Help me people! Someone I love is full of shit concerning black history in America....

[Rowdyboy]

I was informed tonight that only 20% of black Americans are descended from slaves-the other 80% all are descended from voluntary immigrants. This is patently absurd, obviously, and I tried to be nice and not call them ignorant. They've been fed this bullshit by local racists and believe it. Its simply an attempt to downplay the importance of slavery and the hell that black Americans suffered.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a site that would help me educate them? They're good hearted kids but they're vulnerable to mis-education. Can anyone suggest a site that might give me the correct numbers on black Americans descended from slaves?

[BlooInBloo]

1. They don't want to be educated. They want to be bigots.

[Rowdyboy]

2. No they don't....I know these kids.....They're Obama supporters

who live in the rural south surrounded by ignorance. I'm just asking for suggestions to help them see the truth. Apparently you have nothing to offer.

[BlooInBloo]

3. Sorry - by M.O. is to wait for them to die. I see no benefit in wasting time with them.

EDIT: If you do, more power to you - especially if it works.

[supernova]

4. Here's a map that might help

showing the origins of American slaves.

http://wysinger.homestead.com/mapofafricadiaspora.html

[Rowdyboy]

5. Thanks....I doubt the website I'm looking for even exists....

I mean its pretty damned obvious that a HUGE proportion of American blacks are descended from victims of the slave trade but I'm having a hard time proving it.

[kentuck]

6. Bookmarked!

Excellent link!

Thank you.

[RoyGBiv]

7. This is a difficult question ...

I don't know of a specific site that gets into the nitty gritty of this in a way that would be informative to those who already have this mindset you mention. The conventional number is that as of the 2000 census 90% of non-Hispanic blacks living in the United States today are characterized as African-Americans and descended from slaves. The other 10% are mostly more recent Afro-Caribbean and African immigrants directly or the descendants of such. (OnEdit: The latter number is growing very fast, so it will be interesting to see what the 2010 census brings.) The number of blacks that came to the United States prior to the 20th century of their own volition is so small as to be statistically insignificant, which means that, by definition, their descendants, even those who were living as free people in non-slave states prior to emancipation, were descendants of slaves.

Studies of this variety are based on census records and statistical modeling, which is the kind of thing that those who don't understand it will rip to shreds in a flood of inane rhetoric, which simply means that whatever you give them, those who've planted this idea in their heads will offer something to counter it. That something will most likely be based on some idiotic conspiracy theory, but then that's where this idea originates anyway.

One of the problems is that proving ancestry to a particular individual who was enslaved can prove more difficult than conventional wisdom might indicate. Written records are the problem along with the massive scattering of families that took place both during slavery itself and in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War, extending into the 20th century. In short, keeping track of who is related to whom is difficult prior to, oh, about 1880.

Now, we know, from what I said above, that blacks born after 1865 were by and large descendants of slaves due to the previously mention statistical modeling. Almost every black person in the country prior to that was a slave, and ones who were not tended to be well known and more faithfully documented in records that survive. After this, we have the beginnings of immigration that did involve blacks moving here voluntarily, and we have records on that. So, we can "prove" those who weren't descendants of slaves more easily than we can prove those who are, which sounds weird, I know, but there you have it. The 90% are descendants by a process of elimination.

FWIW, this may sound like nitpicking, but it's a genuine problem. This questions arises every time reparations questions are raised, and it has been a significant issue in the Five Tribes adhering to their post-war treaties with the Federal government that involved absorbing former slaves into the tribal citizenry. It came up in court just a few years ago, in fact, and the problem, as always, was a lack of records that provide "proof." This lack of documented proof, then, becomes the basis of this idiotic idea expressed by these kids.

Anyway ... the raw data of the 2000 census showing this is here:

http://mumford1.dyndns.org/cen2000/BlackWhite/BlackDiversityReport/black-diversity03.htm

Good luck.

[Rowdyboy]

8. Thanks...you've given me a really good idea on how to approach an answer....

These kids trust me but I need some way to back up my opinions. I'd love to find Immigrations totals on black immigrants from 1865-2009-bet its well under 1 million.

[RoyGBiv]

16. I'm almost certain it is ...

I've browsed a lot of census data from the late 19th century, and I don't even recall it being something I noticed enough to notice how small it was, which probably means it was incredibly small.

One would think someone has done this type of study at some point, but I have no idea who it might be. I have an e-mail out to my friend who is an African American history professor, so maybe they can come up with something. If so, I'll let you know.

Just from random thinking about it, I'd imagine one would have to go by the census records and estimates year by year, taking note of death and birth rates and then comparing it to total population of the desired sub-set to get something close to an accurate view.

The modeling I've seen done starts with the slave population as of 1860, extrapolates that out to 1865/6, does some hocus pocus with the numbers from 1870, and then models everything based on birth/death rates ... the point being that, again, pretty much all blacks in the U.S. are descended in some way from slaves.

[Rowdyboy]

20. I just need to express to them what you just expressed to me....

The question is almost stupid. Obviously, 95% of Blacks in America prior to 1865 were here involuntarily and their descendants make up at least 90+% of todays Black America. The number of black immigrants in the last century would obviously be miniscule compared to native born.

I really should have done a better job of handling that situation. It took me by surprise-the basic premise was nonsense.

[jberryhill]

9. But when you say "Afro-Caribbean"

It's not as if Africans wound up in Jamaica as a consequence of some extended holiday, you know.

[RoyGBiv]

12. Well, that's true ...

I admit I was coming at this from the angle of the reparations debates and tribal citizenship, which is something I've been involved in at various times. In that context, "descendant of slaves" has the more limited meaning of "descendants of those enslaved by individuals living in the United States."

[XemaSab]

11. I'd be curious about what era these voluntary immigrants came over in

If someone is 3/4 descended from American slaves, and 1/4 descended from Caribbean slaves, I'd call them African-American. :shrug:

[RoyGBiv]

14. As noted above ...

I was addressing this not from the angle of "slaves" in general but "those enslaved directly by US residents."

So, to the larger question, that bit creates yet another skewed perspective.

And, if we want to go even further with this, even African immigrants are likely to be the descendants of slaves for two reasons: 1) many African nations practiced their own form of slavery, and 2) there was emigration from the United States of former slaves to these nations, some of whose descendants have immigrated to the U.S.

As for the era, you're living in it. Voluntary immigration of non-Hispanic blacks to the U.S. has only achieved significance in the last 20-30 years.

[Rowdyboy]

15. I majored in American history....there is no such era

[ColbertWatcher]

10. The best way to counter ignorance like that is to insist they prove their assertions.

I have never heard this statistic before, make this person provide proof and be skeptical about everything they say.

[Nevernose]

13. Your friends don't have "bad" information, just mixed up.

I've got 20 bucks that say your friends, or the people talking to your friends, just have mixed up information.

A lot of people like to lay the blame for all of slavery on America when, in fact, most of it happened in other countries, by other countries, before there even WAS an America. The fact is that 80-90% of all African slaves went to Mexico, central America, or South America. Proportionally very few slaves went to the United States. Those numbers have been determined by very good men and women working to understand the history of slavery. Those numbers, however, are often used by racists to justify American slavery and/or current bigotry, and twisted as 80-90% of American blacks aren't descended from slaves. It's patently untrue, but I believe that's where the seed of the lie lay.

[FrenchieCat]

17. The Atlantic Slave Trade route shows where Africans went.....

Most went through Brazil or the West Indies/Carribean Islands and then some on to the United States.

Not so much Mexico....

The Atlantic Slave Trade essentially worked like a triangle between Africa, Europe, and the Americas. If you look at the map of the Atlantic slave trade, you will see how the route worked. Trade goods, such as guns and textiles were sent out of Europe and traded in Africa for slaves. The slaves were crammed into ships that crossed the Atlantic in order to provide labor for large plantations in North and South America, which were growing cotton, sugar cane, and tobacco. These regions of North and South America were European colonies for much of the Atlantic Slave trade and served to provide raw materials to Europe for manufacturing.

On the map below, you can see that slaves were sent from Africa not only to North America, but also to the islands of the Caribbean and the east coast of South America. Actually, the smallest number of slaves was exported to North America, as compared to the Caribbean and South America. About ½ million slaves (out of 15 million total) were sent to the southern part of the United States. Approximately half of the total slaves sent to the Americas went to the Caribbean, and about a third of them went to Brazil. Indeed, as a legacy of the slave trade, Brazil has the largest population of people of African decent outside of Africa. However, the population of slaves in the United States grew at a higher rate than it did in these other regions. Consequently, the African-American population in the United States today is second only to Brazil in the New World.


http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/students/curriculum/m7b/activity1.php

[Rowdyboy]

18. I expect you're probably right....they couldn't provide a source-its just something

they heard on the radio. These kids aren't racists-they're liberally oriented and open to new ideas-maybe too open.

I think they mostly need a history lesson and thats likely the best way to approach this.

[enlightenment]

19. An interesting article that might led you in the direction of more

information is here: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/genetics/2006-02-01-dna-african-americans_x.htm

Another avenue might be to pose the question on the forum here: http://www.afrigeneas.com/
and see if someone can point you to the details.

Good luck!

[Rowdyboy]

22. I barely scanned your link and it took 10 minutes....absolutely fascinating...Thank you....

I've always found ancestry and genealogy interesting and this piece is icing on the cake.

[enlightenment]

28. It's a useful tool for historians (I teach college history)

as I'm sure you know. Hope it helps you find the answer to your question!

[omega minimo]

21. wtf does it matter? does it make them feel better about -- what?

:wow:

[Rowdyboy]

23. I don't want to make them feel better....I want to correct them.....

I simply need to explain the basics of American history because it apparently didn't come up during their educations back in the 1990's.

[omega minimo]

24. understood but how does the percentage matter in any significant way?

I've never heard of this. Is it just an excuse to justify........ what? :shrug:

I appreciate your effort but THAT's what they (or I) need educating on.

Even if the % of AA descended from slaves is this or that, how do they explain the "coincidence" of socioeceonomic disparity in the AA population. Or the lack of CIVIL RIGHTS for African Americans.

I don't see what the relevance of the % is.

edit:

sorry I guess you said in the OP:

"Its simply an attempt to downplay the importance of slavery and the hell that black Americans suffered."

BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY EFFIN SENSE!! Can you help your friend see that?!!

[Rowdyboy]

25. This thread has helped me to understand how to answer them...the percentages are unimportant....

I didn't understand that at first. I'm a student of history and they are both open-minded-I should be able to make them understand even without citing a specific source for backup.

But-as usual-just reading responses on DU has given me insight on several different approaches to take with them. Thats one reason I love this site so much-I can always get decent advice on everything from relationships to running shoes....

[omega minimo]

26. yeah you might put on those running shoes and get away from those damn ignorant raciists.

:thumbsup:

[proteus_lives]

27. An easy way to do it.....

Would be to tell them to reverse those numbers. Hell, it might be more like 90%-10%.

[Rowdyboy]

29. Looking at it logically, it couldn't be otherwise

[proteus_lives]

30. Agreed.

I don't recall any large-scale, voluntary African migration to the Americas. Off the top of my head I would guess that the remaining percentage is made up of students and individual families that move for a variety of reasons. Maybe small amounts through religious groups and refugees.

[Rowdyboy]

31. You don't recall them because there weren't any....

I can't believe I let such obvious bullshit slide. I won't again.