McCain was tortured by the NVA, right ?

[floridablue]

Held in the Hanoi Hilton, he was tortured and signed a statement that his and other pilots committed war crimes.

So did torture work? Or did McCain commit treason

The Gop party line was, I believe, that he signed the statements to keep others from being tortured? And turned down release because of his fathers position in the Government, the head of CINPAC.

[MichaelHarris]

1. Depends on

what day it is and which base he's trying to appeal to.

[atreides1]

2. Technically Speaking

McCain violated the Code of Conduct.

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.


Accepting medical care that other POWs were not receiving could be considered a special favor.


When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.


By telling his captors who his father was he provided them with more information then he should have.

The signing of those documents under the Code at the time does technically make his statements disloyal to the US.

But, I don't believe that he crossed the line into treason, and given the mitigating circumstances he probably did what any of us would have done if our roles were reversed.

And let's make this clear, I don't like McCain.

[Chulanowa]

8. Yeah, honestly I wouldn't hold it against him

when there's a blowtorch on your balls and water in your lungs, you're going to say whatever your brain thinks will relieve that. Maybe it'll be true, maybe it won't be, but you're going to say something. Fuck the military code of conduct on this one, the expectation that every servicemember be a square-jawed pulp comic hero is just a bit much. People break under torture, it's what torture is designed to do.

[LostinVA]

22. He refused to be released

And, breaking under torture isn't considered breaking the Code of Conduct (as per my ex-Intelligence BIL).

[floridablue]

31. That is the code I signed

And I had a serious concern about what would be done to me if I was always trying to escape. I knew my daddy should have taken that job at CINCPAC instead of raising cows and corn.

[xchrom]

3. torture works --

on mccaine.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

4. I thought he was tortured by the Steelers*.

:shrug:



*Or was that the Packers?

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. The bombing of the northern part of Vietnam was a war crime

n/t

[Thothmes]

6. Order by the Senior War Criminal

in the United States at that time, Lyndon Baines Johnson.

[JackRiddler]

12. As was the invasion and bombing of the southern part of Vietnam, also Cambodia and Laos

[Thothmes]

16. President Johnson's war in vietnam was one big war crime.

[JackRiddler]

17. Not to let Johnson off the hook, but it was also just as much...

Eisenhower's, Kennedy's, the CIA's, the Pentagon's, the MIC's, the think-tankers' (Rand Corporation among others), and Nixon's war on Vietnam (north and south), as well as on Cambodia and Laos. To say nothing of murderous actions taken during the same years in other potential Asian "dominoes," such as Indonesia. You might let Kennedy off because of the summer 1963 orders to ramp down and get out, assuming that was really intended and would have really been the result. Those orders likely provided the direct motivation for Kennedy's killers. But in practice, his term also saw a continuous escalation, increased killing and deployment of many thousands of US troops, until his assassination.

[Obamanaut]

19. Inasmuch as the first advisers were sent during the Truman

administration, I think we should let him have some of the blame as well.

[LostinVA]

23. And JFK escalated it

I don't think JFK gets anywhere near the blame he should for Vietnam.

[anonymous171]

24. Yeah, I've always wondered why the anti-war left idolized him.

He wasn't a war monger, but he definitely was not a dove either.

[LostinVA]

25. Exactly

Very strange to me.

[JackRiddler]

27. The question is whether his last orders and findings on Vietnam were serious...

We don't get to know that, because the assassination intervened.

And I reject the idea that an "anti-war left" idolized him. The whole question of JFK revolves around what you think happened on Nov. 22, 1963.

[anonymous171]

29. My own belief:

JFK was killed by the Fed, which is part of the Financial wing of the MIC.

[Thothmes]

34. He raised the troop levels from 900 in 1960 go 16,000 by

Nov 1963.

[JackRiddler]

26. Fine by me (if maybe not by Truman neo-apologist John Stewart)

The US supported and financed the colonial repossession attempt until the French were defeated, then openly overturned the Geneva Treaty and stopped the elections that would have left a united Vietnam under a strong majority for the Viet Minh and President Ho Chi Minh. Twenty years of continuous mass murder and destruction of nature followed before that same result came to pass, although the US war outlived Ho.

[Thothmes]

33. How much napalm did HST drop on Vietnam

How many corps did he have in country. How many carriers did he have stationed in the Gulf of Tonkin.? He had a couple of hundred military advisors there. Johnson turned into a major war all by himself.

[Obamanaut]

37. Are we going to play 'nitpick"? HST did not drop anything, nor did

DDE, nor did JFK, nor did LBJ. Stuff was dropped while they were CIC, but they did not drop anything. See, I can play.

No there were not many troops there. The US did however pick up about 80% of the bill for the French during the last part of their involvement.

Oh, BTW, there were a couple of presidents in office between HST and LBJ you recall. There was indeed a slow but steady buildup during those years.

I worked on some of the A1 Shyraiders and B25 bombers being modified during the early 60's, for use in SE Asia.

edited to add this:-----------

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1945.html

September 26, 1945 - The first American death in Vietnam occurs, during the unrest in Saigon, as OSS officer Lt. Col. A. Peter Dewey is killed by Viet Minh guerrillas who mistook him for a French officer. Before his death, Dewey had filed a report on the deepening crisis in Vietnam, stating his opinion that the U.S. "ought to clear out of Southeast Asia."

July 26, 1950 - United States military involvement in Vietnam begins as President Harry Truman authorizes $15 million in military aid to the French.
American military advisors will accompany the flow of U.S. tanks, planes, artillery and other supplies to Vietnam. Over the next four years, the U.S. will spend $3 Billion on the French war and by 1954 will provide 80 percent of all war supplies used by the French.
-----------

Have a nice day.

[Thothmes]

42. Goes to my point

HST, Ike, JFK maintained a military support mission in Vietnam. At JFKs death, the number of our personnel in Vietnam was about 16,000. A number that some claim that he was going to bring down. Within two year Johnson turned it into an American War. Our troops had the lead in combat against the VC and the NVA, Our bomber squadrons and carrier air groups pummeled both North Vietnam and South Vietnam, but also Cambodia and Laos. As and American war, 36,000 Americans were killed during the Johnson years, another 100,000 or so wounded. Have a nice day.

[anonymous171]

20. I blame France. nt

[JackRiddler]

28. Rightly so. Thanks for the important addition.

[Lint Head]

7. McCain was tortured to say things against his country which he did.

Torture is used to make you say things that you do not mean but is to the advantage of the torturer.
Like Dick 'Torturer' Cheeeney. :dem:

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chrisa]

10. wtf?

So, the people who tortured McCain are more honorable than he was?

What a nice thing to say on Memorial Day. I bet you're happy you're not saluting a swatztika and speaking German right now.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chrisa]

11. This thread is beyond belief.

And on Memorial Day, of all things.

If I'm getting this right, the OP is calling McCain a traitor for cracking under torture?

I don't care how much of a hero the GOP inflates him to be. The original post is a stupid and disrespectful thing to say.

[JackRiddler]

13. A memorial for the two million people the US military killed in Indochina, then.

[anonymous171]

18. Don't blame the military, blame the Capitalists who funded it. nt

[Thothmes]

35. Blame Lyndon Johnson. he was the only man in the world

that had the authority to send those people to Vietnam.

[Obamanaut]

38. Actually, there were many sent prior to LBJ and his buildup

Men, money, materiel - a lot sent before LBJ took over

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1945.html

January 20, 1953 - Dwight D. Eisenhower, former five-star Army general and Allied commander in Europe during World War II, is inaugurated as the 34th U.S. President.
During his term, Eisenhower will greatly increase U.S. military aid to the French in Vietnam to prevent a Communist victory. U.S. military advisors will continue to accompany American supplies sent to Vietnam. To justify America's financial commitment, Eisenhower will cite a 'Domino Theory' in which a Communist victory in Vietnam would result in surrounding countries falling one after another like a "falling row of dominoes." The Domino Theory will be used by a succession of Presidents and their advisors to justify ever-deepening U.S. involvement in Vietnam.

January 1955 - The first direct shipment of U.S. military aid to Saigon arrives. The U.S. also offers to train the fledgling South Vietnam Army.

October 26, 1955 - The Republic of South Vietnam is proclaimed with Diem as its first president. In America, President Eisenhower pledges his support for the new government and offers military aid.

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1961.html

October 24, 1961 - On the sixth anniversary of the Republic of South Vietnam, President Kennedy sends a letter to President Diem and pledges "the United States is determined to help Vietnam preserve its independence..."

President Kennedy then sends additional military advisors along with American helicopter units to transport and direct South Vietnamese troops in battle, thus involving Americans in combat operations. Kennedy justifies the expanding U.S. military role as a means "...to prevent a Communist takeover of Vietnam which is in accordance with a policy our government has followed since 1954." The number of military advisors sent by Kennedy will eventually surpass 16,000.

December 1961 - Viet Cong guerrillas now control much of the countryside in South Vietnam and frequently ambush South Vietnamese troops. The cost to America of maintaining South Vietnam's sagging 200,000 man army and managing the overall conflict in Vietnam rises to a million dollars per day.

[Thothmes]

41. You are correct

When Ike left the White House, he had 900 military personnel in Vietnam. When JFK died, the number had increased to 16,000. None of these men launched Rolling Thunder operations size against 4 different nations. None of them had napalm raining down on villages all over South Vietnam. They did not have 3 or 4 carriers operating in the Gulf of Tonkin, sending guys like McCain to bomb North Vietnam daily for weeks on end. This was the handy work of Lyndon Baines Johnson.

[Obamanaut]

43. I guess with the 900 you mention from Ike, and/or the 16,000 you

say came via JFK, LBJ was NOT the only one who had the authority to send people anywhere.

[UTUSN]

14. K&R #2 n/t

[LostinVA]

21. I really didn't like the nasty things said about McCain's POW days on here during the campaign

I don't like John McCain, and never have. And, I lost what slight respect I had for him when he threw his lot in with the Religious RWs in 2004. But, the man was tortured, he wasn't a traitor, and he refused to be released. Many POWs signed confessions and made confession films. Many were driven nuts by what they endured under the NVA interrogators.

I think the very act of McCain and other POWs "confessing" shows that torture doesn't work.

[CBR]

30. Excellent Post! nt

[Obamanaut]

32. I don't like him either, but not for the reasons that most people give.

I thought the way he treated his first wife when he came home was shabby indeed. For this I think he has no honor.

[burning rain]

36. Yes, the Army of Northern Virginia did terrible things to grampy.

:evilgrin:

[ThirdWorldJohn]

39. Why Would he hug his keepers? Why are so many Veitnam POWs speaking out against him?

Be sure to look at the first link and you should look at all of them. Why did he feel it necessary to hide his records? There is so much info here that it should not be ignored. The republican party is the only party for Mccain. They are too stupid to look below the surface.

http://www.usvetdsp.com/manchuan.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFhhvaIXA9A

http://www.usvetdsp.com/mcprsrel.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFM1xqqTX_g&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGh-vq0O5gw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeuDW1hQMfk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BtWzjNLGkA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlJMCUK2cmU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU4Nwok1Z5Q&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU4Nwok1Z5Q&feature=related

http://www.pensitoreview.com/2008/02/17/in-1992-pows-accused-mccain-of-collaborating-with-vietnamese/

[tabasco]

40. Just college pranks.

The NVA is a fraternity, right?