Hey are solar panels down to $500 per home yet?

[lonestarnot]

When? Every house! Every business! Mandate!

[MercutioATC]

1. They have.

...it just depends on how big you want them to be...

[lonestarnot]

3. What does one get for $500, something that will power the cat box cleaner?

[MercutioATC]

8. If you have a REALLY big cat, yes.

Depending on where you live and the consumption sacrifices you're willing to make, 75W is a start...

[lib2DaBone]

2. Solar panels thatt are shaped like roof shingles.....

Saw a photo the other day of roof shingles that were actually solar cells! Look just like regular roof shingles.

Can you imagine.. selling power back to the Electric company each month? No electric bill.. maybe even a litle profit!

I have to replace my roof in a year or two.. (maybe sooner if we have an active hurricane season) I'm going to look into solar roof shingles.

[lonestarnot]

4. WOOTIE WOOT WOOT! WAY FUCKING COOL!

[ejpoeta]

6. i love the idea. wondering about cost as well as efficiency. i think solar is a great

avenue to look at ways to get clean power. just a matter of cost effectiveness.

[conscious evolution]

9. Solar shingles are expensive as fuck

However,there is now a 30% federal tax credit plus many states have their own incentive programs and tax breaks.
Together,along with the savings in power bills,plus possible profit from excess power generated,the return on investment is not too bad.
Edit to add:Solar prices are dropping.

[roody]

42. Also the value of your home goes up.

[Lorien]

64. They are, but if you plan to own your home for ten years or more they can

pay for themselves and eventually (possibly) earn you income from your utility company.

[demodonkey]

66. How much does "fuck" cost??

Are you talking just general fuck, or do you mean "a fuck" as in a call girl (or guy?) If the latter I would imagine there are all price ranges and qualities to fit all budgets.... unlike solar panels... ;-)

[conscious evolution]

68. lol

As in high dollar hollywood mayflower madame expensive.

[ContinentalOp]

31. I don't know about that idea.

What if the solar panels go bad or newer, cheaper, more efficient panels come out? Or what if your roof leaks? I would think it would be wiser to keep those two functions independent.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

46. In CA you cannot profit from grid tied solar

I would if I could, but I just get to run the meter backwards. The account is balanced annually.

[GreenPartyVoter]

50. Same in Maine

[Lorien]

65. You can in Wisconsin and New York

but I don't know about other States.

[csziggy]

51. Here is a blog by a guy who installed his own PV solar shingle system

It's from a couple of years ago but he gives really good details on what is involved.
Bob's Solar Project
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bgoodsel/solar/blog.htm

Start at the very beginning for a detailed blog on how he proceeded.

[L0oniX]

5. 45 watt panels for $199, 75 watt panel for $499

45 watt http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=90599

75 watt http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=96352

[lonestarnot]

7. Getting better!

Thanks LOoniX.

[seemunkee]

10. Then add in a power regulator, converter and wiring.

Unfortunately those add up and putting in a single 75W panel doesn't do much.
There are some converters that make it so you can plug right into a receptacle, but they aren't UL approved.

I have one of the 45W kits and have played around with it. Haven't come up with a practical use for them though.

[MercutioATC]

11. You'd get a better bang for your buck by cutting consumption.

Solar is expensive and it's of limited value, depending on where you live.

Cutting consumption is cheaper and it works everywhere.

[lonestarnot]

12. Fuck that! Solar needs to improve on a mass scale! Mass production, massive price reduction!

Consumption reduction forced on the poor, what more do you want?

[MercutioATC]

13. Then you're just being silly.

The main problem is the amount of power we consume, not how we produce it.

I'm designing an off-the-grid house for when I retire in 7 years. It'll be mostly microhydro with some limited solar...but it requires consumption reductions on a massive scale. 1000 square feet. LED lighting. Low-consumption appliances. No dishwasher, air conditioning, washer, or dryer. Great ventilation as part of the design. No plasma TVs or hair dryers, etc...

There's no way I could affordably build a house that was energy-independent AND would support all of the toys we're used to. Most people aren't willing to make that change. Even if one just wants to be more energy-efficient, it's a lot less expensive to reduce consumption than to supplement with solar.

[lonestarnot]

14. Bullshit mcmansions!

No one said anything about buying a new house. Pull your head out of your ass!

[MercutioATC]

16. I didn't say anything about buying a new house, either.

Though retrofitting an old house (unless it's actually an OLD house that was originally built with a sensible floor plan) is more expensive.


Why do you want solar panels on your house, to save money or to make an environmental impact? Either way, reducing consumption is more cost-effective.

[lonestarnot]

19. Both environment first, which is already fucked and too late for that, money, too late for that too,

fucked there too. So have a nice day. :hi: :evilgrin:

[MercutioATC]

20. Again, reducing consumption will do what you want solar to do...

...for a lot less money.

[lonestarnot]

21. You don't get it do you redux? Reduction in consumption is already done!

DONE DONE DONE What is so hard about that? What now you want a forced tent city w/o tents?

[MercutioATC]

23. Oh, so you're using LED lighting and low-consumption appliances?

You have no air conditioning?


Just a question...what state do you live in? Solar might not even be a reasonable option for you...

[lonestarnot]

25. hike punt what? Swamper, no dishwasher me, all energy efficient appliances which were replaced with

sweat off my balls, live in sunbelt, now what about people who have no sweat left?

[MercutioATC]

35. Assuming that was English...

...you've cut some consumption....and that's good.

You're in the sunbelt. That's also good.

Solar may be a viable option for you.


I have no idea what you mean by "people who have no sweat left", though.

[konnichi wa]

18. Solar panels alone can't even come close to providing the power a typical house uses.

Even if you could afford them, you'd need more than the size of the house to be useful.

[lonestarnot]

22. with bushitler richies wanting to be richer, we never get anywhere do we...

:think:

[Statistical]

26. Size isn't an issue but cost is.

Assuming you have a south facing roof most homes have large enough usable sq footage to generate necessary power if you are using high efficiency appliances.

[ContinentalOp]

32. Ridiculous.

My parents house is totally off the grid (well, connected to the grid so they can get power at night but...) and powers an over 2000 square foot house, dishwasher, washer & dryer, electric water heater, etc. They don't exactly watch their consumption either. The system wasn't cheap to install though.

[konnichi wa]

34. Thank you for validating my point.

:-)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

48. Typical residential system in my area pays off in 12-14 years

with a 20 performance warranty on the panels. CA and Federal Government rebates/credits make that possible

[ContinentalOp]

52. Um, not even close!

"Solar panels alone can't even come close to providing the power a typical house uses."

Totally not true. As stated, my parents solar panels provide plenty of electricity for a large over 2000sq foot house with all of the appliances you could want. During the day it generates a surplus of energy and runs the meter backwards. It's called net metering.

"Even if you could afford them, you'd need more than the size of the house to be useful."

Not true at all. Where do you get this idea? Unless you have a very tiny house and use an enormous amount of energy, your roof can easily fit enough solar panels to power the average home.

[NickB79]

36. Your parent's house is "totally off the grid", except at night?

:crazy:

A LOT of electricity is consumed at night, when there is a need for lighting and people are relaxing after work using electrical devices.

[ContinentalOp]

53. Yes, it's called net metering.

What's so hard to understand about that? :shrug:

Not technically "off the grid" like the unabomber or something (why would you bother disconnecting completely from the grid anyway if you're already connected?). But "off the grid" in the sense of having a $0 electricity bill, apart from some small monthly flat fees.

This is a typical setup. That way you don't need to have a large, expensive battery setup to store the power. And if you're generating excess energy during the day you're helping everybody by putting some power back into the grid.

BTW, night time is NOT peak electricity use time. For most of the night lights are out and people are alseep, which is why it will be a great time for everybody to charge their electric cars, since a lot of capacity goes unused. The peak hours are during the day when businesses are open and a/c is running.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

49. Then they have a grid tie system and are not off the grid

[ContinentalOp]

54. Yes, you're right.

But I meant in terms of not paying an electrical bill. I would always want to be connected to the grid in case something went wrong with the solar system. The idea is not to eliminate the power grid but to get out from under the criminal electricity rates brought to us by companies like Edison and Enron.

[roody]

44. I have had 9 panels on my roof for eight years,

and pay no electric bill when the year is averaged. I dry my clothes with electricity. My hair too.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

47. Mine do in a grid tied solar configuration, its actually quite easy

16 200watt panels, about 240 square feet. Would fit on any suburban roof. Last year I used slightly more than I generated, this year I expect to provide more than I use.

I use propane for heat and for the clothes dryer, though I don't do much of either. I have evaporative cooling in the summer.

[Mojorabbit]

27. Here is a solar AC

http://www.gearlive.com/news/article/q107-solcool-millennia-a-solar-powered-air-conditioner/
Living in Florida, AC is on the top of my list to find a non electric way around. It is the biggest part of my electric bill.
I have a solar freezer and am getting a solar pump this year for my well. We are doing it piecemeal.

[The_Casual_Observer]

15. I looked into this a little bit to see what's going on in that industry.

What it looks like is that the same old california silicon valley venture capital stanford degree sharks are trying to dominate the R&D of Solar. Since those guys are always out to cash in on the next "big one" expect a rocky road of false starts, lost money, delays, fraud, lawsuits, bankruptcies, broken promises & shitty results that only enrich the same few.

[lonestarnot]

17. Figured as much, that is why I didn't bother.

Thanks for saving me the disappointment and the pain of looking at them again! :hi:

[NickB79]

38. Don't worry, China is working hard to mass produce solar and cut prices

Though you may not like the consequences:

"About nine months ago, residents of Li's village, which begins about 50 yards from the plant, noticed that their crops were wilting under a dusting of white powder. Sometimes, there was a hazy cloud up to three feet high near the dumping site; one person tending crops there fainted, several villagers said. Small rocks began to accumulate in kettles used for boiling faucet water.

Each night, villagers said, the factory's chimneys released a loud whoosh of acrid air that stung their eyes and made it hard to breath. "It's poison air. Sometimes it gets so bad you can't sit outside. You have to close all the doors and windows," said Qiao Shi Peng, 28, a truck driver who said he worries about his 1-year-old son's health.

The villagers said most obvious evidence of the pollution is the dumping, up to 10 times a day, of the liquid waste into what was formerly a grassy field. Eventually, the whole area turned white, like snow."

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/03/solar_pollution_china.php

[AndyTiedye]

30. Depends On How Much You Have Cut Already

[MercutioATC]

41. I'll bet that no more than a handful here have cut to that point, though.

There are scores of things one can do that, while inconvenient, cut consumption. Most people are only willing to go so far.

[Odin2005]

39. Cutting consumption is a short-term band-aid, not a solution.

As a society becomes more advanced technologically it uses more and more energy. Using the energy more efficiently can help in the short term but the ultimate solution is to make sure the energy is as clean as possible. I know this flies in the face of the Luddite orthodoxy that says the exact opposite, that technology is a band-aid and reduced consumption is the solution, but fuck the orthodoxy, they are wrong. Technology is the answer, period.

[MercutioATC]

40. I disagree, but both are valid opinions.

I'm not implying that finding new ways to produce power isn't important, but I believe excess consumption is the bigger issue.

[customerserviceguy]

24. I'm a little surprised that solar hot water heating never took off

I had one of those units installed on my home in 1982 (ex got it in the divorce a few years later), but it did a marvelous job of heating water for about six or seven months of the year. And that was in not-too-sunny Western Washington!

At the peak of summer, it would supply all of our hot water needs, in fact, we had a mixing valve on the setup that actually added cold water to the stuff that came out of the water heater, it was too hot to have in a house with young kids. Even in the rest of the time, every degree that the water was heated by the sun was a degree we didn't have to pay the power company for.

Got a $2500 loan from my electric utility at low interest, a $750 grant from Bonneville Power Administration for sending in monitoring cards every month, and no out of pocket expense. Also got a $1000 tax credit for the system, which made the payments on it for a few years. At that point, the free hot water was gravy. Later on, when the payments started coming out of our pockets, the electric rates had risen enough so that we were saving money by not paying for all those kilowatts to heat the water.

I'm just surprised that we haven't seen them on every rooftop by now.

[Canuckistanian]

28. I've been looking into the concept of a water "pre-heater"

A water pre-heater will raise the temperature of the water to room temperature or a little higher. Apparently, most of the energy in a hot water heater is used just to bring the water up to room temperature (~75F).

With a water pre-heater, you'd be saving lots of energy.

I have an evacuated-tube solar water heater and I think it would be great for that purpose. Now all I need to do is figure out what kind of heat exchanger I could use and figure out the plumbing.

[customerserviceguy]

29. That's exactly how this worked

There was a separate tank attached between the cold water line, and the water heater. Water (in the warmer months) would circulate out of the storage tank into the solar panel, and be heated. It would then enter the water heater, and if more heat were needed, it would raise it up to the temperature that the heater was set to.

In the best of summer, that storage tank would send water to the heater at a higher temperature than the heater was set to, and on the way out, it would be mixed with cold water to match the temperature that the heater was set to. That way, it would extend the supply, we had wonderful warm showers in the summer for practically free!

I recall seeing a very simplified design that took a large glass tube, the size of a water heater tank, the back of it was painted black, and it was placed in the sun. There would be natural heating of the water on the way into the regular water heater, but of course, you'd have to use valves to shut it out of the system in winter, and have a means of draining it out. Those things would have to be done manually, but I think this was in Mother Earth News, and people were into doing that sort of thing at that time.

[Juche]

33. I think they are down to $1 per watt

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/09/industry_week.php

http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/24/first-solar-claims-1-a-watt-industry-milestone/

http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN1846022020071218

I have read that with mass production it may be down to $0.50 per watt by 2012 or so.

However you still have to install them and buy inverters and all that. But I think an average home needs about 4000 watts of solar power to be off the grid, so it is $4000 per home just for the solar panels. But I wouldn't recommend going off the grid, I would stay hooked on and just resell the excess back to the utilities, then get energy from them at night.

However panels (even when you add in installation, which is probably another 5-10k) will increase the resale value of your home and cut electricity costs. Getting a low APR loan for 10 years and making payments the same size as what your electric bill used to be would let you get solar panels and not feel like you are paying for it. And after 10 years you will not have any electric bills and your house will be worth more than it was before. Win/win.

[Statistical]

57. Your prices and ROI aren't even in the right league.

Solar is closer to $5 per watt not $1.

There have been news stories like this for a decade now.

10 years ago solar was about $6 per watt now it is $5

4000 watts * 5 = $20,000 + $6,000 (inverters, wiring, racks) + $8,000 installation

If you want to have power in a power outage a battery bank & charger will run you another $3000 - $5000

So cost is closer to $35K - $40K.

Amortize that over 25 years and it still is more than your electric bill.

It will take $3 solar (total installed cost) before it makes sense financially.

Right now if I had $40K cash I could simply put it in CDs and the interest would pay for all my energy needs with no risk of damage or maintenance.

Now of course rebates & tax credits can bring the cost down.
Bad news for me is VA has relatively low electricity rates and no rebates/credits which makes the ROI not good.

[Juche]

58. Depends on what kind of panel you buy

Companies like nanosolar are already shipping thin film solar panels for $1/watt, however because it is a new technology they are on backorder for the next 12 months. First Solar is also claiming they can produce for $1/watt, but that means final sales will likely be closer to $2/watt.

http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/24/first-solar-claims-1-a-watt-industry-milestone/

However, according to solarbythewatt $3.15 is the cheapest available solar panel right now. Thin film will be very big if they can scale up production.

http://solarbythewatt.com/2009/04/23/lowest-solar-panel-prices-per-watt-2009-04-24/

[Statistical]

59. $3.15 is the cheapest available.

The article indicates that nanosolar brought production costs down to $1/watt. It doesn't indicate that anyone is selling anything at anywhere close to $1/watt. They had a substantial upfront up in R&D and building plants. That costs has to be absorbed. It will be absorbed by amortizing the cost of R&D and the plant and increasing the per unit cost. If the market can bear $3/watt solar they will sell their panels for $3/watt not $2 and certainly not $1.

$3.15/watt is the best deal right now (315% of your $1 quote). You need to add S&H. PV panels tend to be expensive to ship because of weight, large size, and being fragile. After S&H cost is closer to $3.50. Add in mounting brackets and labor and you are pushing $4.15 - 4.50 for 1 watt installed.


You think $1/watt retail solar prices are right around the corner. I hope I am wrong and you are right. I remember articles from 10 years ago talking about $1 solar being right around the corner.

When you show me an in stock retail price for $1 per solar I will:
1) admit I am wrong
2) thank you
3) put panels on my roof.

I have a feeling I will be waiting at least 5-10 more years (if then).

[ProgressiveProfessor]

60. Rates in CA are sky high and getting worse

Your costs are low. A friend is looking at going with a PV system. 3200 watts with a pole mount and all the bits is closer to $35K from multiple vendors. However, based on the current incentives and rates it will pay for itself in 12 years and over 20 years show a 16-18% annual ROI untaxed.

Mine came with the property but needed an update. Amateur installation. Had a pro clean it up and the yield went up. I will have to replace the inverter in the near term. Still it beats paying for power.

Some are put off by CC&Rs and HOA rules but there laws in CA that over ride that.

[Statistical]

61. Even with higher prices ...

the combination of incentives & high electricity rates mean it can payoff eventually.

For me no incentives + electrical rate of only 11cents per kWH (annual average) and the fact that I don't have $30K cash so I likely will need to finance it ended up showing a payback period of 26 years. Not a good "investment" when most panels have a 20yr or 25yr warranty.

It is slowly inching in the right direction though. Eventually dominion will jack our rates up and then it makes more sense.

Maybe fed govt could offer no 20 yr loans to finance solar projects.... :)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

62. 12-14 years for payoff in CA right now

Warranties for inverters run 10 years. They live longer indoors.

Panels normally have a performance warranty along the lines of 80% of rated power at 20 years

[Stevenmarc]

37. Thin film should drive the price down.

[roody]

43. Hey are cars down to $500 yet?

When? Every garage! Every business! Mandate!

[Juche]

45. Buy a used metro

A used metro or chevette can be had for $500. Good times.

[demodonkey]

67. I used to have a Chevette. Got around 39-40 mpg. Wonderful car; I loved it.

Bought the Chevette new. My first "new" car. Drove it for over 100,000 miles. Unfortunately I did a lot of highway driving at the time and I had to get something else when the Northeast states raised their speed limits to 65 and 70 mph. "Little Red" was too underpowered to keep up with the trailer trucks that were constantly breathing down my rear bumper after the speed limits went up.

I sold it to my Aunt, who drove it until she died several years later. Then her estate sold it to her minister for his daughter to drive to college.

It was always a good, reliable car.

Don't mock. I would buy another new Chevette in a heartbeat if I could.

[Juche]

69. I shall continue to mock

[earth mom]

55. Instead of bailing out the banks they should have put solar on every home & business in this country

Damn, I am so fucking pissed that Gore didn't run in '08. I'd bet he regrets it now too. :argh:

[krispos42]

56. It would be nice.

There're doing some great work with inkjet-made organic solar panels printed out on the same kind of plastic that a soda bottle is made of. Not as efficient per square yard, but a lot cheaper per watt.

In theory, you could just buy a roll of the stuff and spread it out in your back yard or on your roof like a carpet and solder a couple of wires to it.



Small wind turbines are for sale as well, a couple of thousand bucks will get you a wind turbine.


http://www.pacwind.net/products.html

[DatManFromNawlins]

63. So... who takes the loss for this mandate?

Because the technology is way more expensive than $500 a house, and whatever gets installed today will be vastly inferior to the technology installed 10 years from now.

Either the industry will have to be subsidized, or it will go out of existence entirely.