A few hint to for those on here who get upset at the "single issue" DUers

[AllentownJake]

There seems to be a lot of unity threads on here these days (which really aren't about unity they are about progressives shutting their mouth)

1) They aren't the purist you think they are. They are actually very pragmatic. If you checked their voting history, they probably are all super voters. A lot of the people you are criticizing are the heavy lifter worker bees in the democratic party. If you volunteered at a phone bank or a canvas during the last election, chances are one of these people was the one running the phone bank or canvasing location (unpaid, instead of spending time with their family). If it wasn't for these people, those doors wouldn't have gotten knocked on and than those phone calls wouldn't have been made.

2) They aren't generally single issue DUers. They may have an issue they devote a lot of time to in off election years, but generally speaking, they need health care, have a mortgage to pay, have to find a job or keep a job, are gay or have friends in the gay community, they have friends or family members in the military, they have children whose future they worry about.

3) They know the issue better than you do. I know its hard to believe, but someone who is passionate about a particular issue probably spends sometime educating themselves about that issue. They will also be able to recite for you from memory every time a particular politician has sold out their issue and the politician's supposed reasoning and why it is bullshit. They will also be able to tell you which politician's are big supporters of their issue.

4) These people need to vent. If you spend your time lobbying on behalf of a particular cause or issue only to repeatedly have the people in power to tell you in a nice way to "fuck off" you need a place to get it out of your system. They know they have a 50% chance of being heard by one party and a 0% chance by the other. However, if they aren't giant pains in the ass to the party that listens to them half the time, they don't get heard at all. They are more than aware of incremental change. They can also very easily recognize no change or movement that is in opposite to the issue they support. Again, see number 3 before trying to engage these individuals in telling them that they are wrong on their issue.

Now here is the thing, browbeating these folks isn't going to get you anywhere. Calling these folks names isn't going to get you anywhere. In fact doing these things will make them more strident than they were before and say things that upset your reality a lot more. Your best bet, is to let people vent with each other their frustrations instead of trying to bring people into your reality where everything is going in the right direction.

[FiveGoodMen]

1. K&R

[bluestateguy]

2. As long as everybody behaves the same way on election day at the voting booth, I will not complain

nt

[Ruby the Liberal]

3. K&R

[ProSense]

4. "They know the issue better than you do." How do you know this?

In fact, your entire post is nothing but unsubstantiated opinions.

Here's a great idea: Start a thread calling out DUers for calling out DUers.

This OP is whiny defensive nonsense.

[AllentownJake]

6. I'm guessing an activist

who spends their time in off election years lobbying on a particular cause knows that issue a little bit better than someone who is a fan of a particular politician. Call me crazy.

[ProSense]

8. How do you know who is an activists and who is armed with accurate facts?

What if the other person knows as much about the subject?

[AllentownJake]

13. If you want to engage other DUers in debate

I'm not discouraging that. I'm speaking in generalities, however if someone has a strong position on a particular issue, so much that they follow it on a regular basis they generally have facts to back up their strong stand.

[ProSense]

15. "I'm speaking in generalities"

Really?

[MajorChode]

35. I'm not so sure

I've seen a lot of activists that aren't even close to having their facts straight and many of them don't even live anywhere close to reality. That's not to say activism is always a bad thing and I can think of numerous examples of how activism has been a very good thing. What I have observed is that when someone feels very passionately about a particular subject, they tend to be much more likely to believe things that aren't true, but support their position, and disbelieve things that are true but don't support their position. In other words, objectivity goes out the window.

[redqueen]

127. +1

[blondeatlast]

129. +1. Spot on. nt

[ieoeja]

133. +3

[ruggerson]

7. wow, hit a nerve, eh? n/t

[ProSense]

10. A nerve? Considering all the misinformation people are reacting to, no

simple pointing out that this is defense of kneejerkism.

[havocmom]

9. That's your opinion

which we can treat the same way you treated OP's

Reply is whiny defensive nonsense, in my opinion. :+

I find the OP thought provoking. Not a bad thing in my book.

[ProSense]

12. Oh, let me use the typical defense when someone starts a post like this:

Why are you trying to shut people up?

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

20. "This OP is whiny defensive nonsense."

Another Irony Meter busted.

lol

[bvar22]

70. LOL.

:patriot:

[donco6]

106. We need to take out a subscription to keep up with this one. n/t

[Nikki Stone1]

45. Pro Sense, I was one of those "heavy lifters" for years, and we WERE better informed

In fact, we were so well informed that people thought we were crazy because they HADN'T been keeping up with the right's war on contraception and their violent hate speech toward gays. Back in the 90s, I remember trying to talk to fellow Dems and explain that the right wanted contraception made illegal and wanted gays to be "cured" and converted. People thought that I, personally, was a wingnut. But time has proved that others who weren't involved were merely uninformed.

Every once in a while, you will see me answer a post with WE. TOLD. YOU. SO.

That is because we did.

And no one believed us.

Yes, we heavy lifters were far better informed.

[ProSense]

55. "WE. TOLD. YOU. SO."

That's what this is about? You were right all along and everyone else was wrong, they are never right?

This OP and attitude are condescending. There have been a lot of charges made against the President and others that have proven false. There have been claims made on issues that have proven false.

[AllentownJake]

56. What claim in this OP

is making any false accusations about the President.

Are you upset because I don't like his choice in economic advisers, and am not buying into this jobless recovery that is being sold after TARP?

[ProSense]

63. Who said anything about the OP making a false claim about the President?

You started an OP that basically says don't criticize a particular group because they are right (know more than you do) and need to vent.

Ridiculous.

[AllentownJake]

66. To quote you Pro

"This OP and attitude are condescending. There have been a lot of charges made against the President and others that have proven false. There have been claims made on issues that have proven false."

[ProSense]

68. That was a response to the "we told you so" statement

And the rest of my response is a perfect summary of your OP: "don't criticize a particular group because they are right (know more than you do) and need to vent."

[AllentownJake]

69. Man you really hate it when people don't see the world as you do nt

[ProSense]

75. From some who starts an OP claiming that certain people should be above criticism.

Irony.

[Toasterlad]

120. He Didn't Say People Should Be Above Criticism

He said that the people doing the criticizing should be as well-informed as the people they're criticizing. Basically, he's saying that if you don't know what you're talking about, you should keep your fucking mouth shut. Which is advice that you of all people should take to heart.

[asdjrocky]

78. There's that word again, whiny.

Do you know what an offence that is to people who really care?

Do you know how rude you are being. My niece is gay and she wants her civil rights so she can be legally married to the woman she loves, is she a whiner?

Saying someone is a whiner does not make it true, it makes you a punk, and I can't think of a better word.

So, the way I see it, if you are free to continually call good, thoughtful Duers "whiners" then you ain't nothing but a little punk to me. Get it? Do you feel respected by me? Do we have any chance for a dialog now?

You're a punk.

[ProSense]

87. Do you know how offensive this OP is?

Do you know a lot of people are here because they are passionate about the issues?

Dimissing people by basically saying don't criticize a particular group because they are right (know more than you do) and need to vent.

1) They aren't the purist you think they are.

2) They aren't generally single issue DUers.

3) They know the issue better than you do.

4) These people need to vent.

Is rude and condescending.

Calling me a punk, makes you an ass.

[asdjrocky]

93. I'm calling you a punk because that's how you are acting.

You are the one that is being dismissive. Don't you get that when like everyone says it to you?

I've never called anyone a cheerleader or any of that other crap. I've been called a whiner, bitter and I've been invited to leave on more than one occasion because someone did not like what I had to say.

I didn't see the Op call you any names. I see a passionate advocate in the Op. You're mean and you're rude and if calling you out on it makes me an ass then so be it. I'll be an ass.

I'm not a whiner. I'm not bitter at all. I'm not a loser, oh yeah, been called that too. Anyone that so freely throws those labels around deserves the label of punk. We can be friends, we can even be on the same side, but I'm not one to suffer bullies.

If telling it like it is makes me an ass, then I'll wear like a fucking ass badge.

[ProSense]

101. "I see a passionate advocate in the Op."

Don't criticize these people because:

1) They aren't the purist you think they are.

2) They aren't generally single issue DUers.

3) They know the issue better than you do.

4) These people need to vent.

That's oppressive and condescending from where I sit.

And you have every right to continue wearing the "fucking ass badge." You've earned it.

[asdjrocky]

102. Yeah, and you're a broken record.

You know, Obama isn't your boyfriend.

[ProSense]

104. "Obama isn't your boyfriend." I'm devastated.

No wonder you approve of the OP.

[waiting for hope]

117. +1 Rocky ...

:)

[nashville_brook]

98. awesome response. so true.

[donco6]

107. +1

Not that she'll pay the slightest attention. The entire thread opposes her tantrum, but she cannot see it. Bizarre.

[ProSense]

111. -1

Because I don't think you're a member of the group others are not allowed to criticize:

1) They aren't the purist you think they are.

2) They aren't generally single issue DUers.

3) They know the issue better than you do.

4) These people need to vent.

[roody]

122. When I need up-to-date info on Latin America,

I go to Latin America forum because there are some extremely dedicated and informed regular posters there. I know because they have been there for years and they do their research.

[Starry Messenger]

5. Spot on.

:thumbsup:

Another really great OP.

[Howardx]

11. "These people need to vent"

for months on end.

[ProSense]

14. Yeah, only these people.

They are special.

[EFerrari]

16. Months? Trying going without for generations and get back to me.

[AllentownJake]

17. They are engaged in the democratic process

These seem to me the type of people at election time, when your looking for volunteers, money, or guaranteed support you should be making a case to not poking when they express their frustration in off election years.

[ProSense]

18. And the people challenging your special group are not? n/t

[AllentownJake]

21. I only have on particular issue I'm passionate about

and frankly its not one of the big ones that seems to cause the fights on here.

They are free to disagree, they are free to tell me they disagree, but calling someone disloyal, a troll, or other such names, after that person put significant work into getting a certain person elected, makes that person question whether they should work so hard next time to be called names after the election.

[Engineer4Obama]

34. And what about those who call others cheerleaders, obamabots, ect

Hell at one point someone accused everyone of being "paid white house trolls". Doesn't that argument cut both ways?

[AllentownJake]

37. We should all be nicer to each other

[Engineer4Obama]

54. Yeah I'm supportive of what I believe you are attempting to accomplish

but in order to truly bridge the gap you have to offer an olive branch. An admission of wrong doing on both sides is essential if you wanna get through to anyone. If you merely defend a side you are associated with it comes off as smug (whether intentional or not). To say that one side often knows an issue better than you is to imply that those who support the president on a certain issue are ill informed, while at the same time dismissing that many of the attacks against a certain politician can be completely devoid of logic, facts, and anything substantive.

I believe those who support Obama can often be heavy handed and dismissive. At the same time I recognize there is a growing resentment that is more often than not based in raw emotion and hyperbole. Now this is not to say that there are not those in the middle but if we truly wish to accomplish a progressive agenda then we need to quit treating each other like the enemy!

The issue at hand is not black and white. There is not one set of good guys and one set of bad guys. If this factionizaton of DU continues it will cease to be a place for anything but bickering. If that occurs then well there is one less place for dem supporters to organize, debunk false information, and exchange ideas and then everyone suffers. If we cannot manage to be united on an issue we can at least be civil to one another about it.

[AllentownJake]

59. Honestly

It's best for people to stay away from each other till election time and form ranks.

I would never have the audacity to go into an OP on Gay rights and tell people they aren't being patient enough. I would not go into a post about someone concerned about unemployment who is unemployed and tell them to wait. I would not tout economic improvement in other areas of the country to a small business owner who is worried about closing their business next year because their area isn't experiencing any kind of a recovery. I would not be selling a health care plan for people who are uninsured that takes effect in 2013.

It isn't good guys or bad guys, it is a question of empathy.

[ampad]

50. No no no

They are allowed. This is what gets me about this argument.

OP you can sit there and say we need to be nicer to each other till the cows come home. The truth is that the nastiness cuts both ways. I find the entire OP to be condescending as hell. This is a political message board. Politics and debate go hand in hand. Those who want to vent have every right to do so but don't get pissy when folks try to debate the issues. I agree that calling names and whatnot is not cool. However, as stated many times, that cuts both ways. Cheer leading and obamabot anyone? There are no victims here.

[EFerrari]

22. I don't understand why you feel so privileged

that you can attack this OP so personally.

What is a privileged group in this big tent? ProSense?

And, btw, I have yet to see a challenge mounted on the merits. Overwhelmingly what I've seen would embarrass your average middle schoolyard bully.

[AllentownJake]

24. Oh this one was on ignore for a few months

It's the first time I'm replying in a while.

[EFerrari]

33. Your threads have been spot on. Don't wear yourself out.

Of course, I say this in my pajamas out of my explosive need for instant gratification fueled by my divisive agenda.

lol

[saracat]

44. You made me spit coffee on my desk! That is funny!

:rofl: We gotta laugh or we will cry. I can't believe some folks call themselves Dems.

[AllentownJake]

46. That was just today!

[EFerrari]

51. LOL. Who are the people in your neighborhood?

Rock on, AllentownJake. :hi:

[Swamp Rat]

58. LOL!

:rofl: :loveya:

[EFerrari]

67. Y como estamos, mi corazon? Bien?

:hi:

[Swamp Rat]

85. Estamos muito bem, meu coração.

:D

Estoy muy cansado porque tengo un examen (ingeniería hidráulica) mañana. x( :hangover:

[EFerrari]

90. My eyes! My eyes!

lol

Es pasajera. Go forth and conquer! :hug:

[donco6]

108. You goddam whiner.

Stop it. :rofl:

[ProSense]

25. Wait, it's OK for the OP to criticize other DUers, but should be shielded from criticism?

Everyone has a right to their opinion and everyone has a right to challenge that opinion.

[EFerrari]

27. That's right. And when you stoop to personal attacks

such as this "special group" bullshit, I'm sure you expect to be called on it.

[saracat]

23. "special group" ? How condescending.We are ALL special but you don't

seem to realize that. Some of us think ALL deserve health care and Civil Rights. Others don't. They think of those aspects as"special interest groups". My feeling is we ALL count equally , and it is not whining to insist on equal treatment.

[ProSense]

26. Yes, the special group in the condescending OP. On edit, let me elaborate

1) They aren't the purist you think they are.

2) They aren't generally single issue DUers.

3) They know the issue better than you do.

4) These people need to vent.

What tripe.

[AllentownJake]

29. I think you've made your point

Hope you have a wonderful evening.

[EFerrari]

30. The OP isn't condescending but your posts to this thread are offensive.

You might want to stop elaborating before you lose your last shred of cred here.

[Zenlitened]

48. I don't think 'condescending' means what you think it means.

Your def of 'tripe' might be a bit... off... too.

Seriously, don't you think you're overreacting a bit? The OP sure seems to have struck a nerve, for some reason. :shrug:

[ProSense]

71. It means exactly what I think it does

The OP basically says don't criticize a particular group because they are right (know more than you do) and need to vent.

1) They aren't the purist you think they are.

2) They aren't generally single issue DUers.

3) They know the issue better than you do.

4) These people need to vent.

[AllentownJake]

72. You are really blowing up here

The point of my OP was to let people vent about their issues, what are you afraid of they are going to reverse 100 years of American history and start a third party. People are pragmatist, but when they don't see something they believe in being addressed they get upset.

[ProSense]

73. "The point of my OP was to let people vent about their issues, "

The point of DU is discussion and debate.

[AllentownJake]

76. Yet you have not added any discussion or debate in any of your responses

You poke your head into threads throw up a link and act like a 13 year old whose dad was just insulted.

[Forkboy]

79. The OP you started was just you venting.

You're free to tell me how the one sentence was actually an invitation to discussion and debate, but I won't be buying it, and I strongly doubt anyone else will either.Tons of DU posts are just venting, including some of yours.

[Zenlitened]

86. I think now would be a good point in the thread to admit you overreacted...

... and are simply making yourself look ridiculous with each follow-up post.

[gleaner]

57. For however long it takes ..

Last time I looked there was no remote controlled device forcing anyone to read posts they didn't want to read. You've got the ability to block, eyes to see what you are getting into, and no reason to read it if you don't like it.

I agree that if someone is passionate about an issue they are better informed than someone who is casual about it. If you care enough and you want to explain something you have to prepare for challenges to your facts. If you're casual you have the same situation but unless you are super involved it is easier to shrug it off and go on to the next topic.

In the meantime I'm sure that everyone has a pet hobby horse to ride when it comes to what they want to discuss, it's just that a lot of them don't feel that they have a right to tell others what they "can" and "cannot" talk about. The purpose of discussion is a free exchange of ideas. Not an exchange of ideas where one person tells another what ideas are acceptable to talk about and what ideas are not. I believe what is needed to function well in an environment like this is tolerance, and I wish that I saw it more often.

[saracat]

19. Thanks for this.I had one of the most egregious of these posters reply that those who disagreed

with her weren't "wanted". I replied that the Prez might see it differently. She said she did not give a "sh*t". The worst part is that the nasty ignorant behavior of these folks is driving people away from the Party.There have already been many posts by folks who aren't going to work or contribute anymore and these people share a large responsibility for that. Real Democrats reserve the right to question everything and real Democrats will not walk in lockstep.

Being a Democrat doesn't mean you HAVE to support a state by state PO. It doesn't mean you can't disagree about Afghanistan or dislike the presidential appointments.It means you can stand up and demand "action from the WH on "Choice" and demand the president keep his promise on FOCA. It means you can call him out on DADT.

Perhaps there are few real democrats remaining or it may be a vocal minority are diluting the Democratic message and equating it with expediency. Either way, it is a bad thing.

[AllentownJake]

28. I just laugh these days

After the work I put in, in 2008 and these people know it to get this kind of treatment from them. The local party is no different than DU. I swear, they want to shoot themselves in the foot. They are almost challenging us.

[ProSense]

31. "After the work I put in, in 2008 and these people know it to get this kind of treatment from them."

"These people"?

"After the work I put in..."


Hmmm, sound like whining. Do you suppose no one else worked?

[EFerrari]

38. When you have nothing to add but venom, it's time to stop. n/t

[saracat]

39. Nowhere does the poster insinuate that no one else worked but I will

say that the majority of the nasty posters are ones that are johnny Come latelys that jumped on the Obama bandwagon versus some of the critical thinkers who have put over thirty years into the party as well as being candidates several times over themselves.I have seen former candidates and folks that are among the Dem party's biggest contributors mocked and vilified on this board because they have questions or do not approve of some actions. This isn't right. And note, I said the "majority" of the nasty folks, not ALL of them.

[AllentownJake]

40. I'm sorry

I worked very hard during this past election and have been disappointed numerous times. I've also been happy with decisions numerous times. When I say I'm disappointed it does no good to than attack me. That only makes me feels like doing that work again, is not worth the effort.

[asdjrocky]

Sounds like someone being a punk to me.

[donco6]

110. In the name of all that's holy, take a break.

I'm starting to get a little worried about your state of mind.

[AllentownJake]

112. I'm locking my doors tonight

and putting on the alarm. I don't think I've ever gotten anyone this worked up before on here.

[donco6]

113. And it wasn't even for trying.

Sheesh.

[AllentownJake]

115. I know

She saw this post and saw the other I made today, and just lost it.

Thank God, she didn't see my unemployment numbers post.

[saracat]

47. I hear ya. But soon the worker bees will be gone

it will be interesting to see the results.We have few "volunteers" left and only paid staff who exist to get themselves promoted.

[AllentownJake]

53. They have this odd tendency in the party

to dump people from the Hill into campaigns every election cycle....I'm sure they are great staffers. They are terrible campaign workers and their skill with volunteers is kind of lacking.

[slackmaster]

32. Wow, good one - K&R

:kick:

[asdjrocky]

36. On a roll my friend. K&R!

I've worked my ass off for this party for thirty fucking years.

[Nikki Stone1]

41. And, those "heavy lifters" feel the MOST let down when their hard work seems mocked

by Presidential inaction or outright slaps in the face, like Rick Warren. As a Southern Californian, I can guarantee you that the Saddleback church did not vote for Obama en masse and did nothing to help his candidacy. Gay groups, on the other hand, DID much heavy lifting for Obama and DID produce a reliable voting bloc for him. That is why RIck Warren was such a slap in the face.

[Zenlitened]

42. K&R. Good post.

[stray cat]

43. Based on yourself alone? I have to trust what I see posted with my own eyes and senses

Many people on Free Republic are probably thoughtful individuals who are really knowledgeable about current events but its not real evident from their posts

[Nikki Stone1]

49. Stray Cat, I was one of those "heavy lifters" for years, and we WERE better informed

In fact, we were so well informed that people thought we were crazy because they HADN'T been keeping up with the right's war on contraception and their violent hate speech toward gays. Back in the 90s, I remember trying to talk to fellow Dems and explain that the right wanted contraception made illegal and wanted gays to be "cured" and converted. People thought that I, personally, was a wingnut. But time has proved that others who weren't involved were merely uninformed.

Every once in a while, you will see me answer a post with WE. TOLD. YOU. SO.

That is because we did.

And no one believed us.

Yes, we heavy lifters were far better informed.

[saracat]

80. And judging by some posts Nikki, some still don't believe us.

[Nikki Stone1]

84. God, saracat. They never saw the opposition research.

We who were heavily involved did. I hope to hell that our DUers are not that dumb. The right wing isn't finished with us yet.

[saracat]

88. Exactly what I have been saying .Alas, it is to no avail. Some have achieved a false Nirvana!

and no amount of facts will convince them otherwise.But is that to be wondered at when critical thinking is treeated with contempt?

[Nikki Stone1]

94. This is a partisan board, so the people who run it have their limits on true argument

and that's their right, I suppose. But not everyone has to do the rah-rah thing. The problem with people is that they don't believe that extreme things can happen. There was a guy on this board predicting the stock market collapse for at least a year. I didn't have anything in the market, but a lot of people did. This poster (I wish I could remember his name) posted about the housing bubble a number of times. Everyone told him he was being alarmist. I used to rec his posts because, from what I was reading, he was on target. Sure enough, we had a huge crash.

And there's another one coming: commercial real estate is going belly up; much of it was overpriced, leveraged with next to nothing, and bought when businesses were sure to rent the space. Along with that, there is a second housing thing coming when a second round of ARMs kicks in. They will be hitting around the same time. I wish I had had the money to buy gold. I didn't then and I sure as hell don't now. I just have to wait it out and trust that I can hustle a buck. Of course there is a run on the dollar now too.

What a mess, eh?

[saracat]

95. Yup. My husband says the second round of forclosures will be really bad

and the unemployment is worse than they tell us. But its all good and getting better in Nirvana. Best not to burst that rose colored bubble.

[Nikki Stone1]

97. Unemployment is almost at 20% right now.

Remember when Bush changed the way unemployment was calculated? I wish I had a link on that. Anyway, we have no real way of making intelligent decisions about our money because the real indicators have been made fraudulent. It will get worse. I am in Southern California. Riverside, to my East, is completely devastated by this economic mess and the mortgage defaults. The only way I can think of to really assess the economy is to walk around and see what is happening. I watch store closings and the places remain vacant. I have friends who are upside down on their houses and can't get refinancing from "Joe" in the Indian call center. I watch prices going up, especially in Safeway stores like Vons. I watch their workers get treated worse and worse, and my prices on staples go up and up. Aluminum foil, store brand, was SEVEN dollars the other day. I remember buying it not long ago for FOUR.

All we can do is change how we live, economize, and attempt to become more self sufficient.

And find a way to get cheap meds from Canada.

[saracat]

99. And some of those aren't that cheap. The WH needs to put the brakes on Big Pharma, but I don't see

it happening.And I have posted before. Without Big Pharma being regulated,HCR is next to worthless. I can't afford to buy the pills my doc wants me to take NOW ,and I have insurance so what is the point of my going to the doctor if I can't do what she advises?

[Nikki Stone1]

100. What part of the country are you located in?

I despair of the Federal government. I do believe that Wall Street is now completely in control. That is why we are all being reduced to serfs.

[saracat]

103. Arizona. And the Mexican meds are awful. Few name brands

and the heat gets to them as most of the pharmacias are not air conditioned and the prices aren't that wonderful.Most were comparable to what I pay with insurance but still expensive. $65 for one a month is too much no matter who you slice it.

[Nikki Stone1]

109. Lordy. I had no idea that the prices were that high across the border.

The dollar is really falling. :(

I don't think there is much solution. The Baucus bill sucks. And maybe it will seem like sour grapes, but if Hillary Clinton had won, there might be more fight going on.

[AllentownJake]

52. I'm not saying that you should take my word for it

However, there seems to be a trend on here of certain posters, making accusations against people who have strongly held beliefs. Those individuals for the most part are good democrats, but what progress on one issue or another, and their desire for progress on that issue is met with shut-up, wait, or other things. People don't get progress on their issue by keeping quiet about it.

[Orsino]

60. I can't walk a mile in everyone's shoes...

...so I won't hate on 'em.

[EFerrari]

62. That's about the wisest thing I've read on DU ever.

[Kitty Herder]

61. K&R

[MissMarple]

64. You are quite right. Play nicely, kids.

[bvar22]

65. I am FAR from being a "Single Issue" voter, but....

...I have a Touchstone Issue this year.

In 45 years of straight Democratic Party Political Activism I have NEVER seen an issue as Black vs White as Health Care Reform.

Will we get REAL Health Care Reform?

OR

Will we get some scam that transfers Billions of Public Dollars to the For Profit Health Insurance Industry with only a few crumbs scraped off the table for Working Americans in the disguise of a phony Public Option that covers only 3% of Americans after ten years.

This issue is a simple but dramatic Touchstone to determine who the Democratic Party really represents...
The BIG Special Interests, or Americans who Work for a Living.
It IS that simple.
There is no middle ground.
The Democrats have a historic opportunity to show who they really represent.
They OWN the White House.
They OWN the Senate.
They OWN the House.
They OWN a HUGE popular mandate for CHANGE.
There are NO more excuses.

The outcome WILL determine my future support for The Democratic Party.

IN the meantime, I will continue to fight for ALL the other Liberal Issues I have always fought for:

*Medicare for anyone who wants it.

*Immediate withdrawal of ALL military forces and "contractors" from the Middle East.

*Immediate reduction of Military Spending by at least 50%

*The immediate break-up (Trust Busting) of everything "Too Big to Fail".

*Fair Competition Legislation that lets Mom&Pop (small locally owned businesses and farms) compete with Big Box and Factory Farms on a level playing field.

*An end to "Free Trade" (Race to the Bottom)

*Organized LABOR and local co-ops.

*An end to the two-tiered Judicial System

*Prosecution of rich American War Criminals and War Profiteers. (Oh yes they did!)

*An END to "Corporate Personhood"

*Strictly Enforced Publicly Financed Elections (severe penalties for criminals)

*Transparent and Verifiable elections (Why isn't this a front burner issue with the Democratic Party?)

*Re-Regulation with strict oversight of Banking/Investment, Transportation, Communications, Trade, Energy, Utilities. There should be NO Public Money for private Prisons, armed Private Police, armed Defense Contractors, or private intelligence agencies.

*Immediate Civil Rights and Equal Protection for ALL. (No Exceptions)

*Free Quality Universal Education to everyone who wants it.

*Strong Social Safety Net and Consumer Protections.

*An end to The Patriot Act and a return to The Constitution.(especially Habeus and privacy protections)

*A refutation of the "Unitary Executive", and legislation to ensure it NEVER happens again.

*An END to Republican/Corporate influence INSIDE The Democratic Party !
(NO! They DON"T deserve a seat at the table!)

These are ALL Issues I consider important, but Health Care Reform is a touchstone.
I don't really care what label some anonymous DUer tries to hang on me, or what incendiary rhetoric (or insults) they choose to use.
I fought FOR all these ISSUES before Obama.
I will continue to fight for them.

I'm NOT interested in personalities.
I CARE about Policy and Direction.
If our politicians move TOWARD these goals, I will applaud.
If they move AWAY, I will oppose.
If The Democratic Party moves away, I will find another party.

It IS that simple.

[inna]

74. +1. well said, and i feel the same way. nt

[G_j]

81. if we get some scam HCR,

it will be a sure test of Obama's integrity, whether he signs it, or calls it for what it is.

sure hope that doesn't happen.

[Angry Dragon]

83. #65 list

I saw nothing in this post that was without merit. I can not see why anyone would attack you for these views.

With that said if you need someone flamed just give me a call. Dragons can really flame if needed.:)

[Autumn]

92. I wish I could recommend your post.

Policy and Direction have become very important after the last eight years.


edited for spelling

[saracat]

96. Bravo+1. It is true many of us fought before Obama.Our world did not begin with

Obama OR any politician. We care about the cause.

[glitch]

123. Deserves its own thread. You speak for me. nt

[treestar]

77. #4 is a fail, no one is told to eff off

But really, single issue voting is crazy, whether it be about abortion (I know some of those on the right wing side - voted for McGrandpappy over that alone, as if it would have any effect) or any left wing cause.

It's basically self centered - only my issue matters.

[KoKo]

82. Hoo Boy! You Leftist need ta Learn! Shut yo' Mouth...Shut the Fuck Up

because we don't need no "rights" for anyone sept us gun toatin' Family and Friends. We do it for Jesus and the Chamber of Commerce. You don get it? See me in the parkin' lot..

[saracat]

91. Sad but true! Otherwise referred to as "leftist fringe that don't count"

Or the 10% the Democratic party can do without. I wouldn't be so cocky about those numbers or so certain.

[bvar22]

131. I believe the poll numbers are VERY soft.

In every PUBLIC Poll, I give Obama and The Democratic Party the highest marks possible.
Privately, I am VERY disappointed.
So disappointed that if something doesn't change quickly, I will jump ship after 40 years of Party Line voting.
I suspect I am not alone.


This is NOT the wing of the Democratic Party I will vote for.

[bvar22]

89. OOPS! My bad.

I forgot to recommend.
There.
Fixed it.
:patriot:

[enigmatic]

105. K&R

Thank you for this!

[waiting for hope]

114. Shout out to madfloridian for

her excellent posts on Education - I can think of no one better here that has been so diligent in getting the word out.

K&R

[varelse]

118. +1

Sadly, madfloridian seems to be stalked by sneaky unrec'ers. It doesn't stop her though :loveya:

[AllentownJake]

119. +2

[Starry Messenger]

121. Yes!

+100

[glitch]

124. true that. she gets a lot of abuse and she relentlessly hangs in there. nt

[Hatchling]

116. K&R

[asdjrocky]

125. Hang in there Jake,

Some people never learn.

[Mimosa]

126. My main issue was/is health care

And, yes, after studying it in consultation with MDs for 20 years, I do understand the issue. My second issue is the exporting of American jobs. I have studied it for over 20 years.

We've been sold out and many of us who got Obama elected are bitter.

[Bonobo]

128. Me too, Mimosa. nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

130. Voting issues makes a helluva lot more sense than voting party.

Particularly, when the politicians in the Party one belongs to votes against, or fails to support, the issues at hand.

[TheKentuckian]

132. I'm not going to unrec but I do find the OP dismissive in an attempt to be clairvoyant

I also despise that a big chunk of the people that the OP calls for special patience or appreciation for to also be pretty damn dismissive, judgmental, intolerant of opinions, knee jerk reactive, inpatient, holier than thou, fast to ignore, quick to question motives, seldom question their own beliefs nor permit others to question them, generally disinterested in enlightening others especially to change minds, and pretty damned self important.

Not all, probably not a majority but a damn healthy chunk. If these folks are all you project then they are knowledgeable, sharp minded, and true hearted adults and can and should make arguments that stand or fall on their own just like everyone else. I find the OP generally a voice of wisdom and clarity that has the wit to cut through a variety of complex issues and capable of making logical projections of outcomes but this isn't one of those times because you are setting up a privileged frame while rebuking those that don't acknowledge it. There can be no exchange of thoughts or ideas when self proclaimed experts are put into a position of being inherently correct not only in the spirit of their ideas but also the methodology required to bring them to fruition. The OP does not seek to open up dialog or to reduce browbeating but rather to invest the "rightful" ability to browbeat into a fewer selected hands. Thats not right, reasonable, rational, or fair.

The cream needs little help to rise to the top.

[Number23]

134. Absolutely. And many here see through this type of BS.

The OP does not seek to open up dialog or to reduce browbeating but rather to invest the "rightful" ability to browbeat into a fewer selected hands. Thats not right, reasonable, rational, or fair.

There seems to be a very small but vocal group of people here who believe that some have the right to voice whatever opinion they want and present it as fact, no matter how ignorant, divisive, devoid of fact or reason, and counterproductive because they "need to vent." People like that need to make some friends. That's what friends are for -- to listen to you vent, even when it's utter nonsense, because they love you.

This is a discussion board. And if you're going to spout things that are patently untrue, then you best be prepared to get called out on them.

[ChiciB1]

135. Just Felt A Need To Add My Thoughts About This OP & All That It Says

AND implies! Kudos, and thanks for sticking up for so many of us who have been called out because we have had the "audacity" NOT to agree with the way those in D.C. AND the WH have acted.

I have been a Liberal "ass-hole" for most of my life! But, I wear the label well!

I've said it many times before, many times here... If you don't STAND for something, you'll FALL for anything!! And if that makes me a bad Democrat, then so be it!

I'm NOT seeing the HOPE/CHANGE thing as clearly as some, I GUESS!! But I will speak out when I feel things are going down the tube, and when I see too many people who are SUPPOSED to be representing us, actually doing JUST THE OPPOSITE!! Kinda makes me think that "the money thing" gets in the way!!

But I don't think I got elected to the "cheer leading squad" so perhaps I don't play well with others!