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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 08:45 PM
Original message
Poll question: Should the Founding Fathers "free thought" philosophies be required teaching
Edited on Sun Jan-28-07 09:26 PM by Quixote1818
in public schools?

Well, this is going to be a push poll but I would love to see our new Democratic congress bring up a bill that requires public schools to teach the philosophies and ideas that our country is founded upon. For instance, I would love to see the Age of Enlightenment taught, and the ideas of men like Descartes, Voltaire, Bacon and Locke. Teach children how these ideas influenced our founding Fathers and our founding documents. I think this is desperately needed to bring back things like critical thinking and a REAL value in science, reason and free thought!

These are values our country almost permanently lost had the Republicans continued to stay in power. We are hanging by a thread right now and something needs to be done to enlighten children to the importance of these truly American ideas! There is no ONE issue I feel more strongly about than this!


If you agree, how can we make this happen?

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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. A No-Brainer.
Shouldn't be able to graduate without knowledge!
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. They should teach it using torture
Lock all the kids in to boxes, and tie them up so they can't move, and play recordings
of the works of voltaire until the school day is over, over and over, until they show
neruotic symptoms of fear whenever they hear the word 'philosophy'.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. And you've got a box they can use... n/t
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. this box shows the way


:evilgrin:
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Lautremont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. The required teaching of free thought?
There's an interesting concept. Why did you spell it "philosophy's"?
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. what about the kids who refuse to be taught?
What about the kids who reject corporatism?
What about the kids who reject violence and war?

Those kids needs be taught; yes, molded and fixed.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. In place of the pledge, I favor a "Constitution Minute" every morning.
Read from the Constitution every day.

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jakem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
7. Very Allan Bloom of you...
However, the point is not just to indoctrinate (though some of this is fine and inevitable), but to teach students HOW to think.
That is unless you are just trying to raise a new generation of worker-drones.

{And the ones who fail of course will end up in Iraq anyway...}
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Critical thinking
When the far right started meddling with the school curriculum that was the first thing to go.
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. There has always been plenty of indoctrination going on schools,
although rote memorization and lack of critical thinking is probably more prevalent today.

Lyrics from one of my favorite Tom Paxton songs:
http://www.mydfz.com/Paxton/lyrics/wdylis.htm

What Did You Learn in School Today?
Words and Music by Tom Paxton

What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
I learned that Washington never told a lie.
I learned that soldiers seldom die.
I learned that everybody's free.
And that's what the teacher said to me.
That's what I learned in school today.
That's what I learned in school.

What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
I learned that policemen are my friends.
I learned that justice never ends.
I learned that murderers die for their crimes.
Even if we make a mistake sometimes.
That's what I learned in school today.
That's what I learned in school.

What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
I learned our government must be strong.
It's always right and never wrong.
Our leaders are the finest men.
And we elect them again and again.
That's what I learned in school today.
That's what I learned in school.

What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
I learned that war is not so bad.
I learned of the great ones we have had.
We fought in Germany and in France.
And some day I might get my chance.
That's what I learned in school today.
That's what I learned in school.

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SanCristobal Donating Member (303 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. "And the ones who fail of course will end up in Iraq anyway..."
Hired Kerry's joke writer? :D
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. You can lead a horse to water...
I'm not sure it is possible to really teach individuality, and free thought. I can see critical thinking drills, etc., but I don't really know how far you can go with them.

I am beginning to think that there are simply individuals that are incapable of complex thought.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. We just need to bring back a certain percent to help get things back on track.
nt
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
12. I disagree. I don't think that it is right to push the Enlightenment on the students...
any more than it would be to push the teachings of medieval scholastic thought upon them.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. You don't tell them they have to believe it. You teach them how if influenced
Edited on Sun Jan-28-07 09:29 PM by Quixote1818
the founding fathers and our founding documents. Those are historical facts.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. But it is still presenting it out of the context of various philosophical systems.
Which gives it an advantage over, say Dialectical Materialism, because it has been instituted as the official philosophy of the state by the fact that it is taught while the others are left ignored. These subjects should be the province of the students' parents.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. We will just have to agree to disagree
I think you have to stick to the facts that occurred in history and if you bring in every possible philosophy then all hell would break lose. I have no problem with a required philosophy class that teaches all other philosophy's and perhaps a comparative religion class. Chances are this won't ever happen because it's too difficult to keep everyone happy.

My guess is that the Religious Right will never allow this to happen anyway. They would go ballistic even though it's history. I hope someone tries anyway.

At least they could require something like Thomas Jefferson's letter to his Nephew Peter Carr about Philosophy and Religion:



3. Moral Philosophy. I think it lost time to attend lectures on this branch. He who made us would have been a pitiful bungler, if he had made the rules of our moral conduct a matter of science. For one man of science, there are thousands who are not. What would have become of them? Man was destined for society. His morality, therefore, was to be formed to this object. He was endowed with a sense of right and wrong, merely relative to this. This sense is as much a part of his nature, as the sense of hearing, seeing, feeling; it is the true foundation of morality, and not the "to kalon" (Greek: The beautiful), truth, &c., as fanciful writers have imagined. The moral sense, or conscience, is as much a part of man as his leg or arm. It is given to all human beings in a stronger or weaker degree, as force of members is given them in a greater or less degree. It may be strengthened by exercise, as may any particular limb of the body. This sense is submitted, indeed, in some degree, to the guidance of reason; but it is a small stock which is required for this: even a less one than what we call common sense. State a moral case to a ploughman and a professor. The former will decide it as well, and often better than the latter, because he has not been led astray by artificial rules. In this branch, therefore, read good books, because they will encourage, as well as direct your feelings. The writings of Sterne, particularly, form the best course of morality that ever was written. Besides these, read the books mentioned in the enclosed paper; and, above all things, lose no occasion of exercising your dispositions to be grateful, to be generous, to be charitable, to be humane, to be true, just, firm, orderly, courageous, &c. Consider every act of this kind, as an exercise which will strengthen your moral faculties and increase your worth.

4. Religion. Your reason is now mature enough to examine this object. In the first place, divest yourself of all bias in favor of novelty and singularity of opinion. Indulge them in any other subject rather than that of religion. It is too important, and the consequences of error may be too serious. On the other hand, shake off all the fears and servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. You will naturally examine first, the religion of your own country. Read the Bible, then as you would read Livy or Tacitus. The facts which are within the ordinary course of nature, you will believe on the authority of the writer, as you do those of the same kind in Livy and Tacitus. The testimony of the writer weighs in their favor, in one scale, and their not being against the laws of nature, does not weigh against them. But those facts in the Bible which contradict the laws of nature, must be examined with more care, and under a variety of faces. Here you must recur to the pretensions of the writer to inspiration from God. Examine upon what evidence his pretensions are founded, and whether that evidence is so strong, as that its falsehood would be more improbable than a change in the laws of nature, in the case he relates. For example, in the book of Joshua, we are told, the sun stood still several hours. Were we to read that fact in Livy or Tacitus, we should class it with their showers of blood, speaking of statues, beasts, etc. But it is said, that the writer of that book was inspired. Examine, therefore, candidly, what evidence there is of his having been inspired. The pretension is entitled to your inquiry, because millions believe it. On the other hand, you are astronomer enough to know how contrary it is to the law of nature that a body revolving on its axis, as the earth does, should have stopped, should not, by that sudden stoppage, have prostrated animals, trees, buildings, and should after a certain time gave resumed its revolution, and that without a second general prostration. Is this arrest of the earth's motion, or the evidence which affirms it, most within the law of probabilities? You will next read the New Testament. It is the history of a personage called Jesus. Keep in your eye the opposite pretensions: 1, of those who say he was begotten by God, born of a virgin, suspended and reversed the laws of nature at will, and ascended bodily into heaven; and 2, of those who say he was a man of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, enthusiastic mind, who set out without pretensions to divinity, ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition, by being gibbeted, according to the Roman law, which punished the first commission of that offence by whipping, and the second by exile, or death "in furea"....

Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you. If you find reason to believe there is a God, a consciousness that you are acting under his eye, and that he approves you, will be a vast additional incitement; if that there be a future state, the hope of a happy existence in that increases the appetite to deserve it; if that Jesus was also a God, you will be comforted by a belief of his aid and love. In fine, I repeat, you must lay aside all prejudice on both sides, and neither believe nor reject anything, because any other persons, or description of persons, have rejected or believed it. Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven, and you are answerable, not for the rightness, but uprightness of the decision. I forgot to observe, when speaking of the New Testament, that you should read all the histories of Christ, as well of those whom a council of ecclesiastics have decided for us, to be Pseudo-evangelists, as those they named Evangelists. Because these Pseudo-evangelists pretended to inspiration, as much as the others, and you are to judge their pretensions by your own reason, and not by the reason of those ecclesiastics. Most of these are lost. There are some, however, still extant, collected by Fabricius, which I will endeavor to get and send you.

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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. See this Wes Clark video
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. I agree = perhaps better is a HS Senior survey course on Western thought from Plato to Moses to
Jesus, Augustine, Aquinas, Hume, Spinoza, Voltaire, Kant, Hegel, Marx, and many more.

On second thought, make that a 2 year course.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
16. LOL - Did rise of nation state control of the individual & pantheism/Spinoza's Ethics lead to Volta
Edited on Sun Jan-28-07 10:12 PM by papau
LOL - Did rise of nation state control of the individual & pantheism/Spinoza's Ethics lead to Voltaire/Rousseau/Paine/Kant? - 20 pages by a week from Friday

That would be a writing assignment for what public school grade?
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Kinder?
:P
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. :-) Plato's city state government vs eastern and western religious view of the state is due when?
Edited on Sun Jan-28-07 10:33 PM by papau
:-)
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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
22. required reading
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
23. There will be no critical thought in my classroom!
Edited on Mon Jan-29-07 07:49 PM by lwfern
... In Florida this last summer, Jeb Bush signed new legislation affecting how history can be taught in public schools. The new law says that “American history shall be viewed as factual, not as constructed, shall be viewed as knowable, teachable, and testable, and shall be defined as the creation of a new nation based largely on the universal principles stated in the Declaration of Independence.”

(snip)

... This recent legislation, however, is alarming in that it propels teachers into the role of government spokespeople by outlawing constructivist methods to teach history. Teachers are no longer allowed to facilitate student inquiry into the motives behind our government’s past actions. Teachers aren’t supposed to encourage public school students to look for connections between different events in our history, and reflect on those patterns to construct their own meaning or form their own opinions. ...


http://www.insurgentamerican.net/analysis/construction-zones/

:)

Personally, I'd rather see Howard Zinn become mandatory reading.
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