Wow, what a quote....

[CoffeeCat]

"I'm not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers."
----William Gascoyne

[givemebackmycountry]

1. Now, that's what I call speaking the truth.

I'm stealing that big time.
I will also give credit where it is due.

[CoffeeCat]

2. It's a breathtaking quote...

I read it, and my heart skipped a beat!

I found it on reddit today. http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/900b1/im_not_convinced_that_faith_can_move_mountains/

[Ohio Joe]

3. Yes... Wow

A powerful statement. True. Horrible. Necessary. It pulls you in and repulses you at the same time. I find it brilliant.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

4. That wasn't "faith" -

that was fanaticism, and there is a world of difference.....................

[Schema Thing]

6. It was faith.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

13. degrees...................

slippery slope.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

16. Not for me -

they're quite opposite.

I can see that faith is the beginning of fanaticism, but, by the time it has been entirely corrupted, it's a completely different entity...........................

[Tuesday Afternoon]

17. well...yes...but isn't that what degrees will do? I guess I am speaking

metaphorically, but mathematically it works, too right. Degrees will go full circle.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

20. The only difference between what we think -

and we more agree than disagree - is that I don't see fanaticism as ever returning to faith, going full circle.

Fanaticism takes off into its own horrendous circle........................

[Tuesday Afternoon]

22. yes....I think we agree and you are probably expressing it better

that I ever could... :toast:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

25. I bet I have an unfair advantage over you,

my friend - I was educated by the Jesuits. They throw this stuff at you in asides as they're leaving the room. But, thank you for your kind words.

Here's to us:

[Tuesday Afternoon]

31. heh...to us

:toast:

cool little patriotic gif thingie you have there....rightclick/save

[Tangerine LaBamba]

34. Fun, huh?

Enjoy.............

[Tuesday Afternoon]

36. thanks...I will. Leftovers from 4th of July ?

here we go...off on a tangent :)

[Fumesucker]

42. Fanaticism can be, but isn't always, separate from faith..

There were fanatical communists among others that did not have a faith as we normally think of it.

I think the men that rammed the WTC had faith in their god. (assuming the government story is true)

[rrneck]

47. Fanaticism is its own reward. nt

[Chulanowa]

30. Nobody really asked you, though. And your opinion has no impact on fact anyway

Please understand... Religion and faith, whether yours or someone else's, is not all goodness and light and unicorns and fluffy waffles. There's good, and there's bad, and there's plenty of in-between, but it's all still faith and religion. You can't simply pretend that the parts you don't agree with "aren't really there" because they ARE. Tim McVeigh and Mother Theresa, both Christians. Cat Stevens and Osama bin Ladin, both Muslims. You can argue around in circles about who's "good at it", but these people are all religious, all are faithful, and you don't need to take it as a personal affront to yourself when someone points this out.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

32. Nobody's arguing except you,

and there's no call for rudeness.

In fact, I was asked to clarify my opinion, and so I did. That does seem to have troubled you and brought forth a rather viscous stream of blather. You don't even understand the difference between faith and religion, and isn't it odd that you're the first person to bring up "religion," which is irrelevant to this discussion.

You're "good at it," it seems - blather, that is. And don't take that as a personal affront - just a simple statement of fact..............

[Chulanowa]

38. Yeah, my apologies for the rudeness

It's been a bad couple of days. No excuse I suppose.

My point is just that so often I see people pointing at some religious maniac and going "THAT'S NOT RELIGION!" in the same manner you're doing with faith. I'm just saying that you can't just pick and choose what counts and what doesn't. The people flying those planes had faith. They had faith that performing that act would improve the position of those they identified with, or at least harm the position of those they regarded as enemies. It was faith.

This doesn't make faith a bad thing. Like anything else, it has its ups and downs. Faith can lead people to do crazy things like donating every cent they have to those in need, leaving themselves in the gutter... or it can lead people to do crazy things like commandeering a jet liner and plowing it into a target. Biq you and I would both say the first example is a much "better" person... But it doesn't diminish the faith of the other guys.

Now, the faith of their buddies who weren't on the plane... There ya go.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

45. If you didn't read the beginning of this exchange,

which was really interesting and civilized and fun - your insertion notwithstanding - you'll see that the issue was faith v. fanaticism.

Your apology is accepted.

The matter of religion is immaterial here..................

[RC]

40. Greed by rich men in neck ties and kilobuck suits.

No way could 9/11 happen without a lot of help over here.

[tomp]

43. it was bush. nt

[UrbScotty]

7. Thank you for saying this.

[The Magistrate]

8. What Would That Difference Be, Ma'am?

"My son sticks to his guns; your boy is headstrong; that kid has a bad attitude."

[Ken Burch]

10. Especially if the first kid actually FIRED those guns at the second one

And thinks G-d told him to because the second kid was gay, or black, or latino, or Palestinian(or Israeli)or anything else that the first kid considered "The Other".

[Tangerine LaBamba]

15. Faith, to me, is gentle and welcoming,

a celebration and a reverence for life, a respect for others, and a belief that there is a reward in living a good life, that there is something larger than us humans, exhorting us to be our best, teaching us that we are all connected, that we all have a responsibility to each other, that to cause hurt or pain is a sin, a transgression that must be addressed in order to be forgiven.

Fanaticism corrupts faith and makes it a weapon, an instrument of damage and destruction and death, while it hears no one else, respects nothing else, and punishes those who do not believe as the fanatics do.

While faith is a beginning, fanaticism is an end.......................

[Tuesday Afternoon]

19. would it not depend on where one places one's faith? I would not

necessarily consider Satan worshiping to be reverent for life, gentle, or warm.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

21. I'm not addressing the object of the faith -

that's a whole separate subject.

But the manner in which the faith is executed and how it's incorporated into one's life - that's what I'm looking at.

I also do not see "worshipping" as a necessary component of faith. In your example, I'd say that Satanists were more fanatics than people of faith.....................

[Tuesday Afternoon]

24. ok...maybe so. I am thinking we are on the same page

and that is close enough for me...

[Tangerine LaBamba]

27. I think we are, too -

it's a matter of degree and then a mad tangent, as discussed above in another subthread.

Fascinating stuff, huh?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

28. yes...I like to use the math analogies and I like how you put that.

indeed. fascinating (to me, anyway :D)

[Tangerine LaBamba]

35. Actually,

I think of it all in math concepts, but that's a whole different tangent.

Thanks for a lovely, civilized, fun discussion.............

:yourock:

[Tuesday Afternoon]

37. aww

thanks :blush:

I love the math concept as well....I am always trying to explain God in math terms....

at one time, I liked this one: (God = Time)

but, that still does not do it .....

[mr blur]

29. Not much difference for abortion clinic bombers and murderers.

Faith is a belief in something for which there is no evidence. Whether it's Jebus, Allah or Satan it makes no differnce.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

33. The Jesuits taught me that

for those who have faith, no explanation is necessary.

For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible.

Hope is also a belief that something will or will not happen. That doesn't make it any less real. Faith exists very comfortably without the "religion" gloss. You conflate the two, and that will confuse you, because it's not necessarily so.

Your bombers and murderers are hardly people of faith, but they are fanatics, so you do see why that quote fails. Good for you.....

[armyowalgreens]

41. There was no difference. They had faith in fanaticism.

They still justified their actions because of God.

[babylonsister]

5. I've also seen from a distance what it can do to countries, for

centuries. Awesome, disturbing to me at times, and I wish the US coulda/woulda just butted out!

[Ohio Joe]

9. Interesting

I've always considered the US's interference in the affairs of others to be driven more by greed then by faith. Certainly, faith was a cover used by bushco for their crimes but I always felt the real reasons were closer to greed.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

23. Agreed (hey, that's a pun!)

We're different from the Palestinian-Israel crowd because we're into it for power and the presumed riches (of all kinds) that must necessarily follow. Greed.

In other places, it's a game of "My God Is Better Than Your God," and that's a first-rate no-win situation...............................

[Schema Thing]

52. I've seen what my past faith can do to families

namely destroy them.

[snot]

11. Is there a more specific reference for that?

E.g., publication, who the publisher was, year, page no. or the like?

[CoffeeCat]

12. Here's the reddit link...

...where I found the quote. http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/900b1/im_not_convinced_that_faith_can_move_mountains/

Apparently, the guy is just some random computer nerd. He said the quote, and it's gone viral.

The comments from everyone on reddit are interesting and hilarious.

"I want to have sex with that quote." :rofl:

[snot]

51. ok, tracking back from that, found this:

I’m not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I’ve seen what it can do to skyscrapers. -William H. Gascoyne, “One-liners,” Op/Ed section, San Jose Mercury, Jan. 20, 2004

[Ghost in the Machine]

14. It's just a play on words that have already been spoken/written...

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings ..."

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=t&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGQD_enUS264US264&q=science+flies+you+to+the+moon+religion+flies+you+into+buildings


:hi:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

18. What a catch!!!

Googlers everywhere should have a plastic replica of you on their monitors, bowing to it at least three times a day.................

[Tuesday Afternoon]

26. excellent work

:thumbsup:

[optimal-tomato]

39. I disagree.

The quotes are close, but they are both short and referring to religious extremists flying planes into buildings. But OP quote was an overt reference to a common concept of faith (moving mountains) and a real result of faith (destroying skyscrapers). Your quote is intended to contrast the real result of science with the real result of religion.

They're both good quotes, and are indeed similar, but I wouldn't assume the OP quote was derived from this one. (But I'm often too eager to extend the benifit of the doubt, so there we are.)

Thanks for the quote, though. :)

[Schema Thing]

44. It's a great line. I'm having trouble finding anything out about the source.

[rd_kent]

46. "Science flies you to the moon, Religion flies you into buildings"

[BlooInBloo]

50. I'm stealing that.

[GeorgeGist]

48. That faith by any name ...

is old non-sense.

[proteus_lives]

49. Depends on how you look at it,

Faith is one of humanity's double-edged swords. Darkness and light. On one hand you get planes going into skyscrapers but then there are people like Emil Kapaun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Kapaun

Faith has inspired and moved people to do amazing and horrifying things.

You can't boil down faith into a quote.