White House in dilemma over Israeli use of cluster bombs

[lovuian]

http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?sid=226016

The Bush administration is to present a preliminary report to Congress Monday on whether Israel misused American-made cluster bombs during its war with Hezbollah militants in Lebanon last year.

The U.S. State Department is required to notify Congress about the possible misuse of American weapons under terms of the Arms Control Act, which governs U.S. arms sales.

The New York Times says the preliminary report will say Israel may have violated agreements with Washington by dropping U.S.-made cluster bombs in populated areas of southern Lebanon.

The newspaper says Bush administration officials disagree about whether to penalize Israel over the issue. The Times also says some officials believe Israel violated U.S. laws, while other officials say Israel acted in self-defense, and at worst committed only a technical violation.
more...
Its a interesting question Democratic Congress will be challenged on these issues right off the bat

[JohnyCanuck]

1. Dilemma my ass.

What they gonna do? Cut off aid and military assistance to Israel? Don't make me laugh.

[BeFree]

4. We can only hope n/t

[jody]

5. Politicians can't cut off aid to Israel or Israel will make sure campaign donations are cut off. n/t

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

12. Indeed.

The solution, obviously, is to round them up. Maybe give them arm bands or something. They can't be trusted, you know.

[jody]

16. What a cute post, so original and dripping with content! Did you think it up all by your self? n/t

[entanglement]

22. Let's see...we're talking about Israel's use of cluster bombs here

and US culpability in those actions...and you pull out the 'round-em up' and 'armbands' routine. What a criminally idiotic and obnoxious post!

[rockymountaindem]

17. 'Cause Israel and all the Israelites control all the money

...yep :sarcasm:

[jody]

18. My, my you are so creative in your exaggerations. n/t

[rockymountaindem]

19. Then maybe you'd like to clarify your earlier comment

Seeing as how I obviously misinterpreted it.

[jody]

20. No, my statement was clear but I'll let you try again to make a point. n/t

[rockymountaindem]

21. Here's how I interpreted it...

You said that if US politicans stop aid to Israel, "Israel" will make sure said politicans don't get campaign donations anymore. That leads me to believe that you think Israel has a vast amount of power in the US political system, which the US allows it to wield against its best interest. I, on the other hand, fail to see why "Israel" would be able to put a stop to me or you donating to politicans of our choice, or why the Israeli lobby is any more powerful than the lobbies of other countries.

I thought you comment sounds a lot like all those "well, the Jews/Zionists run everything" comments that I hear about once a week in public and just about every day on the internet.

[jody]

24. IMO media reports of AIPAC's influence on politicians illustrates the power it and other supporters

of Israel's dominant political party have on U.S. politicians and political influence means campaign donations. :shrug:

Assuming AIPAC is roughly correct in it’s claimed AIPAC Achievements, it is quite successful as a lobby for Israel.

As America's leading pro-Israel lobby, AIPAC works with both Democratic and Republican political leaders around the country to ensure that the U.S.-Israel relationship remains strong and vital. With the support of its members nationwide, AIPAC has worked with Congress and the Executive Branch on numerous critical initiatives, including:

· Securing Critical Foreign Aid to Israel, which totaled $2.52 billion in 2006 and will provide military and economic assistance.

· Prohibiting U.S. aid and contacts with the Hamas-led PA until its leaders recognize Israel's right to exist, renounce violence and ratify previous Israeli-Palestinian peace agreements.

· Extending U.S.-backed loan guarantees to Israel until 2011 and renewing the authority to transfer U.S. military equipment to be stored in Israel for use in a potential crisis.

· Ratifying an agreement that led to the Israeli medical service Magen David Adom's admission to the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement (IRC).

· Condemning Iran for holding a conference casting doubt on whether the Holocaust happened. The resolutions reproached the anti-Semitic statements made by Iranian leaders and asserted the United States' commitment to preventing a nuclear Iran.

· Passing the Iran Freedom Support Act, which renews and strengthens sanctions aimed at curtailing funds and international cooperation necessary for Iran to pursue nuclear weapons.

· Passing the Iran Libya Sanctions Act, which seeks to reduce funds for Iran's nuclear weapons program by allowing sanctions against foreign companies investing in Iran's energy sector.

· Reauthorizing the Iran Nonproliferation Act to include sanctions against entities providing technology to the missile and weapons of mass destruction programs of both Iran and Syria.

· Fostering U.S.-Israel Homeland Security Cooperation by taking U.S. homeland security professionals on trips to Israel to exchange information and techniques wit their Israeli counterparts.

· Passing Congressional Resolutions that demonstrate overwhelming support for Israel's right to self -defense in the face of attacks by Hizballah and Hamas.

· Designating Hizballah's TV Station as a Terrorist Entity through legislative language as well as support of a letter to President Bush signed by 51 senators.

· Passing the Syrian Accountability Act, which allows the president to sanction Syria for its continued involvement in Lebanon and support of terrorism.

· Increasing Military Aid to Israel by working for $1 billion in government grants that will help cover the escalating costs of the war on terrorism.

· Keeping World Pressure on Hamas, by working to pass a House Resolution before PA elections that warned of serious policy implications for U.S.-Palestinian relations should Hamas be part of the Palestinian government.

[rockymountaindem]

25. Of course a group is going to blow its own horn

If all our politicians decided tomorrow that they weren't ever going to listen to another word AIPAC said, I'm sure they'd be just fine.

[jody]

26. Do you believe AIPAC is not an effective lobby? Which of their claims do you believe are lies? n/t

[rockymountaindem]

27. I don't think their claims are lies

I also don't think that their requests are the only deciding factor in all that legislation, so they probably shouldn't take credit for it. That's all I'm saying. I do think they're an effecive lobby because they draw attention to their issues, but I don't know if they're any more or less persuasive than anybody else. I honestly think a lot of that would have been passed with our without AIPAC.

[jody]

30. Then you agree that AIPAC's campaign donations are dependent upon a candidate supporting

Israel's policies. I agree with that conclusion.

[rockymountaindem]

31. Yes. Of course.

But in your original statement you made it sound like "Israel" was capable of stopping all campaign donations to a candidate, which is certainly not the case. There are politicans in office who do not get money from AIPAC and yet don't have trouble raising funds from elsewhere.

[jody]

35. Have a great day.

:hi:

[guruoo]

28. I do believe that Washington...

in many cases DOES allow the "Israel lobby" to wield it's
power against our national interests, (i.e., putting
Israeli national interests above that of the US).

[rockymountaindem]

29. Why would they do that n/t?

[guruoo]

40. You should ask them. n/t

[burythehatchet]

6. you don't seem to understand

the dilemma is whether to replenish the bombs with a direct gift or a special supplemental gift of money to purchase the replacements. I'll bet on the latter because the money can quickly round-trip from the treasury to the defense contractors.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

2. Sometimes the absurdity is overwhelming.

How does anyone not "misuse" a weapon designed to kill, maim, dismember, people?

[anitar1]

3. Horsepuck. n/t

[kentuck]

7. Seems I recall...?

that the US rushed shipped those weapons to Israel just before the hostilities began? Anyone else remember that little story??

[lovuian]

8. Ya Know I do remember a story like that Wonder who

authorized that shipment??? Rumsfeld

[AlCzervik]

9. yes i remember something like, i also remember hearing about cluster bombs

in Iraq and i immediately thought about the hours of "World at War" my father used to make us watch on sundays on pbs. Cluster bombs are awful, not that any bombs are good.

[blues90]

10. I remember that well

Bush was said to have sent a rush order of these bombs to Israel right about two weeks into the bombing on Lebanon

[lovuian]

13. ooooooooohh so Bush authorized it

the problem with cluster bombs is they don't all discharge and sit waiting for any passerby to trigger it

even after a war
kinda like what Princess Diana was fighting against

before she died

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. As far as I can tell, Israel asked for a rush shipment; the State Dept held it up

Israel has asked the Bush administration to speed delivery of short-range antipersonnel rockets armed with cluster munitions, which it could use to strike Hezbollah missile sites in Lebanon, two American officials said Thursday.
...
But some State Department officials have sought to delay the approval because of concerns over the likelihood of civilian casualties, and the diplomatic repercussions. The rockets, while they would be very effective against hidden missile launchers, officials say, are fired by the dozen and could be expected to cause civilian casualties if used against targets in populated areas.
...
The United States had approved the sale of M-26’s to Israel some time ago, but the weapons had not yet been delivered when the crisis in Lebanon erupted. If the shipment is approved, Israel may be told that it must be especially careful about firing the rockets into populated areas, the senior official said.

Israel has long told American officials that it wanted M-26 rockets for use against conventional armies in case Israel was invaded, one of the American officials said. But after being pressed in recent days on what they intended to use the weapons for, Israeli officials disclosed that they planned to use them against rocket sites in Lebanon. It was this prospect that raised the intense concerns over civilian casualties.

During much of the 1980’s, the United States maintained a moratorium on selling cluster munitions to Israel, following disclosures that civilians in Lebanon had been killed with the weapons during the 1982 Israeli invasion. But the moratorium was lifted late in the Reagan administration, and since then, the United States has sold Israel some types of cluster munitions, the senior official said.

New York Times, Aug 11

In addition to investigating use of the weapons in southern Lebanon, the State Department has held up a shipment of M-26 artillery rockets, a cluster weapon, that Israel sought during the conflict, the officials said.
...
Israeli officials acknowledged soon after their offensive began last month that they were using cluster munitions against rocket sites and other military targets. While Hezbollah positions were frequently hidden in civilian areas, Israeli officials said their intention was to use cluster bombs in open terrain.

Bush administration officials warned Israel to avoid civilian casualties, but they have lodged no public protests against its use of cluster weapons. American officials say it has not been not clear whether the weapons, which are also employed by the United States military, were being used against civilian areas and had been supplied by the United States. Israel also makes its own types of cluster weapons.

But a report released Wednesday by the United Nations Mine Action Coordination Center, which has personnel in Lebanon searching for unexploded ordnance, said it had found unexploded bomblets, including hundreds of American types, in 249 locations south of the Litani River.

The report said American munitions found included 559 M-42's, an anti-personnel bomblet used in 105-millimeter artillery shells; 663 M-77's, a submunition found in M-26 rockets; and 5 BLU-63's, a bomblet found in the CBU-26 cluster bomb. Also found were 608 M-85's, an Israeli-made submunition.

New York Times, Aug 25

[shadowknows69]

11. Now I know we live in Bizarro world

n/t

[lovuian]

14. So if Bush authorized it did he go against the US law

authorizing it???

[w4rma]

15. In the long run it will only help the situation in the ME to be truthful and consistent.

Israel's government used them wrongly, therefore it should be punished. Israel, will of course remain our friend, but rules are rules.

[entanglement]

23. Don't believe anyone in Congress has the 'nads to take on the 'elephant in the room'

[gratuitous]

32. You're sadly correct

Not just Israel but American armaments, misused just the way we've misused them, and not a politician alive will stand up for what's right. And the evidence is right here in this thread, because as soon as someone says something critical of Israel, the Holocaust Victims Brigade arrives to denounce the Second Shoah. And anyone who questions the wisdom of spending more than a billion dollars a day on "defense" (while we have people starving and unable to see a doctor) is shouted down as an America-hating traitor.

[KoKo]

33. Kick..........Important.

[Holly_Hobby]

34. Cluster bombs used in "self defense"

Israel used cluster bombs in self-defense during the past summer's war in Lebanon, Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev said Sunday.

Regev's comments came in response to reports that a preliminary US State Department report found that Jerusalem violated US-Israel arms agreements governing the use of cluster bombs. Congress is expected to be briefed on the conclusions of the report this week.

"We have an open dialogue with the US," Regev said. "We have provided them with information, and tried to be as forthcoming, detailed and transparent as is possible. Our understanding is that the use of these weapons was done within the framework of self-defense in dealing with rockets designed to kill Israeli citizens."

Regev said that Israel took the American concern about this issue "very seriously," and felt it had satisfactorily replied to the US concerns. He added that outgoing Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz had ordered an internal IDF investigation into the use of the weapon as well.

...

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467833654&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[SammyWinstonJack]

36. LOL! Seriesly?

:silly:

[lovuian]

37. It will be interesting to see what Congress says

I'll be waiting to hear...

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

38. Didn't the US use cluster bombs in Iraq?

I seem to recall TV News interviews of Arab people on the ground in the early days of the invasion of Iraq, with the people describing what could only be cluster bombs. I seem to recall one particularly aggrieved mother describing the death of her son outdoors. If the US did use cluster bombs in populated portions of Baghdad, then the Bush Administration comes with unclean hands into this debate. Of course it doesn't excuse Israel's use of these bombs, but maybe the US set a very bad example and their failure to restrain themselves from the use of cluster bombs in Iraq was taken to be a green light by the Israelis.

My impression is that perhaps ChimpCo not only knew beforehand that Israel would be using these weapons but that they tacitly approved and authorized it. But at the time they didn't count on the fact that eventually they'd be dealing with a legislative branch controlled by the other party that wanted questions answered.

This is one of many stories reporting the use of cluster bombs by the US in populated areas in Iraq.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/04/01/usint5475.htm

[Supersedeas]

41. U.S. Congress challenged by its contacts with the Israeli Lobby