black holes in the center of our fucking universe.

But somehow, evidence of god is nearly impossible to come by. Uh huh. Makes sense.

[cherokeeprogressive]

42. Almost exactly the same amount of proof that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe. n/t

[LiberalFighter]

8. Yep! That is the way it happened.

[TexasObserver]

10. God created man, and man returned the favor.

Samuel Clemens aka Mark Twain

Clearly, God as it is known is a creation of humans. Who knows whether one actually exists?

[ControlledDemolition]

22. The gods - who were mortal - created man. God may have created the gods! n/t

[TexasObserver]

28. No one knows if God or gods exist.

[Towlie]

11. "Can someone explain why 10% of the human race that do not believe in God have the loudest voice?"

Let's see if my added comment shows up on that Chicago Tribune comment page.

"Can someone explain to me why 10% of the human race that do not believe in God have the loudest voice?"

So says "NFM" in the fourth post from the top.

I'd like to invite NFM to pull out his wallet and examine the inscription "IN GOD WE TRUST" that's written on every one of his coins and bills, in arrogant defiance of the first provision of the First Amendment to our American Constitution.

On the day I see "In the Beginning, Man Created God" inscribed on my money, I might consider taking his claim seriously.

[ControlledDemolition]

14. NFM is clearly delusional. n/t

[TexasObserver]

29. Because the smartest people have more impact than others.

And that's always been true.

[Quantess]

30. I wish I were as optimistic as you.

[TexasObserver]

31. A century or two ago, 99% believed in a god who runs things.

Science and logic are the reason the number has changed.

[pleah]

16. K&R

[LooseWilly]

18. Go Atheists!!! Rah! Rah! Rah!

I'm so sick of Jeebus freaks...

[Mari333]

20. well, phew, it doesnt mention WOMEN. so thats a comfort. nt

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blonndee]

25. Why is it always the spelling that makes it so obvious?

I mean, come on.

[Quantess]

26. I like that. You inspire me to write fiction!

That's really clever, really well written.

One of these days, if I have the time or motivation, I'll write a fictional piece about being born into a Fundamentalist "Christian" RW family, being homeschooled. I'll elaborate how I was encouraged to bow before a cardboard cutout of G.W.Bush, but of course I did so only in the hopes that Chuck Norris would approve...

but then, my whole political world changed when a liberal taught me how to read!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

27. Sigmund Freud figured it out long ago.

People cling to religion because of their need for a father figure who protects them.

[nichomachus]

34. Fascinating book

It's not an easy read, but Julian Jaynes "Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" is a fascinating read.

His claim is that thousands of years ago, out brains were still evolving, and the two halves of the brain -- which we know have different functions -- didn't communicate as well as they do now. When people had certain types of thoughts, they didn't recognize them as coming from their own consciousness, but rather experienced them as auditory hallucinations -- orders or commands coming from outside -- much as schizophrenics do today. This is where the voices in their heads come from.

So, early men, thinking these commands and orders were coming from outside, thought of them as coming from unseen beings - or gods. So, the chief of the tribe, instead of thinking "Hey, this would be a great place to camp for the summer" (and recognizing it as his own nifty idea) would have an auditory hallucination in which the god told him "Camp here for the summer." Then he would run out and tell the people that the god had commanded them to camp there.

Jaynes carefully shows how throughout history, humans began to take more and more responsibility for their own thoughts. And, in fact, the instances of a god talking to people began to diminish -- until it doesn't happen any more except in the occasional disturbed person -- like Carrie Prejean.

The opening chapters of the book are very tough to plow through -- not for the faint of heart.

Jaynes uses the Iliad, which was composed over centuries, to show how this developed. In the beginning of the Iliad, the gods were making humans do everything. By the end of the Iliad, humans were taking responsibility for their own thoughts.

Another interesting factoid in the book is the process people go through when trying to come up with an answer. If they're trying hard to remember something, they look up and away -- in one direction. If they're trying to come up with a lie -- a creative act -- they look up and away, but in the opposite direction. That knowledge comes in really handy.

[Ilsa]

37. Thanks for the rec and comments. I just ordered it per your suggestion. nt

[RagAss]

43. Thanks....going to order !

[NashVegas]

48. Gods Serve Other Purposes

Chief among them, IMO, is the "don't shit where you live" principle.

For that and for other projects, as we can see from watching politics closely, trying to get a mass of people from different backgrounds to all put their shoulder to the wheel takes eons when you try to use rational logic to convince everyone. Get them to accept a language of metaphor and symbolism that matches up to a lofty ideal, no matter how illogical, and the next thing you know, "by this sign you will conquer," more or less. The simplicity is brilliant.

[ldf]

39. its good to see us being visible

i definitely have strong opinions about the matter, but i think the "holy babble" explains it pretty well...

it says "In The Beginning" is when creation took place. i won't bring up any of the inconsistencies THAT concept brings up...

and "Judgement Day" will be "at the end of time".

so, since time neither begins, nor ends, the "holy babble" itself is obviously telling us it is bogus, and nothing more than a creation BY (rich and/or powerful) man, to control and manipulate (lesser) man.

it has certainly worked pretty well on that level.....

i don't need a fairy tale telling me that the way to make life easier is to treat my fellow human like i would like to be treated. or, Can't We All Just Get Along?

pretty simple, really.

but without all the trappings, how can we get in each other's faces and dictate to others how they should live?

that is a bill of goods that i have no intention of buying.

and no one can make me.

so there.

:smiley face sticking tongue out:

edit for spelling

[SammyWinstonJack]

47. "holy babble" LOL

:spray:

[JNelson6563]

49. Truer words were never spoken

or plastered on the side of a bus.

Julie

[JNelson6563]

50. Truer words were never spoken

or plastered on the side of a bus.

Julie

[Towlie]

51. Truer words were never repeated.

:rofl:

[SPKrazy]

53. I Think It Is Sad That Fundies Are So Dogmatic About Everyone Believing

and that atheists seem to have taken the same tack...

who cares who believes or doesn't believe... I sure as hell don't care and think the ad campaign is as stupid as the billboards with Jesus on them or the 10 commandments

why does religion or lack of religion or beliefs or non belief have to be such a damned issue?

:shrug:

I'm for live and let live myself. I have my ideas, you have yours, we coexist and I don't try to make others think as I do, and don't understand why anyone thinks that is necessary...

JMO

flame suit on

[Control-Z]

54. I'd love to see

this campaign in my city. It won't happen (in OC), but I can dream.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. Well, it's still a work in progress.

Considering that the one they invented can't handle his finances without the aid of the inventors. Pass the basket.

[KittyWampus]

58. athiest sure are obsessed with god when it comes to defining themselves and public outreach