There is no Catholic quota for the Supreme Court, and it's sad some on DU seem to want one.

[RB TexLa]

Amazing that this even comes up, but there have been a few posts regarding how many Catholics will be on the court if our current nominee is confirmed. None of the current Catholic justices or the current nominee call The Vatican to find out how to vote. There is no reason to oppose or have concern for a judge other office holder based on this. There are of course political reasons to vote against or oppose someone of my faith for office, as individuals we are as varied as Ted Kennedy to Rick Santorum.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

1. Hating on Catholics is a favorite past time here

[Mythsaje]

3. Hating on religion in general, often times...

Though the current Pope is arguably an asshole.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

6. Oh yeah, I hate the current Pope

I just don't extend that to most Catholics.

[Mythsaje]

9. A lot of American Catholics are "cafeteria Catholics"

and, despite my feelings about religion, I don't dislike them for it.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

10. Yep, most Catholics I know are pro-gay marriage, pro-choice, etc

[Mythsaje]

11. I loathe the Church, but don't blame people for it.

My father and I were talking about Hispanics a couple of weeks ago and generally agree that they tend to be really good people overall. They're almost universally Catholic. His girlfriend (a great example of ignorance in many ways) knew ONE that she didn't like, so she dislikes them all equally. My dad loves her, but I'll never understand why.

[Thothmes]

39. and generally anti death penality

[IDFbunny]

36. Or "twice a year" Catholics. nt

[texasleo]

33. Islam seems to avoid this fate.

Odd.

[Mythsaje]

35. Maybe because the only obnoxious Islamic folks we know about

are "terra-ists" and nobody here actually considers them a valid interpretation of their faith. Judaism gets a pass too, for the most part.

[Chulanowa]

70. Not really

If you're not seeing Islam-bashing on DU, you must spend lots of time in the cooking forum.

But there IS more Christian-bashing, and the reasons for that are pretty simple... No matter what the right wing keeps trying to tell us, it's not the Muslims who are trying to convert our society into a theocratic hellhole. It's the christians.

[Sal Minella]

81. You may be receiving a sternly-worded letter from Opus Dei, you know.....

[Chulanowa]

84. I hope so!

It might help me cut back on my bath tissue costs

[Renew Deal]

26. And some of the people doing this sort of thing will be the first to complain

if their favored group is "hated on".

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

28. What does that mean?

I would love an explanation. It would be nice to see you backpedal twice today.

[Renew Deal]

29. It wasn't aimed at you.

I agree with you that bashing catholics/religion is common on DU. What I'm saying is that there are people here that will ridicule one group of people while getting upset that their favored group is ridiculed. They consider it OK to bash religion, but not race. Or they consider it acceptable to bash gays, but not religion. Or name your combination...

I'm not sure what you mean by backpedal. I haven't had a controversial day at all. :shrug:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

30. Sorry, I figured you were calling out members of a certain group

As for the rest, I saw your grave dancing thread.

[Renew Deal]

31. Oh

I noticed it was deleted. It wasn't grave dancing. I'm surprised no one else had pointed it out...or maybe they did.

[Mythsaje]

32. Oddly enough, the atheists/skeptics here annoy me the most...

The religious folks are generally decent, open-minded people. The atheist/skeptics think my wife is just as nutty as any fundie asshole. That doesn't win them any points with ME.

[Fumesucker]

60. Amusing how in complaining about a broad brush being used..

You break out a rather broad brush of your own.

Atheists/skeptics are as diverse in personalities as any other group.

[Mythsaje]

75. Show me where I said ALL...

In general, most of the theists around here are pretty damn tolerant. They don't use words like "woo" to describe people they don't agree with.

[Fumesucker]

76. Umm...

Your words verbatim:

Oddly enough, the atheists/skeptics here annoy me the most

I see no qualifications on this statement at all.

If you didn't mean *all* then you would have written "some" or "a few" or something similar which would have indicated you didn't mean all.

[DesertRat]

59. And it's the one aspect of DU that I really bothers me. n/t

[mitchum]

2. Perhaps, but how about an Opus Dei quota?

[MNDemNY]

4. Anyone who puts thier religion equal to or above the rule of law should not serve on any bench.

[kestrel91316]

16. B.I.N.G.O.

[Canuckistanian]

49. There you have it

If your religion colors your judgement, you have no business being on the bench.

[sandnsea]

5. Some on DU are disrupters

and sound more like freepers than freepers half the time.

[Mythsaje]

12. There are odd similarities, when you factor in differences in ideology.

Some people are okay with just about anything as long as they can rationalize it and it's being done by people THEY support.

[Spider Jerusalem]

13. Ideologues and extremists generally have more in common than not.

[hlthe2b]

7. I for one would love to see a social moderate Catholic on the court

standing up to the theocratic Opus Dei types like Scalia.

[rvablue]

20. Well, you're about to get what you want! n/t

[onehandle]

8. We Catholics don't lift a finger without the Pope's blessing. All kidding aside...

I expect a fundie explosion pretty soon.

They HATE Catholics.

[MineralMan]

17. Yah, except for abortion issues. Then the fundies LOVE 'em.

[UrbScotty]

18. They sure hate Catholic values

Protecting the vulnerable, social justice, peace... I could go on.

[Sal Minella]

37. May I point out that the values you list are HUMANIST values and the Catholic church

does not have any corner on them?

[UrbScotty]

69. Since when does anyone have a 'corner' on values?

:shrug:

These are values that I as a Catholic find an important part of my faith.

[Sal Minella]

80. They are fundamental values shared by humanists --

This is your post:

==============================
They sure hate Catholic values -- Protecting the vulnerable, social justice, peace... I could go on.
==============================

You make it sound like catholics invented them, imho.

[rosesaylavee]

63. Well, everyone knows they keep canons in their churches,

ready to take over the world at a moment's notice. :P

[Hippo_Tron]

86. A decade and a half ago that was true, but not anymore

Many of the prominent fundie figures are Catholic. They're trying to get religious Jews on board too but it's not working as well as they had hoped.

[Hissyspit]

14. Would be nice to have an atheist representing.

Not arguing for any quotas, but just saying.

[UnrepentantUnitarian]

19. A true free-thinker these days wouldn't stand a chance!

It does seem odd, however, that as the nation turns more and more pluralistic and personalized (nonconformist and/or secular) in religious beliefs -- as shown in several recent surveys -- there is any one faith-tradition which can dominate the highest court in the land. (Oh, and by the way, Justice Stevens is likely to be leaving before long...what then?)

[BuyingThyme]

45. Overqualified.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

15. Link please? -nt

[Adelante]

21. Wow, this is one I never expected

I can't believe anyone is objecting on religious grounds. Do we even know if she is religious?

[calico1]

22. Some people can't separate the Vatican with

every day, common people who were raised as Catholics.

To imply that every Catholic doesn't think without consulting the Pope, that we all go to Mass every day and carry our rosary beads everywhere, etc. is like saying that all Protestants are fundies.

How many people here were brought up Protestant? Would you like to be thrown in with fundy wing nuts and be considered the same as them? That's what you do when you generalize about Catholics.

Don't forget that some of the most Liberal people in Congress (Biden, Kennedy, Kucinich, etc) are Catholic.

[Adelante]

25. Not to worry, I don't forget

I just took a nap and woke up to a DU crawling with anti-Catholic screed. I think the nomination is terrific! I'm an atheist. I don't care what religion anybody is. It's a personal matter :shrug:

[Sal Minella]

41. You may consider religious matters personal, but Holy Mother Church does not.

I would agree with you if it weren't for....

...the Church's threats of excommunication against pro-choice Catholic politicians before the last election. Holy Mother Church takes public policy matters very seriously indeed, it seems, not leaving them to the whims or personal beliefs of individual Catholics.

...the refusal of Pope Benedict to accept Caroline Kennedy as "Ambassador to the Vatican" because her views on family planning do not echo precisely the Pope's.

...the Pope's stated belief that using condoms increases the spread of AIDS.

Religion may not matter to some Americans looking at the composition of the Supreme Court, but religious influence on public policy damn well matters to Holy Mother Church.

[rosesaylavee]

65. The Church does voice HIS displeasure at Kerry and Kennedy

and others but they are not excommunicated. The threat is always there but it is seldom executed.

The leaders of the Church are not to be confused with the congregations. Tho I am not Catholic now, I was raised RC and went thru 16 years of schooling. The individual Catholics are less likely to follow in lock step whatever their leadership preaches than most other Christian faiths. Most Catholics I know personally are more likely to be pro-choice and support social justice issues than not.

[bottomtheweaver]

67. Yes the US bishops always manage to get on the wrong side of things.

They found a reason to oppose JFK in 1960 and Kerry in 2004, and lots of candidates in between. Biden too I think. It's too bad but the GOP knows how to play religious authorities like a calliope.

[rosesaylavee]

72. Which is too bad because I like calliopes.

:hi:

[Sal Minella]

82. Who are the "leaders" leading, if the congregations are not following?

The "leadership preaches" and the congregations just go their merry way and invent their own unconstrained religion as they go? But the anti-leader individuals still refer to themselves as Catholic?

Do you understand why some of us are a bit confused???
Especially those of us who live lives consonant with our belief systems.

[rosesaylavee]

87. Sure, it makes little sense.

But from what I remember from being Catholic - and others are welcome to chime in here - it became habit to think for ourselves on some things. Not that that was a conscious decision because that would have been a sin - just my interpretation on looking back. For instance, it just didn't seem practical to agree with the Pope about the Pill and contraception. What about unexpected pregnancies? The Pope was a nice, well-meaning person, but he was afterall very far away and a celibate male who didn't necessarily know about day to day stuff. We liked our Bishop when we saw him once a year if that at confirmations, etc. Our priests were a mish mash of thoughtful and unthinking and my brother made sure I knew which ones to not be alone with.

We were Catholic because our family had always been Catholic (except for those renegades who were Lutheran). It was a way of life and habit. Of course, none of us are Catholic anymore so not sure how much stock you should put in my opinion. :)

[Sal Minella]

88. Very interesting -- thank you for posting this.

I took instruction from a priest when I married a Catholic, and was horrified at the things I was expected to believe.

Would be much simpler to be born into it, yes.

[rosesaylavee]

89. Converts of any religion are most intense...

Believe it all - hook line and sinker. My dad was a convert and my mom was always trying to get him to ease up a bit... esp that tithing thing made her nuts as we were stretched with 5 kids and her father living with us too.

[Mythsaje]

34. Is Kucinich really Catholic?

I thought he was all new-agey or something.

[bottomtheweaver]

66. really Catholic:

"His family was Roman Catholic, and Kucinich has said that their worship was a 'private practice that included mass' and that they attended more than a dozen different churches as they moved from place to place. . . .

"He attended St. John Cantius School, a Catholic high school in Cleveland. Kucinich has said that while growing up he studied the Scriptures and the lives of the saints, and was influenced by the Catholic Workers Movement."

http://pewforum.org/religion08/profile.php?CandidateID=14

[dflprincess]

85. Isn't he on his third marriage?

He may have been raised Catholic but, like a lot of us, has moved on. Though, I did learn some good liberal values in Catechism (feed the hungrey, house the homeless, etc) and I took those with me.

[aquart]

23. Well, I hadn't noticed, but there does seem a disproportionate representation.

Just as there is a disproportionate number of men on the Court. Which is an imbalance we seek to correct. But the other imbalance is okey dokey?

[Sal Minella]

38. Of the nine justices, four or five should be women, to be representational

of the population of the country. (We have less than half that, if Sotomayor is confirmed).

If 25% of the American people are Catholic, we should have 2.25 SCOTUS justices who are Catholic, not six (6).

But I can't mention this without being ragged on for being anti-Catholic. I'm supposed to just nod and smile when the Pope dictates to the President of the United States who shall be "acceptable" as Ambassador to Ring-Kissing ceremonies at the Vatican.

[Libertyfirst]

24. I don't care

if the new justice is green and purple dotted, with red and white hair who is a druid. All I want is a left of center justice who believes the Constitution means what it says.

[BolivarianHero]

27. Hmm...

I don't have a problem with Catholicism in and of itself, but 5 Catholics, 0 Muslims, and 0 non-theists is a load of crap to me. Ironically, many of the very few world leaders I still have respect for, such as Chavez and Correa, are Catholics.

[Toasterlad]

40. You Know What I Think Is Sad? People Who Try to Separate the Vatican from the Church.

On this very thread, there are people saying the Pope's an asshole, but catholics are alright. They treat religion like politics: I don't like the president, but I'm still a loyal American. Religion doesn't work that way...at least, the catholic religion doesn't. As a catholic, you're supposed to obey the teachings of the church...which includes whatever the Pope says. You don't get to pick and choose. If you believe otherwise, you're a hypocrite.

You also don't get to rationalize away your support for an organization that has historically and consistently perpetuated some of the most horrific acts of evil ever seen. You can deplore the abuse of little boys all you like, but every cent you contribute to the church goes to fund pedophiles...not to mention misogynist homophobes. Even if you don't contribute monetarily, just defending the church enables them to continue their vile practices.

As a former catholic who realized at a pretty early age what a sick organization it really is, I don't have a lot of respect for people who are able to make peace with the reality of the church vs what they think it should be. And I don't have a lot of trust for adults who consider themselves catholic but accept positions of power that will bring them into conflict with ideals that they claim to hold sacred. At best, they're hypocrites. At worst, religious zealots who'll weigh everything against their faith.

[BolivarianHero]

44. I'm an atheist and not affiliated with any church, but be careful making that argument...

Religion has social and cultural dimensions as well as philosophical and theological ones. Start with secular Jews (many of which are agnostics or atheists) if you still don't understand what I refer to.

[Sal Minella]

46. I'm amazed at how many "Catholics" don't seem to understand that

their faith requires them to believe that the Pope is infallible when he speaks in matters regarding the church or church doctrine.

That's a given.

When the Pope speaks ex cathedra (from the seat of authority in the church) Catholics are required to accept unquestioningly anything and everything he says.

[RB TexLa]

50. And disagreeing with it is something that is handled within the sacrament of

confession. We are also required to accept the existence of God, there have been histories of saints who have wrestled with that most basic belief of Christianity and Catholicism. Those sins are dealt with in confession, and all sins are not neatly wrapped up one five minute confession, some people go through extended times with things. But in Catholicism not accepting the infallibility of the Pope falls well below denying the Holy Spirit, to put one's sins above the power of God to forgive.

Also a Papal issue of dogma ex cathedra is vary rare, once in the 1900's and twice in the 1800's.

[Sal Minella]

52. "Rare." Okay. Except I find the concept/practice of "confession" even more problematic

than the infallibility of the pope. But to each their own.

For the Pope's sake I am glad you can believe all these things, and at least you are not knocking on my door trying to convert me, and for that I am deeply grateful. Thank you. (I will not be knocking on your door, either.)

[RB TexLa]

57. You think three times in the last 200 years isn't rare?

[Sal Minella]

58. If I told you I commit murder only rarely, would you think that's okay?

[RB TexLa]

61. Someone declaring religious dogma is equal to murder? Wow, you are on a "git em" tear tonight

Have fun.


It's really only two in the last 200 years, the assumption of Mary in 1950, and the immaculate conception which was proclaimed ex cathedra before Vatican I declared Papal infallibility itself as dogma.


Now of course the declaration of Papal Infallibility by Vatican I is theologically seen as revelation therefore previous declarations of dogma by Popes are included if they meet the requirements for Papal infallibility.

[Sal Minella]

64. Congratulations on missing the point utterly.

[RB TexLa]

71. Seemed the point was if saying someone committing murder rarely was bad that had

something to do with Papal declarations of dogma ex cathedra which are also rare. If you weren't using it to make a point about that then what did it have to do with, MPG of the federal government's auto fleet? The amount of rainfall year to date in eastern Colorado? If I utterly missed the point and you were not relating the general goodness or badness of murder and declaring religious dogma, then please tell me the point you were making.

[Toasterlad]

56. Taking Confession Implies That You Are Sorry For Your Sins, And Wish to Repent.

If you believe the Pope is a misogynistic, homophobic, pedophile-enabler, and you have no intention of changing your mind, then you are not taking the sacrament of confession in good faith, and your "sin" will not be forgiven. You'd be better off becoming a fundie, so that you can claim that now that you've accepted Jeebus as your personal savior, you're automatically forgiven for every bad thing you do.

[Sal Minella]

83. Well put.

[bettyellen]

74. well you should be it.one of our "divine mysteries" LOL! i kid, i was an atheist at age 8....

but i managed to spend another 8 years in catholic schools, so... you know.

[ProfessorGAC]

77. Don't Seem To Understand, Or Choose To Ignore It?

Are you sure that a majority of american catholics don't know the pope is infalliable on matters of faith?

Or, is it that they willfully choose to ignore that part of the canon?

Given the nature of americans, i'd guess, being raised Catholic and surrounded by lots of them, that it's more likely they just don't really pay attention to the infallibility element.

[onehandle]

51. Hey, you know who's a Catholic?

Stephen Colbert.

Your signature quotes a "hypocrite."

[Toasterlad]

53. Stephen Colbert Doesn't Make, Enforce, or Interpret Law.

He can be as much of a hypocrite as he wants, as long as he stays funny.

[onehandle]

62. You attack all Catholics in your initial tirade.

Stephen Colbert is obviously a hypocrite.

He'll be sooo sad about this.

[Toasterlad]

68. I Only Attacked Catholics Who Support the Church But Denounce the Vatican.

They are certainly hypocrites. But they are MUCH better than the catholics who support the church AND the Vatican. THOSE catholics are just evil. Personally, I hope Colbert is the former. As I made clear, I don't care if he's a hypocrite, because he doesn't make policy that affects my life.

[cagesoulman]

42. How many who want the ban are actually Catholics?

I had to deal with the fucking nuns in elementary school and I sure as hell want a limit on Catholics in the Supreme Court. In fact, I want a court of all liberal Jews.

[BuyingThyme]

43. Actually, a few of them do seem to look to the Vatican to find out how to vote.

I hope Sonia Sotomayer is not one of those.

[RB TexLa]

47. Then how do we have five current Catholic justices and still have the death

penalty?

I know it hasn't been challenged directly but if that were the case someone would have found a way to get enough of a challenge to them to do so. I mean, Rome would have called a Catholic attorney with a case and made her get it to them.

[BuyingThyme]

48. Good point.

[Sal Minella]

54. Holy Mother Church is much more interested in subjugating women than

in extending any kindness or mercy to convicted criminals. Priorities, priorities.

Killing those guys doesn't matter much because they aren't having little Catholic babies anyway.

[Bucky]

55. Not to put too fine a point on the matter, but it's not the Vatican they're looking to

They're looking to the right wing think tanks that have been giving them speaker's fees and doctrinal marching order for the past quarter century. It's not a Catholic thing--Catholic is simply a convenient code marker to anti abortion activists saying "Look, this 45 year old nominee has no paper trail in his 6 months on the federal bench, but he'll vote the right way (wink, wink) if you'll all just get behind him.

[bertman]

73. So, having five or six sitting Justices who were Southern Baptists wouldn't faze you all

a bit?

It would bother the hell out of me. Just like having five Catholic Justices bothers me and adding one more bothers me more.

This is a nation of many religions and beliefs so I find it myopic to say the least, that so many fail to see why having five or six of nine Justices who are members of one religious group is not REPRESENTATIVE of the people they are judging and, ultimately, is not in the best interests of our nation.

Perhaps if the Catholic church were known for its egalitarian ideals, its embrace of and tolerance for other religions, and its historic defense of rationality and science over mythology and dogma, I'd be more receptive to some of its members making decisions that affect the democratic institutions of our nation. But, as we all know, that has not been the case.

[Badgerman]

78. Apply the 'Separation Clause'. ZERO religious on the bench, PERIOD! how about that?

speeling

[Tommy_Carcetti]

79. But....but....don't you know the truth about Catholics?

The sole purpose of the religion is to allow for priests to abuse children. That's everything that Catholics stand for. That, and mean nuns back in the 1950s. That's what Catholicism is all about. At least that's what some people told me and I believed them.....



:sarcasm: