If homosexuality is a "choice," well, so is religion.

[Mythsaje]

So why does a religion have the ability to dominate the discussion and influence public policy to the extent allowed in the Gay Marriage issue?

I don't believe homosexuality is a choice--but religion certainly is. People can decide to accept what they're told by their predecessors (parents, grandparents, or others) or go their own way. It's most strikingly a CHOICE. Gay people get the "choice" of accepting who they are and doing what seems right for them, or being weighed down by the stigma impressed upon them by religions that should have no say in their lives.

That's fucking bullshit.

"Special Rights" are the right to tell other people what they can and can't do based on YOUR religion persuasion. Telling gays they can't marry is like the Mormons telling the rest of us we can't drink coffee or our caffeinated beverage of choice. Or Protestants telling Catholics they can't revere the Pope (setting aside why anyone WOULD revere that asshat).

"Don't Ask Don't Tell?" Can we make that apply to religion too? Hell, I'd RATHER it applied to religion.

Sorry the vote went the way it did in California. But I'm hoping that we can turn around and use the initiative processes in the various states to do ALL of us some good. If they can pull this off, what's stopping US from using it to reform political campaigns on a state-by-state basis? There are a lot of progressive things that the initiative processes can get off the ground. So maybe it's time to use their own tools against them.

[Fresh_Start]

1. Personally I think that we should ban same religion marriages

they just concentrate the loonies.

[Ian David]

3. Require that one partner in each marriage must be an Atheist. n/t

[Fresh_Start]

10. no, I think mixed religions are just fine

negotiating differences in religion can be an education by itself

[Ian David]

2. Let's ban Mormon and Catholic "Marriage." n/t

[Oeditpus Rex]

8. Through the fucked-up California initiative process

that's actually possible.



:evilgrin:

[Ian David]

13. Or we could just pick on The Amish. They have nothing to do with this, but they're an easy target.

Just to illustrate how awful the Prop8 decision was.

Let's pass a ballot initiative requiring every home to be wired for electricity-- no exceptions for The Amish.

[Mythsaje]

15. Are there any Amish IN California?

Just asking.

[Ian David]

16. Yes, there are.

They started driving from Pennsylvania in 1803, and just arrived on Monday.

But seriously, yes... There are a whole bunch of Amish in California.

[mitchum]

41. I really am laughing out loud

Well done!

[Tikki]

25. Ban Mormon and Catholic divorces....

threat to marriage and all...

Tikki

[Mythsaje]

26. How about banning ONLY those initiated by the male?

You have to leave women an out.

"Where's your equal protection NOW, jerk-face?"

[Ian David]

42. That's a better idea! n/t

[shadowknows69]

4. Religion is indisputably a choice.

A personal choice based on MYTHS. Maybe Jesus loves the little children but I wasn't born loving Jesus.

[Mythsaje]

11. Ain't never met him, though I hear he hangs out in prisons a lot.

Keep hearing about prisoners "finding Jesus." What--in their oatmeal?

[shadowknows69]

12. I think he's been locked in solitary for about 2000 years

[juno jones]

20. In solitary

Still nailed up to that fucking instrument of torture and death that they haven't transcended for 2000 years and show few signs of doing so now.

Damn it, it should be about his life and teachings, or if you want the miraculous, the resurrection itself.

WJWCT? What Jesus Would Christians Torture?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. I like the idea of using initiatives to help us with progressive causes

and I want to keep the First Amendment alive and well.

[Mythsaje]

7. Both Washington and California have them...

It's the damn "conservatives" that keep using them to fuck things up. So why can't we leverage public financed elections into place using it? For starters? How about a STATE cap on credit card fees? It's a thought.

[cbc5g]

6. How about a new PROP 666 to outlaw mormonism

[AndyA]

9. I've said the same thing many times.

Gay people do not "choose" to be gay. They are born gay. Just like they are born male or female, black, white, or otherwise, brunette, blonde, or so forth. No choice there, it's just genetic.

People do choose to be bigoted, hateful, religious zealots, though.

There is a reason there is supposed to be a separation of church and state.

Great post, I agree completely! :thumbsup:

[NashVegas]

14. Recommended

Religion is a choice that was once made for me, and when I came of age to decide for myself, I declined. I don't have too much trouble with people who choose to embrace it.

[immoderate]

17. Is being superstitious a choice?

Think about it.

--imm

[Mythsaje]

22. Maybe, maybe not. But one can certainly CHOOSE one's superstitions to some extent

unless one suffers from rampant OCD.

[immoderate]

29. I think it's no more a choice than your favorite flavor of ice cream.

I think it's possible to go through a conversion experience, but it's not done lightly. To some degree people are wired for religion, and go through prolonged indoctrination. So it requires some profound self examination or equivalent trauma for a theist to choose to be a free thinker.

I guess each case is different, but it's not a simple choice for a theist to become an atheist or vice versa.

--imm

[Mythsaje]

32. People change religions all the time...

Nearly every pagan I know was once something else. I believed when I was young, now I don't. No soul-searching really necessary. I came to the conclusion that, quite apart from the existence of God or an afterlife, I thought religion is/was bullshit. Nobody actually KNOWS anything, so their opinions on the subject are meaningless. And that goes for believers AND non-believers alike.

[immoderate]

37. People DO change religions all the time...

But that's because it IS bullshit. It doesn't work. But they don't drop it altogether -- they look for the better formula. And they keep on looking. Most of the Pagans I encounter know it's bullshit (tacitly) but they still keep doing it. Something compels them to keep on with it. That indicates (to me) that it's not a simple choice.

--imm

[NNN0LHI]

18. The potential for religion is genetic

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090412031513AAZlWe6

The potential for religion is genetic - humans have a tendency to try and explain everything. When early humans couldn't explain something rationally, they came up with the next best thing - a magic superbeing that was doing stuff. In that sense, religion is a learned behaviour.

Having said that, there may well be a genetic make up that makes some people more likely to want to believe in something. But the religion itself is still learned.

[Cleita]

19. Friends nothing is going to change until we have public funded campaigns.

The corruption rampant in all levels of our government is because those who can raise the most money from special interests will be the ones who are on the ballot, who will in turn make the appointments for other government posts. Maybe this is the initiative we should start with.

[Mythsaje]

Thank you

That's exactly what I'm talking about. It sounds like California voters will vote YES on just about any Initiative measure, so why not use it as the first step to change the system from the bottom up? The legislators definitely won't do it whether we want them to or not. They have too much to lose and it doesn't hurt THEM. Instead they'll keep offering up "reform" that's just more of the same.

[Cleita]

27. You might be interested in this:

Initiative guidelines from the CA SOS website: http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/initiative_guide.htm

If you are serious about starting a campaign reform movement, I will help you in my area. I know a group of Democrat who would be willing to stand with clipboards at the supermarkets and big box stores. The problem is that we are all elderly and need someone to be our leader. If this gets on the 2010 ballot then we can tackle other problems one by one.

[Mythsaje]

31. I'm not in California, I'm in Washington.

We've got an Initiative process here. I can't organize something like this because I generally don't have the time and my schedule is always nuts, though I'd be glad to help someone else put it together if it comes up.

[Mythsaje]

24. You might like this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5721659&mesg_id=5721659

[Cleita]

28. Very nice. I gave you a K&R

[Mythsaje]

36. Thanks... I misspelled Altar. Annoying. n/t

[progressoid]

21. Ya but it's different with religion 'cause America is based on Judeo-Christian ethics and we have a

history of religious liberty in America and the homersexials don't have any of that because their choices aren't sanctioned by Gawd even though the Lord loves the sinner he hates the sin and teh gays are sinning against Gawd so their choices go against everything that makes America great like Jesus intended so they don't get to ruin the sacredicity of marriage and stuff.

Or something like that.



Edit to add: I'll be in my home town in a few weeks and will doubtless hear such ramblings. :banghead:

[Mythsaje]

23. Probably almost word for word stupidity on parade.

And in response, "bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, who the fuck cares?, bullshit, are you crazy?, and, again, who the fuck cares?"

[MADem]

30. If homosexuality is not a choice (and I don't think it is), religion still is a choice....IMO.

:shrug:

You can almost always walk away. It's not too easy in some cultures (Islam in Afghanistan, for example) but I know people who have changed their religion like some folks change their socks.

[Touchdown]

33. Homosexuality is not a choice. religion is no matter how it's sliced.

I do get your point though. I just refuse to give into a false premise, stubborn bastard that I am.:hi:

[Mythsaje]

35. I thought that's what I said...

:hi:

[yodoobo]

34. Religion is a choice

I wasn't aware of that being at dispute.

[immoderate]

38. To participate -- yes, but to believe -- not.

Do you just choose what you will believe? Can you decide one day that black cats are bad luck, and believe it?

--imm

[yodoobo]

40. I choose what to believe.

Doesn't everyone?

As for your example. Its a good one

I grew up being taught that black cats were bad luck. My mother was quite superstituous. One day I thought about that belief and I decided it was silly.

I used to have a red Celica about 20 years ago. I loved that car. But after 6 accidents in 9 months, I decided the damn thing was bad luck and I believed it. Irrational? yea it was.

I suppose that you and I have just a different outlook on life and beliefs. Thats ok. But rest assured, I do choose my beliefs.

FWIW, I agree with your sentiment, I'm just not agreeing on the argument construction.

[cbc5g]

43. there really is no such thing as free choice

we live in a deterministic world and are governed by experience + genetics in determining how we act.

[JitterbugPerfume]

39. what I don't understand is

what if it WAS a choice? WTF would be wrong with adults making that choice? Who would it hurt? I am not gay so I don't know if it is choice in some cases or not but why should I, or anyone else care?

Who is hurt? DAMN I hate those judgmental assholes

[wuushew]

44. But if belief is indoctrinated at a young age is it truly free will?

Deep fundamental characteristics in personality are created at a young age. It would be like going to a kennel and having unrealistic expectations on finding the perfect family dog from a litter of abused pups, difficult but not impossible.

I had epiphany when I was 10 but most people are sadly not able to pierce the veil of BS. Religion should have an age requirement just like tobacco or booze.

[D23MIURG23]

45. Religion is a choice; Homosexuality is not. There is no "if...then". n/t