"Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape' "....

[BlooInBloo]

Oh boy....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5395830/Abu-Ghraib-abuse-photos-show-rape.html

"At least one picture shows an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner while another is said to show a male translator raping a male detainee.

Further photographs are said to depict sexual assaults on prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube.

Another apparently shows a female prisoner having her clothing forcibly removed to expose her breasts.

Detail of the content emerged from Major General Antonio Taguba, the former army officer who conducted an inquiry into the Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq.

Allegations of rape and abuse were included in his 2004 report but the fact there were photographs was never revealed. He has now confirmed their existence in an interview with the Daily Telegraph.

The graphic nature of some of the images may explain the US President’s attempts to block the release of an estimated 2,000 photographs from prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan despite an earlier promise to allow them to be published.

Maj Gen Taguba, who retired in January 2007, said he supported the President’s decision, adding: “These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency. "

[thewiseguy]

1. A male translator raping a male detainee?

:wtf:

[rcrush]

2. How about child rape?

Thats some WTF

[thecrow]

15. .............don't ask...................... don't tell........................

[chill_wind]

33. The Taguba report itself sanitizes it-- calls it "having sex."

In referencing same with a female detainee.

"A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee."

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/tagubarpt.html

[noamnety]

54. Gotta love how response #1

is a male being outraged that the men were raped.

[ColbertWatcher]

3. What!? How dare the British press accuse Americans of mixing rape with our torture!

I demand to see these alleged photos IMMEDIATELY!

[armyowalgreens]

4. Oh Jesus Christ...

This is a moment when the American people need to step back and reflect on what America stands for and really take a good look at what we've become.

This is just disgraceful on levels I have never seen before. Absolutely horrifying.

[gratuitous]

5. We need Rush to explain this!

I mean, gee whiz, there must be a perfectly reasonable explanation for tearing a woman's clothes off and forcibly penetrating men and women. Why haven't the librul media had some Bush administration officials on to explain these things? It's just bias, that's what it is!

Now, what was all that ersatz "outrage" over people saying they were ashamed of the United States?

[BlooInBloo]

7. They do that at frats too, I hear.

[Canuckistanian]

16. I forget. Did they rape people at Frat parties?

Or did they use wire or truncheons on pledges?

I may have to wait and listen to Rush on this.

[redqueen]

59. Same thing I was wondering...

what the hell kind of rightwing nightmare frat did that cowardly liar belong to?

[L. Coyote]

20. Obama's cover-up!

This is going to bite Mr. Transparency in the arse!

[Frustratedlady]

6. Every time these photos come up, this thought comes to mind...

Were these photos taken for the perusal and enjoyment of someone special? If they were trying to get by with torture, why did they photograph it, unless someone was getting their jollies from looking at them.

I don't know why that thought haunts me, but it does...and, I think I know who would have enjoyed them.

[Arctic Dave]

8. Blackmail. All the things listed are taboo in ME culture.

Take photos, then tell them you will plaster them all over the persons neighborhood if they don't do as you say.

[inna]

12. what comes to my mind every time these photos come up....

.... is how many horrendous episodes of abuse/torture remained undocumented/unphotographed.

it is entirely reasonable to suggest that we're only seeing a tip of an iceberg here.

[Fresh_Start]

18. they took the photos as souvenirs

the Lynndie photos all had them with big smiles just pleased as punch with themselves and what they were doing....
and the first photos were uncovered because someone forwarded them to their buddies one of which was rightfully disgusted by what they depicted.

War unleashes the monster in people. The monster lives in all of us, but under normal conditions we control it.

[Captain Hilts]

9. The sources here are very dodgy. nt

[Oregone]

10. How so?

[lala_rawraw]

39. what do you mean how so?

http://www.atlargely.com/atlargely/2009/05/photos-obama-wont-release-include-images-of-rape.html

[chill_wind]

11. "Detail of the content emerged from Major General Antonio Taguba."

The story says he confirmed the existence of the photos.

[inna]

14. what about Taguba? i've no idea who is. what's "dodgy" about him/it/the article? nt

[chill_wind]

22. They are citing direct quotes from Taguba. Doesn't seem dodgy to me.

"Maj Gen Taguba, who retired in January 2007, said he supported the President’s decision, adding: “These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency.

“I am not sure what purpose their release would serve other than a legal one and the consequence would be to imperil our troops, the only protectors of our foreign policy, when we most need them, and British troops who are trying to build security in Afghanistan.

“The mere description of these pictures is horrendous enough, take my word for it.”

[ArbustoBuster]

43. In 2004 he was detailed by the Army to report on the abuses at Abu Ghraib.

Later, speaking before Congress, "Taguba said that he did 'believe there was collaboration at the lower levels between interrogators and guards' that led to behavior outside the bounds of international laws and the Geneva Convention."

Reference: http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/army/052704_taguba.htm

[Justitia]

17. Agree. Folks, this is the 'Telegraph' we are talking about here. Let's hear it from someone else.

No comment as to the content of the article.
I just wouldn't trust the Torygraph on anything.

[DeltaLitProf]

51. This is called witness against interest

The agenda of the Torygraph, as it's called, would actually be damaged by the revelation of these pictures, not aided. When you hear something like this from a Right-wing source, it should actually be MORE compelling than if it came from the Guardian.

[Captain Hilts]

56. Very true. But I don't take one paper or one guy's comments on anything. nt

[lala_rawraw]

32. okay, then let the photos speak for themselves

at least three
http://www.atlargely.com/atlargely/2009/05/photos-obama-wont-release-include-images-of-rape.html

[ConsAreLiars]

41. That mindset is a good reason for you and your faith-based co-believers to insist

that the photos be released. After all the real images, you say, will show nothing like what is being described. Or is life in the land of perpetual denial to comfy to take such a chance at experiencing a dose of reality and discovering that America became Corporate AmeriKKKa many decades ago?

[spanone]

13. cue lee greenwood...'and i''m proud to be an american, where at least......'

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[opihimoimoi]

19. Now we know why its too early to release those photos....and...its time for a Special Prosecutor

[boppers]

21. What's in the photos was quietly released quite some time ago.

Even having a copy of some of these photos is a crime in several jurisdictions in the US. (Possession of child pornography)

Yet another reason to selectively publish, or not publish at all.

edit:typo

[chill_wind]

23. If memory serves, Sy Hersh wrote of their existence a long time ago. n/t

[Oilwellian]

25. No, they have not been released

Please, show me where I can see all 2000 photos. Oh, and the video showing a young Iraqi boy being sodomized by an Iraqi interpreter while an American soldier videos the entire thing. I haven't heard the scream Sy Hersh spoke of, but it's in my head nonetheless.

[boppers]

28. "Please, show me where I can see all 2000 photos"

I'll quote myself: "What's in the photos" is what was officially (partially) released. Text descriptions of all of the images were given to the ACLU, as part of their ongoing litigation.

If you really want to see actual rape photos, pictures and video of child molestation, pictures and video of torture and murder, and other kinds of gore images/videos, such content is readily available on the internet. It's also a crime to look at some of it (and thus, download illegal porn onto your computer).

I don't know why you would want to subject yourself to this, but it's out there.

If, in specific, you want to see the *exact* images/audio/video in question, or the text descriptions, that's a bit harder to come by, as it has to hop around in fragments, on "darknets", and is often of questionable provenance, to hide/obscure those who have released it.

Unless you really want to go down this road, I suggest you stop now, as you are quickly descending from "curious onlooker" to "lifetime registered sex offender", and "federal criminal".

I am not joking.

[Oilwellian]

30. So, I take it you've seen them?

Interesting.

I'm also curious about something...we know Congress saw these videos and photos. Are they registered offenders as well?

[boppers]

35. Questionable Provenance.

Suffice to say that I've seen many images/videos that *claimed* to be those in question. Some are obviously fakes (wrong uniforms, bad exif data), others, not so much.

It's really not something your average person wants to experience, let alone share with others.

[boppers]

38. Congress was exposed to a representative sample, IIRC

They did not personally keep the images/video/sound, as they did not download them to hard drives, nor were they able to share them with others.

[lala_rawraw]

34. the children were not released

but some of the rape photos were, to Salon, CBS and BBC. they show rape with foreign objects, rape and humiliation of a woman prisoner, and forced sex between inmates. i know, i have seen them. i have a bunch of them in a file from earlier when i had considered doing a story. they are in the public sphere.

[boppers]

36. What was the reasoning applied in your situation for not publishing?

Victim privacy?
Geneva conventions?
Public outrage?

[lala_rawraw]

47. no

the victims could be concealed. the geneva conventions would not in fact be violated. public outrage is not a factor because of the right and need to know. it was two factors. my absolute inability to cope with having to work on this story. i had never seen anything like this and i was unable to deal with it. the other factor is legal. distributing certain materials can be illegal, not because they are classified, but because of the nature of the crime. in any case, without a story, no pictures and i could not do it. i tried, i really did, but i was not emotionally capable of handling it. sorry:(

[Oilwellian]

24. Conyers asked Yoo, while under oath...

"It was reported in a public debate, that you were asked if a suspects child could be tortured in gruesome fashion and you responded that I think it depends on why the president thinks he needs to do that. Is that accurate?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf9rn8w7D14

And for those who doubt the validity of these claims, the torture and rape of women and children, you haven't read the Taguba Report. May I suggest you Google it and get busy reading. Then ask yourself why it didn't receive any attention from the media and why water boarding is the only thing they're reporting.

[boppers]

29. I know this one.

Ask yourself why the German media reported on "relocation" of Jews. Why the Israeli media reports on the "defense" of their country. Why the Chinese media reports on "helping" the families with Falun Gong members.

The underlying truth is so bizarre, shocking, and horrific, as to be unprintable, unbelievable.

It takes years (sometimes decades) before people can actually accept such things as having actually happened.

[dorkulon]

42. Exactly. Wateboarding isn't much next to rape.

And rape has been in the Taguba report for years now. And yet, not even the MSNBC crew is willing to go there.

[boppers]

48. Forcible, compulsory, anal rape.

Too shocking to be a headline.

[Stephanie]

26. We need to know the live-stream video capabilities in Cheney's bunker

And then we need him to produce the tapes. I think he is one sick motherfucker and I think he watched it all.

[EFerrari]

37. Just about every detainee who has been interviewed

has reported video cameras all over the place.

[chill_wind]

27. Sy Hersh talking to the ACLU 7-14-04. See also the Taguba Report

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article6492.htm

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/tagubarpt.html

[inna]

50. thank you so much for the great link(s)!! :) nt

[chill_wind]

57. You are welcome inna. Also here is the legal rundown of the litigation involved

in the ACLU's FOIA case beginning back in 2005.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3895514&mesg_id=3896190

Documents Relating to Abuse Photographs
http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/legaldocuments/index.html

[lala_rawraw]

31. i think these are some of the said photos

http://www.atlargely.com/atlargely/2009/05/photos-obama-wont-release-include-images-of-rape.html

[dorkulon]

40. Good lord.

Can't wait to hear the "bad apples" defense revived.

[lala_rawraw]

44. see, when they use that argument

they want to make the public believe that they never sanctioned these specific acts. but the problem is, when you say that everything but failed organs is allowed, this is what you will get and this is what we got. Conrad's words echo "the horror"

[dorkulon]

52. It's been very troublig to me that the focus is entirely on waterboarding.

We've known about forcible sodomy for some time now. But even the lefty talkers keep harping on waterboarding. I'd like for once to see the right defend forcible anal penetration.

[OneGrassRoot]

61. And, from what I've read, all of the "enhanced interrogation techniques"...

were systemic, used in multiple facilities. Gen. Karpinski confirmed this.

They promoted having detainees unclothed and being sexually humiliated. Even if they didn't come right out and say to use "sexual abuse" of all forms, they sure as shit knew that would be part of the can of worms their "techniques" opened up.

They knew it; they condoned it; they may have quietly ordered that specific form of torture. I believe the latter.

[boppers]

45. Would it damage your career to release all that you have to something like wikileaks?

Yeah, I remember encountering these, and I totally understand how hard it is to see.

Do you know how to use proxy servers to shield your identity, and submit photos through countries that do not have law enforcement agreements with the US?

[lala_rawraw]

49. i never

cared about my career and i don't have anything that is not in the public sphere. these have been published by people with more strength and courage than me. and if i did have them, i would have published them with my name. but i saw them, which is not the same thing as having them. i was unable to do the story and so there were no pictures given to me. i quite literally never made it far out of the building before i was vomiting on myself, the street and anything near me. i barely made it to my hotel. and i spent days crying non-stop. i was not ready for this. as i have said, others had far more strength and courage than i did back then. it is sad and i wish it were different. but i just could not handle it.

[redqueen]

60. "There are more. Much more and they are worse.

These were the least graphic I had the stomach to post."

Which members of congress have already seen these pictures? We need to start hitting them hard. They know that we know they've seen these pictures.

[kenny blankenship]

46. I believe that's known as "surging"

[SpiralHawk]

53. "Every indecency..." There you have Republicon Family Values in a nutshell

What a pack of brutal, lying Pharisees the Republicon Homelanders are...

[malaise]

55. Someone needs to ask the Dick if he believes

raping detainees won hearts and minds?

[chill_wind]

58. The perfect, simple question. Make the question a full page ad in the NYT

Run it every week until he answers it. Associate his (and Rumsfeld's, Rice's and GW Bush's) name irrevocably and permanently with the text imagery.

[OneGrassRoot]

62. more specifically: "raping adult male, female and underage detainees" n/t

[BlooInBloo]

63. Well he certainly liberated them...

From any belief they might have had in the goodness of Americans.

[Mike 03]

64. This is what I was afraid of. How can we NOT prosecute these crimes? I don't understand. NT

[chill_wind]

65. If we do not ultimately come clean and prosecute for war crime, I fear the dynamic

we will inevitably create: our children and grandchildren will one day pay for the sins of the few, the cabal we refused to punish, and by extension, protected.

The acts were vomitous vile. The lack of contrition and visible restitution for those acts will remain the most obscene, unforgivable act of all. The largest recruitment poster for future radicalization of all.

How can our present government not understand that? What gives them the right to disregard possible outcomes of that on our descendants' futures?