Chairman of the JCS: Military to Comply if Gay Ban Law Changes

[pepperbear]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-05-24-mullen-interview_N.htm?csp=24&RM_Exclude=Juno

President Obama's top military adviser said Sunday the Pentagon has enough challenges — including two wars — without rushing to overturn a decade-old policy that bans gays and lesbians from serving openly in the military and incites political and social factions on both sides.

*snip*

"The president has made his strategic intent very clear, that it's his intent at some point in time to ask Congress to change this law," Mullen said. "I think it's important to also know that this is the law, this isn't a policy. And for the rules to change, a law has to be changed."

*snip*

"We have a lot on our plate right now," he said.


Stepmother: Well, I see no reason why you can't go... if you get all your work done.
Cinderella: Oh, I will. I promise.
Stepmother: And, if you can find something suitable to wear.
Cinderella: I'm sure I can. Oh, thank you, Stepmother.
(she exits)
Drizella: Mother, do you realize what you just said?
Stepmother: Of course. I said, "If."

[Tangerine LaBamba]

1. Congress will never pass such legislation,

so it's easy for the Chairman of the JCS to make such a statement. It makes the military look absolutely open-minded, knowing full well that it's not going to happen.

His tune would be, I daresay, a bit different if his Commander-in-Chief were to sign an Executive Order suspending the current rule of law that forbids gays in the military.

Too bad my man Obama - and, yes, I still am rooting for him - lacks the balls to do this ...................

[konnichi wa]

2. I don't understand how the prez can countermand a law. Legally, anyhow.

Isn't that the sort of thing we ragged on Dubya for doing...or trying to do?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

4. Read the history of Executive Orders,

and you'll find a perfectly wonderful and legal instrument that was - naturally - corrupted by George W. Bush.

You might find it interesting to know that the very first Executive Order was signed by Abraham Lincoln - it's known today as "The Emancipation Proclamation."

In its finest form, as it was intended by the framers of our Constitution, it is a very efficient way to override unfair laws, as witnessed by what Lincoln did. Harry Truman ordered the integration of the Armed Forced via Executive Order.

Read up on its history. It's fascinating .............................

[Proud Liberal Dem]

3. Call your congressmen

He wants Congress to pass a repeal of DADT since they enacted that POS law in the first place- plus it won't simply be able to be reinstated by the next Repuke POTUS (which will probably be sooner rather than later now that a lot of the left seems to be rapidly deserting Obama). I don't know how lawful/constitutional (because we all care about too, right?) any other solution- other than the courts simply declaring it unconstitutional- actually is.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

5. A big waste of time -

Congress is not about to take on anything so controversial. They're a lot of things, but they're not suicidal. And if it's a judicial overview you want, the road to the U.S. Supreme Court is a long and tortuous one. I would not expect this Court to do anything except uphold DODT.

The most efficient way to do it would be via Executive Order. That'll never happen, though, because Obama is not politically suicidal, either, although I honestly believe that, ultimately, it would be the smartest political move he could make.

Balls. No one's got 'em ......................

[Divine Discontent]

7. I want the black red & blue one to remember all the anti-gay beatings taken by GLBT people because

we don't have a Congress that has the guts (much better reference than "balls", that's sexist, I know you don't mean to be) to stand up for civil rights for all, and a president that appears like he doesn't want anything ruining his chances at a 2nd term such as forcing gays to be allowed to be open in the military saying things like "hey John, did you and your husband enjoy Cancun?" --- Heavens forbid that travesty!

[Tangerine LaBamba]

8. I know, and you're right, I'm right,

and no, I'm not sexist, but pictures of moral courage are so hard to find.

I'm so tired of all this bullshit. It goes on and on, the same thing, over and over. I wanted to believe in Obama, and now, to my horror, I am watching him weasel on his promises, his very clear promises, just as Clinton weaseled. I can't believe it. I keep thinking I'm missing something.

When Rachel showed that handwritten note that Obama had sent to the lesbian who was being forced out of the Air Force a few weeks ago, I thought, well, maybe he had an agenda, and was getting ready to do the right thing.

But, I see no indication beyond a nice handwritten note - worth a fortune on eBay someday, I suppose - that anything is going to change.

My heart is slowly breaking.

Weasels, they're all weasels........................

[Divine Discontent]

9. that's how I feel. like he's turning into a weasel - where's the bold moral proclamations?

they were done for people like him decades ago? And GLBT people were some of those very people standing up for minorities! Bayard Rustin, an African American, was MLK Jr's main organizer from the couple things I've read on him (as you possibly knew before me), and he put his life on the line for civil rights.

I guess much like Clinton did months into office, Obama's gonna do just like him and walk a fine line to get re-elected. I wanted an LBJ type action that pushed for civil rights for all in govt, military, and regular society and using HIMSELF as the example, which would rock...

I'll keep dreaming, because MLK Jr's dream is still alive, no matter what.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

10. I'm reading a wonderful book,

"Some Of It Was Fun," written by Nick Katzenbach, who worked for Robert Kennedy at Justice, and succeeded him as Attorney General.

He writes about how it was in Selma and Birmingham, and how JFK and RFK handled the forced integration of schools in the South. Katzenbach was the man who faced down Gov. George Wallace in that famous photograph in the schoolhouse doorway.

He writes wonderfully, although it's kind of dry, something only a lawyer might love, but the stories he tells - oh, the men who did the right thing back then! - they just leave me almost in tears. I was just a kid when all of this was happening, but I ended up in Selma as a volunteer because I believed.

They were men who just went and did the right thing, with political arm-twisting and threats and cajoling and promising. LBJ, in particular, was a master of the process, and he - from Texas, no less - went all out to get the Civil Rights Act of 1964 made into law, against all received wisdom at the time, that it was too risky for anyone to vote for. But LBJ barreled it through, and even though he was ultimately brought down by the Vietnam fiasco, he'll always have a part of my heart for the courage he displayed in doing the right thing because it was the right thing to do.

I am horribly disappointed by Obama. I feel like I've been had again, wined and dined, and the ditched while I went to the ladies' room, left to pick up the check and get myself home ................................

[Divine Discontent]

15. thank YOU for the commentary on JFK/RFK, and of course, LBJ

loved hearing it -
and yes -



WHY???!!!

WHY OBAMA???!!!

Why doesn't he do, or direct, those types of brave things, too! He is where he is now because of the previous braveness of those that did what you discussed.

Thanks for all you've done, and for keeping discussion of it alive. I'm from a time shortly after all that, so it was great to hear your thoughts.

Perhaps, you will spend a few weeks and write about what you've done and your thoughts on the brave wisdom of those in the 60's up against so much hatred, and then negativity from even their own party about why they shouldn't push for rights.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

17. I'm too boring to listen to, and,

besides, there are some terrific books out there about those times. The Katzenbach book I referred to is one great example - and it's really cheap at alibris.com, my favorite source for out-of-print books or books that are obscure.

You wanna read some truly great history about LBJ and how he worked, how he got to be LBJ, how he did what he did, read the Robert Caro biographies - I think there are three volumes.

There is also a Tom Wicker book, "JFK and LBJ: The Influence Of Personality Upon Politics." A great study of how those two men worked and what they did and didn't accomplish.

There's also "LBJ - A Life," by a guy named Unger - I don't remember his first name. One volume. A really, really good biography.

I like biographies, so I'm kind of biased.

It was such a time. I'm old enough now to remember watching the news on TV, in black and white (in every way), kids not much older than I was, escorted by military, just wanting to go to school.

They just wanted to go to school, the thing I complained about every day and took for granted. That was such a shock to me, when I got to college in September of 1963, I got caught up in SNCC activities, and ended up in Alabama, helping to register Negroes who wanted to vote. I look back at that time now, and I realize I terrified my parents, and was probably in all kinds of danger, but we were together, all of us, doing the right thing as we saw it, and when I went back to school, at the ripe old age of twenty, I felt like I'd actually done something. And I had.

Those photographs are so hard to believe now. We have an African-American in the White House. In my lifetime, the contiuum got longer and longer, for which I am so thankful.

Today, though, that courage is lacking, even in Obama. Remember the Robert Redford movie, "The Candidate"? I think that's closer to the truth than we might admit, and I don't know that it'll ever change.

Money talks, and power walks.....

[Divine Discontent]

32. that works! thank you! and for the book info.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

11. Well then, I guess we're all up the creek without a paddle.

Might as well just check out of politics and civic life completely then.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

12. If that's what you think,

that's what you'll do.

The smarter thing to do might be to pick your fights more carefully and structure your approaches more delicately, but that wouldn't necessarily to a message board................

[Proud Liberal Dem]

13. I'm not planning on checking out myself

It just sounds like some people here seem to have given up, which, of course, is plenty fine with me if that's what they want to do. I think I do need to get away from DU for awhile. It's getting to be a pretty dreary place to be.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

14. Bye........

I hope you enjoy wherever you go next, and I hope you find lots of joy and light wherever that is...............

[Toasterlad]

28. "now that a lot of the left seems to be rapidly deserting Obama"

I think you've got that backwards.

[jody]

6. Congress will have to repeal 10 USC 925 ART 125 of the UCMJ and that will be a rancorous debate.

§ 925. Art. 125. Sodomy

(a) Any person subject to this chapter who engages in unnatural carnal copulation with another person of the same or opposite sex or with an animal is guilty of sodomy. Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete the offense.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

16. By signing the properly-drafted Executive Order,

Obama can suspend § 925. Art. 125.

That's how President Truman integrated the military.

Executive Orders are numbered, and you might find it interesting that Executive Order Number 1 was signed by Abraham Lincoln. It is known as the Emancipation Proclamation.

Great things, Executive Orders. If you have a chance, read their history. As always, the Constitution shows us yet again what a brilliant instrument it is.................

[jody]

18. I don't believe executive orders 11478, 13087, 13152 sought to permanently overturn any federal law

like Art 125.

As Commander in Chief, Obama is obligated to investigate and prosecute anyone subject to the UCMJ for violation of that law.

Of course one can argue that a president as commander in chief is not obligated to enforce the UCMJ but we just got rid of a unitary president who was a law unto himself.

It's congress' time to act on the matter, not a president.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

20. By that kind of rigid

and doctrinaire thinking, you would be in fine company with Justice Scalia. But you'd separate from Scalia, in that he would accede to the validity of the Executive Order, since it's written right there in the Constitution, and you'd be left hanging alone out there. Even Scalia, as basic as is his thinking, would have to acknowledge the sovereignty of the clause.

Some laws - and rules - are so patently unfair on their face that they demand correction in as swift and efficient a manner. Hence, the Emancipation Proclamation. Waiting for Congress to act is sometimes simply not feasible. Our Founding Fathers knew that, and created the concept so as to protect the citizenry from a Congress very much like what we've got today.

I am not going to disagree with the wisdom of the men who wrote our Constitution. I do, though, take issue with anyone who finds fault with any of its parts simply to advance an unyielding view of the Presidency. Some things are absolute, such as the President's pardon power and the matter of the Executive Order.

You're seriously quoting three out of, what, twelve thousand? That pretty much testifies to the weakness of such a position..............

[jody]

21. Bush/Cheney appeal to your logic as supporting the unitary executive. We disagree on the issue.

Have a great day and goodbye. :hi:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

23. The Constitution provides

for Executive Order. You see it as an example of "unitary executive."

You bet we disagree. I know what I'm talking about ..............

[Toasterlad]

27. "It's congress' time to act on the matter, not a president."

Funny, I thought Obama was Commander in Chief of the military. Seems like he should be concerned about the unwarranted harrassment and discharge of highly qualified service members. Seeing as how running the military is his job, and all. Not to mention the fact that he campaigned on a promise to get rid of DADT.

But he's apparently in agreement with you that Congress should handle this. So surely he's pressuring them to do just that, seeing how this issue has a direct impact on our ability to fight the two wars in which we're currently engaged.

What's that? He's NOT pressuring Congress?

Curious.

[jody]

35. #6 and this branch is about art 125 of the UCMJ. After Lawrence v. Texas, the

United States Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces in two cases said Article 125 can still be upheld in cases where there are "factors unique to the military environment".

An interesting exchange on the topic can be found at http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/omni-pr/812430-obama-wont-require-military-allow-gays-serve.html (flyertalk)

Perhaps someone else can correct any mistakes I made in the above assertions.

[Kaleva]

19. The definition of "unnatural" has changed over time

Very few people today believe oral and/or anal sex between consenting, adult humans is perverted or unnatural. I believe one can argue that carnal copulation with an animal or minor can still be considered to be unnatural.

[jody]

22. Understand but shouldn't congress repeal Art 125 and others that are inconsistent with GL rights? nt

[Kaleva]

26. Might not have to repeal Art. 125...

if oral and anal sex between consenting adults is no longer considered to be unnatural. I don't know who has the authority to do that. President Obama?...Congress?...or some Judge?

[jody]

29. Don't know. Perhaps someone can comment on whether there have been recent court martials under

Art 125.

[Kaleva]

30. Hell, I could have been charged many times..

for violating Art. 125 (as defined) back when I was in the Navy but i never worried about it as my partner(s) were of the opposite sex.

[jody]

31. Understand and things change so I wonder how commanders currently view their job in this matter. n/t

[Toasterlad]

24. The Blatant Stupidity of This Argument Never Fails to Sicken Me

"We have a lot on our plate right now."

"We're fighting two wars."

Given these facts, wouldn't it make sense to STOP DISCHARGING PERFECTLY QUALIFIED MILITARY PERSONNEL FOR ABSOLUTELY NO SANE REASON?

What a craven, cowardly, stupid bunch of "leaders" we have.

[jody]

34. I see no way to refute your succinct conclusion re leaders.

:thumbsup:

[EFerrari]

25. How nice of the JCS to COMPLY with their CIC's decisions!

[L. Coyote]

33. A D'oh Moment. We have to comply with the law!!!