Which tactic is more effective in persuading people to change behavior?

[prolesunited]

Providing information to them in a calm, non-threatening manner or verbally beating them over the head and telling them how bad and evil they are.

When I first came to DU, I was definitely a Democrat, but not a very good one by many standards that seem to be held sacred here. I smoked. I ate meat. I -- horror of all horrors -- even shopped at Wal-Mart. I had never been to a protest in my life, had a sporadic voting record and never made a political donation in my life.

Much has changed since then. I don't smoke, eat meat or shop at Wal-Mart. I've been to numerous protests, never missed voting in an election since and have made donations when my budget allows.

What changed me? Well, I can certainly say it was not the smug, morally superior tone that has been exhibited here lately and seems to dominate the conversation.

Rather, changes evolved over time as I learned more, saw things from different perspectives and examined how certain things would fit into my life. And DU was always a place to turn to for support and education.

I'm not sure I would be so open to change if I were to join today. In place of support, we often have judgement and condemnation has seemed to replace tolerance and understanding.

We all come here with different experiences and at different places in our lives. Some are farther along in their journeys than others and some will never arrive at the same destination as you — and guess what? That's OK.

So, next time you are trying to persuade someone to see your perspective, how about putting down the hammer and reaching out a hand?

[pitohui]

1. neither tactic is effective

Providing information to them in a calm, non-threatening manner or verbally beating them over the head and telling them how bad and evil they are.



tactic no. 1 has never changed a single action, and tactic no. 2 rarely changes actions unless you really beat them hard enough about the head and shoulders to make them change thru fear

it is a sorry comment on human nature, i suppose, but propaganda and the appeal to emotion or self-interest is FAR more powerful than providing info in a neutral calm, "non-threatening" manner which makes no impact and only impresses the other person that you don't care much either way or have anything at stake either

we know thru personal experience than being calm is a waste of time and gets us bowled over, we just don't always know where to go with this experience, hence we go too far the other way and become scolds


it is telling that the very areas where you have made changes are areas such as walmart and eating meat where some of the most vicious flamewars have occurred -- no calm presentation of information there, instead, a grab for the gut ("get em by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow")

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

5. But you still win more with honey than vinegar

[pitohui]

18. honey is just manipulation, it doesn't win the asperger's people for instance

"honey" to me is actively offensive, i call it the "salesman" personality

agree it DOES work on most people -- but it's still offensive to me because it suggests my intelligence has to be subordinate to your willingness to coax me into something

it's a play to emotion, it's winding you around someone else's will, it's just as icky as any other propaganda technique

if it's more effective, and it probably is, fine, but ALL techniques to manipulate human minds are a little unattractive when looked at too closely

[prolesunited]

21. I'm not talking about manipulating people

I'm talking about being respectful, civil and rational.

Solid information stands on its own merit and will persuade people if it's presented in an effective manner.

[uppityperson]

8. actually the first has changed actions of mine.

Neutral calm non-threatening way of appealing to my emotions and self interest works.

[greatauntoftriplets]

2. As my mother always said....

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Andy Stephenson was gobsmacked when I quoted this to him, since he thought it was entirely a Southern expression. I assured him that it is not.

:)

[John Q. Citizen]

11. My mom said that too, and she was from the Monterey Bay area.

[greatauntoftriplets]

13. Mine was from Chicago...

And her parents were from Luxembourg. I think it is a universal expression. And true.

[NC_Nurse]

3. Personal experience trumps rhetoric

every time.

I think we have to realize we all come from different backgrounds and that we all need respect. Nobody ever changed my mind by being an angry
self-righteous zealot. I know they haven't "been" where i've been. Get a clue people.

[LSdemocrat]

4. I'd tend to agree. The tone described is why I rarely wade into GD anymore

In many ways discussion forums are a poor avenue to have reasoned political conversation. Threads that are "in your face" get bumped to the top because they bring quick responses from people on either side of the issue, while more thoughtful posts provoke fewer responses and fall off the front page.

[crispini]

6. Well, I will agree, but I think both sides are at fault here.

On one hand you have the more-granola-than-thou crowd, and on the other hand you have the people who completely refuse to even admit the possibility that there might possibly be something to the idea that, well, the planet's running out of resources and we should think about how the way we live our lives impacts the planet.

I'm reasonably pleased with the success of my thread, which has been 80% rational, but even that has gotten the annoying drive-bys too.

[unblock]

7. actually, it depends. different people are at different stages or levels

some people will simply NEVER respond to reasoned argument. they NEED to be hit over the head, mocked, insulted, belittled, teased, etc., to jolt them out of their limbaugh-freeper fantasy that adverse facts can be dismissed as liberal lie.

ONLY THEN, once you've got them doubting and questioning can you win them over with calm, cool facts and logic.

most people you meet don't need that initial kick in the nuts because their capable of some level of reason. but some people you have to reach with cruder methods.

and of course, i'm oversimplifying, there are many tactics for many different personalities and perspectives.

[stillcool]

9. i kind of agree...

seeds are planted all the time...and I think there is always someone ahead of me, who lightens my path, and someone behind me, for whom I hopefully do the same. I can't say the day my eyes first opened, but the need to know came from within. I don't believe anyone could have shown me truth, were I not ready and willing to look.

[Skidmore]

10. It doens't hurt to sting like a fly now and then just to get that

donkey moving a little faster.

[prolesunited]

17. Depends on who you are "stinging"

If it's the elected officials, I'm more open too it. If it's your fellow posters, I don't agree.

[Warren Stupidity]

28. Isn't that 'sting like a bee'??? nt.

[Individualist]

36. Sometimes that stung donkey will kick you right in the face

[mzteris]

12. my personal opinion is

that the more strident "haters" (of any candidate/cause) are just ringers, if you know what I mean. . .

btw - congrats on being secure enough to change!

:hi:

[brer cat]

14. I'm with you, prolesunited.

I totally avoid a lot of threads because of the judgmental nature of some of the posters. DU is a wonderful place, but some duers are just too full of their own opinions.

I'm very glad to see that you were able to find the knowledge and understanding that you needed to make lifestyle changes that benefit you. That's the important thing.

[peacetalksforall]

15. Well reasoned and presented. K & R.

[prolesunited]

25. Thank you.

Much appreciated

[havocmom]

16. Hard to influence people when you start by attacking them

Bravo, prolesunited. Excellent reminder that we win more when we win friends over then gently help them grow well.

When we raise youngsters, do we berate them for not doing everything well right off? No, we teach and lead by example. We gently guide and praise well for good progress. We do not expect mastery in a short period of time.

[prolesunited]

19. Kinda makes you wonder

if the more strident ones have children — or friends for that matter.

I tend to avoid people who are judgemental and critical, even when I'm not the focus of their attacks. Who knows when I will do something that doesn't meet with their approval and become the object of your scorn -- "Oh, no, you *like* Olive Garden. I don't think we can be friends." ;-)

[pitohui]

20. of course we berate them, we even grade them!

we tell them this will be on their permanent record if they don't catch on right away -- and if they're in the "wrong" class, it is, they didn't catch it in the first minute of first grade, and they're not "of our class," they're branded a slow learner forever

let's not kid ourselves, much of teaching is shame and threat based

i was afraid in school all the time, admittedly in those days public school teachers HIT kids and i witnessed this

but to say "we" gently guide is a joke, YOU as a good person may gently guide, most people do whatever it's the fashion of the day to do -- if it's to hit, they hit, if it's to humiliate and call names a la rush limbaugh, they humiliate and call names

there's a reason they call em sheeple

[prolesunited]

22. It seems like you really don't like people

and have very little faith in them. I guess I'm not that cynical.

But, I guess your post reinforces my point about negative methods not working effectively. They seem to have made you angry and bitter.

BTW, I'm not talking about the general population in the OP. I was addressing DU posters and what takes place in these forums. I hope you have higher regard for your fellow DUers.

[havocmom]

23. Yes, as a person, I do guide. Am a damned good teacher too.

AND I have changed many minds about a whole lotta political issues. I live in a VERY GOP area, and I have made a LOT of friends for DEMS, one person at a time, with understanding, empathy and some thought.

There's a reason too many DEMS are called elitists. Too many DEMS behave rather poorly toward those who don't agree 100% with them. If we want to be a force, we must consider more than just our own voices.

Sorry you have bad experiences with kids and schools. Sorrier you could not grasp the metaphor. I shall try harder next time.

[bvar22]

24. "Everyone has a plan....

Everyone has a plan, until you hit them in the mouth" ---Mike Tyson


Do we want to be a nation of Mike Tysons?
OTOH, few can argue with Mike's ability to get quick results.

[133724]

26. Republiconism is a MENTAL ILLNESS get over it...... n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

27. In general I agree with you.

However on a message board there are all sorts of things going on, including bitter partisan struggles, troll attacks, disinformation campaigns, etc. This is not exactly the place where the focus is on outreach to the broader community, it is instead a big unruly debate club.

[WinkyDink]

29. Money.

No, seriously? To change behaviors, as opposed to opinions? Rewards.

[Rosemary2205]

30. Well I STILL eat meat, shop at Walmart, and I drive a big vehicle.

I'm going to continue to bite dead animals, I'll continue to go into Walmart on the rare occasion, and I'm hardly going to get rid of my lift van. And my attitude is that anyone who wants to knee jerk judge my entire worth as a human being based on minimal facts like that can go suck it for all I care.

[prolesunited]

31. Yes, but how big is your house.

;-)

[porphyrian]

32. There is no single most-effective tactic for persuation.

There are a number of factors involved and a number of ways to approach any given situation. While people may act more receptive to polite behavior, they aren't necessarily being persuaded to change their position at all - they're simply returning the favor of being polite. It would seem from your personal experience to have been more effective for you, yes.

[prolesunited]

33. I agree that there is no single approach that will work on everyone

I'm speaking in generalities.

But, please tell me what type of person would best respond to being bullied?

[porphyrian]

35. That's another complex answer.

It depends, again, on a number of factors, including what predictable behaviors you can expect from someone you bully, and what part that plays in your attempt to persuade them to change their mind.

[welshTerrier2]

34. hugely important topic

i want to comment on the OP theme from a couple of different perspectives.

first, let me say that it is NOT necessarily the only purpose of posts on DU to influence those who might not yet agree. This is, persuasion is NOT the only objective of posting here. Some posts are intended to do exactly that; others, however, are intended to sharpen the key arguments of a given point of view and to provide them to others who already agree. It's important to note the difference between these objectives. For the purposes of persuasion, it might be necessary to show greater flexibility and tolerance of other positions; for the purpose of making the sharpest, most effective arguments, this is not necessarily the case. The goal is not stridency but rather the conveyance of self-confidence and power and the sharpness of the underlying arguments.

the issue about influencing the opinions of others, however, is perhaps the most critical task that political parties and their supporters can undertake. in fact, educating others about our values pokes holes in the short-sighted arguments of the so-called "pragmatists" who often say things like "what's the point of doing this or that or anything else if we can't win or it won't pass republican scrutiny or whatever". the point to these "winning is all that matters" Democrats is that we need to say what we believe in and make a convincing case EVEN if we are not YET able to implement our ideas. For example, take an issue like gay marriage. Some have argued that coming out in favor of gay marriage would hurt the party politically. Perhaps they're right. But how will things change if Democrats are too fearful to raise the issue? The process of education and persuasion begins with a dialog on what we believe in. This does not mean that Democrats have to get so far out ahead of the voters that they suffer politically. It means that an issue like gay marriage may take time to implement. But Democrats do need to start talking about it. They do need to make statements like "we believe that each and every citizen should have EQUAL RIGHTS". We start with a fundamental statement of our values. If asked, then, why not push for gay marriage legislation now, whether I agree with the policy or not, I think it's perfectly appropriate to acknowledge that this would be a significant change in the society and that Democrats are prepared to work toward their values as a goal. Not every value we hold and we teach has to be implemented immediately. That's where pragmatism can yield to the political realities. It cannot yield on the underlying values or the ultimate objectives or policies; it can yield only on the "tactics of implementation".

The point of the OP that "you catch more flies with honey" is probably true. Still, regardless of the package that ideas are presented in, some hostile and some nurturing, the ideas should be judged on their own merits. If someone makes a harsh and strident argument, it's fine to dismiss their style but it is always unwise to dismiss any argument for any reason beyond its merits.

Finally, who can argue with the idea that greater understanding and tolerance would enhance everyone's experience on DU. The advice is always an excellent reminder as emotions get heated up. Sometimes knowing it is tougher than implementing it.

[Warren Stupidity]

37. "that greater understanding and tolerance" there are exceptions.

Which is why we have the rules we have. Some posts are intolerable. It is not always the case that we need to waste our time trying to tolerate and understand the intolerable. What we do tolerate here is in fact a rather amazingly broad range of opinions, which is why I like DU.

[welshTerrier2]

38. heh ...

some posts are intolerable? really? on DU? can that be right?

actually, i couldn't agree with you more. we certainly do have a broad range of opinions around here. to think of a monolithic progressive community is absurd. the famous quote from the Chicago Conspiracy trial was "we couldn't agree on lunch" ...

i do wish, however, that DU somehow was more effective at developing a consensus platform at least on some issues ... we seem largely unable to build toward a consensus on anything. no, there are no expectations that we all should reach agreement but it might be useful if we could write sort of a DU platform on key issues that garnered broad support from the DU community. The idea would be for us to sort of negotiate like legislators until we reach some form of an accord.

I think DU would be more effective if we could actually "produce policy" instead of just being thousands and thousands of random ideas on any given subject that cannot be clearly conveyed to those who represent us in the Congress.

[Warren Stupidity]

39. Yes well this is just a message board.

I agree with you about the need for producing policy instead of a thousand different random ideas on any given topic, I'm not sure this is the right vehicle for doing that.

The admins tried something along that line a while back with their activist forum, it seems to have died a quiet death.

A lot of us are puzzling over the hows of moving a progressive agenda forward. It seems we are at another point where the kleptocracy has developed open cracks that we should be able to exploit to actually break their hold on the political system and effect real democratic (with a small d) change. It would be a shame if once again we were ineffective in exploiting this opening.

[welshTerrier2]

40. the right vehicle

the growth of the web as a community for political progressives amazes me more and more everyday. i remember arguing with some of our more conservative DU'ers about this. they just loved to point out that DU was not representative of Democrats overall and that we were essentially the irrelevant 1%.

almost every news show or talk show i watch now includes reactions from bloggers.

i don't know what the right forum is to build policy. i agree that DU has not found the answer to developing policy in an online community. at least not yet. it's really worth pursuing though. online is the new marketplace of ideas; it's the new public square; it's anyone who wants to stop by and stand on their soapbox.

the net is still very much in its infancy. it will eventually bring about the reforms we all want to see and it will overpower the corporate media agenda. it would all happen much sooner, though, if we could sort of get our collective act together.