When Seconds Count: Stopping Active Killers

[virginia mountainman]

A great read I stumbled over today! Thought I would share it with my friends on DU!

A few, passages from the article! Emphasis is mine..

Then 32 people were killed by a lone gunman at Virginia Tech in April 2007. Seung Hui Cho shot 47 people, 30 fatally, in the university's Norris Hall in just 11 minutes.

That means every minute he killed more than three people and shot a total of four. Once again, the gunman continued shooting until a four-officer team made entry and then he killed himself. Law enforcement once again reviewed its tactics.

Based on the Virginia Tech data, top tactics training facilities determined the first officer on scene should make entry immediately with an aggressive attack on the shooter. Every minute the officer waits for back-up, another three or more people could die.

In other words, while it was once considered suicide for a lone officer to take on an active killer, it is now considered statistical homicide for him not to do so....

The other statistic that emerged from a study of active killers is that they almost exclusively seek out "gun free" zones for their attacks. In most states, concealed handguns are prohibited at schools and on college campuses even for those with permits. Many malls and workplaces also place signs at their entrances prohibiting firearms on the premises.

Now some tacticians believe the signs themselves may be an invitation to the active killers.

The psychological profile of a mass murderer indicates he is looking to inflict the most casualties as quickly as possible. Also, the data show most active killers have no intention of surviving the event. They may select schools and shopping malls because of the large number of defenseless victims and the virtual guarantee no on the scene one is armed

Evidently, someone got some sand in the crotch, over the article, causing this to be added...

While that shooting was not addressed in our story, it and others over the last 40 years were analyzed in our investigation.

As journalists, we are not interested in entering into the heated debate over gun control. We are, however, interested in reporting the facts. In this story, the facts point to the active shooters ignoring gun prohibitions and perhaps selecting those locations because they are "soft targets" where no resistance would be found

http://www.wcpo.com/news/local/story/When-Seconds-Count-Stopping-Active-Killers/_yls0jTxAkK8QJR1NKbePA.cspx

Great read!! They really did their homework with that article!!!

VIDEO: AT WEBSITE....

[cliffordu]

1. K&R

[vadawg]

2. Our training is all about getting in their and engaging nowadays

no longer are we to wait for the tac team, the patrol officers just saddle up and go to the sound of gunfire, even if all we can do is contain the shooter until we get more units or drive him away from our contact so he has to concentrate on us, thats what we all train to do now. hopefully theres someone who gets a good clean shot and takes it before we even arrive on scene allowing us to just put the shooter out with the trash.

[virginia mountainman]

7. Thats really is the only way to deal with them....NT

[sandnsea]

3. Here's an interesting read

http://slate.msn.com/id/2099203/ Harris as a psychopath along the lines of Tim McVeigh, and why.

The new police tactics aside; your article that analyzes 40 mass murders at public locations - in a society where carrying guns in public locations is not done - and then concluding that's why the public was targeted - is just dumb.

[virginia mountainman]

4. What do you mean gus are not carried in public?!?!?!

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!! I can assure you that you are completely and TOTALLY WRONG on that one..

The reason you THINK THAT, is because you don't see them...That is why they are called CONCEALED weapons...

Gosh, only little kids think things that they can't see don't exist..

[sandnsea]

5. Excuse me, it's YOUR argument

These are locations where carrying guns is not done. It's the entire premise of the argument. So don't go rolling on the floor laughing at your own damn argument.

I agree, carrying guns at schools, shopping malls, restaurants, the post office -- isn't done in this country. You can't turn around and say it is - otherwise you're defeating your own argument.

You also can't take people whose goal is killing masses of people at one time, and pretend that you can do any kind of weapons analysis of it since no public place is highly armed.

It's kind of like why do robbers rob banks, cuz that's where the money is. Why do mass killers target public places, cuz that's where the people are.

[virginia mountainman]

6. Actually, here in Virgina, and North Carolina

the two states I have had the most experience with CCW...

Very, VERY, few malls, are posted against CCW.. I can only think of 3 in two states right off hand, and they are about 150 miles apart, my wife, being a avid shopper knows all the malls.

Even fewer Restaurants are...

Their are only a few "gun free zones" and they are by statute, like County Schools, Post offices, and Court Houses are the big ones.

In my local area I can think of 3 Small Cities close by, each with Populations of about 10,000.

I can only think of ONE, Privately owned business, with a "No Guns" sign, on a store, or restaurant (its on a restaurant).

Heck, now, about 50% of the Banks, have removed their "No Guns" signs! None of the local banks are posted against CCW, one is posted against Open Carry.

I remember when CCW came to VA, several stores did post signs, against it, but, pressure from us, gun owners "Corrected the vast majority of them"

EDIT, Sorry for the tone in my last post, I totaly misread it somehow

[sandnsea]

8. lol, they look for 'no guns' signs?

Seriously, that's your argument?

Honestly. I have never seen a more frightened and paranoid group of people than you gun glorifiers.

[virginia mountainman]

9. Frightened?? Paranoid????

You clearly do not know me.... :rofl:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

12. Clearly not as paranoid and frightened as you and your kind.

After all you are the ones proposing throwing out the Constitution. Kind of like a recent president, nice company you keep.

David

[sandnsea]

14. That was uncalled for

And when did *I*, *ME*, ever proposed throwing out the Constitution? When did I ever, ever, propose confiscating guns?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

16. No more uncalled for than when you said it.

[sandnsea]

20. A Bush neocon?

That's the same as being too scared to go to the mall without your gun?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

21. Who are you referring to as being to scared to go to the mall without a gun?

[sandnsea]

23. Well apparently that's what it will take

to make sure there is never a random act of violence again, according to the theory in the article. Sounds to me like somebody living in terror of violence if they have to have their gun with them at all times to prevent some random psycho from assaulting the Walmart at any given moment. I don't know how anybody lives that way. Who would want to?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

25. So you are referring to a fictional character in your own mind?

[sandnsea]

26. No. Fictional character

in the mind of the CCW holder.

Have a bad day? You're cranky.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

29. You said you didn't know anyone like that, so it must be a fictional character.

[virginia mountainman]

57. LOL Fiction!! NT

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrCory]

49. Do You Consider It A Virtue...

To defy the rules of conduct here at DU? Will the mods, I wonder? Are you claiming some kind of exemption?

"Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, conservative, Republican, FReeper, or troll..."

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

11. Many of those places have specific prohibitions on concealed carry. That makes them softer targets.

Softer than say a public area where concealed carry is allowed.

David

[sandnsea]

13. And you think school shooters scout them out?

And make decisions based on a mall's conceal carry policy. Really?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

15. So you are saying that the school shooters put no thought into their crime? Wow that's ignorant.

[sandnsea]

18. Students shoot at schools

Employees shoot co-workers and bosses at the job.
Men shoot their wives, or where their wives work, like that nursing home shooting in NC. Do you think he called and asked whether anybody would have their concealed gun with them that day?

I mean really, you're too smart to get into this argument and you know it.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

22. So you think the VT shooter didn't plan his crime at all. Really you're too smart to believe that.

[sandnsea]

24. No. I don't think he considered CCW laws

At All. Not one bit. I think he knew the cops would come and shoot him, don't you?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

28. They didn't, hence the OPs story.

[sandnsea]

31. He committed suicide

Before the cops could shoot him. He planned to die. They all plan to die. They go to places with lots of people so they can kill lots of people. Guns have clearly been outlawed from national parks for years. You don't see mass shootings at Old Faithful do you? No. Because nobody's venting their craziness at park rangers - yet.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

32. You honestly believe that people aren't shot in National Parks, really do some research.

[sandnsea]

33. The article is about mass killings

No, there has not been an epidemic of park killings like there has school shootings, work place shootings, etc. If it's all about the absence of guns, a national park would have been a great target.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

35. Who said it was ALL about the absence of guns?

If it was all about the presence of guns then police stations and armories would be overwhelmed with mass shootings.

David

[sandnsea]

37. The article in the OP n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

39. Just quote that part for me. Thanks.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

34. Guns weren't allowed on the VT or NIU campus. How did that work out?

[sandnsea]

36. Hey, it's the theory in the OP's article

If you want to now say guns were on the campus - well then that negates the theory in the article, that it was an easy target because there weren't any guns.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

38. The OP's article is about police response to an active shooter scenario.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

40. and your argument is that the absence of guns on campus made them safe.

[sandnsea]

41. No. The OP argument is the absence of guns caused the shootings n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

42. I'll wait on that quote also.

[sandnsea]

44. It's in bold, in the OP n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

52. You just conveniently overlook words like perhaps.

[proteus_lives]

17. Not true.

Both my parents have had CC permits for 20 years. They have carried in all the places you listed. I would bet that thousands of other people have too.

[michreject]

50. No carry at schools, shopping malls, restaurants, the post office ???

Wanna bet?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

54. Of course, some people carry there. Criminals and police officers to be specific.

[michreject]

56. I'm fortunate to live in a state that decides where a gun may be carried

A "No guns allowed" sign carries no legal weight. Except the Post Office.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

10. You mean places where carrying a gun is specifically prohibited.

[proteus_lives]

19. K/R! Great article!

I'm glad that police departments are re-thinking their tactics.

I'm a firm believer that concealed carry saves lives and "gun-free" zones end them.

[depakid]

27. If one were to want to "stop active killers" -it might pay to look at a policy that actually worked

as in, a country that adopted a responsible firearms policy and has had no mass shootings in the 12 years since.

I know, that's not really what you want to do- more fun to play Johm Wayne and pretend that advocating gun proliferation doesn't leave blood on your hands.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

30. Can you give us your definition of gun proliferation and who you are accusing of it?

[ContinentalOp]

43. What country is that? -nt-

[depakid]

45. This one:

and here's an analysis of what they did:

http://www.iansa.org/regions/asiapacific/documents/AusGunLawReforms.pdf

[ContinentalOp]

48. Thanks -nt-

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

53. Many of your suggestions violate the US Constitution.

[virginia mountainman]

58. They don't care....It is a right, they don't like,

Mindless fools...

[DrCory]

51. Another Fantastical...

Feat of mentalism:

"I know, that's not really what you want to do- more fun to play Johm Wayne and pretend that advocating gun proliferation doesn't leave blood on your hands."

How do you know this? Can you provide some evidence? Something tangible besides your opinion?

[old mark]

47. I hjave been carrying a gun every time I leave the house for 15 years,

to malls, or wherever. It is CONCEALED, meaning I don't advertise the fact that I have it, and I have never been called on it.

mark

[RamboLiberal]

55. I got flamed here for suggesting the police in NY immigration center

shooting did not react well by staying outside the building for quite a period of time instead of using the Active Shooter scenario which is a lesson that was learned by most law enforcement after Columbine.

After the fact apparently their response didn't cost any lives of wounded but there was no way of them knowing it at the time or that the shooter wasn't still active or that victims may have needed quick emergency medical care.