Differences of Opinion .....

[H2O Man]

(Note: I posted this on DU a couple years ago. It might be of some value to DUers who are debating the issues of racism, sexism, and some of the other "-isms" that make life at times complex. Peace.)


Years ago, while I was employed in my first social work position, I had the opportunity to meet a group of people who were involved in the Alternatives To Violence program. Most of the group I got to know were Quakers, who did volunteer work in the jails and prisons in the New York-New Jersey area. I spent a significant amount of time with them, and found that their program helped me not only in my work in jails, and with domestic violence groups, but also in my own life.

I remember that some of the Quakers introduced this set of guidelines to the Haudenosaunee, or People of the Long House. It was funny, because the Clan Mothers said, "Oh yes, this is our system, too. It is part of the Power of the Good Mind." Some things were added as the program evolved, and so this is why I'm going to post two sections. Because I am human, I benefit from reading and re-reading these from time to time. I am pretty sure that a couple of the guidelines refer to me specifically, as an individual. Maybe others on DU will find some of this of interest. It is taken from my notes from some twenty years ago.

Anytime two (or more) people are involved in any form of relationship, there is bound to be differences of opinion. If certain behaviors occur while those differences are discussed, it can lead to understanding and respect; other behaviors always lead to unnecessary arguments and hostility, and even violence. The following guidelines are useful in facilitating a discussion of differences in a way that leads to a minimum of aggravation, and focuses on arriving at an understanding that differences of opinion are okay. When we recognize that different opinions should not be seen as a problem that needs to be resolved, we have taken a large step forward:

{1} Clarify as much as possible the nature of the differences.

{2} Do not bring in irrelevant material. This includes: do not bring up past mistakes; and do not cite other people's behavior. When irrelevant material is brought into a discussion by another person, do not try to address it. Either say, "That has nothing to do with this discussion," or ignore it and get back to the issue at hand.

{3}Do not be accusatory in any way.

{4} Do not label or call people names. The best examples are "that's stupid," or worse, "you're stupid."

{5} Do not attempt to blame the other person for anything.

{6} Be careful not to give in to the urge to be hostile, condescending, irritable, or sarcastic.

{7} If the discussion is "face-to-face," rather than on an internet site, try to speak in a medium tone. Speaking too softly or too loudly is disrespectful.

Part Two

{A} Seek to resolve differences by reaching common ground.

{B} Reach for something good in the person(s) you are having a conflict with.

{C} Listen before making any judgment.

{D} Base your position on truth, to the best of your ability.

{E}Be prepared to revise your position if it is wrong; be willing to admit when you are wrong.

{F} Risk being creative rather than focusing on being "right."

{G} Use surprise and humor.

{H} Be patient and persistent.

{I} Trust your inner self; you know if you are saying something to score "debating points" rather than reconcile differences.

{J} Build community based on honesty, respect, and hope for a better future.

The last point is that if you want to apologize to another person, it does not mean that you were wrong, or that you agree with the other person. It can simply mean that you do not wish to fight. This is equally true if someone makes an apology to you. I've spent the past two days thinking about these guidelines. For a variety of reasons, I have found myself straying from them in the past couple of months in some of my dealings with a couple members of my extended family. I recognize they are as important for me, as for any inmate I ever worked with. We are all "prisoners" from time to time.

[Lerkfish]

1. thanks, waterman

[H2O Man]

8. Thank you. n/t

[blondeatlast]

2. Beautiful and sensible. K&R. nt

[H2O Man]

9. It is possible

for us to have meaningful discussions -- and even debates -- on topics such as racism, sexism, etc, and advance all of our levels of understanding. Now that would be beautiful and sensible!

[Catherine Vincent]

3. Thank you for re-posting this, Patrick.

Is it okay if I call you Patrick? ;-)

[H2O Man]

5. Thank you.

And, yes, you can certainly call me, "Patrick."

[AuntPatsy]

4. A definate K&R beautifuly stated and needs to be read by as

many people as possible.

[H2O Man]

10. I am hoping

that a lot of DUers read this .... not because I posted it .... but because it is important.

[mmonk]

18. They will for both reasons.

[femmedem]

6. Thanks. I admit, I needed some reminding.

One thing Mr. Femmedem and I sometimes manage to do when we're disagreeing is to reflect back what the other person is saying until their emotional level comes down, or until they're finished. Only then do we begin saying our own side. Of course, that doesn't work as well on an internet message board. But I think it's something one can do silently, just to oneself, as a way of putting the brakes on one's own knee jerk responses.

Also, try and discern what the other person's need is, even if they're not expressing it directly. Respect? Autonomy? Often, once you figure out what the need is, they stop looking so much like an a@#hole and more like a vulnerable person who isn't very skilled at getting their needs met.

Of course, it's good to figure out what your own need really is, too. That's not always easy, at least for me.

Edit to add: Can you post this every day? ;-)

[H2O Man]

12. "knee jerk response"

I frequently do not stop at the knee-level, and am a jerk from head to toe. It's usually the hardest time for me to read these things, though obviously the most important. (smile)

[Me.]

7. Timely

K & R

[H2O Man]

17. Perhaps you have noticed

that there is a wee bit of hostility on DU:GD in recent hours?

[Forkboy]

11. Be careful not to give in to the urge to be hostile, condescending, irritable, or sarcastic.

But I am hostile,condescending,irritable and sarcastic.

I gotta be me! ;)

[H2O Man]

19. One of my co-workers

used to say that she was convinced that people should consider an insult from her as equal to a blessing from the pope.

[Forkboy]

21. LOL....I'm not that bad yet.

More like a blessing from Jeff,God of Biscuits.

[Patsy Stone]

24. Or

Simon, the god of hair-dos. :)

K&R, H2O Man... and thanks!

[Forkboy]

25. Cool sig pic? Check. Cool avatar? Check. Knowledge of Eddie Izzard? Check.

What are you doing this weekend? :D

[Patsy Stone]

26. This weekend

I'm going to see Tom Jones. But maybe next weekend, if my husband doesn't mind, we can hang out. :)

[yellerpup]

13. Wonderful advice

and recognizable across cultures as good ground rules for negotiation. K&R :kick:

[H2O Man]

20. Thank you. n/t

[Annces]

14. You can call me anything

just don't call me late for dinner.:evilgrin:


I had a dream the other night where I said to a gathering of my family "you bunch of honkys" and everybody laughed.

[intheflow]

15. I'm delighted to K&R this post.

This is common sense, and yet so few people live their lives in relationship with others in this framework. Societally, we teach people to listen only so long as they can make an argument against what someone else is saying. That only serves to keep humanity divided. Thanks, H2O Man. I've bookmarked this one for easy future reference.

[crispini]

16. Bookmarked. And K&R.

[Spazito]

22. A very timely reminder, thanks H20 Man

These are the very tenets of conflict resolution and they work equally well in the world of the internet and the real world.

An additional lesson I learned, and try to keep in mind in DU as well, was not to take anything personally, even if it is meant to be so, while in a dispute. It is the issue that is under discussion not the personalities of those involved in the discussions.

[katsy]

23. Thank you H2O

k/r

:hi:

[ms liberty]

27. K&R, and Bookmarked...

One of my great-grandmothers, my mother's mother's mother, was a Quaker; some of these guidelines remind me of my mother's lessons in good behavior. Excellent advice. Thanks for posting, H2OMan!

[rosesaylavee]

28. K & R

Great post as well as timely as usual! Thank you!

Another good resource for conflict management - NCBI or the National Coalition Building Institute. One of the solutions they recommend for managing conflict is asking the other person in a heated discussion why they feel that way and then actually listen to (or in the case here on DU 'read') the response. It's amazing how much anger is rooted in hurtful circumstances from an earlier period in a person's life. Sometimes just acknowledging that the other person's anger is understandable - not necessarily logical or something you agree with - is enough to diffuse the situation. More info here: http://www.ncbi.org

[H2O Man]

36. Good information.

Thanks for the link!

[mzmolly]

29. I think I need to read this daily.

We all need refreshers on occasion. Thank you. :hi:

[H2O Man]

35. Thank you.

I was speaking to a friend the other day. My friend said that right now, life in the USA is spinning too fast. That the momentum is building, and that as a result, more and more people are feeling a loss of control. That people need to step back, and spend more time not participating in the the current of maddness. I think that is true in ways that do not require people to leave civilization, and go to fast in the wilderness -- though I certainly do advocate that when possible. But it also means going slower in things as simple as debating emotionally charged issues on DU, or interacting with our co-workers. It certainly has to do with our relationships with our families.

[mzmolly]

46. "step back, and spend more time not participating in the the current of maddness."

Indeed! And, that fast in the woods sounds very appealing as well. ;)

[SarahB]

30. I'm convinced the key to positive relationships- any relationship-

is learning how to "fight" in a respectful way.

[Quantess]

31. I think you're right.

Personally, I think it's a skill that develops over time. It comes easier if it's a family trait, (if you were bought up that way), but it's never too late to change.

[H2O Man]

34. Right.

We all learn about "conflict resolution" as children. We learn from our family of origin as itty-bitty children. Then we learn from an institution when we are in grade school. Often the "skills" we learn become "second nature" to us, and that includes the healthy and unhealthy skills.

Yet we do not have to allow our unhealthy second natures to rule us. Quite often, when we sit down and really examine our "style" of doing conflicts, we find that we have had pretty much the same fight, over and over, with our spouse/SO. The question becomes why? Does it work for us? Probably not, if the same basic "fight" happens over and over.

People can learn to replace those behaviors that do not work, and that add unhappiness and stress to our lives (and the lives of our loved ones). We can make these new skills into our first nature.

[AikidoSoul]

52. This is all good in theory but what do you do when

people react to posts and refuse to see anything but what they are projecting from
their own minds?

The hostility of the discourse during those times is horrific. I've seen this
happen even when the OP and other participants are doing their best to present a
reasoned view and yet a few DUers will descend on the thread with what seems
to me to be an effort to shut down the thread.

The real sad thing is that these efforts often succeed. Is there no recourse to
this result?

I've been trained in conflict-resolution -- which fails me utterly at times
on DU. I've had to apologize for being a total ass when I give in to the
urge to get overtly pissed. Lately I've had to get away from DU just calm
down and reflect on my own inability and failure to communicate in ways that
maintain a constructive tone.

What irks me a lot is that being constructive too often does no good whatsoever
at DU. These thread shut-down events occur when people refuse to see another's
point of view, and refuse to engage long enough in an honest exchange to work
out differences.

So what do you do in these instances that is constructive? What do you do
when you're being bombed so to speak, by screaming attacks?

I ask you this sincerely because I'm at a loss. Really.

[H2O Man]

53. Good question.

I've discussed this in e-mails with a few other DUers. Besides the characters who come to DU to disrupt, and who end up "tomb-stoned," there are other DUers who I opt not to communicate with. They may be dedicated democrats, but their values are so different from my own that there is no benefit in conversation with them. There are other people who I do not like, and who have made it clear that they do not like me. So we don't speak. That's a natural thing on a discussion forum this large and diverse.

One of the things that I try to keep in mind is how Martin luther King, Jr. used a combination of the Christian concept of "love" and the 1953 study by Swedish theologian Anders Nygren, which was titled "Agape and Eros."

King also was a student of Paul Tillich's teachings, which holds that the New Testament's definition of "love" includes eros and agape.

Martin believed that "agape is a willingness to go to any length to restore community." His wonderful essay "An Experiment in Love" (1958) is found in the Harper & Row collection "A Testiment of Hope." I think that King recognized that there are times when individuals are better off not speaking.

[AikidoSoul]

55. "Not speaking" back to an offensive post or poster is a tough option

because silence is seen by many as a kind of affirmation. I do know that many DUers choose not to engage with some of the most virulent posts -- but I don't know whether it's a conscious decision to squash the potential flames in advance... or whether it's avoidance of conflict... or something in between.

There must be some way to do this without giving up the opportunity to register disagreement.

I appreciate your post very much. It's decent of you to give this some thought and to
help heal some wounds.

Most of all I appreciate having some tools to work with that will contribute to keeping the coversation and tone sane and civilized.

Lately I've thought of DU as a kind of microcosm of society. It reminds me of that old joke about the anthropologist who was the keynote speaker in an international conference of anthropologists. He stunned the audience when he stated, "I think we've finally discovered the link between Anthropoid ape and civilized man.... it's us!"

[H2O Man]

57. "Silence is

the true language of cosmic adoration." -- Gandhi

"A conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words." -- John Lennon


I think that, in the context of some of the rants on DU, it is possible that someone could mistake silence for agreement. In those cases, a simple "I respectfully disagree" might work. And in other cases, there might be brief ways to express disagreement, but not interest in further discussion. Still, I think that silence has a unique power.

[AikidoSoul]

59. Learning how to shut up will be the hardest thing of all to do ...for me n/t

[Raksha]

32. If you sent these guideline to the Bush White House,

you think you could get them to pay attention?

Dumb question...they don't do diplomacy and conflict resolution. It seems to be against their religion.

[H2O Man]

33. I think the folks

in the Bush administration would have difficulty with these guidelines, because of the severity of their sense of self-righteousness. However, I was more interested in presenting the guidelines to DUers, because of the nature of some of the hostile "debates" taking place in the past 36 hours. I think that it's as important that people here -- and I absolutely include myself -- consider these things when discussing and debating issues such as race, religion, privilege, sex, and the like, as it is with any other group on earth.

[Quantess]

56. Diplomacy and conflict resolution is for wusses and girls, and Nancy Pelosi.

Why talk when you can fight?

In case anybody couldn't tell, :sarcasm:

[Quakerfriend]

37. Very timely, H20Man and thank you for sharing your own

personal experiences with these teachings.

I might add some little known history about one of our most well known Quakers, William Penn (1644-1718):

At the age of 16 he was expelled from Oxford University for his religious beliefs. It turns out that he had been attending secret prayer meetings at the university re: Quakerism. After converting to the Quaker faith at age 23, he wrote his first book, "Sand Foundations Shaken", criticizing popular beliefs, for which he was sent to prison for two years. In the years that followed, he found himself in and out of prison several times for his 'radical' preaching about people's rights. In 1693, he wrote "The Present and Future Peace of Europe" in which he laid out a plan for how disputes between nations could be peacefully settled in order to avoid war. This piece of work by Penn is still used by the United Nations today. And, United Nations Day is celebrated on William Penn's' birthday in honor of his work.

Gotta love his extraordinary forward thinking and guts!

[H2O Man]

50. Thank you.

I think that William Penn's works are very important, perhaps especially at a time when we see conflicts between people who identify themselves as being of different groups.

[myrna minx]

38. Thank you for opening the windows to allow the fresh air of

civility to cleanse our home. I've wanted to over turn chairs and ransack my own office as a result of some things I have read here, but then I have to step back and realize how irrational I was being. Hurt and misunderstanding are very powerful feelings, and if allowed to fester, it can rip apart otherwise civil fellowships. While I cannot change others, I can change how I perceive them and how I react. Thank you for sharing the powerful medicine.

[H2O Man]

41. From time to time

my children will laugh at me, because I have what they view as a curious habit of arguing with the television set. If, for example, I happen to turn on one of the Fox evening shows, they leave before I say, "Did you hear that jackass?"

In the past 24 hours, I've heard people who take either the fire- or forgive-Imus stance on tv, who have said things I disagree with. I'm trying to make a point of listening closely. In two cases, people went on to change the focus from the ladies basketball team to their own experience. And so I am trying to take the time to appreciate that their experience results in their viewing the same set of circumstances differently than I do. It does not mean I am going to agree with them. But by recognizing that the Imus issue is just the visible surface of some strong emotions and even extreme opinions, I more fully understand the need to have more of the national discussions on these topics. And I am trying to carry that same thing over to the computer screen, because I'm reading some things I find troubling on DU. Racism, sexism, and hatred are troubling topics.

[myrna minx]

43. In our own corner of the cyber world, we can see

the tinderbox of feelings these topics expose. It is but a small symptom of what the world at large is like. While the sage ancient wisdom in the original post was primarily for face to face communication, it is rather interesting how in the case of fast and furious typing can be just as rife with misunderstanding, too. 'Tis an interesting world we all inhabit now. The written word was once something that was poured over and digested, but now it is a quick as a rapid phone or face to face conversation. I know I need to become a better listener, but in this new world, I need to be a better reader, and in turn, learn to express myself better.

These hurtful and troubling topics that have exploded in GD need to be discussed, but I do know for myself, whether consciously or unconsciously, I have misconstrued other's intentions due to a knee jerk reaction. While I have read some absolutely ghastly things here and I have no problem calling someone on the carpet for what I perceive as sexist, hateful or racist, but I need to take my time to digest what people are writing, rather then immediately reacting, which is something I have been known to do. :blush:

[BoneDaddy]

39. Wow

thanks man. I can usually have a civil conversation until I am attacked in some way, then I usually react back.

[bluescribbler]

40. Thank you

I read it because you posted it. I kick and recommend because it's immportant. :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[H2O Man]

42. Thank you. n/t

[maggiegault]

44. This Is So Cool.

It reminds me of a song that I have been listening to a lot lately.

Recommended.

Artist: Jack Johnson
Song: The Sharing Song

It's always more fun
To share with everyone
It's always more fun
To share with everyone
If you have two
Give one to your friend
If you have three
Give one to your friend and me
It's always more fun
To share with everyone
It's always more fun
To share with everyone
If you've got one
Here is something you can learn
You can still share
Just by taking turns
If you've got a ball
Bounce it to the gang
If there is a new kid
Invite him out to hang
If you've got one sandwich
Cut that thing in half
If you know a secret joke
Tell it and share a laugh
If you've got two drumsticks
Give one to your friend
Make one beautiful rhythm
Share a beat that never ends
And if you're feeling lonely
Share time with your mom
Share some milk and cookies
And sing the sharing song
It's always more fun
To share with everyone
It's always more fun
To share with everyone:hippie:

[H2O Man]

47. That is

a nice song. I'm not familiar with that Jack Johnson. I associate that name with the wonderful athlete who won the world heavyweight championship 99 years ago.

[Irishonly]

45. Thank You

I have printed your post. It's strange how much we forget common sense. Can you imagine how different the world would be if everyone followed such sage advice? I would like your permission for copy and forward these wise words.

[H2O Man]

48. Yes.

The wise words are from the Quakers, who shared them freely.

[Patiod]

49. On apologizing

My S.O. came up with a phrase that I love, which is "I'm sorry we fought".

He'll add "...and I'm sorry it was your fault" and laugh, but it has brought us together after a lot of arguments.

Thanks for these and thanks also for reminding me of the value of Quakerism, as I sometimes go crazy with the endless talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk and forget what attracted me to it as a world view in the first place..

[WilliamPitt]

51. Kick for a cure to DU chaos.

[benEzra]

54. Thank you, that is excellent. (n/t)

[Cameron27]

58. Nicely said! k&r

"You always...You never" (my personal favs)