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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:29 PM
Original message
Robert Reich-- "Manufacturing Jobs are Over"...Robots are In/Knowledge Based is King....Kool Aid
Edited on Sat May-30-09 01:36 PM by KoKo
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/robert_reich/2009/05/the-future-of-manufacturing-gm.php?ref=fpd
The Future of Manufacturing, GM, and American Workers (Part I)
May 29, 2009, 10:40AM

What's the Administration's specific aim in bailing out GM? I'll give you my theory later.

For now, though, some background. First and most broadly, it doesn't make sense for America to try to maintain or enlarge manufacturing as a portion of the economy. Even if the U.S. were to seal its borders and bar any manufactured goods from coming in from abroad--something I don't recommend--we'd still be losing manufacturing jobs. That's mainly because of technology.

When we think of manufacturing jobs, we tend to imagine old-time assembly lines populated by millions of blue-collar workers who had well-paying jobs with good benefits. But that picture no longer describes most manufacturing. I recently toured a U.S. factory containing two employees and 400 computerized robots. The two live people sat in front of computer screens and instructed the robots. In a few years this factory won't have a single employee on site, except for an occasional visiting technician who repairs and upgrades the robots.

Factory jobs are vanishing all over the world. Even China is losing them. The Chinese are doing more manufacturing than ever, but they're also becoming far more efficient at it. They've shuttered most of the old state-run factories. Their new factories are chock full of automated and computerized machines. As a result, they don't need as many manufacturing workers as before.

Economists at Alliance Capital Management took a look at employment trends in twenty large economies and found that between 1995 and 2002--before the asset bubble and subsequent bust--twenty-two million manufacturing jobs disappeared. The United States wasn't even the biggest loser. We lost about 11% of our manufacturing jobs in that period, but the Japanese lost 16% of theirs. Even developing nations lost factory jobs: Brazil suffered a 20% decline, and China had a 15% drop.

What happened to manufacturing? In two words, higher productivity. As productivity rises, employment falls because fewer people are needed. In this, manufacturing is following the same trend as agriculture. A century ago, almost 30% of adult Americans worked on a farm. Nowadays, fewer than 5% do. That doesn't mean the U.S. failed at agriculture. Quite the opposite. American agriculture is a huge success story. America can generate far larger crops than a century ago with far fewer people. New technologies, more efficient machines, new methods of fertilizing, better systems of crop rotation, and efficiencies of large scale have all made farming much more productive.

Manufacturing is analogous. In America and elsewhere around the world, it's a success. Since 1995, even as manufacturing employment has dropped around the world, global industrial output has risen more than 30%.

We should stop pining after the days when millions of Americans stood along assembly lines and continuously bolted, fit, soldered or clamped what went by. Those days are over. And stop blaming poor nations whose workers get very low wages. Of course their wages are low; these nations are poor. They can become more prosperous only by exporting to rich nations. When America blocks their exports by erecting tariffs and subsidizing our domestic industries, we prevent them from doing better. Helping poorer nations become more prosperous is not only in the interest of humanity but also wise because it lessens global instability.

Want to blame something? Blame new knowledge. Knowledge created the electronic gadgets and software that can now do almost any routine task. This goes well beyond the factory floor. America also used to have lots of elevator operators, telephone operators, bank tellers and service-station attendants. Remember? Most have been replaced by technology. Supermarket check-out clerks are being replaced by automatic scanners. The Internet has taken over the routine tasks of travel agents, real estate brokers, stock brokers and even accountants. With digitization and high-speed data networks a lot of back office work can now be done more cheaply abroad.

Any job that's even slightly routine is disappearing from the U.S. But this doesn't mean we are left with fewer jobs. It means only that we have fewer routine jobs, including traditional manufacturing. When the U.S. economy gets back on track, many routine jobs won't be returning--but new jobs will take their place. A quarter of all Americans now work in jobs that weren't listed in the Census Bureau's occupation codes in 1967. Technophobes, neo-Luddites and anti-globalists be warned: You're on the wrong side of history. You see only the loss of old jobs. You're overlooking all the new ones.

The reason they're so easy to overlook is that so much of the new value added is invisible. A growing percent of every consumer dollar goes to people who analyze, manipulate, innovate and create. These people are responsible for research and development, design and engineering. Or for high-level sales, marketing and advertising. They're composers, writers and producers. They're lawyers, journalists, doctors and management consultants. I call this "symbolic analytic" work because most of it has to do with analyzing, manipulating and communicating through numbers, shapes, words, ideas.

Symbolic-analytic work can't be directly touched or held in your hands, as goods that come out of factories can be. In fact, many of these tasks are officially classified as services rather than manufacturing. Yet almost whatever consumers buy these days, they're paying more for these sorts of tasks than for the physical material or its assemblage. On the back of every iPod is the notice "Designed by Apple in California, Assembled in China." You can bet iPod's design garners a bigger share of the iPod's purchase price than its assembly.

The biggest challenge we face over the long term -- beyond the current depression -- isn't how to bring manufacturing back. It's how to improve the earnings of America's expanding army of low-wage workers who are doing personal service jobs in hotels, hospitals, big-box retail stores, restaurant chains, and all the other businesses that need bodies but not high skills. More on that to come.



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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. Next Big Thing--Robot Repair. nt
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
45. Yup, not to mention robot manufacturing! n/t
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. That would be done by robots as well. nt
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #47
77. Noooo!1!!! n/t
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #47
85. Actually the self replicating machine is coming and it will do for physical objects...
what Napster did to music and the internet did to intellectual property in general.

http://reprap.org/bin/view/Main/WebHome
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. So basically we should mooch off 3rd world workers while we replace our own with robots?
Free Trade is stupid.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. With out the free flow of labor, of people, yes it is.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. Which means that there are too few jobs and too many people.
That is not going to be good.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. That's true. Ideally, the increase of machine work should mean that humans are freed up to
dance, play music, write, and interact with other humans, to discover to invent, to paint, etc.

In practice the gains in productivity go to the top and everyone else can die.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Life is what people make of it.
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Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. I don't know how old u r, John, but in the 60s it was put forward that this was
exactly what was going to happen--we'd have so much leisure time that work might take up 10 hours a week. We could, as you said, build, write, raise families and help friends, philosophize, etc., etc. Look how that turned out.

The past 30 years' worth of productivity money belongs to us, the workers, and we got squat. Now they're trying to tell us we have to do "idea" work for them -- why should we? So they can steal THAT productivity too? But they have a way to force us -- no income, no healthcare, no house.... honestly, there needs to be a country-wide revolt/strike/sitdown until we get concessions. And yes, no one should buy a damn thing except necessities.

I don't know what Reich will propose in his next installment, but I bet it isn't tripling everyone's wages. Can you imagine the screaming from the companies? And we know what will happen along with that -- prices of everything will triple without price control.

Because the powers that be refuse to be decent citizens and are so eaten up with more, more, more, we are doomed to a total collapse of the system as it stands now, and its replacement with, I fear, a totalitarian system of some kind. And it won't be socialistic -- can't have us workers thinking we're worth anything.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. In the 1960s, Robert Justman wasn't admitting he produced Star Trek because he wanted to make money
By the 1990s, he said "it was all about the money".

1 of not 50 documentaries have it available to be seen.

I agree with your second paragraph:

The past 30 years' worth of productivity money belongs to us, the workers, and we got squat. Now they're trying to tell us we have to do "idea" work for them -- why should we? So they can steal THAT productivity too? But they have a way to force us -- no income, no healthcare, no house


Though if you want to revolt, that's fine. Just don't ask anyone to do it for you...
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:40 PM
Original message
Atomic energy; To cheap to meter!
I'm in my early 50's.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. I know I'm going to get flamed for saying this
But the 60's generation (babyboomers) as a group votes Republican. They have since 1980.

http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/results/president/national-exit-polls.html

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
83. wrong. 1980 election: carter & anderson were the liberal choices.
18–21 years old (b. 1959-1962)

- percent of votes cast: 6
- Carter: 44
- Reagan: 43
- Anderson: 11


22–29 years old (b. 1951-1958)

- percent of votes cast: 17
- Carter: 43
- Reagan: 43
- Anderson: 11


30–44 years old (b. 1936-1950)

- percent of votes cast: 31
- Carter: 37
- Reagan: 54
- Anderson: 7


45–59 years old (b. 1921-1935)

- percent of votes cast: 23
- Carter: 39
- Reagan: 55
- Anderson: 6

60 years or older (pre 1921)

- percent of votes cast: 18
- Carter: 40
- Reagan: 54
- Anderson: 4
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #83
93. Guess I never considered Anderson
Stand somewhat corrected. 1984 and 1988?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #93
95. 1984 boomers went for reagan, but less % than their elders or youngers.
beyond that, i havent investigated.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. yes in the sixties we were told that we would be
Edited on Sat May-30-09 02:51 PM by truedelphi
Living a rather Utopian life. And in the seventies I worked about 25 hrs a week, and managed to ahve a savings account and buy a condo.

Now many people will not be allowed to retire - ever. As their retirement plans have been screwed over for the sake of the Ponzi scheme known as Wall Street.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. This robot thing may actually be the downfall of Capitalism.
The elites won't be able to say that they contribute to society if they don't pay anyone to do anything for them.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
39. It was suppose to be...
...that as productivity increases, so do wages. The amount of money per unit of productivity was suppose to stay constant, so that as technology improved productivity (production per hour) the wage per hour would also go up.

However, we let the companies consolidate, we cut taxes on the rich, and let the exploitation of cheap labor begin. The rich took bigger and bigger paychecks out of the company coffers rather than investing it in the company to avoid high income taxes. The giant corporations used their buying power to reduce protective laws and tariffs so that they could exploit the cheap labor there.


Companies are only as moral, ethical, and patriotic as they can afford to be. To a small independent bakery, they have to be very moral and ethical, or their community won't support them. Nor can they ruthlessly exploit the local community without killing themselves in the process. To a giant corporation, especially a transnational one, they can use and discard whole states and small countries with impunity.

That's why so many companies are outsourcing... they can do so to exploit their customers without retribution.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #39
61. Well, as you can see, since 1979 (gee, who was president after that year . . .), THAT didn't happen:
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/HughBeaumont/86

Somewhere along the way, the wage payers forgot to think of the wage earners as far as who their (and the economy's) bread and butter is. They reserve that distinction for the major shareholders now.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. What they want...
...is for SOMEBODY ELSE to pay the high wages so that people have the money to spend on THEIR products!



My question for them is this:

Who is your target customer demographic? a) People that have money to spend, or b) people that don't have money to spend?


If your answer is a), then how the fuck do you think they get the money to spend in the first place?????
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #16
99. Remember Magnus: Robot Fighter? Everyone had loads of free time to kill. Oh, well it was a dream. nt
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #99
115. I must have missed that. I don't know what you are referring to. But i love free time.
If I had enough free time, I'd walk from Alaska to Chile.
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #115
129. Magnus: Comic Book Hero in a future Earth where humans let humaniod robots do all the work. nt
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. The upside is - once we are dead, we are no longer harming the environment!
Edited on Sat May-30-09 02:41 PM by truedelphi
I am having a banner made to go on my ashes' urn - 'At last, I am truly green!'
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I always wanted my body fed to great white sharks and be put back into the food chain.
Crabs would get the scaps I suppose...
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
103. When the food and oil runs out we will all be Green.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #103
118. Perhaps as in
'Soylent Green!'
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #118
120. Exactly. Science fiction does come true too often. nt
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
96. Or work themselves to death working a low income job. I am 68 years
old and I have never seen what I am seeing now - families that have no time for getting together because they have to work to make ends meet. 4 day work week hell - 24/7?
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
98. Zero Population Growth. Its coming to the US very soon. nt
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PM Martin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #98
111. What trend do you have to back up this claim?
:shrug:
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #111
123. It will no longer be possible to afford lots of children. Think China' One Child law. nt
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #98
113. We're already there- it's just masked because we are importing young people .
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. Just bring on the Cylons and be done with it
Especially if they look like Caprica 6. I'll accept Caprica 6 as my personal Cylon overlord.

That's change I can believe in.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. Stop watching that drivel.
What's theorized and used as "storytelling" may be based on some social events, but what they write doesn't often end up becoming reality.

Unless you want it to, but that's your problem.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I really don't have a choice now do I?
The series is over except for one more made for TV movie, which will probably be lame.
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MichellesBFF Donating Member (313 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #23
44. I can has Chief with beard?
I for one welcome our new Cylon overlords.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Quit censoring what people can watch. How would you know what it is unless you watch that
drivel?

Quit being a hypocrite.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #24
117. Saying "stop watching that drivel" is hardly censorship (nt)
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PSPS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
5. A domestic robot jockey is still preferable to an outsourced one.
Besides, another detail omitted in this "analysis" is that, while worker productivity has increased tremendously due to automation and other factors, wages haven't increased at all.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. All productivity gains have gone to the top 1%
Edited on Sat May-30-09 01:45 PM by AllentownJake
We could afford things like Universal Healthcare, Better Public Transportation, Better public services if they were taxed appropriately for their hoarding of productivity gains which would in turn create more jobs.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
43. Commenter over at TPM replies to Reich: "What a Crock of Shit!" (good read)
Edited on Sat May-30-09 03:48 PM by KoKo
what a crock of SHIT! I have the highest disdain for politicians who suddenly see the light after they could have done something about it. I put you squarely in this category - right there with Scott McClellan.

Pretending that you are some sort of progressive oracle now makes me laugh. It is sick, your self importance shines through, and you contradict almost all of your administrations official actions and policies which are still all in place. When you could have made a difference, you didn't. Now you pretend to have insights, and to be some sort of progressive leader or role model. Your ship has sailed, you sucked up to power and money when it mattered. Now you are just a Monday morning QB like the rest of us, except your career sucked. It is like listening to Joey Harrington expound on the intricacies of QBing to Peyton Manning. A joke, just cuz you were there doesn't mean you are an expert. On manufacturing, I don't think you understand, I think you sort of understand, and you are trying to CYA. I get that.


Blaming knowledge and robots is partially right. But it is so self-serving I am disgusted.

I know about eliminating headcount for efficiencies. That has been my job for GM, Ford, Lear Corp, and a Toyota supplier. You pretend to have a simple explanation, but it is laughable for anybody who actually knows what they are talking about. You never got your shoes dirty, so your conclusions are lofty, made from 10,000 feet above the action.

You sound like that idiot Tommy Friedman - who uses the internet on a train in China - and this proves some stupid point he tries to make. Look! It's one factory with two employees and a bunch of robots!! That proves that it is all KNOWLEDGE's fault. Give me a fucking break.

It must be convenient to take none of the blame for your policies. It might help you sleep at night, but the former steel, textile, and autoworkers are not sleeping soundly. And it is more YOUR fault than KNOWLEDGE's.

Tax policies, and trade policies have had much more of an effect than evil robots, or mad scientists. YOU ARE THE REAL VILLAIN HERE.


NAFTA, similar treaties, and the tax loopholes have caused the migration of whole factories. The reality is that the two-person factory you saw is a complete and total outlier. It makes you look like an idiot to argue based on an example that is surely one-of-a-kind. It is like me arguing that smoking makes you live longer, becuase I met one grandma who was 104 yrs old and smokes everyday. It is called an outlier - how stupid are most of our public officials? Christ, any college sophomore wouldn't use logic like that.

If your argument was true, we would see EVERY factory still in America, just with less employees, and more robots. But that is not the case. Sometimes reality is a bitch, moreso if you live in Michigan than if you are some smug politician with millions in the bank.

Your theory doesn't explain companies closing US plants, and then openning up plants to make the exact same thing in China, Mexico, etc.

This has happened very often, and it is because of your politics of raping the middle class at command of your corporate masters.

The corporations move their operations because it is less expensive, due to our trade policies, treaties, and labor laws.

Enviromental protections, union wages, and tax costs are all reasons that factories MOVE. No factories move HERE, you'll notice. But if we had a poor, ununionized labor force, provided tax breaks, etc. then we would. This is pretty obvious to anybody who actually works as a professional in any capacity related to manufacturing.

Only pretentious jackasses blame robots and knowledge, when they and their cronies put the laws in place that ENSURED the wholesale destruction of manufacturing jobs in this country, and by extension the eradication of the middle class.

YOU worked hand in hand with Allan Greenspan to make sure there was an appropriate level of "worker insecurity." It is in the history books.

Instead of having the honor to second guess the trade/tax/treaty/tarrifs of YOU and YOUR cronies, you blame a robot that can't defend itself.


DISHONEST, and DISHONORABLE

I hope you never spout this garbage at a UAW meeting, you'd be eaten alive with the facts.

If we wanted to save American jobs, it would be simple: re-instate the tariffs that we always had in this country to protect our workers. We had steel tariffs, clothing tariffs, etc.

Until YOU and Bill Clinton destroyed all of that.

Act like a man, and live up to your war against the middle class.

The ultimate goal of politicians is exposed by this kind of two-face bullshit:

bad event:
"None of this is any fault of my policies or the laws I pass!" (and blame robots if remotely feasible)

good event:
"I take all of the credit for this great thing! It was the result of my policies and laws!"
Posted by Captain Obvious
May 29, 2009 9:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #43
54. It's shown him in a new light to me. I obviously knew much less than
I thought I did about him.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. I was shocked reading his OP over at TPM....I'm still hoping
that his further posts will clarify. But, as this commenter on TPM's site has vocalized...

On first read of this OP Robert Reich seems to be "Friedman on a train in China posting from his laptop" about how the "little people live and what they should expect to receive from the Elites in the coming decades." Sheesh...it was really bad ...the reaction I, and others had to a person we respected and thought was seeing the REAL AMERICA...not the Corporate/Military Industrial/Media one..

I should have known it had all gone so far...

Robots are America....Sheesh...what is this guy drinking?
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. Perhaps what enrages me more than anything else, is the godless way they
see only their own narrow, materialistic, self-interest in the present day. The larger society from which they sprang, history and the future mean nothing. They alone are to be the beneficiaries via this growing "intelligence" culture, of all the death and mayhem on the fields of battles down the centuries suffered by our forbears - and indeed in Iraq and Afghanistan today. That's what rankles more than anything. They thought they were doing it for their families, friends and country. Who could have imagined our national cultures could have become so evil?

Its leaders, it seems, are the monsters of our Brave New World, predicted with such clairty by Aldous Huxley. All that remains is for us to be officially designated by them as "epsilon minus semi-morons", thrust, wholesale, into the service industries. In the UK, I expect we're already Class V social grouping, or some such. Anglo-America, as a vast shanty-town of hamburger stalls.

I don't expect for a second that we will ever get back to the old consumption-mad past (no bad thing), but Reich's appeal for compassion on the third world, should not preclude compassion closer to home. Work paying a living wage, according to the standard of the day, as well as Charity, begins at home. A twin-track approach, in fact, is called for.

If Mr Reich knows how to combat the "mailed fist" of the rich, he'll be unique in the annals of mankind, despite honourable efforts in that direction by the likes of Roosevelt, Bevan, Lloyd George, and others equally noble, if less powerful.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #59
70. Thanks...yes..and what I see is the "Entitled way they Sprang."
Myopic vision from Doctoral Degrees that herd them all into publishing what their "MENTORS" request.

The "System" puts all of them into "Little Boxes" to verify the views of their Master Professors on whom their lives going forward for $$$$$$$$'s are all dependent.

It's a Circular World in Academic Society. In AMERICA...the land of the FREE if you have Global Students to SUCK IN!
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #43
91. Excellent response!
I really like this part:

If your argument was true, we would see EVERY factory still in America, just with less employees, and more robots. But that is not the case. Sometimes reality is a bitch, moreso if you live in Michigan than if you are some smug politician with millions in the bank.

Your theory doesn't explain companies closing US plants, and then openning up plants to make the exact same thing in China, Mexico, etc.

This has happened very often, and it is because of your politics of raping the middle class at command of your corporate masters.

The corporations move their operations because it is less expensive, due to our trade policies, treaties, and labor laws.


Thanks for posting this.
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MarjorieG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
9. Still think new products for greening, mass transit, etc. improves our share, but assembly jobs do
seem to be over. We need more small to middle niche industry.

Interesting, as usual, from Reich.
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
121. Products for greening and mass transit will be made in factories.
Those factories will go overseas, and not just because of wage expenses. Job safety requirements are much stronger here than in Mexico or China.

Ironically, by moving those production jobs overseas, those "green" products will be made in countries that either don't have or don't enforce much in the way of environmental laws, which is simply absurd.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. Those without jobs aren't needed & have no right to existence.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
11. The bulk of humanity are not super-intelligent data manipulators and analyzers
Edited on Sat May-30-09 02:24 PM by Zodiak
And never will be.

Human intelligence and ingenuity falls on a bell curve. Not everyone is qualified to be an engineer. In fact, very few are.

Human intelligence has not improved that markedly throughout history. We know more, but we are really no smarter than we were when the first guy planted the first crop, establishing the need for the first city.

The take-home of this analysis is that the bulk of humanity will not be needed for the future. If you happen to fall below the bell-curve, you will become a big-box employee or a hotel worker. Good luck finding enough of those jobs for that many people.

Artists, musicians, writers? Are you kidding me? The world is full of artists, musicians, and writers, and the great bulk of them never make it big enough to even be noticed, much less eke out a living. If I saw our culture investing in these areas and opening up opportunity for these fields, I would be far more comforted. But all I see are cheaply-hired Korean artists and record companies churning out crap for music now while suing everyone in the sun for music they marketed 50 years ago.

This is a bunch of theoretical nonsense that completely ignores human diversity and the current economy for the poor. A Star Trek kind of world where everyone is a highly-trained expert sounds really nice, but remember in that world, very few people were good enough to be in Starfleet. The rest of humanity just isn't discussed.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Near the end there he suggests as much.
Edited on Sat May-30-09 02:33 PM by Marr
I thought he was saying the problem isn't so much how to bring back manufacturing jobs, but rather to raise the wages for the jobs that do presently exist, from supermarket checkers to gardeners. I think it's a good point, personally.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
42. It's a good point, and I support that of course. But that is about it.
To think that big-box employees and hotel workers will be the mainstay jobs for most of humanity while the elites who have demonstrably priced-out markets nowadays will sit at the top is not tremendously realistic.

There has been no push to give lower paid service workers a living wage, or even ensure that they get treated fairly. There has been no effort to give opportunity for musicians, artists, writers, and other such creative thinkers. Everything is outsourced or removed from the market by gatekeepers. In the meantime, engineering jobs are going overseas while domestic engineering jobs are getting H1-B employees to work for cheaper, not to mention R&D, and ITT (which, amazingly are all the thinking jobs Reich refers to). This is reality. There is no safe harbor because of this wonderful future global economy with robots and data crunchers. It is sad that our best Democratic minds are coming up with utopian scenarios that ignore the economic winds that are buffeting Americans around as well as basic human socio-biology. Their paradigms cut huge swaths of people from the economy altogether and pretend that the cherished sectors of the economy aren't falling apart as well.

Here's a good manufacturing/assembly job. Devote a healthy sector of our economy to making solar panels, geothermal turbines, and wind tubines, and then set up a service economy where we have tons of people install these things all over the US and abroad. There is some manufacturing.

How about devoting a sector of our economy to building houses that encourage sustainable living? With all of the empty McMansions lying around that no one can pay for or pay to keep up, we need to build houses people can afford.

Both of these ideas will require hands, lots of them.

I'm sure if I was an economist in charge of US labor policy, I could think of more. After all, I'd be the "chief innovator" in this theoretical paradigm.







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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
72. I understood what he said...but the way he said it also deserves questioning as to where
Edited on Sat May-30-09 07:31 PM by KoKo
he is coming from. It's very DLC what he said.. AND...he deserves to be CALLED DOWN ON IT!

Don't you think? We can't let this Repug Meme of Commity carry on or we are lost as an "opposition party." And, then we end up with Jeb Bush in 2012.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. Very true
Genius 144 0.13%
Gifted 130-144 2.14%
Above average 115-129 13.59%
Higher average 100-114 34.13%
Lower average 85-99 34.13%
Below average 70-84 13.59%
Borderline low 55-69 2.14%

The jobs he's talking about would only be available to the Above Average to Genius IQs. That is about 15% of the population.

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #29
73. OFGS! You post some IQ test to VERIFY Reich's Comments?
:shrug:
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #73
78. What
That there are about 15% of the population is capable of the jobs Reich is speaking of that will be required to earn a decent wage?

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. We must be talking at cross purposes to each other....
:shrug:
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
12. Efficient? If only they were more capable of putting out solid, non-toxic goods...
"Efficient" is hardly the only buzzword, and their own pollution is a result of their own so-called "efficiency".
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
13. 5
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
14. I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords... n/t
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. bite my shiny metal ass

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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. Okay... but you may not remember it!
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
75. You Lie your ASS OFF...trying to be so snarky...shivering in your shoes...
ayyyy...
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
18. Very interesting article. To be perfectly frank,
Edited on Sat May-30-09 02:29 PM by Marr
if it had been written by almost anyone else, I probably would've dismissed it out of hand as globalism propaganda.

Of course, we can't all be product designers and writers and so on-- so the problem is indeed how to raise the wages for the low-paying jobs that currently exist. It's an interesting point.
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PM Martin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. What about promoting effective birth control?
Overpopulation is going to be a massive problem.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Every sperm is sacred
Didn't you know that?
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #25
76. snark...snark...snark...it's become the Soup du Jour on DU...Pardon my bastard French...n/t
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
86. Overpopulation is a right wing myth -nt-
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #86
102. Overpopulation is a reality, not a myth. nt
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #102
112. Environmental problems and famine problems are issues of overconsumption...
and poor distribution of resources. We produce enough food to easily feed the whole world. Birthrates decline once countries are industrialized and many scientists say that the world population itself will begin to decline some time this century. Where's the overpopulation?
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #112
119. It has been stated that if everyone on the world is to
live at the level of those in the US, we would need 3 Earths.

Overpopulation can be measured by the collapse of food sources such as fish.

Overpopulation can be measured by the fact that there is not enough land and resources to have grass-fed land animals, such as beef, pork and chicken. Factory farmed animals in large numbers pollute the environment and cause disease in humans.

Overpopulation can be measured by the fact that there is research and production of GMO plants to meet the food requirements of this world. GMO plants kill biodiversity in the world, and harm those who consume them.




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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #119
125. Well said. Too bad humans will keep overbreeding regardless. nt
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #112
124. Cheap oil allowed the human race to overbreed during the 20th century. When its no longer cheap, ...
food prices will soar. There will be a massive die-off of humans about mid-century, depending on how soon the oil reserves deplete. In a sense, most humans are here due to cheap oil, IOW. Even now the "Rat-pack" effect is lowering the quality of life in most industrialized countries and suicides are on the increase worldwide. The party is over and the piper will be paid.
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #22
101. Remember: Soylent Green is People! nt
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
122. It's still globalism propaganda even if Reich wrote it.
He's not always able to walk about the country in other people's moccasins, and he ends up writing junk like this.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
31. Yes -- Robert Reich Has Drunk the Globalist Kool-Aid
Right.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. More like realized reality for what it is
Unless we have a huge Luddite Revolution, Manufacturing Jobs are GONE

Deal with that reality, rather than pine for a past that never was - is all he is saying

We can't become Reaganites now...
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. What? Reaganites and free traders are the ones responsible for the demise of American manufacturing
Edited on Sat May-30-09 03:15 PM by anonymous171
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #37
58. No but the opposite argument
We can't sit here and long for a past that never was...

The Reaganites longed for the past of the televised 50's

We long for the past of the job security of the 50's

Either way, we can only move forward, not long for the past...
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. Ah I see.
Good point.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #58
84. why is it we can't have job security? who made this rule?
because it's convenient for the ownership class we don't, that's the sole reason.

they'd also like us dependent on them for our every need, impoverished, & subservient.

yes, let's "look forward."
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #33
52. You better hope that's not true because when we completely stop making things
we will be truly at the mercy of any country that makes our crap for us. One boycott will bring the country to its knees and people will be starving on the streets because we'd be out of business.

And service jobs pay shit and I don't see how the economy can be considered a good one when the people who work for a living can't afford to live much less save up and buy anything.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. You don't understand - automation is on its way to replacing ALL manufacturing
It's gone, say goodbye...

This may be bad for this country - it may very well be bad for the entire world...

But it will happen, whether we like it or not...
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #57
80. Don't you feel that's an "Overstatement?" Robert Reich propably visited ONE Factory...
and makes a sweeping generalization based on that.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #80
100. Robotics and machines are being adopted more and more
Its a trend - if you want to deny its happening then go ahead
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #100
126. True...but there are still areas where "hands on" could provide jobs...
and where it can't be all "software or Info-Tech" driving the markets.

What do you do for a living. Are you in a good zone with not be threatened your job could "move out?"

:shrug:
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #57
97. I think that may be true in the short run but what bothers me about
most economists forecasts is that they ignore the effects of global warming and oil depletion in the long run. Energy shortages would be a real drain on the robot economy and the violence/instability in many of the poorer nations from the effects of global warming would also not be a help.

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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #33
106. Too many people, too few jobs=Bleak future. nt
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PM Martin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Technology does bring greater efficency
The problem is with the "free" trade policies of the past 25 years.
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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
36. I got me a robot vacuum cleaner, but, honestly, I did not fire my maid..on the other hand
I never had a maid TO fire!
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matt819 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
38. Yeah, but. . .
Sure, there may be the reference to design in California, mfr in China, but for how long. This has been the argument for many years. America's strength is in its technological superiority. We maintain our strength by excelling the knowledge arena. That's perfectly fine except for the fact that China and India are turning out engineers as well. There was a report last week that China is about to mandate strict fuel mileage requirements for cars made/sold in China. Do you think they're going to turn to engineers in Detroit to make this happen? No. They're going to call on their own engineers to do the design and engineering. This isn't to say the expertise isn't here, but it's not a foregone conclusion that we are going to be in the lead.
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
40. Unfotunately the service jobs that have replaced manufacturing pay shit wages.
A person could live a good life at assembly line wages. At Starbucks, not so much.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. They are also harder to unionize. nt
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
46. I worked in manufacturing in the 1980s.
Back then, I was making about $10/hr, with 2 weeks paid vacation and full health insurance that included dental.

My last job was in an office. I made just above minimum wage, no paid vacation, no health insurance.

Yeah, Reich... that sure was an improvement! :eyes:
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
48. This seems largely ass-backwards to me
For example, suggesting that there are too many people on the planet because there aren't enough jobs for all of them seems to mean that "jobs" are the real inhabitants of Earth and "people" exist to serve them.

But it really starts with people. It always has.

The first question has to do with the carrying capacity of the Earth -- how many people can it feed and clothe without being degraded. You start from there.

The second question is how many of those people it takes to provide for all the rest. In hunter-gatherer times, everybody had to be out there hunting and gathering. Agriculture mean that 95% worked their asses off to support a small leisure and creative class. Now it takes only 5% to raise food for everyone else -- and pretty soon the rest of the maintenance chores aren't going to demand much more.

But that doesn't mean you need to beat the population down to 300 million -- all of whom will somehow find work producing the food, clothing, and housing that would be need by six billion. It means that you have to radically rethink the nature of human life.

There are a lot of delicate philosophic issues there -- but the most immediate question is a practical one. We've used "jobs" as a rough and ready distribution mechanism for getting food and shelter and such from the people who produce them to the people who consume them. You work, you earn money, you buy stuff, that gives work to other people, and so on.

This is a pretty crude system -- which is why it creates endlessly unsolvable problems with unemployment, welfare, and so forth. But we've not only accepted it as being the system we're stuck with for the moment but have tended to exalt it as both inevitable and morally freighted. If you don't work, you're a bad person -- and even such traditional demands as charity to the poor come to be looked on with suspicion.

That's what we've got to get out from under -- but it isn't going to be easy. Marx's simple dictum of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" has been demonized as it is -- but we're not only going to have to go with that, but with a hyper-version of it.

At the same time, we're going to have to recognize that the "from each" part doesn't just mean sweat-of-the-brow stuff. It also means everything from folk crafts to emotional support to loving parenting in a world where greater longevity plus population controls may mean a lot more "parents" dedicated to nurturing other people's children.

In short, it will be something we can't even imagine at this point -- but despite that, we've got to get from here to there, and do it virtually overnight.

Looks like fun.

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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #48
87. We need to move beyond our obsession with work.
The future is in full UNemployment. "Work" in the sense of selling the years of your life just to be allowed to survive needs to eventually come to an end. When we get rid of all of the dirty work, and all of the make work, people will be free to pursue whatever calling they wish.
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #87
109. I dont agree. Meaningful work is not "wasted time" in my book. Many
people enjoy working at jobs that enrich us. No one likes working at a job they hate, of course.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #87
116. We need to eliminate Wage Slavery, not work. nt
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
49. The "Midas Plague" economy? ;^)
"The Midas Plague" (originally published in Galaxy in 1954). In this new world of cheap energy, robots are overproducing the commodities enjoyed by mankind. So now the "poor" are forced to spend their lives in frantic consumption, trying to keep up with the robots' extravagant production, so that the "rich" can live lives of simplicity. This story deals with the life of a man named Morey Fry, who marries a girl from a higher class. She is unused to a life of consumption and it wears at their marriage. Morey eventually hits on the idea of having the robots help him to consume his quotas. At first he fears punishment when he is discovered, but instead the Ration Board quickly implements his idea across the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas_World
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #49
128. By Fred Pohl, of course -- give credit where credit is due
Pohl, who turns 90 this year, was responsible for some of the most thought-provoking social science fiction of the 1950's, both solo and in collaboration with C.M. Kornbluth. His work doesn't hold up all that well on rereading, since plausible characterization tends to be subordinated to the needs of the satire, but he was an incredible practitioner of the what-if school of SF, taken to its extreme. He'd worked on Madison Avenue, and nobody could skewer advertising and consumerism as well as he could.

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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
50. Is Robert the fourth?
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
51. Small problem, Bob (oops sorry) There are 300 MILLION Americans
Edited on Sat May-30-09 05:23 PM by kenny blankenship
Manufacturing remains the MASS employment engine for society. If it's not here, we'll have mass unemployment and social decay.
And if you don't think it can get worse than it already is, you're out of your tiny mind.
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galileoreloaded Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #51
62. I am pretty sure he gets it.....
the rest of us not yet. We better get to adapting or dying in a hurry.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #62
69. No he doesn't.
He's trapped in his little economist world where everyone is a rational economic actor. Meanwhile, in the real world, if mass unemployment were to occur, there would probably be a revolution of some kind. If Capitalism doesn't support us, why should we support it?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
53. Well, you better figure out how we all are going to make a living then, Bob.
Because we can't all make a living selling each other burgers and Amway and life insurance. And it impinges on our national security if we don't create our own food supply somehow. This is complicated stuff, Bob.
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #53
88. The very concept of "earning a living" is disgusting.
Mankind will continue to be totally fucked up unless we can get beyond the concept of work.
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #88
107. Yeah lets just stay home and breed more people into an overcrowded world. nt
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #107
110. The world isn't overcrowded.
That's a load of xenophobic nonsense. The world population will start to decline within this century.

Anyway, I don't know what that has to do with my assertion that people shouldn't be forced to work in order to justify being allowed to live. Basic food, shelter and health care should be free to all, and we have the resources to make that a reality, particularly as technological solutions start to radically increase productivity. It's just a question of revolutionizing the way we organize our society.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #53
90. Don't worry, the 3rd world scum will make our food for us.
Free Trade FTW!



:sarcasm:
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
55. so metropolis!
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #55
74. Worship the machine!
ROBO-MARIA COMMANDS IT!
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
60. I'm usually a fan of Reich, but what he doesn't seem to comprehend here..
is that, in our current quasi-capitalist system, all of these "new jobs" exist in the service of manufacturing. Journalists, lawyers, doctors, composers and consultants still have to earn the bulk of their money from selling their services to the people who sell manufactured products. A country earns money by selling either commodities or finished goods to other countries. Ask England how they are faring these days as a financial services based economy. The answer is: not too well.

Sooner or later, these "new jobs" Reich writes about will follow the manufacturing jobs they've replaced. They'll be outsourced to cheaper locales or they will disappear due to lack of demand. The fees doctors and lawyers charge will have to decline sharply as fewer people can afford to buy their services and technological innovations render many of those services obsolete. Composition, writing and art will continue to devalue as an increasing number of people gain access to the tools necessary to create these works, distribution systems grow more fragmented and entertainment options expand.

Counting on "new jobs" to save our old system is a dead end. It won't happen. It's the system that needs to change, not the job descriptions.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #60
68. This wasn't the Robert Reich that many of us counted on...I understand what you say
and it's hard to parallel what Reich says with what other Dem Economists are saying.....

So many holes in Reich's post...........and the folks over at TPM did do an admirable job at shooting what he said down...

Check out the site:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/robert_reich/2009/05/the-future-of-manufacturing-gm.php?ref=fpd
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
64. This is not new. I have been predicting this for decades.
What happens when there is no longer any meaningful work to go around?

One of my friends dealt with this on his web page. He calls it Automation Socialism.

One of my solutions is the 16 hour work week. But good luck having it implemented.

--imm
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #64
81. We go back to some Agrarian Ways for many who have the inclination and
get back to making much of our stuff here by hand. We don't need much and we've bought so much in the past years that the "Goodwill Stores and Thrift/Second Hand Shops" can keep us supplied with other needs for many years.

Just saying...
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #81
89. Regressing into the past is exactly the wrong way to go. -nt-
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #64
108. Crime will increase as people get desparate with nothing to lose. Very bad, this is. nt
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
65. Well, they are
You can't refute reality...
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
67. and this is why education is so important!
If we don't improve the system to keep up with the pace of technological progress, we're not gonna make it.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. Agree..but we have to "Turn Over" the "Legacy Students" to get to the rest of
Edited on Sat May-30-09 07:25 PM by KoKo
Americans who have bright, or even Brilliant Ideas who have to wait in line after the International/Global Students to get into Harvard, Yale, MIT, Stanford, Wharton, Duke...etc...etc...etc...

Graduate Schools..not for some Okie or Hillbilly from hills of NC...or pick a state...where there are so few they are like Clarence Thomas...and the rest are left behind.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
82. And the reason the service jobs suck is because...
...there is a much sharper gradient between the well-paid high-level types and the crappily-paid low-level types.


With manufacturing there's a lot of stuff in the middle between the guy putting nut A on bolt B, and the guy designing the stuff. With the services, not so much. Far too often you're either flipping a burger or the store manager, with not a lot in between. Or the underpaid law clerk or the $500/hour lawyer.


Not to mention that manufacturing directly creates material wealth. All the marketing and analytical stuff is just an aid to get the manufactured products to the customers that need them.


We need services, too, of course. I love doctors and policemen and journalists just as much as the next guy. And we need bankers and accounts to provide wealth to start businesses and run the economy. But our entire economy can't be based on buying and selling intangible assets of arbitrary worth.

When Ravi Batra and Kevin Phillips both say something, you HAVE to give that weight!


And that's not even including the national security aspects of the whole thing.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #82
92. Work/Labor/Salary will have to be redefined in some way by the end of the century
Not Capitalism, Not Socialism... something entirely new...
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
94. "You're on the wrong side of history."
I'd say never trust anyone who would ever say something like that.
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Gman2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
104. I am a moldmaker, process engineer, automation engineer, product designer
I analyze every movement of humans and machines to best utilization. Unlike many of my peers though, I am obsessed with ergonomics. When humans are involved. While the hidden value added is true, they dont compensate on that basis. I have always been considered a necessary evil. To be hated and tolerated. I roved, looking for innefficiency targets. I solved problems that management had been stumped by for years. I improved quality, reduced waste, streamlined paperwork. Improved robot functioning. eliminated steps. Did I get accolades? Management would pat you on the head to your face. To your back, they must steal the glory. You still get no respect from the man. Even being the ubiquitious cog, gets you nothing but a meager paycheck. And I probably saved them millions. All I got was a teeshirt. And I had to win that in a raffle.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
105. Robots don't buy cars.
Or houses.
Or even attend Mr. Reich's seminars.

People of means do.
"Means" means money.
That's why people work.

Robots work for free.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #105
127. That's the Damned Truth...although we now have "Zombie Banks" ruling things...
it doesn't mean that "the average folks" are gonna' go along with this crap...
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PM Martin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
114. See this:
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