The tragdey @ V. Tech happens daily in Iraq.

[Botany]

#1 Thoughts and prayers to all students, faculty, staff, friends, and families
hit by those awful acts in Blacksburg, VA today. If I knew a way to take the pain away
I would in a heartbeat.

Now think what it is like in Iraq? Killings like what happened in western VA happen
daily in Iraq thanx to bush's mistake that was based on lies. And yet that unelected
idiot keeps going on and on about seeing the "victory" and the "good progress" being made
because of the "hard work and sacrifices of our troops on the ground."

Time for the Congress Republicans & Dems to stand up and get our troops out now.

[malaise]

1. I did think of the number of Iraqi college students

and other citizens who are slaughtered daily without MSM's coverage. That said this is a horrible tragedy.

[Ganja Ninja]

2. This many people are killed before breakfast in Iraq. n/t

[John Q. Citizen]

3. Yep. Just as a comparison to the scope, I divided 4 years into

600,000 dead in Iraq, and got over 400 a day average.

Iraq has 25 million people, or did before we invaded.

[joshcryer]

4. You all disgust me. This sort of thing happens *everywhere*.

Regularly. Daily. Millions die from simply not having clean drinking water. Millions die from warlord groups going and cutting childrens heads off.

Yet everyone is obsessed about Iraq. How about Ethiopia? How about Somalia? How about Sudan? Lest we forget China, North Korea, and the plethora of other African and South American countries where killings happen daily, regularly, hourly.

40k people die in car accidents a year. Millions die from the common cold in the third world. The flu kills tens of millions.

Yet we focus on Iraq. Yet we attempt to trivialize deaths in our country when it comes to Iraq.

What inconsistant and highly convoluted behavior.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. Who's trivializing what?

[joshcryer]

8. Dozens of DU posters and 'liberals' invoking Iraq.

[Karenina]

34. GRATUITOUS VIOLENCE.

Having read so many of your posts in the last hour, each becoming more shrill than the last, please allow me to point out a concept you seem incapable of grasping.

GRATUITOUS VIOLENCE.

Gratuitous (adj.) 1a. given unearned or without recompense b. not involving a return benefit 2. not called for by the circumstances: UNWARRANTED

GRATUITOUS VIOLENCE. That is an appropriate description of today's carnage at VT. We would all do well to hold our counsel until we get further details of the whys and wherefores.

It is also an appropriate description of what is happening EVERY DAY in Iraq; BEFORE NOON. We KNOW the whys and wherefores in this case and there is NO EXCUSE for what the *MIC has wrought there in the name of the American people. NO EXCUSE. The carnage there was perpetrated WITH INTENT. Not the intent of a lone nutcase, but the INTENT and/or acquiescence and/or impotence of an ENTIRE NATION.

[babylonsister]

41. Thank you, Karenina!

:applause: :applause:

[indepat]

44. The operative words are "the intent"..."of an entire nation."

[godai]

18. Read the posts!!!!

There are a lot of comparisons to Iraq, like 'only' 31 deaths at VT pales in comparison to 500 a day in Iraq. Obviously, these folks don't have college age children. Iraq is a disaster but unrelated to the massacre at VT today.

All this is very disappointing regarding DU. Shouldn't someone be controlling these disrespectful posts? This is the WORST mass murder in US HISTORY.

[onenote]

9. thanks joshcryer

[Firepit 462]

10. I think the reason for the focus on Iraq,

was that it was totally unecessary, and totally avoidable.

Does your head fit through doors, or do you have to "suck it in" to go outside? I admire your passion, but ignore your tactics.

[joshcryer]

13. It's totally in the past.

Now what? You know what would happen if we left Iraq today? Right now? The civil war would continue, and I guarantee you that no one would give a shit about Iraq. No one would be going "Oh Iraq such and such people died today."

[Firepit 462]

20. I guess I'm not seeing your point, are you saying.....

1 we should stay in Iraq under the present leadership, and plan?

-or-

2 That the message regarding oposition to the war itself is simply "using" the Iraq bloodbath as a political token for the time being, and that Democrats really don't care about the Iraq war itself, they are just using it as a vehicle to another goal?

I'm not sure you can gaurantee me of anything, including your sanity. I think your reply to my post is silly, and you probably should not be given access to sissors or anything sharper than a crayon.

Open a window and cap the glue.

[joshcryer]

22. Yes, Iraq is just a political ploy.

See, what's going to happen, when we finally do pull out of Iraq? It'll still be at civil war, tens of thousands of people will still die, but we won't care.

Just like every time we interfere in foreign societies. Stir crap up, then bail out, and tens of thousands die afterwards. It's all fun and games.

[Firepit 462]

27. Not "every time we interfere in foreign affairs",

The Iraq war, and the war in Viet Nam are not the only two examples of US military involvement. They are however two bold examples of clouded judgement, poor planning, and unrealistic visions of victory.

I think your passion to be heard is making your message too radical to be defended, or agreed with. It's too early for me to hit the bong, and argue the relavance of the United States military.

Iraq war.....bad. I believe there are lots of people that believe that, not just as a talking point.

[Firepit 462]

28. Not "every time we interfere in foreign affairs",

The Iraq war, and the war in Viet Nam are not the only two examples of US military involvement. They are however two bold examples of clouded judgement, poor planning, and unrealistic visions of victory.

I think your passion to be heard is making your message too radical to be defended, or agreed with. It's too early for me to hit the bong, and argue the relavance of the United States military.

Iraq war.....bad. I believe there are lots of people that believe that, not just as a talking point.

[joshcryer]

29. The Iraq war is bad.

But unfortunately that's where we are right now. It should've never happened. Now we look for solutions. Many people here thinking pulling out is a solution.

They just don't want to see Iraqi deaths on TV because it hurts their brains. But if we pulled out they can be happy that Iraqi deaths wouldn't be on TV, though they will undoubtedly be still happening.

[trumad]

40. Pulling out is the only FUCKING solution!

[12string]

43. too early

Its never too early to hit the bong.That said,I agree with
you.

[Chico Man]

47. My roomate at VT tried to tell me the same thing

Ahh, waking up to the sound of the bong..

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to function as well as him under the influence..

[Bluerthanblue]

19. BREATHE- and slow down a minute- what is disgusting

is that those who are dying in Iraq, are dying as a direct result of our administrations unprecedented war of aggression, greed -stupidity and power- gone awry.

Those who die, and are dying everywhere in the world, with so little notice, or fanfare, as you point out, are every bit as valuable, poignant, and sad-

We don't have much hope of making a drastic, measurable change in many of the situations you mention- but WE 'started' the hell that has become Iraq- and we 'own' the carnage that has resulted- (despite what 'feels' right) It sounds so 'rational' to say the Iraqi's "have to step up- so 'we' can stand down"- but it is about as logical, moral....?? whatever the word is- "fair"? as driving a school bus full of kids over a cliff and into the ocean, and complaining not only that they can't swim, but that they are wet-

It isn't an ATTEMPT TO TRIVIALIZE the deaths in the US so much as it is a reality check as to how fortunate we truly are- and how naive we as a society sometimes really are.

"We're fighting them over there..." and it is only those who don't come home in the same condition that they went "there" in -that the horror, blood baths, countless casualties, WE provoked, and enabled that this f--d up "war on terra" * insisted on waging is 'brought home' in all it's ugliness.


We started this war- we started the chaos and killing- we own the guilt- no matter how uncomfortable that is.

Perspective- That is what I believe the OP was pointing out- ALL lives are precious- it isn't one 'american' to 10 iraqi's- or whatever.

There is tragedy everywhere- and it is ALWAYS tragic- even when it doesn't involve "us" as victims-


peace,
blu

[joshcryer]

30. Actually, those deaths are a direct result of secterian infighting.

As funded by Sunni / Shiite factions in the middle east.

Sure we gave them the "opportunity" to get their funding. And maybe even made a few of them upset to begin with.

But the fact remain that the vast majority of Iraqi's who die are killed by their own, not by American's.

Right now America is trying to clean up the mistakes that it started. It will probably fail.

[Bluerthanblue]

39. they were NOT killing each other like this under Saddam- he

was a tyrant, and a dictator- But there was not the daily carnage of civil/religious war that WE enabled.

I once likened him to a broken-down dangerous barn . It wasn't 'good'- it was barely 'ok' but it provided shelter from the storm for the majority of citizens-

The Iraqi people have every reason to blame us for this fresh hell- we took away the sorry excuse for 'order' they had- and it won't be 'ok' there for a very, very long time, if ever- and not without new oppression and massive casualties-

There is NO "maybe we made a few of them 'upset'"- we unleashed disaster.

For WHAT???????????

[indepat]

46. What happened in Iraq before it was invaded was on Saddam's watch for which he was responsible

except for what the UN sanctions caused/dictated. What has happened in Iraq since the invasion is on someone else's watch who, as invader, is solely (100%) responsible for everything that has happened thereafter 'cause in the absence of invasion and occupation, it would have been on someone else's watch. EOS

[lyonn]

25. Yes, I do obsess about Iraq, We caused it!

All your other issues are serious and need to be dealt with but Iraq was our personal tragedy. We caused it! bush added to the many miseries of the world with one stroke of the pen. Had we not gone into Iraq we could have spent some of that money on curing the miseries of the world and at home.

[bdamomma]

32. death/murder is senseless everywhere.

[Poll_Blind]

35. I agree. But the difference is WE pay for Iraq to happen, not the others.

  We have the highest chance of stopping that one because that's the one our government writes the cheques for. That's the difference.

PB

[qanda]

37. When you discuss news on a political website

People will make political points about that news. I don't think it's called for right now. If it were my family members who died, I would pissed if someone tried to diminish their loss by making political points, but I guess it's part of the nature of being on a political website.

[treestar]

42. Maybe because Iraq is in out control

It happens there because we selected Chimpy and we let our 911 fears keep us from opposing him, as a people.

We ultimately can't control individuals who lose their minds, but the carnage in Iraq can be said to be at our election. We could at least stop it.

Many deaths are unpreventable, some may be preventable but in a complex way that we may try to handle, but our failure to stop Iraq when Iraq had nothing to do with 911, had no WMD, and there were plenty of warning all along - perhaps we feel guiltier about the deaths caused there.

[Raine]

45. Thanks

saying this, I'm glad someone did.

[peacetalksforall]

5. -Very good comparison - as we go through coverage of how

the families and students go through shock - we can know recognize the UN-COVERAGE of our soldiers. While Bush promised aid and assistance to the students and families - we hear that our own soldiers who have seen this many people get taken out, pals and Iraqis don't always get support. In a denial about chemical exposeure in Gulf War 1 - our government is telling there is nothing wrong. Mental or phsycial, what is Geroge promising? Has he fulfilled promises to New Yorkers, yet? Has he fulfilled promises to New Orlean citizens, yet?

[TahitiNut]

6. Iraq has less than 1/10th the population. We're talking an order of magnitude.

Imagine TEN VA Tech shootings each day.

[joshcryer]

11. 140k people die in the USA from cancer caused by cigarettes.

If we're going to start comparing numbers and all.

[TahitiNut]

16. Yeah. Right. Students drop dead in their classrooms because they smoke.

Women and children drop dead and body parts go flying in markets and on the streets because they smoke.

Of course we just have to subtract the shooting deaths from the tobacco deaths ... and all is well.

:eyes:

[joshcryer]

17. Have you ever seen someone dying of lung cancer?

I'd rather be blown to bits than to go through that excuricating pain. Have you ever seen someone die from malaria? Ever see someone shit their brains out almost literally? I mean, really. Painful *unnecessary* deaths are not limited to guns and bombs.

[Bluerthanblue]

24. yes-

and it gave me the willpower to decide no matter what- i'd never smoke again-

She died a slow, agonizing death- but she also had ample opportunity to say what she wanted to those who most needed to hear.

I've also lost loved ones in very tragic quick deaths- balancing out the "well, at least he didn't suffer" with the "I should have driven him THERE" second guessing- or the "did he know how precious he was to everyone???- how much I loved him?- Was he scared?- I wish he hadn't been alone!"

Death is never easy- never- being angry and frustrated about the cause and manner is just part of the grieving-

and it sucks

[TahitiNut]

26. Your 'logic' can then be applied to the 3,305 dead troops in Iraq.

Wonderful. :eyes: They sure shouldn't smoke.

[joshcryer]

31. Sure it can, they're each tragedies in their own right.

I don't see what the rolleyes are about.

[lyonn]

36. Josh is really depressed. We are born to die eventually.

Some deaths are worse than others. I smoke and I can see if I should die of lung cancer that the comments will be that if I hadn't smoked, bla, bla, bla, but, some get old, like me, and die of other diseases. In other words, hey, we are all going to die and some go easier than others. But comparing that to the deaths caused by a war does not compute in my mind. If I kill myself, that is one thing, if my country kills and destroys a country for reasons that don't make sense then that is a whole different issue. Our troops are trying to do what our society has told them is honorable. Then they are sent to a war that was not necessary for the security of our country. Bless those troops!

Damn bush and his miserie machine.

[gatorboy]

12. Bush would be very busy in Iraq,

If he had to give press conferences for those killed daily over there. But hey! When did that matter?

[magnolia]

14. A student with an accent....

....was interviewed on MSNBC just now. He described the shootings, the scene. The interviewer said "it must have been frightening" he said "I'm from the Middle East....so...."

[KharmaTrain]

15. Don't Give McCain Any Ideas...

He may want to bring Goober Graham and Gomer Pence to VTI and try to buy Persian carpets.

One can't even start to equate the horrors in one in Baghdad feels when they see the death all around them day in and day out.

[Roland99]

21. And what is the Democratic Congress doing to stop it? NOTHING.

Yes, the Iraq War is a horrible tragedy every day but it does not affect a large portion of the American population. It's easy to ignore or not be affecting by something where one is not personally involved.

Millions have died in Darfur, Rwanda, etc. Where is/was the outrage?

[cyberpj]

23. Imagine if corporate news paid this much attention to ALL YOUNG LIVES!? Also

as much as I grieve for the families of those kids -
I grieve as well for the families of Iraqis and Darfurians and many others.

US news will now have another US tragedy with which to fill every waking broadcast, with no room for any other news, even though major and important news continues to happen all over this country and others by the hour.

[northzax]

33. indeed. completely irrelevant though

you know what? BAGHDAD IS A FUCKING WAR ZONE.

yes, it is a tragedy. but last I heard, there was not an active civil war going on in Blacksburg, VA. There is a civil war going on in Baghdad. you may have noticed.

[Gregorian]

38. We're all on the same side. Let's not react to each other.

I'm watching this, and see both sides.

Part of what is dividing us here is our frustration to our near inability to make any progress against this administration and their monsters. And also I have to wonder if that had anything to do with the reasoning in the sad person's head for killing people. We're frustrated, and let's not let this divide us. We're all on the same side. Appropriate discussion or not.

But let's remember our goal. I believe everyone here has something to say. You are all valid. Yes, it's early and inappropriate to compare the university shooting with Iraq. But then, it is also a point of view that could be important to furthering the much bigger goal of ending the death and destruction in Iraq. I'll take anything I can get to stop the killing. No matter how vulgar.

I believe we need to allow a broad spectrum of discussion, or we risk losing valuable ideas.