Mancow made ALL the torturepologists out to be fools & liars. Who's next?

[Philosoraptor]

Come on hannity, you started this, now the idiot mancow has ended it, so step up to the waterboard challenge sean, and next in line should be limbaugh and cheney, or are they TOO FUCKING COWARDLY TO ADMIT THEY'VE BEEN TOTALLY WRONG ABOUT ALL THIS?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

1. They know they're wrong. They just want to lie and have it both ways.

[vadawg]

2. i dont disagree with waterboarding being torture having been boarded myself

my question is philisophical, would i use it against someone to extract information, the simple answer is yes, if my childs life, or my wife or someone close, then i would use any and all techniques to solicit info. So i guess the real question is how far should a society not an individual be willing to go to obtain what may be pertinent info.

[lapfog_1]

3. The other problem is...

it doesn't work. People will confess to anything to make it stop (like almost all torture). So you are left with no more reliable information than when you started. Will that make you feel better? Assuage your guilt that "you did all that you could"? Even Mancow said he would have confessed to anything to make it stop.

It's torture, we don't torture. It doesn't work.

And the ticking bomb scenario you reference indirectly (My WIFE... My CHILD!!! I will do ANYTHING to make them safe!!) is simply not credible. Witness that the water boarded detainees were water boarded over 100 times in a one month period. Surely your time would be better spent doing something else if your family was in danger.

Not to mention... it's torture and we don't torture... not for you, your wife or your child. Sorry.

(I find it hysterical that we would torture someone and destroy our own morality if it would "save lives" BUT we would NEVER negotiate with terrorists to stop them from killing a hostage or carrying out some horrific act... what is the logic here? To save someone from a terrorist we are willing to pay with our very fabric of our civilization, but we would refuse ON PRINCIPAL to pay those same terrorists $$$$ because they hold someone close to us hostage? WTF! Money over morality?)

[vadawg]

5. okay you say torture dosent work, i disagree, physical pain can be utilised

along with psychological duress to gain intel, its part of the repertoire that is deployed all over the world and has been for centuries, the danger is that you get unreliable info, but as my father told me if 10 people give you the same info, then more than likely its closer to the truth than if just one. As to your morality, thats fine, but if my kids life depended on it then i would use the knowledge i have gained to work on the info i needed, morality be damned.

[eShirl]

6. torture makes people say anytthing to make it stop; WHAT about that do you not get?

For centuries people confessed to witchcraft to make it stop. You'd be trying to save your family by doing something USELESS! You might as well pray to a pretend giant lizard god to spare your family.

[vadawg]

7. okay ill spell it out for you again, its hard to confess to something that is non specific

ie the info i am looking for is not asked of you, i already know from other sources the rough location of say a safehouse, and when techniques are being used on you you give me a more precice location as part of general babbling, that is something gained, now if you are using lots of techniques on lots of people, some physical, some mental then you start to get patterns of info. If you totally believe that torture can not yield results then fine thats your belief, but there are plenty of people in the world who have seen the results for themselves.

[Diclotican]

8. vadawg

vadawg

Then you are very aware that US service men and woman also can be treated the same way that You more or less claim is an legitimate way of extract intel?.. If US service men and woman are been hold against their will at the hands of a foreign power, and they want to know where your next target Will be, then no american service men and woman should be surprised to learn that this actions yourself advocate can be used against YOUR own troops.. That means, water boarding, raping of women, humiliation of men, and so on.. In fact after this no american can never again, claim some moral high ground when it came to use of torture by other nations.. The whole concept of torture been a crime who is punishable is been destroyed by your own claims that you can find intel by torture?... For the last 150 year the civilized world have tried very hard to stop the use of torture - and in most cases even managed to get "old traditions" overturned, so use of torture is off the table. After the US more or less public acknowledged about torture, we have lost at least 50 year of work with the anti-torture policy which have been worked so well.. Even nations who's penal system was more or less based around the use of torture in various forms was stooping the use of torture.. Now after GWB, everything we collective have worked for the last 150 year is just wasted..

Do you americans, who support the use of torture EVER even use your brain before you support this type of behavior????? It sure dosent look that way from where I am living..

Diclotican

[vadawg]

10. Number one, read carefully what i have written, i stated it as a personal moral choice

yes i would use anything and everything to protect my kids, also if you dont think that troops of countries who dont torture are never tortured then you dont get it. I spent a lot of time being trained and having it drummed into me that if captured i would be tortured and that i would break, we were taught to change all battle plans, rv's etc immediately if someone was captured as it was assumed they would be broken. I would love to claim the high moral ground but theres things way more important than my soul.

[lapfog_1]

14. It's not a "personal moral choice"

When you torture a captive, you do it in all of our names. And that is wrong. You don't get to make that choice.

[vadawg]

17. Once again i have not stated that i approve of the government doing this

i believe it is a personal moral choice that the pongo on the ground makes, its not a decision that i personally would have difficulty with given the right circumstances.

[malaise]

40. You cannot break the law to protect your kids

By so doing you become the criminal.

[vadawg]

64. Wow so you would never break the law to protect your kids

im sorry i would do anything to protect my kids, nothing is more important in this world to me than my kids.

[Diclotican]

41. vadawg

vadawg

To not use torture are not a choice of personal morality - or the lack of thereof.. It is just plain stupid and counter active as most police officers the world over can testify to.. Even your own FBI who have used a lot of different techniques over the years to break villains war force than the kids, woman and often men the US are holding in custody in more or less concentration camps at Bagram Air force Base or "outsource" have claimed that you can get a lot more reliable information, by been polite to the prisoner, and treat them with the same respect YOU would want to have, if you ever have been, or was to be in custody of another country.. To just claim that if you can be treated badly, in controlled forms, as your training was, it was never any doubt that YOU would survive both Water Boarding and the other treatment your commanding officers was given you when you was training was it?:.. Not as at Guantanamo Bay, when captors was water boarded 183 times in a row, by ONE MONTH... I serious doubt that YOU EVER was treated that way, and water boared more or less 200 times in a month...

Most Country doesn't attack another country over false claims of WMD, and then was cough lying and plundering a whole country either.. Most Country in Europe at least, tend to be rather peacefully the last 60 year or so. Our last "civil war" What is more known as World War Two harmed millions of people, and destroyed most of Europe in the prosess... We learned the hard way, that war was not the answer... And at least after the Cold war, who more than in one meaning of the world divided the continent, managed to for the most part make a peacefully time after the cold war was over..

Most Country doesn't claim to be on the moral "high ground" when it came to use torture, and then fail so miserable as the US have been doing the last 8-9 years... The truth is when Bush and Co claimed that US forces DOESN'T TORTURE they did.. The fact is that Waterboadring was just the tip of the famous iceberg, and that US was using methods far worse than this.. To sodmoise a 10 year old boy, because Some claimed that his father had Intel about Terror.. Sorry if you ask me, but this is CRIMINALITY and SHOULD HAVE BEEN PUNISHED ACCORDING TO RAPE LAWS... But because the man who sodomized the child was in uniform, he might even been given a medal for "heroism":.. The US of 2000s, is no better than the Nazis of the 1930-1940s... They to tortured Innocent people, and was hang for it after they lost the war.... But off course, the United States of America is over all common law, and practice of law. Because of their "superpower status".. Do most american even understand, why the reputation of US is as it is today in most of the world?

This have nothing with protecting your children at all. If you had had the finest idea of protection your children from harms way, you had supported the rule of LAW. Instead of this you might suport... It is just disgusting to even try to "defend" the fact that children at YOUR OWN AGE is raped by your own soldiers, sodomized, murdered, and harmed for the rest of their natural life because SOME believe their fathers, or mothers had intel that YOU needed... If you had the slightest idea of protecting your own children you would have defended them for this evil... With everything you had at your disposal.. I know I would.. Even that I don't currently have any child of my own, just uncle for 4 kids.. I would defend them at any cost - but I would not accept that others children been raped by Norwegian forces to protect my own.. Children are defenseless, and innocent for their grown ups fault.. And should be treated according to what most Civilized country tend to accept to Rule of Law... Not been treated as mere bodies to be harmed for the rest of their life..

Do you REALLY believe that this children who the US are raping, so demising and torturing Will not grow up to hate, and I really mean HATE everything that resemblant anything American?.. The only thing YOU and your fellow people is doing is in fact made more terrorist, by give the children all the tools in the handbook to became terrorist.. What the current policy in doing, is just making more and more enemies of your own country.. You have no idea how harming this evidences about abuses, raping of woman and children, brutality and so on have on the outside world do you?.. If you did, you would have been so ashamed on your peers that you probably would do what is right in the end...

And that is what I hope for, that the US would to the right thing in the end, and do the accountability that the victims of GWBs policy of torture deserve.. This is just criminality on a State level nothing more.. And if US can do it, everyone else can do it?..
It is Maybe a reason the US never signed the treaty who was made to protect children I guess.. We all know why they didn't do that, because if they had, they would not been able to rape children in Iraq, Afghanistan and good know elsewhere... O yes your soldiers is truly brave:sarcasm:

Diclotican

[vadawg]

65. lol you really think the european laws are that great

if you lived as a minority in the great european system then you would not rely apon the laws to protect your children, just ask the turkish immigrants etc of germany.

[Diclotican]

75. vadawg

vadawg

Have never says that the european law system is perfect my friend... And will never claim that our legal system is perfect also, because in difference from the US, Europe have a far different history, with a lot of nations strifing for power, for the last 1800-2000 year or so.. And in difference from US, who have been more or less the same since good who knows, most european have had a turbulent past, just the last 20 year Europe have changed a lot... But we have also learned of our past, we doesn't sit and do the same over and over and over.. Europeans might not be as powerfully as it was 80 year ago - but if you was ever to visit our old continent, you would maybe discover that we are far more at peace now, than we was just 20 year ago... And that we work far better together today, than we did in the books of history..


For the most part even as an minority in Europe, we are protected by the same laws as the majority are.. But off course it happened that minorities in Europe are treated rather bad. In germany as in Norway.. But for the most part, minorities are not treated badly, not in Western Europe at least.. In Eastern Europe it can be far worse to be member of an minority... And that is sad.

But, this is NOT that I was typing to you on the subject, and it is typical for many to change the subject.. What we was "talking" about her mr Vadawg was the fact that torture is illegal, and should have been stopped long time ago. To me it looks like many in your fine great country are just as ignorant as your country is big, and that everything can be claimed to be okay, as long as it happened to be "the wrong people".. Even children have been tortured - and it is maybe therefore a lot of pictures and document are not been shown to the american public.. If you just know what torture can do, then I am pretty sure that you will turn 180 degrees and NEVER support the concept of torture to get information... My grandfather had an brother who spend 3 year in Dachau Concentration camp between 1942 and 1945, he was tortured hard by Gestapo both here in Norway, and in Germany.. He survived, but barley, his experience in the hand of some of germans worst tortures.. And he was never the same man, as he was before he was arrested, tortured and put in concentration camps by the germans.. And for the rest of his life, he had a red glowing hate for germans, and for everything german in original..

The same will be tha case with many of the victims of YOUR country's attitude this time around.. What this torture of woman, children, men have made is a feeling of revenge from thousands, maybe ten of thousands of people who maybe have not had to much against americans at first - but who surly have a grudge against americans today.. And who would blame them?.. I would not do it, and every with a brain should also understand that your concept of torturing have just doing a bad thing far worse...

On the other side, many germans did supported the idea of the STATE using violence against inmates in concentration camps.. Even that the whole concept was hided for the most germans. It was not unknown to most germans, that something brutally happened in "re-education camps" true the country.. And the camps was not that invisible to most germans too... But off course compared to what the camps was coming to be after 1939, the camps was rather "nice" because if you act strictly according to what they wanted you to do to, you could be released, after a while.. And even right under the war, prisoners from camps was released, but had to sign a paper to never told anyone what they have seen and experienced inside..

And that is maybe the case here, as long as enough americans support the idea of torture to "make intel" this horrible act of crimes will continue I am afraid.. Maybe the best thing mr Obama should do, is to release the pictures and show the whole world what happened under mr Bush watch?.. Yes it will be hard for most american, bur regardless if you want to hide the truth the truth will came out sooner or later.. As pictures from your infamous Vietnam War even to day surface and is showing a far worse picture of what happened than Pentagon told most amerians...

Diclotican

[verges]

45. Yes, Americans are tortured,

That doesn't mean that we should give tacit approval or acceptance of this. Which nis what we do when WE torture.

[CJCRANE]

51. You have just negated your own pro-torture argument:

"we were taught to change all battle plans, rv's etc immediately".

[hootinholler]

56. Then you will have no problem sitting in old sparky, right?

We hanged people for waterboarding before. You go ahead and base your defense on morality, I'll base the prosecution on the law.

My money is on the law winning once we get it into court.

-Hoot

[lapfog_1]

9. So... you THINK you know where something is

you torture your suspect (remember, you don't really KNOW anything because if you did, you wouldn't even need to question this person). There are two choices now...

1) He or she confirms what you "know". Great... now what? If the information is more specific, and because it follows what you "know"... is it correct? Suppose he or she really wants to tell you, but doesn't know exactly... but gives you a false "exact address"... or, perhaps trained in their own version of SERE school, he gives you a FALSE exact address, but he knows it's plausible. Do you now raid that address and kill everyone there, even though the REAL bad guys hangout is down the street? What exactly do you now "know" that you didn't "know" before you tortured.

2) He gives you an address which doesn't comport with what you "know"? Now what? Is he lying or has torture broken him or is he just making it up to get you to stop torturing. See... you don't really KNOW anything, do you. Do you now rush off to shoot up the new address, even though it's not in the area that you were SURE was the right area? Or do you simply torture him again and see if the story changes?

Jack Bauer is a TV character. Reality is much harder than that.

And who are the plenty of people you reference... care to start citing names? The only people I've heard that say it works are people who don't really KNOW.

[vadawg]

12. tell you what go look at what the narcos do, any street gang in battles over turf

theres lots of evidence all over the world, as to giving you a false address, you are missing the point, you dont feed the subject any info, the whole point is break them and have them spilling info, even if 95% is gibberrish the other 5% may tally with info you already have. Also the only people ive ever heard say it dosent work have an agenda, not experience in the field. But once again its a difference of opinion.

[lapfog_1]

19. So give us some names of those "experienced in the field" people

You can't because it doesn't work.

And it's not a difference of opinion. It's a fact that it doesn't work.

http://www.boingboing.net/2008/03/10/fbi-interrogator-tor.html

(FBI interrogator who debriefed Al Qaida members)

http://www.amnestyusa.org/war-on-terror/reports-statements-and-issue-briefs/military-intelligence-and-law-enforcement-officers-opposing-torture/page.do?id=1031036

(Former top military, intelligence, and law officers on torture)

http://www.military.com/news/article/exinterrogator-torture-doesnt--work.html

(Another former CIA agent in Iraq)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-04-20/torture-doesnt-work/

(yet another agent in Iraq)

And so on... dozens of references.

[vadawg]

20. lol you think the only sources are american, im always amazed at how everything is assumed to be

amerocentric, ill stand by what i was taught and what i have seen over people with agendas talking to the public. You dont need to use torture or other techniques thats fine, but i would under certain circumstances.

[lapfog_1]

24. Wow... so AMERICAN military commanders, legal experts,

intelligence officers and law enforcement officers are not trustworthy sources anymore?

THIS is what you are going to hang your hat on?

You still haven't provided sources.

I'm guessing that you have some NAZI studies or something in your hip pocket to cite. Or possibly SAVAK, or maybe some other third world dictators to cite.

Actually, you could simply go back to the Spanish Inquisition for papers and articles on the effectiveness of torture in rooting out the heretics.

I hear that if you dunk a witch in a pond and she doesn't float, then she wasn't a witch, but if she does float, she must be a witch and then you can drown her or burn her at the stake, whichever you feel is better to remove her evil influence that threatens your wife and your child!

[Cirque du So-What]

50. Here's one outside the 'amerocentric' circle

Make the acquaintance of Hanns Scharff - Master Interrogator of the Luftwaffe

Hanns-Joachim Gottlob Scharff (December 16, 1907 – September 10, 1992) was a German Luftwaffe interrogator during the Second World War. He has been called the "Master Interrogator" of the Luftwaffe and possibly all of Nazi Germany; he has also been praised for his contribution in shaping U.S. interrogation techniques after the war. Merely an Obergefreiter (the equivalent of a senior lance corporal), he was charged with interrogating every German-captured American fighter pilot during the war after his becoming an interrogation officer in 1943. He is highly praised for the success of his techniques, especially considering he never used physical means to obtain the required information. No evidence exists he even raised his voice in the presence of a prisoner of war (POW). Scharff’s interrogation techniques were so effective that he was often called upon to assist other German interrogators in their questioning of bomber pilots and aircrews, including those crews and fighter pilots from countries other than the United States. Additionally, Scharff was charged with questioning V.I.P.s (Very Important Prisoners) that funneled through the interrogation center, namely senior officers and world-famous fighter aces.

After the end of WWII, Scharff was invited by the United States Air Force to give lectures on his interrogation techniques and first-hand experiences. The U.S. military later incorporated Scharff’s methods into its curriculum at its interrogation schools. Scharff's methods are still taught in US Army interrogation schools.

<snip>

Technique
Scharff was opposed to physically abusing prisoners with the intent to obtain information. Taught on the job, Scharff instead relied upon the Luftwaffe's approved list of techniques which mostly involved making the interrogator seem as if he is his prisoner's greatest advocate while in captivity.

Scharff described various experiences with new POWs, outlining the procedure most of his fellow interrogators were instructed to use. Initially, the POW's fear and sense of disorientation, combined with isolation while not in interrogation, were exploited to gain as much initial biographical information as possible. A prisoner was frequently warned that unless he could produce information beyond name, rank, and serial number, such as the name of his unit and airbase, the Luftwaffe would have no choice but to assume he was a spy and be turned over to the Gestapo for questioning. For Scharff, this technique apparently worked quite well. In addition to initially preying upon his prisoner's fears of the infamous Gestapo, he advertised himself as their closest ally in their predicament, telling them that while he would like nothing more than to see them safely onto their next position in a POW camp, his hands were tied unless the prisoner gave him the few details that he requested to help him properly identify the prisoner as a true POW.

After a prisoner's fear had calmed, Scharff continued to act as a good friend to the prisoner, including sharing jokes, homemade food items, and occasionally alcoholic beverages. Scharff was fluent in English and knowledgeable about British customs and some American, which helped him to gain the trust and friendship of many of his prisoners. Some high profile prisoners were treated to outings to German airfields (one POW was allowed to take a German aircraft for a trial run), tea with German fighter aces, swimming pool excursions, and luncheons among other things. Prisoners were treated well medically at the nearby Hone Mark Hospital, and some POWs were occasionally taken from captivity to visit their comrades at this hospital for company's sake as well as the better meals provided there. Scharff was best known for taking his prisoners on strolls through nearby woods, first having them swear an oath of honor that they would not attempt an escape during their walk. Scharff chose not to use these nature walks as a time to directly ask his prisoners obvious military-related questions, but instead relied on the POWs' desire to speak to anyone outside of isolated captivity about informal, generalized topics. Prisoners often volunteered information the Luftwaffe had instructed Scharff to acquire, frequently without realizing they had done so.

more...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff

No need to reply; I've got low expectations that you'll admit even a scintilla of evidence contrary to your opinion, but by Dog it's out there for everyone else to see!

[vadawg]

21. double post

[BeFree]

36. Oh?

Anything to protect your kids, eh?

Well, now you have opened them up to being tortured. Looks like you failed, because now that you have supported torture your kids may be next.

[vadawg]

61. lol you think that because i wont do things that anyone who is after me wont

thats the viewpoint of people who live nice save lifes, and can afford to be on the high ground. I hate to break it to you but theres a lot of people in the world who dont care about your rules and laws, they will do whatever is necessary and laugh at the morality that you impose on them.

[lapfog_1]

72. Which is a so-what point.

If WE ignore those laws and rights, how are we any better than the people that you claim "laugh at us". As if their laughter should affect how we deal with them or even how we feel about them.

And you seem to have a huge fetish about your children being in such terrible danger. Go live in a different country then, one that will protect you and your children by striping everyone of their rights. A true "nanny state".

But quit telling us that you would torture someone (even admitting that it IS torture) because you suspect they might know something about a terrorist plot... and commit such illegal acts under a "higher law" that you think applies. Putting yourself above the law.

[vadawg]

74. lol i dont think ive stated anything about terrorists, im plainly talking about a situation

were i would do anything including torture to protect my kids, once again i would put myself above laws if i had too to protect my kids, ive found through experience that the laws of civilised countries are just as fickle when it comes to protecting certain groups as the laws of despots.

[sledgehammer]

81. The US, and a lot of other places, are nations of laws

You are free to do as you choose, but in most cases you will face the consequences.

Nothing trumps love for family. And yes, if I were put in a Jack Bauer fantasy where I was almost certain that someone in front of me had information that could save my family, then I may be tempted to do something akin to torture.

And maybe I would use torture, who knows? I may get right or wrong info, but at least it's something to pass on to Chloe to follow-up on (ok, I'm really going too far with the 24 analogy!).

However, I would also know that what I did was illegal, and I need to face the consequences. Maybe I would have saved my family, and that would perhaps be enough solace for me, but I need to completely accept the long arm of the law.

And that's where things are getting muddy in this whole torture debate. By legalizing/condoning torture, we have set a precedent that something blatantly unconstitutional is acceptable, and that those who formulate and support it will escape punishment.

Internally you may use the end to justify the means, but that's not how the law should look at it, especially when it involves something as grave as physical injury.

[Diclotican]

77. vadawg

vadawg

As far as I know, the US army, US Navy, US Marines and USAF are not any common Street gang... And should be hold to a far greater standard than a mob, or a street gang battling over turf and drugs...

But if you say that your brave men and woman are no more than thugs, mobsters and street gangs fighting over drug control. Then I can understand your support for torture and violence to get some information... But if your brave soldiers are just criminals, then they could be treated as sutch, and be put to prison, for a very long time.. And I dosen't se you advocate excactly that my friend...


Diclotican

[Are_grits_groceries]

11. Be specific.

Who are the "plenty of people" and what did they learn? What were the situations and what were the results??

[vadawg]

16. tell you what you believe what you want, ill keep my opinion

but i sure as hell am not going to convince you to change your opinion, and im not trying to, just stating the fact that i would use techniques you would find unsavoury if i had to.

[lapfog_1]

22. I sure hope you don't get the opportunity...

because I am much more like Jesse Ventura...

I would prosecute the people that carried it out, the people that wrote half-assed opinions to give legal cover, and the people that ordered it. And I would call for the max prison sentence possible. We used to hang people that did this, but I suppose that in our enlightened days we would only lock you up for life with no possibility of parole.

It's a crime.

Or more to the point (since your wife and child are in danger)....

Your wife and child have been kidnapped and are being held ransom by terrorists. But they don't want money, they want YOU to kill someone else, say a politician that you can get close to. You would torture a SUSPECT to get information that might save your wife and child. Would you also commit murder? Since morality isn't a guidepost... what would prevent you from carrying out the assassination? Not the morality... so what then?

And it's not that we find it "unsavory"... we find it immoral and illegal. Unsavory makes sound like we ate a over cooked piece of chicken for dinner.

[vadawg]

23. i suppose you are more important than your wife and child so you would

sacrifice them as long as you are okay, i come from a different culture were my children come before me every time, hopefully you will never have to make this choice as i fear for your family if you do.

[lapfog_1]

28. People who claim to do things for "the children"

rarely do, actually.

You should worry more about providing a role model and a moral compass for your children. You, me, AND your children are all going to die someday. It matters more HOW you live your life than it matters THAT you lived your life. Same goes for your children.

[vadawg]

62. It matters to you that you live your life according to what you believe

but your beliefs on how others live theor lives matter not, do you really believe that someone who kills someone to protect their child or friend really cares if you approve or not. Once again i notice this disconnect between people from what you would call civilised world and the peoples who inhabit the rest of the planet.

[lapfog_1]

76. The old "us versus THEM' argument.

not only that, but THEY are less than human, not even civilized .. look at the filth and squalor that they live in!

They come from cultures that are 1000 or 2000 (or 4000 in the case of Iraq) years old, they have had civilization for thousands of years. They have criminals, even misguided zealots. So do we. Within MY lifetime we have had criminals who would hang a man in front of his family simply for being black and trying to vote, or applying for a job. We cannot pass judgment on a country or a culture because it has some religious nuts who think little of life.

As for me caring about someone torturing another person to protect their children (a common theme with you), yes, I do care, I care very much. Should I see such illegal activity, I will do all that I can to stop it. Up to and including killing you! Much like I would stop a rapist or murderer should I catch them in the act.

[Are_grits_groceries]

25. Well that was lame!

I asked a legitimate question. You claimed that "but there are plenty of people in the world who have seen the results for themselves" in regards to the effectiveness of torture.

I asked for specific examples, and you run for the hills. You tell me to believe what I want to. You won't even defend your position adequately so how can I believe that what you base your belief on is nothing but vague twaddle passed around for years.

You have tried to make it a fact that torture works. You just stated the only obvious fact: "just stating the fact that i would use techniques you would find unsavoury if i had to"

[lapfog_1]

33. I think he went away... oh well, I was really enjoying ripping up every one of his assertions.

Sigh.

No other mice to play with.

[Are_grits_groceries]

34. Meh... took his marbles and went home. nt

[lapfog_1]

38. Nah... pretty sure he lost his marbles before he ever got here. - n/t

[Flubadubya]

35. He may have gone away because of your excellent response...

Your response in post #28 is absolutely fantastic. You couldn't have distilled the truth any better or any clearer. Props to a brilliant "bon mot"!!! :thumbsup: :toast:

[lapfog_1]

37. Thanks... but not my words.

I don't remember who said it originally, but basically it is the enlightened teachings of Buddha or Jesus or even Mohammad (though I admit to not being familiar with his teachings). Or Gandhi.

Or maybe none of them. or all of them.

But on this memorial day weekend, celebrating those that fought for our rights AND our chosen responsibilities... and died for us, it's sad that many in this nation would throw away what those heroes fought for just so they can live another day, month or decade. That is the opposite of the way of those that died for our country chose to live their lives.

I hated it every time Bush or Cheney (and now Obama has done it too) would start a speech by saying that they swore an oath to protect us.

That is bullshit. They swore an oath (as every member of our military does, and many in high places in the government) to defend and protect the CONSTITUTION. Not us, not even our nation, but our constitution. The ideals that formed this country. That all men are equal, and that we have inalienable rights. And it doesn't say this just for citizens... but for everyone in the world.

[Ikonoklast]

49. vadawg is an LEO, or so he professes.

And as one is an authoritarian personality who would justify any means to procure the results he desires to obtain.

Forget about facts and the studies done by people vastly more knowledgeable about the subject, he knows in his heart that what he would need to do will work because he believes it will work.

He states that he would break the law in order to enforce it. That's all I need to know about his mindset. It's the same one that sends innocent people to their deaths on bad testimony and faulty evidence.

Do anything to support the 'bust'. Even if it's illegal.

[vadawg]

66. sorry you seem to have missed the point, i uphold the laws that i am obliged to uphold

but if it was my kids on the line then an older oath takes over, its really that simple. Its the way my family has lived for centuries and is the only way we managed to survive so called more civilised peoples laws.

[lapfog_1]

71. You are a situational morality person.

What is moral to you shifts depending on the situation.

Which is odd because that is usually the complaint about us liberals by conservatives.

You probably don't like the ACLU much either. Them believing that rights apply to everyone, even terror suspects (you see, your very first mistake is that you refuse to call them suspects and insist that they are terrorists, having tried and convicted them in your mind before you torture them to find out what they know).

[vadawg]

73. yup whats moral shifts with everybody unless your willing to tell me you never compromise

do you really mean to say you would never steal even if it waws to feed your family, or kill to protect your child, its easy to have high morals when you are safe at home, but there comes times when you have to do stuff you may find morally reprehensible because thats the choice you have to make. Yup i believe everybody has rights, but as i stated i am willing to suspend those rights for you or anybody in order to protect my children and ill suffer the consequences, i dont know how this so hard for people to grasp, escpecially if you are a parent.

[lapfog_1]

78. Yes, I actually will not steal to eat...

I will beg, but not steal.

But then, I am a moral person and I live by a code of conduct. I do not rate life so high that I would do anything, even killing another or torturing another, to keep mine.

On this memorial day weekend, you would do well to remember those of us (including my brother) that lived by this code, did not take the easy way out when it was offered to them, and gave their lives as a result. They did NOT give their lives so the United States could someday act like a dictatorship of some tyrant, someone who tortures their enemies, throws them into dark prison cells to be held indefinitely, without charge or trial, all at the whim of one person ( or someone willing to act in the name of the President ).

This is what they fought and died for. Read it.

=================================================================================================================

Article the first. .... After the first enumeration required by the first article of the Constitution, there shall be one Representative for every 30,000 until the number shall amount to 100, after which the proportion shall be so regulated by Congress, that there shall be not less than 100 Representatives, nor less than one Representative for every 40,000 persons, until the number of Representatives shall amount to 200; after which the proportion shall be so regulated by Congress, that there shall not be less than 200 Representatives, nor more than one Representative for every 50,000 persons.

Article the second ... No law, varying the compensation for the services of the Senators and Representatives, shall take effect, until an election of Representatives shall have intervened.

Article the third ...... Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Article the fourth..... A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Article the fifth ....... No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Article the sixth ...... The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Article the seventh .. No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Article the eighth ... In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

Article the ninth .. In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Article the tenth ..... Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Article the eleventh .... The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Article the twelfth ... The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”



===============================================================================================================


Note in particular the sixth, seventh, eighth and tenth articles.

"nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"... "the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial"...
Do these things MEAN anything to you? Have you ever seen them before? It's only the set of rules that every politician of high political office and ALL members of our military, swear to defend and protect, against all enemies foreign and domestic...

Note also that these rights extend to all persons, not just citizens. Everyone. Even accused terrorists. This isn't what makes us "weak"... it is, in fact, what's makes us strong.

[vadawg]

63. Number one, do you really believe that you could not be made to talk

if so then you are unique, everyone talks, unless they die first, this has been known for millenium. you can believe whatever you like, but unless you can tell me that you could never be broken then you havent really convinced yourself. Specific examples are not something i am going into in my own circumstances, suffice it to say im sure there are enough internet sources that tell how many countries still use methods you would describe as torture and im sure that the intelligence services are going to waste there time if the methods never worked. As to it being a stated fact as i said i am never going to convince you, same as having experienced what i have and seen you will never convince me that people can be broken.

[lapfog_1]

79. People will talk, but they will tell you anything to make it stop.

The truth or whatever story they think you wish to hear.

As Jesse Ventura has stated over and over... "give me 10 minutes with Dick Cheney and he will confess to being a member of the Manson family".

It doesn't make what they say true. And because of this, you are no better off than you were before.

If they are really a part of a terror cell, they will know very little about the identities or activities of the other cells, the isolation being complete enough that you will NOT be able to confirm 10 "terrorists" and get the same story out of each one, making the "confirmation" theory useless.

This is all standard "revolutionary" or "insurgent" theory, known for at least 60 years or more. Probably a lot longer. Al Qiada is not stupid. They have training camps where instructors go through this stuff... just because they know that everyone can be "broken" as you say. And just like our SERE training, they train their operatives to give up "true lies" (lies that are mostly true, except for crucial details).

And no, if you are not willing to cite references 24 hours later, I'm certainly not taking you at YOUR word that you "know things and stuff".

[Ichingcarpenter]

15. OK..... I'll spell it out for you......... You are a Cheney torture apologist

your thought processes are as modern as the Spanish inquisition.

[eShirl]

52. not at all; they will make up shit

learn your freakin' history

[Harry Monroe]

57. Life is not an episode of "24". It's way more complicated than that.

Torture yields results, but usually not the ones you're looking for. Your results may vary.

BTW, are you e.e. cummings or something, or do you just have something against capitalization and punctuation?

[lapfog_1]

13. use spell check. Really.

Your father is incorrect as well.

The absolute best way to know what they know is to infiltrate their organization. The next best way is to listen in on their conversations. The third best way is to capture one and then use the other tricks and mechanizations to gain their trust and have them VOLUNTEER what they know. Torture, for all the reasons given in my other replies in this thread, doesn't even make the list.

Do you know why they are called "terrorist cells"?

How many people (terrorists) know any given fact that the terrorists don't want revealed? Any given fact?

[vadawg]

18. yeah okay, once again all youve listed is other techniques i alluded to

these are all fine and dandy, but sometimes the application of duress is what finally breaks someone. everyone is different, for me lack of sleep worked real well, others it takes stressers, others physical duress.

[lapfog_1]

30. Uh, again, no it doesn't

and you can't find any reputable source that says that it does. In fact, usually the application of "duress" (as you call it) either hardens their resolve to not tell you shit (and this is likely the case for almost all of the "hardened terrorists" from Al Qaida that are on a mission from God) OR they will tell you anything you want to hear (Saddam had tea every Tuesday with Osama Bin Laden, and your President Obama - a secret muslim - attended whenever he could!).

[ProfessorGAC]

32. You're Being Obstinate and Ridiculous

You're using circular logic to justify your position, and using opinion to support your point of view.

You've been given cites of experts who suggest it is a useless tool for obtaining information, and you dismiss it because it's too "american". How convenient!

Then you drop the "if my wife or kids" bomb. How intellectually lazy!

The reason this topic came up is because Mancow volunteered himself and now says he would have admitted to anything to make it stop.

As much as i loathe that twerp, i'll take his word over yours. His smacks of honesty. Your's not so much.
GAC

[Philosoraptor]

47. I HATE mancow & all he stands for, but now he's got SOME integrity

And at this point, I too will take his word over any rush and repeat rebub torturepologist.

Torture's bad, m'kay?

[JI7]

26. how about missing children cases ? should suspects be tortured then to gain info ?

[lapfog_1]

31. They could be buried underground! Running out of air!

Torture the sons of bitches! Kill a few if you have to! The CHILDREN!

(oh wait, some other group of guys that also drove the same car as our suspects actually kidnapped the children... oops... better tell the ones in this group left alive that we made a mistake, sorry...)

[eShirl]

53. "The CHILDREN!" will not be saved by any of that

but it might make the torturer feel slightly less helpless while the children die anyway

[lapfog_1]

59. Did I really need to add a :sarcasm: smiley? Probably not... I hope not. - n/t

[vadawg]

67. i guess thats the call if the family want to go there,

i love how moral people get when its someone elses family, can you really say that you would not do anything to protect your kids, if so then i am sure you are going to let someone else make the hard choices for you.

[JI7]

70. so you want vigilantism ? what if family members are suspects ?

who gets to decide if we torture them to get info about missing relatives ?

[verges]

44. Also....

it gives tacit approval of the enemies techniques. I realize that they are probably going to do it anyway (it IS a terror technique). But if WE torture, we lose any right to get pissed when our people are physically abused.

It basically gives terrorists permission to be barbaric.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

42. It doesn't matter whether it works. IT'S ILLEGAL.

Robbing banks works if you need money. Murder works if you want to get rid of someone you don't like. But they are illegal, so you don't do them. Anyhow, if any form of "enhanced interrogation" such as waterboarding works (and it doesn't; it's intended to elicit FALSE confessions), why don't we also use the rack and the iron maiden and hot pokers, too? It's a very slippery slope. And that's why it's ILLEGAL.

Very simple.

[HooptieWagon]

43. The information is completely unreliable.

The purpose of waterboarding is to elicit false confessions. A false confession does not make anyone safer, it only generates propaganda for the parties in control.

[walldude]

54. Thing is you are never going to be in that position.

You are never going to be in a position where you need to torture someone to save lives. Your question should be would I do this if I wasn't sure that my children were in danger. Would you do it if they might at some point in the future be in danger? Would you do it to find out if they might be in danger? The Bush administration wasn't even doing that they were doing it to cover their political asses.

The "ticking timebomb" scenario only exists in the movies. You are using a fake right wing talking point to defend an indefensible position.

[RetroLounge]

55. Torturpologists are disgusting

:puke:

RL

[ljm2002]

58. So you assume ahead of time...

...that you have the right person. And if you do not, and they know nothing about what you want to find out, they'll tell you anything just to make it stop.

That's one problem.

Another problem is that torture must never, ever have the protection of law.

If in fact, you had someone who you actually knew had planted a bomb that would kill thousands or tens of thousands, and you felt you simply had to use torture techniques -- okay, I think most of us can see that argument. But we can *never* make it *legal* to do so.

If you tortured the guy, found out the truth, and disarmed the bomb thereby saving the aforesaid thousands of lives, you would still have committed an illegal act. In that circumstance, it is likely that people would make allowances for extenuating circumstances. But saying that torture can be legal is another thing altogether. We already see how rampant the abuse of authority is: every week there is a new video up on Youtube showing cops going over that line. Do we really want to have laws that permit barbarity?

By the way: the "Oh if it was your mother/daughter/kids/etc..." line is the oldest tactic in the book, used by right wing politicians whenever they want to paint the opposition as weak on law and order. It is effective because it appeals to the visceral reactions -- of course any of us will react differently when we have a personal stake in a situation. That does not dictate what the laws should be. In particular, the law is not meant to be a tool of vengeance -- except in primitive societies, or for the Taliban or their ilk.

[Orangeone]

60. Another problem with torture

What if the person is innocent and doesn't know anything? The torturer will keep ratcheting up the torture, convinced that you are holding out on them...! I'm sure that's happened a lot already and I feel distressed just thinking about it.

[vadawg]

68. As i said i dont think government should condone torture

i was just stating that what americans consider torture is used by the intelligence services, criminal gangs, tribes etc, though you may not consider them viable and working, these groups seem to think so, also i personally would not seek your permission to do whatever i believed neccessary to protect my kids or member of my family whether you would approve or not.

[cap]

80. let's remove the absolute prohibition on "cruel and unusual punishment" in the Constitution

That way it is crystal clear what our values are.

Communist countries once looked at us a moral beacon because we held tight to our values under duress. One of the main values was respect for the individual.

We can remove this illusion once and for all through a constitutional amendment. Or, we can say, no "cruel and unusual punishment" for running a stop sign and let all the rest be a relative value. Let us say that the Nuremburg trials were really a farce -- a punishment of the losers in a war. We should not pursue Milosevic in the Hague for War Crimes because we are doing likewise. The Cambodian killing fields and the slaughter in Rwanda, ditto. Desmond Tutu and his Truth and Reconciliation Council is a joke. The Serbs, the Khmer Rouge, the vigilantes in Africa all thought that what they were doing were necessary to protect their wives and kids. So did Hitler. Many Nazi posters extolled the virtue of protecting the Aryan wife and kids.

I grew up watching B grade World War II movies where the Nazis were such terrible villians for slapping our soldiers. How quaint.

People around the world will fear us because we will dish out physical punishment without bounds for those who transgress American interests.

We will lose a lot of power in this world. Remember the four pillars of power: military, economic, diplomatic and cultural. By weakening the moral part of cultural power, we will also weaken our diplomatic power to persuade. We don't have the economic power like we use to. So we will rely more heavily on military power.

The one problem with relying on military power more extensively is that we don't have the economic base to support it. So our ever increasing reliance on military power will actually lead us to be less safe. The increasing militarization of the economy will suppress economic growth.

As we become less safe, we will become more fearful and even more tempted to use increasing amounts of torture.

If only we could just torture and let what Happens in Vegas, Stay in Vegas.

Unfortunately, torture has a bad effect on discipline. Torturers are known to have problems following orders from their superiors. They get a "God complex" and think that they are above all laws, including military discipline and respect for the chain of command.

Just what do you think the torturers are going to do when they come marching home? What will Daddy tell his child on his knee or his wife resting in his arms? There is no glorious tale of combat. The torturers keep their tales hidden. Why? It is the story of breaking bones, perverse sexual acts, and turning sane men into blithering idiots. There is no glory in this. Read the end story of the troops at Abu Ghraib. It is not a pretty end to the tale. It is tale of profound psychological distortion. Their lives have been ruined. If only that story could end with those folks. What do you think their relationships with their family and community are going to be? I can tell you, in one word, DYSFUNCTIONAL. These communities will end up with dealing with abuse and neglect, at the very least. One woman has covered herself in a black tattoo. Evil has a way of perpetuating itself. Innocents at home will suffer from contact with ex-torturers.

Do you want your kid to be a torturer? Do you want your girl to smear her menstrual blood on the face of a terrorist? Or to grope a terrorists' body? Or to smear feces on their face? Or to nick their private parts with a pen knife? What kind of wife do you think she will make her husband? Do you really think she will be able to have normal sexual relations? Or, is that kind of torture, OK as long as it is someone else's kid who is stuck with the consequences? I certainly don't want my kid doing this stuff.

Consider the alternative: that there are values worth sacrificing your life and the lives of your family for, like the respect for the individual that the American Constitution was written for. It is the value of Respect for the Individual--his inalienable right to the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness vs. the value of Self-Preservation at All Costs.

[Hubert Flottz]

4. hannity and limbo couldn't make it through the first day of

boot camp. "MOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMY!" "I Want My MOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMY!"

[opihimoimoi]

69. Rush would need a large O2 Tank nx to him....Hannity would need 3 DEPENDS

[JI7]

27. maybe we should torture those close to the missing boy with cancer

after all there is a life on the line. maybe the father knows something he is refuses to tell us. maybe we should torture to find out.

[JI7]

29. torture was used to pressure people to admit to things in order for Bush/Cheney to justify

the crap they were doing.

it didn't matter if it was true or not. just as they made up the bs about WMD, then it was about bringing freedom and democracy, then it was about fighting terrorists. just make up shit to do what you already want to do.

[Historic NY]

39. Beck would be good..we need some tears.

[Philosoraptor]

46. Wow! Thread jacked by an actual torturepologist! Amazing

[Optical.Catalyst]

48. Who's Next? I want everybody in the Bush administration who used the term "EIT" waterboarded

Anyone in the Bush Administration who justified their actions by substituting the code words "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" for the word "torture" needs to experience waterboarding

I am talking about:

Dick Cheney
Condoleezza Rice
Don Rumsfeld
John Ashcroft
Albert0 Gonzales
Tom Ridge
Michael Chertoff

for starters.

Put a camera in their face and ask them straight out "Did you think being waterboarded was torture".