There are "death panels."

[Are_grits_groceries]

<snip>
And despite all of this, you appear blithely unaware that the free market healthcare system we have now does, indeed, have “death panels.” I’ve been part of a death panel conversation. I know about death panels.

You have no idea what it’s like to be called into a sterile conference room with a hospital administrator you’ve never met before and be told that your mother’s insurance policy will only pay for 30 days in ICU. You can't imagine what it's like to be advised that you need to “make some decisions,” like whether your mother should be released “HTD” which is hospital parlance for “home to die,” or if you want to pay out of pocket to keep her in the ICU another week. And when you ask how much that would cost you are given a number so impossibly large that you realize there really are no decisions to make. The decision has been made for you. "Living will" or no, it doesn't matter. The bank account and the insurance policy have trumped any legal document.

If this isn’t a “death panel” I don’t know what is.

So don’t talk to me about “death panels” you heartless, cruel, greedy sons of bitches, who are only too happy to keep the profits rolling in to the big insurance companies while you spout your mealy-mouthed bumper sticker slogans about the evils of socialism. You don't even know what socialism is. You don't know what government healthcare is. You have no fucking clue about anything except that you lost the last election and you're pissed off.
<snip>
http://sobeale.blogspot.com/

People are so stupid that they don't even really see what the insurance companies are doing.

[livetohike]

1. Thanks for posting this. For those of us who have been in these

situations with a loved one (in my case my Dad). The present cruel reality needs to be made known. When we asked my Dad's Oncologist what we should do, she said "The cost of a nursing home will clean you out."

[demodonkey]

46. Yes and even if you get into one, many nursing homes are hell holes...

...understaffed by underpaid help because the Admins and CEOs have to get their stock options. Google what the CEO of ManorCare was paid when the Carlyle Group (!!) bought them up.

Doctors and social workers will LIE to protect a hospital or nursing home's bottom line; I have actually seen this happen and sadly I no long trust 99% of MEDICAL professionals. For too many of them it's all about MONEY and what's in it for THEM, not about making people well or even helping them cope with illness.

The whole damn system is rotten to its core.

[lib_wit_it]

2. Don't call them stupid! Bill Maher got in lots of trouble for that!

Thank you , Bill Maher!

And my sympathies to the OP and all who have been through such misery.

[beac]

4. I wonder if that's why it took do long for the vids of his 8/7 show to appear on YouTube?

All the ones I could find yesterday had been deleted at the request of HBO.

I really galls me how these people can dish it out, but can't take it. They listen to Rush spew venom all day long, but the minute a liberal says something mildly critical, they start wailing like angry toddlers.

[DesertRat]

10. No, it's because HBO owns the rights to his Maher's shows

They do have some video on the HBO website.

Comedy Central pulls their shows (like Colbert and Daily Show) off of You Tube too.

[beac]

56. Actually, HBO has allowed all of Real Time's episodes to be posted on YouTube.

Last Friday's finally showed up around mid-day Sunday, but since the show is usually available first thing Saturday morning, it was an odd delay.

I don't know why HBO doesn't protect the content of Real Time like it does its other shows, but it seems to have a different policy for it. :shrug:

[murray hill farm]

3. I agree with your cat.

"MEH"....and you, that people are sooooooo unbelievably stupid, that they do not see what the insurance companies are doing.

[debunkthelies]

37. Me 2

LOL

[Odin2005]

5. K&R

[1handclapn]

6. if someone was terminally ill, with no hope of recovery, they need to be informed. in that case it

is not a death panel it is a medical advisory board, they have been around a long time. there is a point where Hospice care is the only humane option to medical care... you didn't provide any details of your situation, i am sorry that happened, but being a bit cynical and suspicious ..i cant help but believe there is an agenda here about subject and the way it was presented amid the lies and distortions of the Reich Wingers. those lies are killing people. you entertained that distortion.. turning a medical panel into a death squad. without the details. i am not saying that the insurance companys arent psychotic rat bastards, thats a given. that is why they want to change the industry. about 60,000 people die every day because they have no insurance, ans cant afford to even pay for the illusion of having it

i just went through a year of needless surgery and therapy for over a year so that they could experiment on me with the insurance company's dime.

we need to wake up to the fact that people die when they get certain conditions. the day has passed for the doctors to quit doing useless hopeless procedures just to keep from being sued. basically they told Hillery as First Lady that her medical plan wouldn't fly till the Catastrophic costs of Tobacco, alcohol and other conditions caused by habits of abuse were under control. it would simply be subsidizing the Tobacco industry to keep patching up their victims so they could continue being a burden. then the smoking lawsuits began..

1200 smokers die everyday of smoking related complications..thats 24 people in every state, and the statistics are Conservative. 1080 of those dead were addicted as children, 540 were addicted 12 years old or YOUNGER. the industry must addict as many children every year to replace the ones they kill with a known deadly drug many times more addictive than Heroin. people rarely start smoking after 18-early 20's because their money is already allocated to necessities like food/housing/getting layed. besides by that time their brains have physically developed enough to make reasonably rational decisions based on facts, unlike children. tobacco should be the only evidence necessary to prove corporate campaign contributions are nothing but illegal bribes. alcohol was th 4th major health hazard in this country, i haven't checked lately.. been sober 10 years. these problems can only be cures through education in the schools.. yea, like that can ever happen.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[1handclapn]

8. yea, that is what i thought... thanks for the proof

[Are_grits_groceries]

9. "we need to wake up to the fact that people die when they get certain conditions"

Who decides? You apparently trust these "medical advisory boards" to have your twee little interests at heart. They don't.

It's all about the Benjamins. You can give them every reason backed up by all the research in the world on why a procedure should be done to save a life. They will hold tight to that contract and refuse it even if God said it would work.

And please, let's just list those conditions you speak of when we should just let people die. I don't have that list yet.

[Liberty Belle]

48. Doctors are wrong all the time! A friend lived 12 years after a doc gave her 30 days.

With a newborn son, she was told she had an inoperable brain tumor. Her husband was a pharmaceutical salesman who pulled strings (and made a $10 K donation to a hospital) to get her into an experimental program. The treatment completely eliminated her tumor.

[madmax]

63. Good Lord!

I'm happy that her husband was able to afford the 10k and she lived for another 12 years.

It's a very sad commentary on our health care system for those who don't have the money.

[Javaman]

64. So then, stop going to see a doctor when you are sick. Does that work for you?

:eyes:

[bjobotts]

38. He's not calling it a "death panel" but says it could be considered as such by Palin's definition

[bjobotts]

39. Your tirade was completely inappropriate for what his comment said.

[bjobotts]

40. Living wills are not death panels.Ins reps refusing continued coverage is reality

[bjobotts]

41. Palin is an ignorant fool whose ego refuses to acknowlege her limitations

[bjobotts]

Her commnets are viscious, vile and vindictive lies to distort facts and empower emotions

[bjobotts]

43. WE are the government but she wants to demonize it because it's the democrats in power.

[bjobotts]

44. Reganomics depends on "Gov. is the problem" and that has destroyed our economy with deregulation

Enron anybody. Wall street, AIG, Goldman-Sachs...the list is huge. And now the media belongs to 5 corporations who spout corporate propaganda daily. Gov is the only entity large enough to deal with these mega billionaire corporations with republican as watchdogs and protectors of their holdings. Time for change...and it begins with HC ins reform because our very lives depend on it.

[followthemoney]

12. Do not confuse "name" with "function". nt

[AllyCat]

55. You are right about much of this, but OP said "insurance only paid 30 days"

His mother was pulled out of the hospital because insurance was no longer willing to pay and he/she (nor could 99.9% of us) pay for it. It had little to do with putting a patch on the problem.

I agree with the rest of your statements though. Glad to hear you are sober!

[Maru Kitteh]

11. K&R - Thanks for posting this.

[1handclapn]

13. may i ask what her medical condition was, was it hopelessly terminal.? or just a refusal to

continue treatment that would saved her life.. that is the key to this discussion. i have stated that and recieved no responce to that.

[Are_grits_groceries]

14. Read the entire article at the site.

The condition wasn't mentioned. It is your contention that that is the key to this discussion. The key is an insurance company with a "medical advisory panel" that decides what happens to someone. There is no 3rd party independent group that looks at things.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vickers]

20. "you are just a dupe of some Reich Wing bullshit"

Now *that's* fucking rich.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vickers]

23. Your reading comprehension is pretty funny. You *honestly* think the OP's

quoted section is a conservative stance?

Dude, either you're dumber than a laundry basket filled with dryer sheets, or you're being pathologically obtuse.

At any rate, welcome to DU yadda yadda yadda...

[quakerboy]

36. The point is that It didnt matter what the "facts" were

Whether it was a hangnail gone bad or the worst case of cancer man has ever seen, with its own name and the ability to jump to other people even through latex gloves, The fact is that a panel of people paid by the insurance company made the decision, based on $. Not on medical necesity, money.

You are the only one here spewing right wing propaganda. And accusing others of it right out of the gate will not endear you to anyone, nor prolong what, judging from your input in this thread, will be a very short stay.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

15. Ulcerative Colitis survivor here --- I would rec this 1000 times if I could.

I had Ulcerative Colitis as a child, my parents had been smart enough to have catastrophhic insurance--lucky it existed back then.

I was sick for 13 years (and when I say sick, I mean sick) until nearly dying finally forced the issue and it was time for emergency surgery.

The story is long and nasty, but I'm in great shape now over 30 years later.

But if it were today?

I don't imagine dying of a ruptured intestine would be pleasant.

[Fire1]

16. You are absolutely correct. n/t

[Lithos]

17. K&R

...

[TexasObserver]

19. Indeed. They don't want government between you and your insurance company.

They say they want to keep government from being between you and your doctor, but we already have some insurance cubicle dweller between us and our doctors. Health care is being run by insurance companies.

[HughMoran]

21. Yep, I'd inform the administrator of a thing or two..

They better reform healthcare because if I'm ever put into a postion like this, the outcome won't be good.

[Wapsie B]

24. There are death panels now. We call them insurance companies.

[Barack_America]

25. Yup. And if you think it's any fun being on the other side of that decision...

...having to deny patients care because of some fucking cold-hearted insurance representative and their fucking "bottom line", you'd be wrong.

[Jack Rabbit]

26. Under private insurance

We have rationed medical care, even when the issue is life and death. The private insurance company will cut off care without recourse or appeal.

At least if this were government policy, it becomes a political issue and I can vote out my congresscritter if I don't like the way it's run.

[Lagomorph]

27. As it stands, right now...

we're ALL on the death list.

[iris27]

28. My uninsured uncle died at forty-fucking-six thanks to the decision of a little sit-down

like this one.

Came into the ER with chest pain and other symptoms...they did an emergency mitral valve replacement. However, post-op care was as slow and lax as could be since they knew he wouldn't be able to pay - he kept mysteriously losing blood and was strangely out of it (almost Alzheimer's-like), even after being moved to the step-down floor. They discharged him to a Medicaid-accepting nursing home while still in this condition and got my mom started to fill out his Medicaid application. While he was still losing blood for no explainable reason, and still mistaking me and my partner for his sister and brother-in-law, they kicked him out of the hospital. They called us all into a little room and basically said they weren't treating him for anything else and he was no longer in "an acute care situation". Oh, and the surgeon said we should all be kissing his feet - literal quote! - for having even done the op in the first place.

My uncle developed an infection in the nursing home after being there 2 days and went back to the hospital...he died of sepsis before the week was out.

His death is my primary motivating factor for wanting healthcare reform, because I know he would still be alive today if he'd had insurance.

[Douglas Carpenter]

29. that is quite correct - anyone familiar with insurance companies and hospitals already knows this

[Vila Restal]

30. Evils of HMO's

I don't think socialized healthcare is the answer, but also I hate HMO's and greedy insurance companies. The reason insurance companies can get away with not paying for serious illnesses is because since 1913 we haven't been under a true free market capitalist system. We have been, in fact under a corporatist system, where insurance companies lobby the govt. for favors and monopolistic powers. If a true free market system was allowed, it would drive down cost and provide even better care and innovation. Don't let the establishment tell you that capitalism is evil and caused the economy to crash and large number of uninsured people. Large banks rigging the money supply, speculating and rigging the stock market is not capitalism, it's just plain piracy. It is time to unleash true freedom in this country. Remember that government is suppose to serve the people, not vice versa.

[ihavenobias]

32. (Sigh) I'm going to quote myself to respond to you.

No one is actually pushing for "socialized medicine". How would giving people a choice to opt in to a public plan possibly be described as "government taking over health care"?

That point is so obvious that I shouldn't have to make it. Apparently a less obvious point is that the Single Payer system many progressives (myself included) favor is also not "socialized medicine". Very few countries have actual "socialized medicine" which would be accurately described as the government not only providing the insurance, but also running the hospitals, i.e. hiring and firing the doctors and nurses, purchasing the equipment, etc.

If someone insists on trying to fear monger with the word socialism, they could at least try to be a little accurate. The Single Payer system most progressives want could possibly be described as "Socialized Insurance". And even in that case it would likely just mean a public plan that would provide basic coverage for all Americans. If you wanted something special like a private room, experimental treatments, etc., the private insurance companies would still be around to provide coverage for those extra services.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/ihavenobias/22

[JHB]

52. We didn't live under a "true free market" in 1913 either, nor at any other time in history

A "true free market" is a theoretical construct, and "if a true free market system was allowed" it would come crashing down the same way any other rigid system does: by ignoring factors that don't mesh with its ideology until they become too big and bring the whole thing crashing down.

[me b zola]

60. So, how would you deliver medical care to our veterans?

Would you kill the medicare program?

[noiretextatique]

68. some things, like healthcare, should not be for profit

for the obvious reasons. some corporation's bottom line should not be the driving force in making healhcare choices and decisions for you.

[PA Democrat]

74. Oh yes, the infamous "invisible hand of the free market"

I'm not sure just what you mean by a "true free market system" or "true freedom" but people who use that terminology generally believe that there should be NO regulation of corporations. And that the free market is the answer to every problem faced by man.

Insufficiently regulated capitalism will always end badly as history has shown. Even Greenspan finally admitted that he was wrong to assume that corporations would self-police themselves, after advocating for less government regulation for decades.

And contrary to what the free marketeers would have us believe, there have been MANY very important medical and technological advances which occurred not because of the free market but because of the government. Technology including computers, semiconductors, the internet, global positions systems, life saving drugs, vaccines, prosthetic limbs, lasers used in medicine have all been significantly advanced by government involvement, not the free market alone.

[napoleon_in_rags]

31. Off to the realm of triple digit greatest posts with you.

100th rec

[RB TexLa]

33. And people questioned me when I posted that my advance directive has those decisions

made by a hospital administrator. Not by the doctor and not by anyone in my family. My family will never have to attend such, they will only be informed of the decisions made by whoever is administrating whatever place I am dying in.

[mntleo2]

34. You got that right ...many Americans ARE stupid .

...Bill Mahr is right and it is downright pathetic.

I cannot tell you how many times i have sat in rooms not only with the medical people, but with managements who spout off the most ridiculous crap and everyone sits there nodding and agreeing as if what is being said is most profound thing in the world. Meanwhile I am sitting there thinking to myself, "You people are friggin' NUTS!" If I said something (and have tried) then I am the one treated as if I am ready for the loony bin. When I was younger I thought I was wrong and that maybe I was just letting an "opinion" rule me or something, but nowdays I am realizing I wasn't wrong, I just did not trust what my gut and my senses told me was the most logical thing.

Take it from an old fart. Listen to your gut. You are very correct about this idiotc thinking that our fellow idiot Americans buy into that is just palin stooooopid. Since I have hit my 50s and now almost 60s, it taught me what it means by "the tyranny of the majority" and how to listen to my heart "that place" in my gut tells me something is just plain loony. And Hon, thouh you probably already know it, don't let any doubt try to corrupt what your heart tells you is true. You ARE hearing things right, those people are loony and they are cold hearted bastards. All I've gotta tell you is for me, it is a good thing I believe in karma because I know they hae their own private flaming hells waiting for them where THEY will have to live through that themselves. Seen it too many times you won't have to do a thing. Just wait and watch and know. It is comin' for them ...

Cat In Seattle

[rhymeandreason]

35. It is triage according to financial resources rather than patient needs

with the hospital accountants making decisions about patient treatment. It is one of the primary reasons why we need serious reform.

[proud patriot]

42. Thanks I'll be using this in my battles on facebook polls

like the one in my sigline

[puebloknot]

45. K&R Needs to be said and said again and again! Thanks! nt

[Seldona]

47. Great op.

I went through the same conversation with my father. One doctor even asked me in a condescending tone, "You DO know your father is going to die, right?"

[DeeDeeNY]

49. K & R

[Ian David]

50. See also: The Texas Futile Care Law

See also: The Texas Futile Care Law
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8575222

[malaise]

51. An excellent post

K & R

[Union Yes]

53. K&R

[dorkulon]

54. Oh, they're real all right...

[FourScore]

57. k/r nt

[tridim]

58. Kick for some Thom Hartmann love.

[Sancho]

59. This post was just mentioned on KO!

:dem:

[classof56]

61. Thom Hartmann just reffed and read this on his show.

Mentioned OP specifically. Way to go--thanks for posting!

Tired Old Cynic

[Are_grits_groceries]

66. Meh Kitteh has her 15 minutes of fame. She says

meh. It's all in a day's work.

[DevonRex]

62. K&R

[madmax]

65. K & R n/t

[lsewpershad]

67. So

sad that so many americans are so stupid that they would fight against their own interest for the benefit of the corporations.

[barbtries]

69. this needs a much wider audience

the point is so well made.

[Initech]

70. We shouldn't allow these idiots to even participate in the health care debate.

And by idiots I mean the town hall disruptors.

[Jkid]

71. It's really amazing that they say that there are "death panels" in the health "reform" bill

But they don't realize that we already have death panels: the private health insurance industry. But they don't seem to care because they can either afford the best health insurance money can buy, or *gasp* they don't have any!

[TrogL]

72. People are so stupid they don't know they're stupid

Authoritarian followers are so brain-dead they prefer others to do their "thinking" for them.

[mnhtnbb]

75. It's called ignorant and proud of it.

[LeftishBrit]

73. Excellent point!

[Stephanie]

76. kick

[JTFrog]

77. K&R n/t