Are most vegetarians liberals/progressives?

[BuyingThyme]

I just learned that two of my closest relatives are conservative vegetarians. It strikes me as odd for some reason.

[mrs_p]

1. the only vegetarian i knew growing up

was a republican - well, until the mid-90s anyway.

[iceman66]

2. Wasn't Hitler one?

[old mark]

3. Hitler was a vegetarian and a strict non-smoker and non-drinker.

IIRC, he preffered herbal teas and the 1930's German version of "health food". And what he ate, everybody dining with him ate-with no complaints.
He also was injected with large amounts of amphetamine and an early form of methadone to calm him down.
He reportedly suffered frequent indigestion and copious gas.


mark

[Critters2]

47. Hitler was not a vegetarian. nt

[niceypoo]

79. Adolph Hitler's Vegetarianism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_vegetarianism">Adolph Hitler's Vegetarianism

[SemiCharmedQuark]

4. No. He had intestinal problems that limited his diet.

[Marlana]

5. No, he wasn't

Here's an article on Slate.com: http://www.slate.com/id/2096259/

According to his research, while Hitler for the most part followed a vegetarian diet, some of his favorite treats were liver dumplings, ham, and caviar. "Mainstream historians have an elastic definition of vegetarianism," he says. "They don't hold Hitler to the same standards as a practicing ethical vegetarian. You can't be a vegetarian and eat liver dumplings."

[Canuckistanian]

50. Mmmmm, liver dumplings.....

[provis99]

116. No, your source was discredited long ago.

The researcher was a vegetarian with a chip on his shoulder who committed fraud. Hitler was a strict vegetarian; he did it because he believed meat was unhealthy, and he loved animals.

[eridani]

159. What about being a steako-lacto-vegetarian?

Works for me.

[Taverner]

8. I was just going to say, Hitler was. But so was Gandhi

[Critters2]

46. Hitler was NOT a vegetarian. Goebbels presented this image of Hitler

to make him look like a disciplined ascetic. But his private cook said, after the war, that Hitler loved sausage, stuffed squab and other meat delicacies, and never gave them up. http://wwww.dailykos.com/story/2009/9/29/787888/-Hitler.-Was.-Not.-Vegetarian.

[Matariki]

88. Don't worry critters2 - just because Hitler was a vegetarian doesn't mean you're a nazi.

You don't have to get defensive about it.

[BoneDaddy]

129. Funny how people can

worry about this.

[PVnRT]

128. Hitler was a vegetarian because he got sick when he ate meat

There was nothing ideological behind it.

[polichick]

6. I can see conservatives being vegetarians for their health...

But I've never known one who cared about the animals.

[Shell Beau]

99. I disagree there. I know many republicans. I do live

in the south. Many I know care a lot about animals. They aren't your typical fundie repub, but they still claim to be republican.

[uppityperson]

7. I know a veggie couple that are very republican. There are many reasons for both

[BlooInBloo]

9. People who try to get me to eat something I don't want to eat are authoritarian...

They might CALL themselves "true progressives", however.

[armyowalgreens]

11. People who try to get me to not kill puppies are authoritarian.

But they might also call themselves "true progressives".


God damn authoritarian assholes.

[BlooInBloo]

12. People who think that killing puppies is like what I eat are stupid...

Under the (correct) assumption that I don't eat dead puppies, of course.

[armyowalgreens]

15. Yes they are stupid poopy heads.

:eyes:

[BlooInBloo]

20. Check back when you've had "material inference" (and associated concepts) day in school.

Because dealing with people who think they're bright and know only the barest minimum of formal inference, yet talk as though it is the end-all-to-all is very tedious. It's like living in the '20s or something.

EDIT: Actually, it's worse than living in the '20s. At least those people knew a LOT about formal inference.

[armyowalgreens]

21. I just love poking people who consider animal rights activists authoritarian.

It's very amusing.


Edited for accuracy.

[BlooInBloo]

32. See, e.g., Sellars, EPM, Dummett, FPL, and/or Brandom, MIE...

Ask your teachers what that means.

[omega minimo]

141. Mosquito 10; Warthog 0

:thumbsdown: :spray:

[Warren DeMontague]

78. Do you hear the silent scream of the carrots in your salad, sinner?

Or the helpless yelping of your tomatoes? Help me! Help me!

Repent. Now.

[armyowalgreens]

111. Are you comparing chickens and cows to carrots?

What kind of intelligence do carrots possess? Do they have the capacity to suffer?

[Warren DeMontague]

117. Like I said downthread; most reasonable people grok that there is a spectrum of sentience

that a carrot is not a virus is not a rat is not a chicken is not a person.

That factory farming isn't healthy for anyone, but that eating barbecued salmon doesn't make one Jeffrey Dahmer.

Similarly, most reasonable people grok that a sperm is not a zygote is not a fetus is not a "baby".

Moral Absolutists- particularly ones with no apparent ability to reconcile living on a planet where people fuck for pleasure or humans have been omnivorous for millions of years- as represented by views of PETA and Operation Rescue, are not capable of making such distinctions and seeing the shades of gray involved.

As such, they won't be happy until fill in the blank (non-procreative fucking/meat eating) is outlawed.

Good luck with that.

[unpossibles]

13. Straw man. I've been a vegetarian half of my life (I'm almost 40)

and have had FAR more meat eaters try to convert me than ever had vegetarians tell me what to eat. Furthermore, I have NEVER told anyone what to eat, drink, smoke, or not.

In other words, viewpoints like yours piss me off because they are aimed at a false stereotype. You probably know non-asshole vegetarians and don't even realize they are vegetarians because they don't do what you assume we all do.

[BlooInBloo]

19. I agree that not all vegetarians want to change my eating habits.

[Codeine]

30. Vegan for twenty years and I'd never try to change anyone's diet.

It's a side effect of being represented by the Hezbollah wing of vegetarianism/veganism that makes people assume we want to change them and gives us a bad name.

Hell, I was engaged to a meat-eater with no complaints.

[GirlAfire]

58. This.

This is so credited, Codeine.

[kestrel91316]

127. ".....the Hezbollah wing of vegetarianism/veganism......."

Best description of those people I've ever heard, lol.

[Codeine]

151. Kinda swiped it from Anthony Bourdain,

who refers to vegans as the Hezbollah wing of vegetarianism. I suppose I should be offended, but it's a damn good line. :D

[ZombieHorde]

121. I have also observed meat eaters being more pushy about diet than vegetarians.

Many but not all adult meat eaters seem to be threatened by vegetarians.

[Codeine]

152. I've never tried to make a meat-eater go veg,

but meat-eaters constantly push me to eat meat. And we're the pushy ones? :shrug:

[spiritual_gunfighter]

135. Totally

I have been a vegan for most of my adult life and I have never tried to convert anyone, but I have had meat eaters try and convert me many times. "Why are you a vegan"? "Dont you miss eating meat"? "Man, but meat is so good!" "I dont understand you at all". And the list goes on and on. I think meat eaters automatically think that I have a chip on my shoulder about it. Personally I think eating meat isn't a wise decision, but I never try and convince anyone to come over to my side. You are free to do what you wish with your body.

[PatSeg]

139. I gave up meat in the early 90's

and many people didn't even know I was a vegetarian. It wouldn't come up unless I was in a position to refuse certain foods at a gathering or a restaurant. I didn't discuss it unless someone asked me specific questions and then I was generally very brief in my reply. For me and many vegetarians, it is a personal preference, not a cause.

I also have had meat eaters try to get me to eat meat, which I find rather bizarre and sometimes disturbing.

[Ignis]

130. Vegetarianism has nothing to do with limiting others' choices.

C'mon, Bloo, you know very well the difference between a personal choice and an attempt to legislate (or otherwise restrict) what others can do/eat.

[Gabi Hayes]

10. back in the day, a lot of 'health food' stores were run by right wingers

when I lived in Arlington, VA, the best health food store that I knew of was run by a former B-52 pilot, who was very right wing.

as the years passed, though, he started wising up. it was an interesting leavening of a serious cold-war 'only good commie is a dead commie' attitude towards anyone/anything to the left of Joe McCarthy

he said he started changing his views by talking to his customers, most of whom he used to deride as 'hippy pukes, bearded weirdos, and peace creeps'

[Gulftrout]

14. Most Vegetarians are Malnourished

And are usually liberal/progressive in my experience. The strict veggos got that Karen Carpenter scarecrow look. I'm a fish/chicken/eggs/milk/cheese semi veggitarian. I need real protein now then so I don't look like Ribsy the Dog!!

[JanMichael]

18. Not me or my wife. Nice try. nt.

[flvegan]

23. Oh, really?

[a la izquierda]

27. Oh please...

My husband and I are healthy as hell and not twigs either. We're both road/mountain bikers and are fit in our 30s.

If you eat chicken or fish, you're not a vegetarian. It's not semi-vegetarianism

[Gulftrout]

37. Athletes and physically active people

Need more protein than the average couch potato vegetarian. This is why I invented semi-vegetarianism. More fruits and veggies for health, but fish and chicken for protein to rebuild muscle. I'm betting the both of you are anemic and ribsy from your flawed diet.

[BuyingThyme]

38. How about popcorn?

[wicket]

125. Got some right here

:popcorn:

;)

[flvegan]

39. You're laughable at best, ignorant at worst.

[Critters2]

52. You eat fish and chicken? That isn't semi-vegetarian.

It's "in no way at all vegetarian".

Oh, and I'm veg*n and perfectly healthy except for a congenital issue not related to diet (scoliosis). My doc compliments me on my good weight and even better blood pressure.

[Codeine]

56. You're spouting nutritutional absurdities

which haven't been medically accepted in decades. It's like 1965 logged on and started posting.

[unpossibles]

158. "It's like 1965 logged on and started posting."

LOL!

[endarkenment]

120. "I invented semi-vegetarianism"

How old could you be to be this clueless?

[Warren DeMontague]

157. I invented it too.

Except I call it "eating fish and chicken"

I also invented "flimshamhattery", which is the act of telling anyone who tries to lecture me on what I should or shouldn't eat to "go fuck a blackberry bush".

[Ignis]

132. Why do you hate science?

Please point to a contemporary study that shows that _anyone_ needs more than roughly 30g protein per day--particularly one that shows conclusively that athletes need a multiplier of that amount.

You should be right at home here, though. We have a lot of armchair nutritionists who still believe in food combining to get essential aminos. :rofl:

[Beaverhausen]

28. a fish/chicken/eggs semi-vegetarian?

I think if you eat fish and chicken you really don't qualify as a vegetarian.

[Gulftrout]

43. I never said I was a vegetarian

I'm a SEMI-vegetarian. I'm smart enough not to starve my body of protein.

[Critters2]

54. Me, too! And I do it without killing animals! nt

[Gulftrout]

69. But it's OK

To kill plants?? The over-pious I don't kill animals veggo. Hypocrites.

[Critters2]

85. LOL! It's the ol' "plants have feelings, too" argument!

:rofl:

First, plants have no central nervous system, so no...they don't have feelings.

Secondly, most plant foods are harvested at the end of their life cycle. Do you eat cows who've died of old age? Yeah. Didn't think so.

Oh, and in future, try being original.

[provis99]

118. Tell yourself that the next time your cucumber screams in pain!

(Just kidding)

[Shell Beau]

100. Nuts are full of protein.

[JSK]

109. Well, enjoy your "protein"

along with the anti-biotics, hormones and mercury.

You are woefully ignorant if you believe your protein has to come from animals.

[Codeine]

33. Stupid post.

Protein is in every damned thing you eat.

[Gulftrout]

41. Protein is in everything you you eat...

Yea if you want to count the negligible amount of protein in a lot of veggies. Couch potato skeleton vegetarians can get by on small amounts of protein. I can't and came up with the idea of semi-vegetarianism, a healthy alternative for athletes and blue collar workers.

[Tunkamerica]

44. wait wait wait...you invented eating a balanced diet?

how old are you?

and i bet you have a book.

[Codeine]

45. Baloney.

I work a physically-active job, bike regularly, and can hike all day non-stop with a bigger pack than any of my carnivore companions can manage. I only stop when their endurance flags. Somehow I manage just fine; no "couch potato skeleton" here.

[Gulftrout]

65. Your endurance probably flags

from being anemic.

[Codeine]

66. Anemic?

Have you ever met an anemic man, vegan or otherwise? Seriously dude, you're trolling now, and childishly.

[Ms. Toad]

35. Yep. That describes my daughter

who is a vegan and also the nutrition adviser for her dining coop. NOT.

Not to burst your stereotypes, but she is nowhere near scarecrow (~135 lbs. and 5'3"). She tracks what she eats, and takes supplements for the few things she doesn't get enough of in her diet (Calcium, Vitamin D, and B-12, and EPA and DHA (long chain fatty acids)). She is probably healthier from a nutrition standpoint that most omnivores, since omnivores for the most part assume they get everything they need from their food. In contrast, it is hard to live as a vegetarian or vegan very long without some busy-body (usually a relative or close friend) informing you that your diet is deficient - so a lot of them actually pay attention to it, if for no other reason than to be able to provide a fact based response to comments like the one you've made.

When is the last time you tracked everything you were eating to make sure you were not malnourished?

[AllieB]

42. It's great when you're young and in your 20s and 30s. Some people are suited to veg/veganism.

Other people aren't. After 10 years, I realized I wasn't. Despite being under the care of a nutrionist and supplmenting, I was sickly. I eat local meat, poultry, veggies, etc and have never been healthier.

[Ms. Toad]

60. That is a much fairer assessment than the others you have made -

that your diet suits you.

That doesn't mean that being a vegetarian is unhealthy. You would draw a lot less criticism if you would refrain from repeating baseless stereotypes about vegetarians being malnourished, anemic, couch potatoes(until recently my daughter danced 6-10 hours a week), bony, etc.

[AllieB]

64. Maybe you're confusing me with someone else?

Nowhere did I ever say vegetarians were malnourished, anemic, or couch potatoes. Please feel free to link to a thread where I said that vegetarians were couch potatoes, anemic, or malnourished. What I did say is many of them have to supplement (all my veggie/vegan friends do) because of low B-12 and iron stores. I was a vegetarian for over 10 years until my health faltered. I probably require more protein and fat than your daughter (I was a competitive runner), and given my heritage, I am more suited to this diet than one with a lot of grains, corn, soy, etc. Everyone's body is different.

My issue is with the sanctimony and acceptance that not everyone thrives on a vegetarian diet. You get more with honey than with vinegar. Most people push back when someone tries to dictate how they eat.

[Ms. Toad]

72. Sorry - you are right. I was confusing you with Gulftrout

I wondered what moderated Gulftrout . . .

The push back you got from me (although I did mistake you for Gulftrout) is because vegetarians and vegans are constantly told their diets are inadequate, unhealthy, etc. We rarely get through a meal with extended family members without someone making a comment to that effect to my daughter. In real life - as an omnivore - my experience is that the vinegar mostly comes from fellow omnivores trying to dictate how vegetarians eat, rather than the other way around.

[Gulftrout]

59. She wouldn't have to track

Everything she eats and take supplements if the all veggie diet was so "perfect". Don't hafta track my diet, it's a good one. Only a misinformed person would cut out yummy fish/chicken to make some sort of political statement.

[Codeine]

62. Not really a political statement, though -- is it?

Now your agenda is showing.

Me, I just like animals and don't want to part of killing the poor little fuckers if I can help it. :shrug: If I turned winger tomorrow and joined the teabaggers and started calling our President a a Nazi I'd still be vegan simply because it's a non-political decision.

[Ms. Toad]

68. First - if you have not tracked everything you eat

in your current diet for an extended period, you have no idea whether you are getting adequate nutrition or not. You don't have to do it forever, but if you truly care about nutrition, you should periodically track it. As long as you don't make any dramatic changes in diet from one year to the next, you should track it for a couple of weeks during each season for a year.

Get back to me when you've done that, including tracking all the nutritional components needed for a healthy diet, then we'll talk about whose diet is closer to being nutritionally adequate without supplements. I'm betting hers is.

Nice of you to presume you know why my daughter is a vegan - especially since you are wrong. Her reasons are health based, not political. She has an autoimmune bile duct disorder which is slowly destroying her liver. Since the liver must process all of the toxins that pass through her body she is trying to avoid ingesting toxins to preserve the liver function she has left to delay the need for a transplant. This is far easier to manage if she consumes only plant based foods, since animal based foods tend to contain more toxins (antibiotics, for example, with land based critters and mercury, for example, with water based critters).

[lurky]

48. I'm vegan and I lift weights.

I'm pretty damn ripped, if I say so myself. I've actually decided to cut back on the lifting because I'm starting to look like a ridiculous jarhead. :shrug:

[GOPisEvil]

51. *points, laughs*

Psst, your ignorance is showing.

[AllieB]

55. There are many healthy vegetarians.

You may not be suited to it (I wasn't) but saying they look malnourished is BS.

[Gulftrout]

71. If you hafta take supplements

by definition you're MALNOURISHED.

[AllieB]

76. Many omnivores have to take supplements because by the time the food gets to our table

it has traveled thousands of miles, is weeks old, and thoroughly devoid of nutrients. This goes for the vegetables, grains, corn and heavily-processed pseudo-meat products that vegetarians eat as well as the hormone- and antibiotic-laden meat that lands on your plate. I'm an omnivore and I buy local, free-range, grass-fed meat and poultry. That is the only way you can guarantee that the meat you eat contains its original amino acids and vitamins. Plus you get the omega-3s from the animals grazing naturally. Same thing with most of the vegetables that you eat-they are devoid of the nutrients and flavors that nature intended.

[Ms. Toad]

80. And what doctor told you that?

First: If you have adequate caloric intake, and the nutrients you need, you are not malnourished. No definition I am aware of limits malnourishment to those individuals whose source of the nutrients excludes supplements.

Second: Around 90% of Americans - including omnivores - do not have an adequate diet. http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/Publications/NutritionInsights/Insight28.pdf Common deficiencies include fiber, Calcium, Vitamin D, Magnesium, EPA and DHA.

My vegan daughter knows what is missing from the food she consumes - and is making sure she is getting it through supplements. Do you even have a clue what is missing from the food you consume?

[Critters2]

136. I take one multi-vitamin a day. Just like I did when I ate meat. nt

[unpossibles]

70. false. Sure, some are skinny, but you cannot say they are malnourished without looking at their

medical histories, unless you have some magic tricorder that we don't know about.

Many world class athletes, including champion body builders and triathletes, etc. - people who you would not say are skinny and malnourished looking - are vegans and vegetarians.

Furthermore, someone can be of average appearance or even overweight and still not eating a healthy diet. Meat does not automatically make you healthy, and frankly most of the things we all need to be healthy are not found in meat. But go ahead an ignore all of that.

[Gulftrout]

73. Besides Carl Lewis

Name one veggo athlete that had any success.

[lurky]

74. Google is your friend:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=keri/080616
http://www.veganathlete.com/vegan_vegetarian_athletes.php
http://almostvegetarian.blogspot.com/2008/02/famous-vegetarian-athletes.html

[unpossibles]

77. ...but facts are not. nt

[Codeine]

83. PWNED!

:rofl:

[JanMichael]

102. Awesome knockout! It always shocks me when people are some ignorant of reality.ity.

I also imagine that athletes like Mac Danzig catch all sorts of crap for being vegan/vegetarian in a sport where most fans are testosterone filled numbskulls (I can say that as I like MMA).

As for me I workout with weights, run, and have restarted practicing Goju Ryu karate. I do comsume milk, eggs and cheese, but no other animal products. The milk is organic, the eggs are free-range and the cheese NEVER has animal rennit in it.

[Ignis]

133. Ouch. That's gotta sting a little, no?

:rofl:

[Pool Hall Ace]

81. "I'm a fish/chicken/eggs/milk/cheese semi veggitarian."

I need a good chuckle every now and then! :rofl:

Obviously, you have never seen photos of any vegan body builders!

[JSK]

108. Them's fightin' words

Not to mention ridiculous. Upon what do you base your broad, sweeping generalization?

[armyowalgreens]

112. BS. My uncle is a vegetarian and backpacks up the sides of mountains on a regular basis.

[Ignis]

131. What % exactly? Over 50%, of course, but please be specific.

Or you could just admit that you pulled this statistic out of your ass.

Welcome to DU. Please check your broad brush at the door.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

138. Good job with the stereotypes

I am a vegan and I am 200 pounds, I work out and lift weights and you would never know I was one of those pesky vegans. I get more protein now that I watch what I eat than when I was an overweight and MALNOURISHED meat eater. But continue to promote stereotypes if you wish, but it ends up making you look less than intelligent.

[justiceischeap]

146. I'm mostly vegan and I'm overweight...

So there goes that theory.

(When I say mostly vegan, I mean I still eat cheese and ice cream sometimes... not the chicken/beef/egg kinda mostly vegan). As a matter of fact, last night we had "meat"loaf, corn and mashed potatoes in my house. It was an entirely vegan meal and damn good!

[stillwaiting]

149. veganbodybuilders.com

Visit it and learn...

When one choosed a vegan diet one must take a little care to ensure a healthy diet, but it is NOT that hard, and you do NOT need as much protein as you think to develop muscles.

Vegan sources of protein are much larger than you believe.

[stillwaiting]

150. Sorry, site is veganbodybuilding.com

[Raine]

16. It depends

on WHY the person became a vegetarian I would imagine. :shrug: I'm a vegetarian but then I'm a liberal. :-)

[Peacetrain]

17. Hey, I am just not real fond of meat.. has nothing to do with politics

and everything to do with likes and dislikes in my case :shrug:

[BuyingThyme]

22. Maybe you're not actually a vegetarian, but a vegaholic or something.

[Peacetrain]

29. ROFL... okay I will buy that

[jhrobbins]

36. There will come a time-(not in my lifetime, but eventually) when everyone will

be vegetarians. It is too resource expensive to maintain our carnivorous diets and also, apparently, many labs are working on meat alternatives as well.

[Peacetrain]

40. If I never had a piece of meat again.. I would not miss it for one second

I occasionally will eat an egg.. I drink milk and eat cheese everyday.. choke down some turkey at Thanksgiving.. I can not remember the last time I bought hamburger.

[Gulftrout]

94. You are a Semi-Vegetarian

[Shell Beau]

103. No, it just sounds like he doesn't eat red meat, and eats

other meats very rarely. Doesn't make him a vegetarian.

[Tunkamerica]

106. But I thought you invented Semi-vegetarianism...

How could someone else have come up with eating meat and vegetables together?

[Ignis]

156. I thought he was just protecting his brand.

You know, he has to be vigilant to ensure that he retains sole rights over who can or cannot use the term he invented.

:rofl:

[Ms. Toad]

84. Actually, there are significant chunks of land which are best used for grazing

Although a lot land used to grow grain to sustain meat production (and some currently used for grazing) could be used more efficiently to produce food consumed directly by humans, there are parts of this country which are not suited to producing crops fit for human consumption. (Particularly hilly land with unreliable rain patterns and deep underground water sources.) Some of those lands do grow sufficient vegetation to support grazing animals. Unless the PETA crowd/followers of Frances Moore Lappe (showing my age here) ultimately win and force a halt to all meat eating, we would be better stewards of our resources if we ended up with a mixture that is more heavily slanted toward plant based nutrition - but which does not entirely exclude meat.

[BOG PERSON]

24. No, many of them are degenerates and misanthropes

[JanMichael]

25. I'm a vegetarian that started for health reasons (cholesterol) then learned more about...

...how our factory farming system treats our "food". It was sickening what happens to chickens cows and other animals just so we can feed, and feed, and feed, our over stuffed faces.

Ironically my cholestorol is almost all genetic and not from consumption but I remain a vegetarian for ethical reasons.

And yes I'm on the hard Left and my wife, also a vegetarian, is on the softer left.

I did work with a republican vegetarian a couple of years ago but that's the only one that I know of personally. I think she was raised as a vegan or something and it just stuck...

[flvegan]

26. Some vegetarians are so because of health/medical reasons.

And sure, some will be conservative.

That said, I have never met a conservative vegetarian. Every single one I've ever met is at least left of center. I've never met a non-liberal vegan, however, though I'm sure they exist.

[Codeine]

31. There was a super-far-right dude

on the old Usenet alt.veganism (I think that was it) group who was an ethical vegan and still a winger.

Plus you have the Seventh Day Adventist religion -- very conservative but also vegetarian. I live right next to Ground Zero for their church (Loma Linda, CA) so I'm sure I've met quite a few veg righties and never realized.

[flvegan]

34. Oh, I'm sure.

The law of averages would dictate that there would have to be a certain percentage, and I don't doubt that. I was only speaking from a personal standpoint. I should have stated that amongst the liberal vegans, some would be classified as socialist and anarchist, not just dems.

[BuyingThyme]

49. Would one of you guys mind starting a "Was Hitler a vegetarian?" thread?

[Critters2]

57. See above. Is anything more predictable? nt

[BuyingThyme]

144. I thought it deserved its own thread...

but I didn't want to start it.

[uppityperson]

61. How about "did Hitler's vaccinations make him more whacky?"

[Codeine]

63. "Big Pharma and the Third Reich: Veganism's Secret Agenda."

:rofl:

[uppityperson]

67. Shopping carts didn't come about until Third Reich time either.

Another way to imperil young children!

[AllieB]

53. I know a lot of vegetarians and they're all liberal/progressive.

Then again, I live in Mass. so I don't know many Republicans anyway (and most are too embarrassed to admit it these days).

[Warren DeMontague]

75. Lots of conservatives like to preach at people over "immorality". I've seen that impulse in SOME

vegans/vegetarians, too. Please note the use of the word 'some'.

(I guess it's official: DU has moved on from Polanski/Letterman/Sex/Patriarchy to PETA/Meat Eating. I wonder if the phases of the moon are involved? :shrug:)

There's some overlap in the Venn Diagram, IMHO. And there's certainly a parallel between the absolutist rhetoric of the folks who think a chicken = a person and the people who insist that a fertilized human egg = a "baby".

My view is that folks should worry about what is on the end of their own forks, and not what everyone else is eating, just like consenting adults should worry about who they are fucking and what they're doing with their own bodies, and not about who the other consenting adults are fucking, or what the other consenting adults are doing with their own bodies.

That's my take.

[The Straight Story]

82. Folks seems scared of the 'consenting adults' stuff

Not sure why, but there seems to be a need for some to control what adults do.

[Warren DeMontague]

86. I also question the efficacy of preaching at people over stuff.

I'm of the opinion that people need to be left alone to figure these things out for themselves. I actually don't eat red meat anymore, but being preached at by vegans about it had nothing to do with that decision.

I think when people's choices can directly impact others, that's when it's legitimate to introduce regulation- like, in the case of drunk driving. The drinking is personal, the driving isn't.

Arguing that "eating meat hurts everyone" or "using birth control makes Jesus mad" doesn't cut it.

[Unvanguard]

91. Eating meat plainly hurts animals.

So the issue hinges on the question of whether or not they count. It is not by any means a matter of evil controlling authoritarians trying to deprive you of liberty.

[Warren DeMontague]

93. And eating vegetables hurts plants.

Still, we're omnivores, and claims of moral absolutist lunatics to the contrary, a chicken is no more a "person" than a fertilized egg is a "baby".

Do animals count? Yes. But that doesn't mean eating them is inherently 'evil'.

But that wasn't what my post was about. It was about the efficacy of preaching at people to get them to toe your personal moral line.

I don't think it's particularly useful.

[Unvanguard]

105. I think you're using a different definition of "hurts."

Probably one that fails to distinguish between the subjective experience of pain--something that, as best we know, is tied to nervous structures present in animals but not in plants--and mere response to external stimuli that may be harmful to the survival of a living thing. In any case, you are indulging in an appeal to consequences fallacy.

Animal "personhood" is quite a different claim, and has nothing to do with this issue. No one is suggesting that animals should be allowed to, say, vote.

As far as what you say is your real point, that moral exhortation is ineffective at changing things, I agree that it tends to be a rather slow-working tactic, with no great record of success... but when it comes to an issue like this one, where no other change but in moral consciousness could produce the desired reform, few others come to mind.

[Warren DeMontague]

115. "few others come to mind"- I suggest you study the Zen Parable of the Goose in the bottle.

How do you get the goose out of the bottle without breaking the bottle?

The answer: You don't. The goose has to get itself out.

I didn't say moral exhortation was 'slow-working', I said it was counter-productive. That means if it's working at all, it's working in reverse.

[Unvanguard]

145. Only in fantasyland does moral development happen outside of public discourse.

There are really no exceptions. You see the occasional philosopher moving far beyond his or her cultural level--as well as advocating for the moral consideration of animals, Bentham also wrote an essay arguing that homosexuality was morally acceptable and should be decriminalized, at a time when it was punishable by execution--but on the broader level of culture, people simply do not question conventional moral assumptions unless there is a very public, often very disruptive push for them to do so.

Absolutely every movement for social change had its tactics attacked in exactly the way you outline: wait, it will change on its own. It doesn't, unless you make it.

[Warren DeMontague]

148. Sure thing. Knock yourself out.

Check back with me in 5-6 months, when (like clockwork) the exact same people will be having the exact same stupid fight here.

Or, check back with me in 10,000 years, when human beings have terraformed Mars and Venus- and are still eating meat.

[Unvanguard]

90. Moralizing is just as traditional on the Left as it is on the Right.

The difference is the particular view that tends to be moralized about, in accordance with the kinds of politics that define each. The Left moralizes for the rights of the powerless and marginalized; the Right for their continued subordination and exclusion.

While plainly there is plenty of disagreement as to whether animals in fact constitute entities worthy of the moral consideration that would justify such leftist advocacy, the fact remains that it is merely the latest incarnation of a standard line among people of left-wing inclinations. At the risk of getting into a fight, it is perhaps worth adding that a traditional line voiced in opposition is that the mistreatment the Left protests is merely a private affair that is no one else's business...

[Warren DeMontague]

92. So, you think opposition to abortion and birth control is a legitimate concern of the "left"?

Just curious.

Because the same logic that claims a "powerless, marginalized" chicken at KFC is exactly the same thing as a Jew in a concentration camp (as per PETA) can just as easily claim that a zygote, a fertilized egg, or even a sperm is a "powerless, marginalized" victim.

[The Straight Story]

96. As an aside to what you are talking about

A 'victim' is a broad term that is worth discussing. Is someone/something a victim if someone else (presumably with a higher intelligence) destroys their 'life'? Whether it be a chicken or a fetus at 8 months (or younger/older), etc and so on.

Where would we as a society want to define such things/terms as 'victims' and what would we want to do to protect others from those who want to harm them?

Is a big area of discussion that involves a lot of philosophy tied into policy/personal beliefs (some would say those beliefs border on religion).

[Warren DeMontague]

98. I think most reasonable people recognize there is a sliding scale on things like sentience.

That a virus isn't a chicken, which isn't a dolphin, which isn't a human being.

Or that a sperm isn't a fertilized egg, which isn't a fetus at 8 months, which isn't a "baby".

Only the moral absolutists and extremists want to claim that a virus = a person or a fertilized egg = a "baby".

[The Straight Story]

101. I get that, the question I think that keeps coming up is

When is X equal to Y? Like when is a fetus not one and is a 'baby'? And if some folks on the left are against killing, when are they against abortion on a moral (although not legal per se) ground?

When is something considered to be 'alive' - not human if you want, but when does 'it' have a mind that feels pain, fear, etc, and at what point do we want to stand up for it and say that killing it is wrong?

[Unvanguard]

104. That's an interesting question.

There are a few ways to approach answering it.

I ought to state upfront that I'm partly inclined to answer your challenge affirmatively. It is true enough that the Left has traditionally been the ally of the most vulnerable and powerless, and true also that "pro-lifers" can argue quite rightly that fetuses definitely fit into this category. Someone who genuinely believed that abortion was murder, a moral atrocity akin to killing an innocent post-birth human being, would certainly be able to claim with some merit that his or her position was perfectly in line with what the Left is at its core about. "Pro-lifers" with left-wing politics do often enough make exactly this argument, and while I do not share their view of the moral value of fetuses, it's a fair enough point.

That said, there are two factors that mark the distinction here. First, leftist politics, at least in the incarnation with which the American Left is historically tied, is a product of the Enlightenment, and advocates not only equality but also secular reason. One persistent difficulty with "pro-lifers" is that their advocacy of fetal rights is rooted in essentially mystical and religious doctrines of (human) life's "sanctity", devoid of any consideration of the concrete characteristics that might make a life worthy or unworthy of moral consideration: this is what leads them to the absurdities you point to, and this is why abortion is so bound up with the religious/secular disputes in our culture. The same is simply not true of the philosophical tendencies advocating moral consideration of animals, which have their modern beginning in the work of Jeremy Bentham, whose moral theory opposed itself from the start to that kind of moral mysticism. His logic is simple and straightforward enough, and compelling even for many of us non-utilitarians: consideration is ultimately based on suffering, and animals suffer.

Second, individual autonomy is central to at least left-liberal politics, and while such autonomy has never extended to letting individuals harm others, it does extend to basic control over one's own body--and this fundamental right is abridged by prohibitions on abortion, and not by moral exhortations (or even legal prescriptions) against meat-eating.

[Ignis]

134. Thanks for using "some."

It's a sad statement of DU's collective perception of vegetarians that I have to thank you for avoiding the broad brush here, but I do. :)

[Warren DeMontague]

137. I did a couple years eating no meat at all. As it is, I eat very little, only free range poultry &

sustainable fish.

I haven't eaten any red meat in about a decade.

But my main concern is my own diet- I figure that's why my mouth is on my face, and not everyone else's. I'm just not into telling other people what to eat.

[Ignis]

140. I'm a vegan, but I have the same philosophy.

Sure, I'll work towards better treatment of livestock, more "humane" conditions for zoo animals, stronger laws against animal abuse, etc. But ultimately, what you put in your face is up to you.

:hi:

[Unvanguard]

87. Probably, at least those of us who are on ethical and/or environmental grounds.

Concern for social responsibility broadly is something people of left-liberal inclinations express a lot more than conservatives do. (I do not mean to suggest that such concern is absent in those who are not vegetarians, merely that it is a necessary prerequisite for those who are, at least for the reasons I mentioned.)

[Matariki]

89. Well, I've been told that they're more 'enlightened'

- by the vegetarians themselves though, so I'm not sure how much to credit that...

[wickerwoman]

95. Seventh Day Adventists are vegetarians and also quite conservative

as a rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_Day_Adventists

I remember reading that a lot of early vegetarian products (like veggie dogs and Boca burgers) were created for Seventh Day Adventists and other religious vegetarians.

Many Buddhists also practice vegetarianism and can be all over the political spectrum.

[Shell Beau]

97. I know some vegetarian repubs and one vegan repub.

It seems odd, but they do exist. I have to say that the love for animals can go beyond politics.

[Gwendolyn]

107. I don't think it's necessarily a political thing.

Half my health club is republican and more than a few are vegetarian. Works with the personal responsibility thing. (Boy, does it ever!!!)

And there are republicans who love animals as well. We have one in our own family. :shrug:

[havocmom]

110. I knew 4 rabidly RW vegetarians

I mean serious freeper types.

[JonQ]

113. Our distant ancestors rarely ate meat

A major evolutionary leap forward occurred when we were able to get access to large quantities of meat, it was essential to brain development.

So the meat eaters were the most progressive of our species.

[endarkenment]

143. So they ate rare meat? Well Done!

[JonQ]

153. Another major step forward

was our discovery of cooking. Not only did it kill microbes and reduce disease in that way, but it also increased the digestability of food (meat in particular). Which meant less hunting/gathering was necessary and we had more free time to develop culture, religion, language, civilization in general.


So everything we have today we owe to those intrepid BBQ fans.

[Terry in Austin]

154. LOLz!

:toast:

[dysfunctional press]

114. just the whiny preachy ones, it seems like sometimes...

:shrug:

[endarkenment]

119. The Whole Foods CEO - vegie?

[Artie Bucco]

122. Heh reminds of a girl i go to school with...

Very cute, short hair, rides a bicycle, does yoga and is a vegetarian. Despite this she is a very hard core freeper gal.

[Critters2]

123. Then she's not paying attention in yoga class.

Yoga is a philosophy AND an exercise program.

[Mollis]

124. Most I know are.

I am, and I know a few vegetarians, and a few vegans...all the vegetarians are progressive, but I do know 1 vegan who is conservative. And he is vegan because he cares for the animals.

[scheming daemons]

126. I'm liberal and I *LOVE* meat...

..

[endarkenment]

142. all vegies are liberal does not imply all liberals are vegies.

you knew that, right?

[Critters2]

155. Oh, you and your damn logic! nt

[Javaman]

147. Nice post,...um,,,errr, Tomato!!! yeah, tomato!!! nt