Is "charisma" a form of emotional manipulation?

[Fumesucker]

I'm finding that I have a learned response to people who are often viewed as "charismatic", even as I may be responding positively in an emotional way I find myself intellectually driven to distrust them, I think of them as manipulating my emotions.

Do charismatic people use their charisma to manipulate others?

[stray cat]

1. If you are easy to manipulate it doesn't take any conscious action by someone

[Fumesucker]

2. Different people have different buttons..

Not everyone responds to the same stimuli in the same manner.

[omega minimo]

4. The OPs asking about being sensitive to manipulation -- are you calling that "easy to manipulate"?

It's quite the opposite.

[omega minimo]

3. Charisma is different from what people sometimes mean when they say "charismatic"

more along the lines of what you're perceiving..... the archaic word for it is "glamor," meaning a kind of spell.....

See post #20. You may be as perceptive as these folks:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6487147

[patrice]

20. There is an archaic Romantic use of the word "glamor" that refers to how the natural world

CAN signify something greater than itself. The questions are "greater" exactly how and to what degree. Never having critically examined those questions, the Romantics followed "glamor" right off the cliff. Now, THERE'S a spell for you!

[omega minimo]

43. Interesting.

I've heard of the medieval alchemist use of the word. Tell us more, patrice :popcorn: :hi:

[Quantess]

5. Charisma is in the eye of the beholder.

(or ear)

[patrice]

6. depends on awareness, self and otherwise. Participating emotionally is not necessarily a

bad thing. Emotions have significance. They aren't the whole truth, but they DO matter.

[Fumesucker]

8. It's just my experience that when someone tries to manipulate your emotions..

It's rarely for your benefit and almost always for their own.

[patrice]

16. True! That is usually what's going on, but awareness of self and other makes negotiation

possible, though not required. One can still walk away, but awareness gives you a choice as to whether to use an experience to the advantage of your own purposes or not. In some situations, it's actually possible to be honest about this, in others not.

[merh]

37. You are the one that is trying to manipulate emotions.

I find your entire repulsion to charismatic people somewhat comical.

You allow yourself to be emotionally manipulated by them in a negative way.

[Fumesucker]

44. ROFL.. So if I don't do what they want me to do..

I'm being manipulated by them..

While if I do fall for their charms I'm not..

Right. :eyes:

[merh]

48. Yup - you don't bother to determine if what they are saying has

substance - you automatically condemn them and distrust them because of their charisma. Thus, you allow the charisma to manipulate you.

Kinda sad for you that you so openly admit to allowing stereotypes to control you as you do.

[Fumesucker]

51. So if you distrust someone they are manipulating you?

Then I suppose all the Republicans are manipulating you since I'm quite sure you don't trust them?

Distrusting someone doesn't mean that you automatically discount every word they say, it means you pay more attention to what they actually do say and you check up what they say with known facts.

And the stereotype of the charismatic individual is that most everyone likes them and trusts them instinctively.

[merh]

53. If being inspired is being manipulated, so too is disliking and distrusting

upon first glance based on the stereotypes you right about.

You stereotype all charismatic people, they have have hidden agendas, they all are out to manipulate and are without substance, they are not to be trusted.

And even worse than that, you stereotype the people that do like them or trust them or inspired by them.

[Fumesucker]

54. Everyone stereotypes..

Everyone has prejudices.

I admit my prejudice in this particular instance.

And you won't even admit that charismatic politicians followed by a cult of personality have caused some serious problems in this world.

Edited to add: I cannot change my life experiences that have led me to distrust charismatic people and I wouldn't even if I could. We all learn lessons in life and one of the lessons I have learned in a fairly long and eventful life is that charismatic individuals are often not to be trusted at face value (as are many people who lack charisma, true).

You apparently think I should ignore the sometimes extremely painful lessons I have learned in my life.

[merh]

56. Why do I need to admit a thing.

I've responded to you simply because you are wrong to equate inspire to worship. You know that and that is why you refuse to tell me who inspires you. I see no leader that is being worshiped by a cult personality as you claim. I see you struggling with your own demons and stereotypes. You are scared of the boogey man and you don't want to accept the fact that your fears are exaggerated.

LOL, expecting me to admit to something when you cannot even admit to yourself that you are wrong in your odd notions of a personality cult. Hell, you won't even admit that being inspired by someone is not the same thing as worshiping someone.

[Fumesucker]

57. I know you don't see it..

Something about forests and trees comes to mind.

Or fish not noticing the water in which they swim.

Your entire argument is based on misreading and exaggerating what I write.

Did you search my posts to find one where I used "messiah" or "obmabot"?

[merh]

58. Why would I need to search your posts.

I took you at your word you had not used the terms.

And you still can't admit that you claim that those who admit to being inspired by someone does not mean that they worship them or are part of a cult.

You are so fearful of this being turned against you, the closed mindedness that you continue to try to defend, that you won't admit who it is you are inspired by. You did admit that you were inspired by others. You won't admit that being inspired does not equal worshiping.

Its a fun game to play with you, I know that it bugs you because you keep coming back to try to defend yourself and to try to explain your twisted reasoning.

Justify and defend all you like. It is you that is manipulated and it is you that is basing your conclusions on stereotypes.

[Fumesucker]

59. Because you apparently do not believe me..

I'm admitting that I have a prejudice, but you are misreading what I say and exaggerating it.

And I never claimed that being inspired by something is the same thing as worship, that is one of your exaggerations.

Are you saying that you do not have prejudices and stereotypes?

[merh]

60. I have not mis represented what you said.

You need to go back to where I posted my first post to you.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6746068&mesg_id=6749045

To support your inspire equals worship equals "fear all cult personalities", you even posted a new thread.

My posts have been in direct response to your replies and your conclusions as found in this OP.

I do have prejudices and I'm sure I stereotype more than I should. I'm human that way. I don't, however, post threads mocking everyone that I disagree with or that might well fall into one of my stereotypes. I don't lump everyone into a group because they maybe could be affected by a personality I distrust and that frightens me.

[Fumesucker]

61. Here was what I said in the OP..

"I'm finding that I have a learned response to people who are often viewed as "charismatic", even as I may be responding positively in an emotional way I find myself intellectually driven to distrust them, I think of them as manipulating my emotions."

Nothing about worship or even mentioned followers.

[merh]

63. How dishonest of you.

You know that when you posted your OP we were involved in a discussion related to this very topic in another thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6746068#6749045

See our discussion in this thread beginning at post #74 posted the Saturday night before you posted this thread.

Notice that before you responded to my inquiries at post #153 which was posted at 1:18 pm on Sunday and which was directly related to your OP, you posted this thread at 1:22 pm.

It all involves your bizarre fear of charismatic people and some weird view you have of "cults of personality".

Don't try to play games, you have made a record of your position and that record is clear. You associate the inspiration others have admitted to as some type of worship and you fear "cults of personality".

And I ask you again as I have asked you on several occasions over the last few days, who inspires you and why?

.

[Fumesucker]

64. I'm not revealing anything to you..

I post enough that I don't recall the details of what I do post for more than a fairly short time, DU is not the only place online that I frequent. If you were to dig far back enough in my DU posts you could probably figure out what has happened to me to make me feel the way I do, I have posted a few times about the experience but it's been a little while.

My latest negative experience with a charismatic person caused me by far the greatest hurt I've ever felt in my fairly long life and the pain is far from gone now. Of course, you want to dig into my pain and enhance it to make your own little point, for that reason I shall not give you any more information.

You seem to think that wishing to avoid pain is "bizarre", I find that viewpoint a bit bizarre myself.

[merh]

65. I don't want to dig into your pain.

What you just posted explains it all. You have been burned and you were inspired and you feel betrayed. You had that cult connection with someone who was charismatic and they let you down.

You have personalized this all way to much. You are saddling others with your fears and/or failings.

People can be inspired by another more than they are inspired by dead folks or folks who exist in books and memories, like Jesus, Buddha and Mohamed.

Being inspired by another does not equal worship and does not mean that there exists any "cult of personality" like you write about or fell for.

And I'm sorry, but thinking my debating you on an issue that is based on irrational understandings which originate from your emotional baggage is bizarre is just another sign that you are projecting your emotions and failings on others.

You are too personally involved in this whole notion of cult personalities and worship and charisma to reasonably view the issue let alone to fairly judge others.

[cliffordu]

7. I find attractive young saleswomen impossible to say no to.

Like that, you mean??

[Fumesucker]

10. Depends what they are asking...

:evilgrin:

[conscious evolution]

9. Absolutely

Just ask Jim Jones followers.

[Fumesucker]

13. Good example..

Or Sun Myung Moon..

David Korresh.

[omega minimo]

15. do they have a web site?

:yoiks:



I'm SORRY :blush: :hide:





Just ask all the American sheeple who let Reagan and Reaganism lead the country off the cliff............ and still don't care to know what a "financial coup d'etat" means..............

[tblue]

11. I don't think you can generalize. But it's always good to keep both eyes open

and not blindly follow anyone.

[movonne]

12. Well that depends on who has the charisma...Gaundi had it..and he

used it for good...Obama has it and hoping he uses it for the good of the world..I see many of the so called preachers with it and most of them are out for the money...so the answer to your question is....yes they do and some use it for good and others for manipulation...

[seabeyond]

14. "driven to distrust them, I think of them as manipulating " if used to manipulate

i was going to answer. a person having charisma does not have to use it to manipulate another. i have a forceful, aggressive personality. it is what it is. who i am. i know, i can feel when i use to manipulate. at the point of stepping over that line, is the point i abuse another.

yes

it is their wrong to use their charisma to manipulate another

[Autumn]

17. Of course they do

look at history.

[BlooInBloo]

18. "Do charismatic people use their charisma to manipulate others?"...

Um, that's what charisma is FOR.

Same with persuasiveness and a lot of other things.

The only awkwardness is due to the blanket maligning of the notion of "manipulation". Take a more rational view of that concept, and all awkwardness goes away.

[Fumesucker]

19. Manipulate me for my own good..

Slap me, beat me, make me write bad checks.

:rofl:

[patrice]

22. It is possible to lead people to a fuller understanding of a situation. Women do it all of the time.

Sometimes to the advantage of those being lead, sometimes not.

[BlooInBloo]

23. Or just ask a girl out on a date. Or argue to convince someone of something.

[Fumesucker]

24. Argue to convince someone of something..

I know you're not that much of a n00b.. :evilgrin:

I long ago gave up trying to convince anyone of anything they didn't already want to believe.

You don't tug on Superman's cape.

[dbonds]

21. Charisma is just a motiveless attribute...

It is how it used that can be a problem. When some realize they have it, they abuse it - others don't conscientiously use it.

[bertman]

49. Spot on, dbonds! I have seen and met people at parties or meetings who just naturally

attracted others to them. Some were more charismatic than others, but they just had something that other people gravitated to. How they used that charisma on those who got swept into their orbit would be an interesting topic for discussion.

[TheKentuckian]

50. That is right in the old strike zone (nt)

[CJCRANE]

25. The RWers always say Hitler was charismatic, I always reply so was Churchill.

Use your own judgment based on your values.

[Fumesucker]

26. Wasn't what i was asking..

In fact Reagan would be a better counterexample, Churchill was in favor of socialist medicine in the UK, therefore his charisma was bad by Wingnut standards.

[CJCRANE]

27. You didn't specify RW charisma. I gave examples that show charisma works both ways.

Hitler doesn't share my values so I wouldn't have followed him but I probably would have supported Churchill.

[Fumesucker]

28. I meant Regan was a better counterexmple to a wingnut..

I gathered that was who you were referring to.

[CJCRANE]

29. But the point is that Churchill manipulated people's emotions

with his speeches...but we see that as a good thing.

[Fumesucker]

30. I think we are fooling ourselves if we are sure which demagogues we would or would not have followed

We tell ourselves comforting stories that may or may not be true, how many of us would have followed Hitler had we been in that time and place?

I certainly like to think I would have resisted but there's really no way of knowing for certain.

[CJCRANE]

33. I'm not so sure..how about Bush after 9/11?

We've lived through something similar (though on a smaller scale)...

I was here on DU a few months after 9/11 lambasting the neocons at a time when Bush had 90% approval.

My moral compass has been tested these last 8 years and I believe I came out on the right side of history.

[KittyWampus]

31. Do Emo people use their darkness to manipulate others? Do class clowns use their wit

to manipulate others?

Your problem is, you fail to realize we ALL manipulate one another. The questions are, do we influence others consciously and are we influencing them in a constructive manner.

[Fumesucker]

34. Class clowns usually are charismatic..

Kind of comes with the territory.

Apparently your answer is "yes".

[KittyWampus]

40. It's an interesting discussion! And I guess my answer is 'yes', but it's not necessary a bad thing

or anti-social or destructive. :)

[Gman2]

32. I feel very manipulated by Charisma.

http://charisma-central.com/

[CJCRANE]

35. I think the problem with charisma

is when someone persuades you to do something you didn't intend to. That's happened to me a few times and I just had to become a stronger person.

But if a charismatic person inspires or motivates you to do something you wanted to...then that's a good thing isn't it?

[Orsino]

36. We all use our charisma to manipulate others, IMO.

We're even jealous of those who do it better than we do.

[Fumesucker]

39. All of us are jealous?

I don't really think that's true.

[Orsino]

41. No, I won't insist that we're all jealous...

...just probably more of us than are willing to admit it.

[Hannah Bell]

38. yes.

[TexasObserver]

42. It certainly is for those who are easily manipulated by charisma.

And that includes those who are easy to offend.

[Fumesucker]

45. I'm far from easy to offend..

Certainly so compared to what I see around DU on a daily basis.

[annabanana]

46. True Charisma is not all that common.

It is innate and can't be learned. It can be very powerful, and people who have it can use it in all manner of ways, sometimes without understanding exactly what it is they're doing.

[anonymous171]

47. Do intelligent people use their intelligence to manipulate others?

[Fumesucker]

52. I wouldn't know..

Don't consider myself intelligent.

[timtom]

55. Probably.

Ever since the days of Elvis' deification, I have been strongly resistant to cult of personality, adulation, and idolizing the "charismatic."

Obama has charisma. But, I am not lockstep with him.

[H2O Man]

62. Sometimes.

Non-charismatic folks manipulate others, too, though.