Is it out of line to say this about the Torture issue? Correct this if it is wrong.

[Mike 03]

There is no conceivable explanation I could think up in a thousand years that could explain how a nation--the United States of America--can profess that we abhor, disapprove of and outlaw torture, while possessing physical, visual evidence that it occurred, and who was the aggressor, and who was the victimized, without having these individuals prosecuted in a court of law.

There must be some disconnect I don't understand.

It is an honorable thing for this current administration to admonish and disavow the conduct of the prior administration with respect to torture, but there remains the gaping wounds of wrongs not yet corrected, even though they are on Bush's watch.

If photographic evidence exists of criminal conduct, what choice is there but to try these cases in a court of law?

Wouldn't to do do otherwise be completely unethical?

[LynnTheDem]

1. 100% absolutely correct.

But that "American Exceptionalism" bullshit kicks in for far too many Americans.

[Supersedeas]

24. it's the same feeling one gets when reviewing Commission report on Kennedy assassination

[glitch]

28. Or that other more recent commission on a devastating national tragedy.

The disconnect is bizarre. I know it's supposed to be a survival technique but it's still freaky to see it in action.

[Jackpine Radical]

2. I think it's pretty obvious that the pics are gonna come out.

I think Obama has known that too. I think he's letting public opinion force him into action of some kind so the wingnuts can't portray the whole thing as a witch hunt.

Well, maybe "think" isn't quite the right word. "Hope" would be the more accurate term.

[Mike 03]

15. Interesting. Thanks for your opinion on this issue.

You could well be right. I hope you are.

Thank you for pointing that out. It is something I should have considered.

[madokie]

23. I think so too

He told us early on that the change we seek is in us. Until we make something happen nothing will happen except more of the same.

[Forkboy]

3. The disconnect is nationalism mixed with religion.

The two combined shut down any other critical faculties and can lead to the rationalization of almost anything.

[Fresh_Start]

4. In Obama's defense

he did say that the individuals have been brought to justice , its hard to take that statement at face value.

I have zero expectation that the architects of torture will ever be brought to trial in the US. I'm hoping that the world court will conclude that the US legal system is an abject failure and will pursue justice on the world stage.

[rhett o rick]

7. How is that in his defense. His position is indefensible. Individuals were murdered.

How can he look the other way?

[Fresh_Start]

10. I don't know that he's looking the other way

I know that some of the abuse has been investigated by the Army CID? and that some people have been brought to trial.
Maybe it was everyone who participated....maybe it wasn't. The problem is that without more information being released, we the people have no way to know whether a competent, thorough investigation was performed.

That's why I'm so vehement about the photos and documents need to be released. Its not because I hate the troops. Its because those pieces need to be inspected in order to have any chance that a thorough investigation was completed.

I'm not an Obama apologist. But I don't have facts to prove otherwise on this issue. I want more disclosure. I want more facts. And as I said before, I don't think America is up to the task needed to clear this cancer. We will need the world to force our hands. And the more incompetent our judicial system is in handling it, the more likely the world will stand in.

[ThirdWorldJohn]

14. Lindsey Graham said that he saw evidence of rape. I do not remember anyone being charged for that

[Fresh_Start]

20. why would you?

how many cases do we know about? We really don't know what was done: I imagine that even under UCMJ publicity would be the anethema to the judicial process. There is no requirement that we are told about any of the actions except when its pursued via a FOIA request. That's why the ACLU FOIA lawsuits are important. Its not the specific photos: its that we the people can find out what was done.

[Senator]

22. There is no other meaning to "look forward," than to look the other way.

And calls for "investigation" are nonsensical when you have the chief torturer proudly "defending" war crimes on national TV with no response but the pretense that it's a "policy" debate.

There is no need for "more" when you already have all you need. The only thing we need more of is enforcement of our laws and satisfaction of our treaty obligations. Those that our greater generations fought and died to forge.

Which is to say we need "more" leadership.

--

[glitch]

29. On The Turning Away

David Gilmour/Pink Floyd

On the turning away
From the pale and downtrodden
And the words they say
Which we wont understand
Dont accept that whats happening
Is just a case of others suffering
Or youll find that youre joining in
The turning away

Its a sin that somehow
Light is changing to shadow
And casting its shroud
Over all we have known
Unaware how the ranks have grown
Driven on by a heart of stone
We could find that were all alone
In the dream of the proud

On the wings of the night
As the daytime is stirring
Where the speechless unite
In a silent accord
Using words you will find are strange
And mesmerized as they light the flame
Feel the new wind of change
On the wings of the night

No more turning away
From the weak and the weary
No more turning away
From the coldness inside
Just a world that we all must share
Its not enough just to stand and stare
Is it only a dream that therell be
No more turning away?

Your post reminded me of this song so I thought I'd share it.

[boppers]

5. Torture has already occurred under Obama's watch. I guarantee it.

Should we hold Obama responsible?

Should he be imprisoned?

Maybe, instead, we should hold those who authorized individual acts responsible.

[rhett o rick]

8. If Pres Obama gave the go ahead to torture then he should be held accountable.

Same as bush and Cheney.

[truth2power]

11. I agree. n/t

[boppers]

12. US administrations haven't given such a go-ahead in recent history.

They approved "enhanced interrogation methods".

Therin lies the rub.

[rhett o rick]

26. Help me here. Are you saying that US adminiatrations gave the go-ahead for "enhanced

Interrogation methods and not torture, so therefor there is a rub? If so, I disagree. Torture by any other name is still torture in the eyes of the law. bush/Cheney knew full well what they were authorizing. If Pres Obama has authorized "enhanced interrogation methods" that constitute torture by the definition of the law, he must also be held accountable.

[rhett o rick]

6. Dang thought i was the first to rec. This is the most important question today.

I am afraid that the answer is that we do not live in a Democracy. Although I do not equate Pres Obama with the likes of bush, I do wonder how much freedom he has to do what is right. There seems to be something that will not allow him to do what we all know is right. Some overriding power that won't let him prosecute. Same thing with Pres Clinton refusing to investigate and prosecute Iran Contra. Someone is telling Pres Obama to keep hands off.

[rateyes]

9. Not only unethical, but illegal.

The Convention Against Torture requires that we hold these people accountable to the rule of law.

[ThirdWorldJohn]

13. Well the USA is being blackmailed by the radical Muslims that will become angry by the release......

of the videos and pictures. Also it will probably show that the military failed miserably at prosecuting those that are guilty and that those 'FEW BAD APPLES' were just the easy target and scapegoats that Rumsfeld and Bush used for a show trial. That is another reason that Bush should have been impeached along with Cheney. But the Dems know that they dropped the ball. Kept their mouth shut. Looked the other way and are therefore dirty by omission. Now we are at a place where the Generals are being quoted as the GREAT AUTHORITY and they are being looked on as wise rulers so that the rights of the populace to see the truth can be curtailed to stop attacks in the future in a country that we invaded by criminal action and should not be occupying in the first place. But letting the Generals create policy for the Federal government hides the fact that the Federal Government is bowing to BLACKMAIL.

And then they act like the war is winnable and that the suicides of our trained military members is just a big puzzle and the shooting of stress counselors by the very stressed military member that is being treated so that he can go on with his military career as the treatment he is receiving dictates that his career is finished is an aberration. And then the brain dead citizenry can use the Generals words to say that they are happy that the Videos and pictures are kept secret from those who have the right to see them because the troops are now SAFER. What a sick joke that we see being played out here.

I ask you before leaving to take note of the fact that the Generals are saying that the US MILITARY will be compromised by attacks upon the military that the release of these videos and pictures will generate because Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld allowed with their incompetence. ALso Note that Obama has allowed the Generals to show how weak the military is in Iraq and that the actions of the guilty has put the US MILITARY in a really bad predicament so much so that the PENTAGON is now putting out statements that contradict what members of the CONGRESS have said about the videos and pictures that were shown privately to them in 2004.

This of course shows that we can and never should have gone into Iraq and should leave before we reveal what a weak and cowardly occupation it is and the military personell station there are merely being reduced to walking targets. Taken all together and shown as a whole just illustrates the need to leave as soon as possible for if the GENARALS cannot conduct the military with out lies and fear then we have no business being in a war.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

25. Well said

and welcome to DU TWJohn.

[mmonk]

16. Disconnect combined with a little guilt.

[ProgressIn2008]

17. America is mired on cognitive dissonance? Thinks it's something other than what it is? nt

[solstice]

18. If it is, then I am not an American and don't want to be.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Here is your answer: EMPIRE... EMPIRES have their own logic

and that includes being "exceptional" and "above reproach."

So until the Empire falls, the emperor, regardless who has the title of President, it is an Emperor, will act to protect the interest of Empire.

The republic finally died on December 12, 2000... that was the official date. You can trace that to Ford's pardon of Nixon... that is when we quite possibly crossed that rubicon and the last elements of the American Republic were hammered and the coffin lid was placed.

Rome is the other Republic where you can actually date it that exactly...

[DCKit]

21. If you can't convert 'em, kill 'em.

The radical fundamentalists are taking over the military, and there's nothing a fundy - whether it's Taliban or TaliBaptist - can't excuse in the name of religion.

As for the rest of us, we've been hollering about it for five or six years already. Nobody is listening. There's nothing they understand short of violence and mass casualties, which only feeds their circular reasoning for even more violence.

Funny how the people behind it all are never the ones on the front lines.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

27. K&R

Kicked because it needs to be kicked...