I just got a call from an Anti-Choice group about the Freedom of Choice Act.

[Ilsa]

I didn't know it had been re-introduced in Congress.

The woman asked if I was pro-life or pro-choice, and I told her I was both. I'm sure that confused her. Then she told told me that Obama would sign the bill giving women the chance to abort late term pregnancies at will. I asked her how often that occurs, and she coudln't tell me. She said women would be aborting babies every day if the act passed.

I said something like "After seven or eight months of handling misery in pregnancy they wake up and decide to abort? Oh brother." She knew she wasn't going to be able to convince me to do anything, so she politely wished me a good day and hung up.

[SPedigrees]

1. Glad you told her to shove it. nt

[sakabatou]

2. I surprised her pants didn't explode.

[HopeHoops]

3. LOL! - I've used that line - "I'm both".

That just fries what few brain cells they have.

Some lawn care company called and said they could do a free analysis of my lawn's needs. I answered "I don't have a lawn." I DO have a yard, a nice one - and it has grass and clover and dandylions and BEES everywhere because I don't poison it. I just don't consider it to be a "lawn".

A Jesus freak once asked my wife if she had a Bible. She queried, "which version do you mean?" The Jesus freak stood there, deer in the headlights, and said something like "THE Bible." She asked again, "which version?" It had apparently never occurred to this person that there could be more than ONE version (and we probably have at least 15 different versions/interpretations along with other religious texts).

Simple minds are fun to toy with.

[Mythsaje]

4. My response would probably be

"No, but I have thousands of other books."

[defendandprotect]

5. "Partial truth abortion" . . . .

Not many families face this threat to their loved one's health -- mother, sister, aunt,
niece,wife -- but when it happens, they need care not religous instruction.

I think the late time I estimated the numbers, it works out to about 4 in ever county in
America every year.

But it's the illusion created by right-wing interests that women are desperate to have
abortions even at the last moment of pregnancy that is sadly and unfortunately
easy to sell in right wing circles where women are looked at with distrust.

It's a repulsive idea --

Nature has put all her trust in women as far as children and pregnancy are concerned --
and, indeed, nature is "pro-choice" having supplied many natural ways of avoiding pregnancy,
ending pregnancies and even ending fertility permanently.

Much of these natural means/plants were destroyed by patriarchy as well as the information/
knowledge of them!

[galaxy21]

7. In fairness, partial birth abortion is a touchy subject with pro choice people as well

It's not really a case of everyone who's against it being a pro life zealot or whatever.

Most people aren't 100% either way. I know a lot of people that are staunchly pro choice for the first or second trimestor, and then they're against it after that because the fetus is too developed. Some people are pro life except for rape and incest. The people who are pro choice 100% or pro life 100% are actually quite rare, if you look at polls.

I think America is a pro choice country, but the majority do seem to be against the partial birth abortion procedure. Not great if you're a strong reproductive rights supporter, but it doesn't mean the US is Iran or anything like that. The majority generally think it should be legal in the early stages, but late term abortion is different in people's minds.

My own feelings on the subject of partial birth abortion...eh, I see both sides of it. But certainly I can't write someone off as a zealot who's obsessed with controlling women's bodies simply because they show some reluctance over it.

[defendandprotect]

10. It's a matter of insufficient understanding of it ...which is why I said "Partial truth abortion" .

And the people who should have contested the right-wing on this issue --
pretty much all Democratic males -- had little successful response.

The reason for a late term abortion has nothing to do with the "size of the fetus" . ..
it has to due with the danger the fetus represents to the women's health/life. Frequently
it is a matter of a fetus that will not survive and often represents difficulties for
delivery -- a huge head, for instance. Continuing with gestation -- or even delivery --
could destroy the woman's chances for another pregnancy/another child -- and/or represent
threat to her life.

Are you saying that the people you know who aren't 100% either way are against
a female's right to protect her own life, or here own health??

That would be rather peculiar, especially in regard to wives, sisters, nieces . . .
people they supposedly love and care about.

And, when the cases are presented, I see very few who have the stomach to FORCE
a young girl -- usually 15 or younger -- to have the child of their father or step-father.
In fact, in many still Catholic countries, the changes to restrictions on abortion have
come because of cases like that--!!

As for rape, we have the reality of rape being used as a tool of war against women and
societies -- Serbia, etal. Do we condone that? How many would agree with the Pope who
told these women to go ahead with the pregnancies?

When this is a matter of an individual's own personal conscience -- and of family
decisions -- decided with doctors -- and late term abortion cannot be done without
prior approval -- then I think any other interference is inane.

It is when people go thru something like this that they understand it --

And, as in all other right-wing issues, we also see the large role that right-wing
propaganda and lies have played in what the public thinks. As with other issues, when
given the truth, the public wakes up.

[galaxy21]

12. You've raised perfectly valid points

And I know fine well that late term abortion isn't something women are eager to get. I don't need the lecture, thanks. I am pro choice myself.

I was providing context: You've got over 50% of people that are pro choice. And even more that despite their own personal feelings, still don't want it banned or severely restricted. But you've also got 70% of people against partial birth abortion. It's not black and white. You can't say those 70% are desperate to infantize women or control them a) because many of them are women and b) because many of them are pro choice and want it legal and safe ("Wow, check out those pro life zealots....who happen to be pro choice")

My point is there are 300 million people in America. No everyone is going to agree. And you can't drive away allies who are otherwise pro choice simply beause they disagree with this one procedure.


You gave me a big lecture about reproductive rights that I really didn't need to hear. I was merely saying that partial birth abortion isn't just a republican vs democrat or right wing vs left wing issue. Especially since many on the left have issues with it as well. It's important to seriously think about this issue rather than just throwing out taglines like "they're too ignorant to know how they should feel" or "evil right wingers hate women!" Partial birth abortion is treated like a difficult moral issue because it is one.

[Ilsa]

13. I've met, on the internet, someone like you describe...

Are you saying that the people you know who aren't 100% either way are against
a female's right to protect her own life, or here own health??

She is Catholic and writes extreme pro-life colomns to the point of deifying a woman for dying because she wouldn't have an abortion, whether the fetus would survive or not. She's a very good writer, very kind, but totally illogical on abortion rights.

[ejpoeta]

6. so they want to make people think women would just go out

on a whim and decide they didn't want to carry a pregnancy after their bodies have already changed and they've gone through the worst part of it?? give me a break. not that going through child birth is a walk in the park, but generally, if one was going to have an abortion because they didn't want the baby, they usually will do that pretty soon after finding out. most of those who would have one later on most likely would have something to do with their health, i would imagine. and it would probably be very difficult for them to have to do no matter what.

prevention... focus on prevention. it's funny how the number of abortions and unwanted pregnancies seems to go up when there is less education and less focus on prevention. no one WANTS to have an abortion. it's devastating for anyone i've ever known who did it... which i admit is not many. i had a friend whose whole goal in life was to get married and have a family. she ended up having an abortion after she accidentally got pregnant and her boyfriend took off. i know it had to be the hardest thing she had ever done. not made any better by the reaction she got from her family. She didn't tell me until later after seeing me with my own daughter that had been unintended as well. I went through with it while she didn't. but then again, my boyfriend didn't make a bee line for the door either.

[Ilsa]

8. That's exactly it. They want to spread the idea that women can't be trusted

with decsions about their own bodies and children, if they decide to have them. (Interestingly, women's OB is largely taken out of her hands in the US, too, compared to other countries where more women use midwives with more healthy outcomes. But that's another subject.) Religious nuts love disempowering women.

And pregnant women want to PAY LOTS more $$$ for that more painful procedure that they wake up and decide to have on a whim.

[defendandprotect]

9. "Pro-life" to the right is simply fanatical-fetal-fantasy . . . after that they care little ...!!!

[shraby]

11. An argument that is usually missing in the

pro-choice/pro-life debate is the woman's right to medical care. If she decides not to carry the child, she should without question have the right to competent medical care in her decision just as she does with the pro-life side of the equation.
Throughout known history women have had abortions rather than carry an unwanted child. Only difference is that before Roe v. Wade the abortions were self-inflicted or back ally butchers with a high rate of death for the mother and child.
The right to quality and competent medical care is the only sane solution to the whole issue.