Wal-Mart fined 18 seconds worth of profit in employee's death.

[ColbertWatcher]

From the Los Angeles Times
Wal-Mart fined $7,000 in post-Thanksgiving stampede
The crush of eager shoppers that left a worker dead and 11 other people injured could have been prevented, OSHA finds in citing the retailer.
Associated Press
May 27, 2009

(...)

"Effective planning and crowd management could have prevented this incident and its grave consequences," said Robert Kulick, OSHA's regional administrator in New York. The retailer has 15 days to respond to the allegations.

The maximum fine allowed is $7,000, OSHA said. The agency said it issues such serious citations when "death or serious physical harm is likely to result from hazards about which the employer knew or should have known."

(...)

The company disagrees with the type of citation issued, she said.

"There is no OSHA or retail industry guidance that would have alerted us to this type of unforeseeable hazard," {Wal-Mart spokesmodel Daphne} Moore said. "We expect to resolve this matter in a constructive manner that fosters the safety and well-being of our associates."

(more at the link)

--Los Angeles Times

Disgraceful.

[wyldwolf]

1. Relatives can now sue since OSHA found Wal Mart at fault

The settlement could be staggering.

[ColbertWatcher]

5. Good. n/t

[nichomachus]

9. Which is why the fascists want a cap on lawsuit damages

$250,000 would be chump change for WalMart. They lose that much in a month in the sofa cushions on the corporate jet.

[ColbertWatcher]

22. Yup. Good point.

If corporations want unlimited profits, there should be no limit on how much they have to pay for their criminal negligence.

[Nederland]

40. Yeah

...because we all know that if Walmart gets hit with a billion dollar judgment the first thing they'll do to cover the expenses is fire a bunch of highly paid executives, not thousands of cashiers working for slave wages. :eyes:

[rcrush]

2. 18 seconds of profit for walmart. 1 years pay for the employee that died.

Probably.

[ejpoeta]

3. wow. that'll stop them. grr.

[Occulus]

10. Well, no, but think for a moment.

Now that OSHA has levied a fine against Mal-Wart, and the maximum fine at that, it opens the door for a civil suit.

And Mal-Wart has extraordinarily deep pockets.

[ejpoeta]

11. true. i just know that places like walmart only understand the pocket book.

and they hear nothing else. so i hope they pay a hefty price... enough to get them to change things.

[ColbertWatcher]

12. "i hope they pay a hefty price" You and me both.

And I'm sure lots of other people.

[Wednesdays]

4. K&R

:kick:

[Wednesdays]

6. dupe

Sorry...ignore.

[Canuckistanian]

7. That'll teach them

After all, a delirious crowd at a Wallmart Thanksgiving sale IS an "unforeseeable hazard"

[ColbertWatcher]

8. Kick. n/t

[hugo_from_TN]

13. What are they fining the idiots that trampled the person?

[galaxy21]

15. My thoughts as well

Hey walmart are to blame for this as well, and they should pay for any mistakes. But any fair assessment of the situation would have to wonder what the hell the tramplers were thinking.

[ColbertWatcher]

26. Here is a post I wrote shortly after the incident ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4569741&mesg_id=4569741

[ColbertWatcher]

17. Here is something I posted soon after the death.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4569741&mesg_id=4569741

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

14. Ummmm, What's The Reason For Outrage?

That's the maximum OSHA fine allowable.

[ColbertWatcher]

16. $7,000 for the death of an employee seems so, I don't know, insignificant.

I understand that with this fine the family can hold Wal-Mart accountable.

It kinda reminds me of the fine levied against that mining company in Utah after those miners were trapped and the rescuers died.

I just wonder in what year those numbers became the maximum fine. As far as I'm concerned fines against corporations are as criminally static as wages. It should have been more.

[dana_b]

18. "There is no OSHA or retail industry guidance that would have alerted us to this type of

unforeseeable hazard". :wow:

How about good ol' common sense?! Who needs "guidance"? Seriously - they didn't consider that hundred or thousands of people might show up for that $500 t.v. and all of them were running for it? Really? Jeezus. I hope the family sues the hell out of them.

[ColbertWatcher]

20. First off, the person who said that is only a "spokesperson" and not a lawyer ...

... so, Wal-Mart can say she "misspoke".

Regardless, that will be how the lawyers will interpret OSHA regulations no matter what OSHA regulations actually say.

And I too hope the family sues the hell out of them.

[ColbertWatcher]

24. Oh, and another thing about that quote ...

... What Wal-Mart did that day was out of the ordinary; it was something they don't normally do everyday.

How is OSHA supposed to regulate corporations when they don't even stick to what they do on a day-to-day basis?

I fear Wal-Mart may try to blame the mall owners.

[pnutbutr]

19. disgraceful that walmart

is being held liable at all. The people broke the doors off when rushing in and there were no OSHA violations. It was a load of jackasses wanting to save a couple bucks on a bunch of shit products.

[ColbertWatcher]

21. Here's a post I made soon after it happened ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4569741&mesg_id=4569741

[pnutbutr]

23. or people

could take responsibility and act like civilized adults. I guess that's too much to ask for though.

[ColbertWatcher]

25. Yes. Wal-Mart executives should act like civilized adults and accept responsibility ...

... for their criminal negligence.

You must be a speed reader to have gone through all those links in 6 minutes.

[pnutbutr]

27. no need to

"Other workers were trampled as they tried to rescue the man, and customers stepped over him and became irate when officials said the store was closing because of the death, police and witnesses said."

Tells you the state of mind of the assholes in the crowd and their total disregard for anything related to common decency.

[ColbertWatcher]

28. Do you mean that there is no need for you to read the first link?

Or any of the links?

[pnutbutr]

29. I skimmed some of them

Didn't change my mind. Even if I read them in their entirety it wouldn't change my mind. Walmart is being targeted here because of the lack of ability to prosecute any individuals for the death. Someone has to be responsible and since you can't prosecute the entire crowd of jackasses who were acting like crazed lunatics, the focus turned toward walmart.

[ColbertWatcher]

30. You skimmed some and it didn't change your mind.

Way to participate on a message board.

[pnutbutr]

32. Oh I'm sorry, is this better

OMG those links made sooooo much sense. You have shown me the light. Fuck Walmart for making that innocent crowd of people trample one of it's employees and then continue to trample others as they tried to help then get pissed when Walmart decided to close the store due to the dead employee laying at the front entrance.

[Ignis]

31. The almighty dollar >>> individual rights/liberties?

We've heard your song before. The tune never changes. :eyes:

[pnutbutr]

33. hahaha

I've had incorrect assumptions thrown at me before based on someone not reading or fully comprehending what I have written. Another one here doesn't mean anything.

[Ignis]

34. Oh, I understand your "personal responsibility" codewords.

Juuuuuuuuuuuuust fine. :hi:

[pnutbutr]

35. it's funny

when something as simple as suggesting someone take responsibility for their actions instead of pointing fingers at someone else is seen as a bad thing.

[Zodiak]

37. Actually, you are suggesting that a corporation is not held responsible for its actions

Which relies on the idea that they could have never foreseen the crowd acting this way and that the fault lies 100% with some unnamed indivduals in the crowd. This, of course flies in the face of the multiple incidents in recent years with the exact same situation leading to chaos.

Christmas shoppers act like nutbags....this is WELL-KNOWN. Case in point the woman who held her piss until she died to get a Wii. Or mothers getting in a fistfight over a goddamned Tickle Me Elmo doll.

Walmart built that crowd....Walmart egged that crowd into outlandish expectation...Walmart expected to profit handsomely from that crowd. Something went wrong. They were negligent.

The "crowd" loses individual identity once it becomes a mob scene. Walmart made sure it became a mob scene. You're damned right they are responsible.

[pnutbutr]

39. and you are enforcing the idea

that people don't need to take any responsibility for their actions because there is always someone better to blame it on.

[Zodiak]

41. I am asking for the law to be enforced from the primary responsible entity.

You want to go after the crowd...then identify them indivdiually and charge them appropriately. I have no problem with that....some were responsible. Some.

But to imply it is ALL the crowd's fault and Wal-Mart bears no responsibility is your position. I would say you are far more advocating the "no responsibility" meme than I am. I was never asked whether individuals should be charged. Now you have your answer, and it is clear you barked up the wrong tree.

That happens when you look before you leap.

Wal-Mart is culpable for the numerous reason I have given, none of which you bothered to counter in your zeal to paint me with a false accusation.

[pnutbutr]

42. that's why they went after walmart

because no individuals could be identified to prosecute. The police tried to do that initially and when they determined it would be impossible to pick out individual responsible parties everyone turned to walmart.

And I have given reasons why I believe it was the fault of the crowd and not walmart. We disagree. Cool.

[Zodiak]

43. Walmart should have been the first choice

Lack of foresight is a form of negligence.

In the face of all of the prior events like this, it is willful negligence.

You ignore Wal-Mart's responsibility entirely. Not a very balanced view...and certainly not one that is interesting in punishing ALL of those culpable.

and that is why we disagree.

[ColbertWatcher]

44. Not only that but ...

... consider the man who died.

He was new, not trained for the job he was put in and according to the photos and eyewitness accounts he was working as the only "security" person at the door.

None of which was the "fault" of the crowd.

[Zodiak]

45. Exactly...Walmart's negligence is extensive in this case. n/t

[Ignis]

47. Nice way to move the goalposts!

Please break down for us precisely how to divide the responsibility here.

If someone is crushed to death in a crowd, is it 100% their responsibility and 0% of the store that set up the sale parameters/location?
Or is it 50% and 50%? Or perhaps 99% and 1%?

Be sure not to mention John Galt in your response. That might, you know, tip your hand a teensy little bit! :hi:

[Zodiak]

36. Baited crowds expecting something act like assholes...what a shocker!

This is a well-known fact that extends far back in history. This is why when we commit some great sin or some great calamity comes our way, our officials tell us nothing so they don't induce a panic. This is also why we have fire codes, because when a fire occurs, people act like lunatics in an every man for himself situation.

Humans are hominids....apes, and we act like apes in large groups. It is not a pretty sight.

This crowd was one of those groups.

Wal-Mart made this crowd.....they encouraged this crowd (they wanted to profit off of it), and they should have expected this behavior.

They should be the ones culpable.

So point to the crowd as responsible all your want, but pointing to that ignores the fact that a responsible retail entity would never allow a crowd like that to form in the first place. They do millions of dollars in focus group research to learn what color to make their sale signs, but are completely unaware of the dynamic of large crowds of humans? Even though examples of it have occurred in recent news before this particular incident? Bullshit....I reject their ignorance claim.

[ColbertWatcher]

38. Thank you.

Good point about how corporations spend their money.

[booley]

46. Why is there a MAXIMUM fine allowed?

When we have companies like Wal mart that make billions a day as compared to small businesses that barely make it, why is there a dollar amount to the maximum fine?

Wouldn't' a percentage of total profits be better?

Otherwise it seems to say that if you're a big enough company you can get away with anything.

[ColbertWatcher]

49. "Wouldn't a percentage of total profits be better?" That would be interesting. n/t

[Mnemosyne]

48. How much did they receive from the dead peasant insurance they carried on him? n/t