For that matter, can we talk about the word "HO?"

[Sparkly]

The question that's been going through my mind lately has to do with the word "ho." As long as we're analyzing this sudden acknowledgment that sexism and racism are pervasive, how about the derivations and implications of "ho" as a slur?

Is it literally the same as "whore?" And is "whore" really another word for "prostitute?" OR are there different shades of meaning between "ho," "whore," and "prostitute?"

(And what about "slut?" And "skanky?" Is every slut skanky? Does "skanky" really have to do with hygiene, or something else?)

Where do "Woman who engages in sexual activity for money" and "Woman unworthy of respect" overlap or separate?

In other words, was Imus (for example) literally accusing the Rutgers student athletes of having sex for money? If not, how is it that "ho," from "whore," has become a common derogatory term for women? If the stigma of prostitution were eliminated, would such slurs still exist?

(Personally, I think calling people like Ann Coulter "whores" is insulting to honest sex workers. And I hope a day comes when words that allude to women's sexuality are no longer considered pejoratives.)

Your thoughts?

[Breeze54]

1. -------->

[TahitiNut]

8. (LOL!!!)

:rofl: Funny!

[Warpy]

2. Now, Sparkly, you know full well that

for juvenile males, any woman who would let a man do that to her has fallen down from that madonna pedestal. Instead of being pure and unattainable, the stuff of dreams, only, she is sullied and common and worthy of absolutely no respect at all. She has, in fact, become a slut, skank, ho merely by having experienced sex.

Some males don't grow out of it.

[Uncle Joe]

18. What does a woman call a man if he has sex with many partners?

I can't think of any term for this.

I'm just speculating here, but I believe it's because men in general have a stronger competitive instinct or at least society has conditioned us to be so. Subconsciously, men want to be first in everything and if a woman has been with someone else before him, it's like Aesop's Fable of the Fox and the grapes, the man can never be first and so the grapes must be sour.

[Igel]

27. You're not thinking hard enough.

Mostly, they're positive. Stud. Stallion.

Some are negative, and decidedly old-fashioned sounding. Gigolo. Skirt-chaser.

[Uncle Joe]

31. Maybe it's because, I don't hear those terms

used to denigrate someone who is not liked for political, journalistic, or gender reasons.

I've been guilty of this, during the run up to the coup of 2000, when the mass corporate media continued to trash and slander Al Gore for the better part of two years, every other word out of my mouth describing the pundits was whore. When I first came to D.U. it evolved to presstitutes, now I just call them the mass corporate media, mainstream sounds way too misleading.

My point is, there are no equivalent words on the male side used in a negative fashion with such frequency in our society, that I'm aware of.

[SoCalDem]

34. A single guy or an unfaithful husband?

:evilgrin:

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

36. I belive the term is 'man whore'.

[doc03]

3. Heard this morning

Santa has to drop his HO HO HO this year and Hostess has to rename their HO HOs snack cakes.

[EstimatedProphet]

4. And Idaho is changing its name to Iamnot

To paraphrase another lousy joke

[TahitiNut]

9. ... and all the residents are moving to VIRGINia??

:rofl:

Virginia ... the state named for a (purportedly) intact 'royal' hymen. Go figure. :eyes:

... and then there're the islands in the Carribean.

[Bucky]

10. I once saw a kid grafitti a license plate to read

VAGINIA IS FOR LOVERS

The little brat still can't spell, but he gets points for trying.

[TahitiNut]

That motto has absolutely slayed me since its inception. Talk about cognitive dissonance.

I can't even imagine what Sir Walter Raleigh would have to say about it.

:rofl: :rofl:

[Bucky]

16. And let's not even mention PocaHOntas.

okay, that was lame

[aquart]

7. Guess that distraction from the issue is considered a joke?

Wonder how many times we're going to be treated to all that humor.

[Bucky]

11. I'm offended by the phrase HOly Bible

wHOly offended in fact

[saltpoint]

5. Intent matters.

If social workers convene a meeting on how to help sex workers, it wouldn't be unusual for one of them to say, "I wish the society at large would see them as human beings and not as whores."

For a male high schooler to call a female classmate "a ho" or "a whore" is harrassment, is it not? Its intent is to belittle, to marginalize, to reduce. Its intent is to stress that the young woman is not worthy of any greater consideration than as a possible momentary sexual object, and should be discarded accordingly.

And both the adult social worker and the high school kid know the difference.

[Annces]

6. I think calling someone a whore

is a way to put a woman in a taboo category. Like the way some puritans would call a woman a witch. People use it to take away a woman's own power. Women do it to other women too, an easy way to vent your own animus onto someone you don't like or are threatened by.

[BringEmOn]

12. Tiny Bubbles....

Don Ho

[PsN2Wind]

17. Or Don's mother

Honey Ho. There's a name we don't want to comment on.

[Madspirit]

13. My Friends

I have had many friends who are sex workers...hookers, strippers, pole dancers...and they don't like the term at all as an insult. After all, "John" is not exactly an insult and it does take two...or more...to tango. Women who work in these fields deserve the same respect as anyone else. They deserve the same respect their customers get. Especially since this field of work would not even exist if there wasn't a demand for it. A room full of men, watching a woman pole dance and then go out and use the derogatory terms for her?! What a bunch of asswipes.

...and the prude factor...the judgment that these women are low even though they truly have been around since the beginning of time ergo there must be a market. The same with slut, skanky, etc. They all point to the double standard. Men can do these same things without any judgment.
Lee

[TahitiNut]

19. "Men can do these same things without any judgment"?

No, they can't. Perhaps a LOT less, but definitely not "without any." At the same time, there's no female word that's equivalent to "cuckold." Language and its use isn't 'just' - it's merely a reflection of long-standing connotations.

I can say with near certainty that the overwhelming majority of people, with virtually no information whatsoever, are far more inclined to regard the ex-husband as more at fault in a divorce than the ex-wife. Even in cases of her adultery, folks have this noxious inclination to think "He" didn't keep Her "satisfied." Believe it. Take it to the bank. Life's not fair.

[Madspirit]

20. Women

Women are degraded for being sexually active a LOT more than men are. Ask a High School boy. It's Madonna or Whore.
The ex-husband certainly isn't always more at fault but more often, I would wager...Trade in that 40 for two 20s.... She supported me through school, now I get the younger model, etc. Women may do all those things too BUT if you check the stats, the numbers barely compare.
Lee

[TahitiNut]

21. It's not a fucking competition! Wrong is wrong, no matter what.

The idea that unjust treatment can be ignored in the context of other unjust treatment is sheer codependent thinking. The ethical bankruptcy of such 'logic' is what leads to an ethical sewer system.

Keeerist! How many murders occur "because (s)he deserved it"??? This idea that wrongful treatment is somehow OK just because someone was themselves treated wrongfully ... particularly by some bullshit definition of 'class' or 'group' ... is nothing but an apologetic for more and more inhumane and unjust treatment.

See ...
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/378
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/377

[Madspirit]

22. I didn't say

I didn't say it isn't important when it's the other way. The numbers do BARELY compare. That is important. You cannot say sexism doesn't matter or doesn't play into this.

Stop yelling at me. We are usually on the same exact side. I didn't yell at you, did I? (...and I don't mean caps, I mean tone...)
Lee

[TahitiNut]

25. Again ... it's impossible to deal with such societal issues ...

... when active and fair-minded people are arguing about which of them are the greater victim-by-association (due to some fallacy of division 'membership' in a group). At the same time, the denial of the existence of wrongs is abhorrent.

You say women are, by far, more demeaned by accusations of being sexually active. While that's undeniably true, it ignores the fact that young males are demeaned and called "pansies" and other far more severe sexist and homophobic epithets if they're sexually inactive! (I can't even count the times I've heard "Fuck her, buddy! I did!" You think that's one-sided?) Within a social context that places a far greater burden and expectation that males be "team players" and "one of the boys," we get a compounding of the abuses. These perversions don't exist in isolation. The mere epithets of "pussy" and "queer" and "pansy" themselves not only emotionally abuse the young male, they also indoctrinate that young male in bigotry ... bigotry against those people who're associated with such epithets. Unless we acknowledge and deal with these problems in a COMPREHENSIVE fashion, instead of some codependent and adolescent "Johnny did it first, mommy!" ... then we'll NEVER overcome this social sewage.

It's really appalling to me that when folks on DU try to argue for more comprehensive and affirmative approaches to such societal problems, they get smeared and demeaned by the forum vigilantes. (No! I'm not making ANY personal implication here.) We've GOT to deal with the SOLUTION and not stay fixed on the codependent assignation of blame-by-association. If we don't, we're ALL fucked.

[loyalsister]

23. When did "boys will be boys"

lose it's convention?
It is quite a common admission even when someone is finding extreme fault and disgust.

[Madspirit]

24. "boys will be boys"

Exactly. Thank-you.
Lee

[TahitiNut]

26. Probably about the same time as "women have needs" lost its.

D'ya think? (Men don't have "needs" - we have appetites. Yeah. Riiight.) :puke:

Again - since when does TWO wrongs make a right? This is nothing bu codependent crap.

My post responded to the key words of "without any" - hyperbole beyond reason and sanity.

[loyalsister]

29. Okay

I suppose a we could find a timeline comparison but, I am not interested in chasing down a red herring.

[Madspirit]

30. Well

I do think it's extremely important and not victim mentality...a RW term...to recognize the MOST oppressed members of society.

I do not judge Johns harshly either. I just HATE the double standard. I used to judge Johns harshly until I actually had some close friends who are hookers and I met some Johns. Most men who frequent prositutes are just lonely men. Nothing more, nothing less. Still, they walk out the door of the establisment, they are still Men. The women walk out the door and they've lost all identity except...Ho. Double standards have to be dealt with. Racism, sexism, homophobia...butt ugly stuff.
Lee

[loyalsister]

32. Personally I don't judge either

I think of it as the oldest profession and a fact of life.

I find the language and generalities attached to be a distraction.

But I do think that in general honesty with regard to languaguage used in terms of application and results is important.

Maybe you and I are on on the same page or close.

[TahitiNut]

33. Perhaps you forget Jeff Gannon (Guckert)?

Yes, you and I are far, far more often in agreement than not, Madspirit. I'm not denying that - and I deeply respect and appreciate it.

HOWEVER ... you're making comparisons of sellers and buyers ... not male seller vs. female seller. I submit that a male prostitute is regarded AT LEAST as demeaningly as a female prostitute. Good heavens! DU has had more than one feeding frenzy about Guckert - and it's sure not merely due to the right-wing affiliation.

Furthermore, we have the current story about the female madam/pimp with the client list ... and DU sure as hell isn't as interested in raking HER over the coals as it is her clients.

Still ... and this MUST be emphasized, I believe ... we don't work together to IMPROVE until we shed the bullshit codependent blame-shifting and guilt-wallowing.

It's far too easy to compare our "insides" to others' "outsides" and come to unwarranted conclusions - conclusions that really serve no productive purpose. That's why the oath "I promise not to compare my insides to your outsides" yields such personal growth opportunities.

[Madspirit]

37. I've never understood

I've never understood the frenzy about client lists. I've known a lot of hookers and I've known a lot of men who have frequented them. I have no judgment either way. Adults. Censensual.
Lee

[uppityperson]

14. Booger face. Nah nah nah nah boo boo. Depends on how it is used.

Most any word can be used in different manners, but there are some that have been used so offensively, or so negatively, that, culturally, they are verboten, taboo, discouraged from most every usage except when EVERYONE involved knows it is all for fun and games, and even then it is used primarily to show you too can use bad words, giggle giggle (I, like, commas).

Hence "booger face" and "nah nah nah nah boo boo". And "ho", "bitch", "n*", etc.

[Bucky]

15. I never use any word in that category except as it's literally meant.

And I don't use the word "whore" at all, not even for people who've sold out their values for a paycheck.
I reserve the right to use "whore" and "bitch" as verbs, but never, ever use them as nouns. I won't even say "whorehouse". Words like "brothel," "house of ill-repute," "bordello," and "local Republican headquarters" are both more accurate and less offensive.

[SarahB]

28. Our country is screwed up in regard to their sexual attitudes, especially about women. nt

[TahitiNut]

35. Is it OK to call Jeff Gannon a "bald-headed ho'"??

:evilgrin:


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