Watada: My opinion of this man just changed...

[cynatnite]

When I joined the army I did it knowing what would be asked of me. Vietnam war had ended less than ten years prior to my joining. I disagreed with Watada about not going with his unit even though I am against the war. It's one of those things where you know your obligations and you follow through with them. I still believe that.

But a photo from a thread here at DU changed how I felt about Watada and what he is doing...

This is the thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=60167&mesg_id=60167

I hope the owner of this photo will forgive me for cropping the pic, but I wanted to show what exactly it was that changed my opinion.



While I might not have done what Watada has done, it is a matter of conscience. There is no arguing with that and my respect for Watada has grown because rather than go to Canada, he has stayed here to face the repercussions with dignity. He has my respect and I salute him for holding onto his beliefs despite everything. He's following his conscience.

[bdrube]

1. If more followed his lead, the war would be OVER.

And before you get mad at me, I served in the military myself.
 I swore to defend my country, not invade those that had not
attacked America.

[NNN0LHI]

9. I have never served but I think your sentiments are correct n/t

[me b zola]

2. Life is a journey

...and I have big respect for those who allow themselves the ability to change their mind or see things in a different light. :grouphug:

[133724]

3. If you mean this pic I have no objections...

see the seattle pic thread for more...

[Kagemusha]

4. In most civilized countries they'd simply have let him resign

but they won't here, and since he won't budge, they'll throw him in a cell for the longer term instead.

[acmejack]

7. Operative term there is "Civilized".

I am afraid we fall shorter of the mark by the day...

[Kagemusha]

8. Well that's where stop-loss gets you.

Instead of letting officers resign when they feel they can't represent the Commander in Chief in battle anymore, you stop-loss them and prosecute them for their personal beliefs as a deterrent to others.

[133724]

5. As an aside

It was in my church in Seattle the LT Watada chose to announce his dicision. Our pastor would have never allowed it if he was not sincere in his beliefs...

[NNN0LHI]

12. Thank you for that important piece of information n/t

[MadMaddie]

6. cynatnite thanks for sharing your evolution in beliefs

That is the great thing about DU'rs, I find that most if not all members are willing to listen and think about the many conversations that go on here. Many members like yourself reflect and are willing to examine issues and are even willing to adjust their opinions like you have done.

Here's a kick for you.:kick:

[Disturbed]

10. It is a soldier's duty to refuse Unlawful Orders.

Since the Invasion of Iraq was Illegal it is every soldier's duty to refuse to serve in combat there. That is the argument is it not?

[cynatnite]

18. The argument is flawed...

If an officer goes to a soldier and orders him to steal a car, that's an unlawful order. The UCMJ is the guideline for what's considered lawful and unlawful. The legality of the war depends on who you talk to and their views on it.

I do think this trial will make some headlines. The legality of the war will be brought into a courtroom for the first time.

[ConsAreLiars]

11. You can read or watch a fairly lengthy interview witrh Amy Goodman

that he gave explaining his decision shortly after the initial announcement at:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/06/08/1418206

[Irreverend IX]

13. What if a bunch of generals said...

"We cannot, in good conscience, allow this nation to continue the killing of unborn children, so we are taking control of the government and banning all forms of abortion."

You can't let officers disobey the civilian command, you just can't. The total subordination of the military to the civilian government is the only thing that separates a republic from a military dictatorship. I loathe the Iraq war, and if enlisted personnel want to ditch the military I have no objections, but officers have to follow orders or face the consequences.

[NNN0LHI]

15. What if a bunch of generals said...

...in the 1930s and 1940s that no we are not going to set up a bunch of gas chambers and ovens to kill and cremate these people by the millions?

Don

[Disturbed]

16. "officers have to follow orders"

It is their duty to refuse to follow Unlawful Orders!

[Irreverend IX]

17. Unfortunately, the war hasn't been deemed unlawful by US courts.

However illegitimate it may be, the US military command must follow the orders of the government unless those orders are struck down in court. If the military's officers decide they can do whatever they feel is right, what's to stop them from taking over the country?

[cynatnite]

19. And for the first time the legality of the war will be in a court of law...

This will be a headline making case in the weeks to come.

[w4rma]

22. When the Abu Gharib torture was happening the torture there hadn't been deemed unlawful by US courts

And the lowest ranking soldiers were convicted because they followed orders and apparently should have gone to law school because they didn't understand how to interpret the law well enough.

Noone, to my knowledge, who gave the unlawful orders was convicted.

[cynatnite]

23. In basic training soldiers are taught about lawful and unlawful orders...

While I do think those convicted were scapegoated it doesn't absolve them of their crimes. They should be punished for their actions as should those who gave the orders.

[Irreverend IX]

29. The actions at Abu Ghraib...

Were illegal per the Geneva Convention and other laws of warfare. Preexisting legal decisions make it a criminal act to torture prisoners. However, no legal decision has yet been made against the Iraq war. I understand why people sympathize with Watada, and he is no doubt doing what he sees is right, but that doesn't give him an excuse to disobey the civilian government. If a couple parents decided to hunt down and kill the man who raped their daughter, or if an Enron shareholder who lost everything decided to stalk and shoot the company's executives, I would understand why they committed those acts but would nonetheless support their imprisonment for murder. Military insubordination, like revenge killings, is something with the potential to destroy the very fabric of society.

[w4rma]

33. In both cases the orders were supposed to have been based on the law.

I don't buy your brush off of an explanation. I think you're just going with what you feel may be the status quo.

The Abu Gharib people followed orders that were deemed illegal.
Watata disobeyed orders because he deemed them illegal.

Both orders "were illegal per the Geneva Convention and other laws of warfare". Preexisting legal decisions made both the Iraq invasion and the torture illegal.

Btw, apparently the judge decided not to decide whether the Iraq War was illegal. His decision was that the courts could not determine the legality of the war, therefore the decision should be left to the elected officials.
(see post 31. - http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/300161_watada18.html)

[Sailor for Warner]

24. Thank you thank you thank you Nabeshin

*Hugs, Nabeshin* Ive been screaming this for a few days, all I got was flame.

[Karenina]

14. Perhaps at the proper time

in the proper place and with the preoper words you can talk to another Duer.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x39481

[cynatnite]

21. I think he'll have to come around on his own...

Keep in mind, I wouldn't do what Watada did. I'd go if ordered no matter how I feel about the war. Watada is following his conscience and there is no army regulation for that.

Thanks for the link.

[Sailor for Warner]

25. Thsnks for the plug K n/t

[mmonk]

20. What if they gave a war and nobody came?

[Kickin_Donkey]

26. Cool ...

glad you came around.

Like Cindy Sheehan or Chuck Hagel or Sean Penn or Mike Malloy, he's trying to end this invasion and occupation so his fellow soldiers don't have to die in an unconscionable war. Our war against the war is being fought on mutiple and varied fronts, and he's doing it from the inside.

[rman]

27. Does the military not have the obligation to disobey unlawful orders -

as per the Military Code?

Senator Innoway mentioned as much at the Iran/Contra hearings.

[Sailor for Warner]

28. Yes but he still needs to go to Court Martial

To determin if the order was unlawful.

And everyone keeps forgetting that he also made public statements criticizing his COC which, lawful order or not, he still violated the UCMJ.

[cynatnite]

30. In court they'll argue about the legality of the war...

will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[133724]

31. Ruling is a setback for Army lieutenant

Army Lt. Ehren Watada cannot use his conclusion that the war in Iraq is illegal as a defense for refusing to deploy there, a Fort Lewis military judge has ruled.

<snip>

Head refused motions by Watada's lawyer, Eric Seitz of Hawaii, that were argued at a Jan. 4 pretrial hearing to dismiss four charges of conduct unbecoming an officer over public statements and one count of missing movement with his unit to Iraq.

Watada faces a general court-martial beginning Feb. 5. If found guilty of all charges, he could face a maximum penalty of six years in prison and dismissal from the service, Army officials said.

Army officials said prosecutors could not comment.

In his decision, Head said the legality of the war is a political question, not a question of fact for the courts to decide. Head also cited precedents concerning limits upon military members' free-speech rights in the Supreme Court and the Court of Appeals of the Armed Forces.


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/300161_watada18.html

[aaronbees]

32. His father was quite eloquent speaking ...

on his son's behalf at yesterday's protest in D.C. I have much respect for Watada and his family.