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BlueStorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 11:08 PM
Original message
Christians sue GR pagan group over right to free speech...
For lack of a better title.

I just got this e-mail from the group who put together this annual Pagan Pride day. Apparently there was a clash between some Christian fundies and the organizers. Of course the article linked below is from the Alliance Defense Fund which is a religious right group. However following the article is a letter from the group mail by someone who was actually there.

http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/news/story.aspx?cid=3990

GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. — An Alliance Defense Fund allied attorney has filed suit on behalf of a group of Christians who were denied the right to publicly express a religious message. David Ickes and seven other members of the Worldwide Street Preachers’ Fellowship were silenced by police after attempting to speak in a public park in Grand Rapids.

“It is truly disturbing when those charged with upholding the law disregard or do not understand the First Amendment rights of citizens,” said ADF-allied attorney Randall Wenger of the Lancaster, Pa., law firm Clymer & Musser, P.C. “The officers in this situation acted in violation of the Constitution when they chose to silence those who were simply exercising their free speech rights.”

On Sept. 23, Ickes and others attempted to address attendees of the Pagan Pride Festival at Richmond Hills Park. The group spoke using a small wooden platform but did not use amplification equipment. A Grand Rapids Police sergeant informed Ickes that a permit was required for their activities and claimed they were disturbing the peace. One group member was forcefully pulled from the platform by a second sergeant, handcuffed, and detained in the back of a police vehicle.


Here is the letter in the group mail:

"This happened at last years' Grand Rapids Pagan Pride Day. See article below.
http://www.alliance defensefund. org/news/ story.aspx? cid=3990
From what I am told, the Christians surrounded a young girl and had her in tears from their harassment, shouted invectives at passers-by, used other hate-speech, proselytized after being politely told "no thank you" which amounts to assault, used amplification equipment in the parking lot, and disrupted the merchanting area, workshops and religious ceremonies. They had their "platform" there without paying the merchanting fee. From what I also hear, GR PPD's organizers had permits for the exclusive use of the park. They had paid money and had insurance, where the Xians did not. The police were acting in the best interest of the public.
If you attended this event, I urge you to get ahold of the GR city parks department and volunteer to testify or write letters on their behalf. Tell the truth about what really happened. Contact the press. Xians have the right to free speech, but they do not have the right to harass, swear at people, verbally or physically assault people, disrupt an event, or other hateful behavior."

I have been told the same by some of my pagan friends who attended the event and they told me that this particular group of fundies were quite disruptive and even someone got arrested. They also distributed flyers in the parking lot and left them on cars.

Isn't it funny how Fundies scream about their rights when they won't do the same for others?

Blue

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rpgamerd00d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. No Permit. Case Closed.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. Agreed
No merchanting fee. Civil disobedience?
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Maybe not so simple.
This is not "David Icke" (the lizard guy). He is not a member of "Worldwide Street Preachers’ Fellowship"

(AgapePress) - A federal district court judge has ruled that actions designed to prevent two Christians from preaching and proselytizing near a homosexual event in a Pennsylvania city park were unconstitutional restrictions of free speech. The declaratory judgment follows a jury's similar finding last December regarding one of the men's subsequent arrest during a 2003 "Pridefest" event in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

Prior to the arrest of Pastor Jim Grove, he and Repent America leader Michael Marcavage were prevented from making contact with or preaching to people entering Riverfront Park for the Pridefest celebration while they were inside a permitted festival area that was not being used at the time. Police also tried to enforce an imaginary 50-foot no-speech zone against the two men to keep them away from the homosexual event.
... more
http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/5/122006c.asp

http://www.paulding.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=92528

But they are equal opportunity harassers...
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/16132/lds-conference-free-speech-zones

They are looking for law suits. They have sued before and will sue again. Is that a racket? Blackmail?

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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. since the fundies religion is pretty much stolen from pagans and pre-christians nt
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. true that. nt.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. Though There Probably Was Harrassment, The Email You Referenced Was Still Hearsay.
I didn't get from the email that they were there at all.

But I'm sure they probably were harassing etc.. I just wish I had a factual account to go by to determine whether or not the right to free speech was in fact violated (since if they crossed certain lines, it no longer would be).
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
5. Wonder what these Christian Groups
would say if the Pagan group walked into their church yard and started to address the crowd. I have nothing against Christians or Pagans. Everyone is entitled to worship as they please. Didn't the Pilgrims come to this country for religious freedom. Seems like the right wing nuts we have in this country today must be desended from Cotton Mather.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
23. yes and no...
They came for freedom to practice ~their~ religion. But they had no intention of coming here to start a new world with religious freedom for everyone in fact they were heavy on Evangelism.

Rhode Island was formed when Massachusetts banished Roger Williams for his religious beliefs.

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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
6. David Ickes? The "Lizard-People Secretly Control the World" Guy?
David Ickes? The "Lizard-People Secretly Control the World" Guy?

Surely this is an unrelated lunatic, one whom just happens to have similar beliefs?
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. OMFG, he really does think lizards run the world
I thought you were joking! :rofl:

From Wikipedia:

<snip>

At the heart of Icke's theories is the view that the world is ruled by a secret group called the "Global Elite" or "Illuminati," which he has linked to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, an anti-Semitic hoax. In 1999, he published The Biggest Secret, in which he wrote that the Illuminati are a race of reptilian humanoids known as the Babylonian Brotherhood, and that many prominent figures are reptilian, including George W. Bush, Queen Elizabeth II, Kris Kristofferson, and Boxcar Willie.

<snip>

The reptilian group includes many prominent people and practically every world leader from Britain's late Queen Mother to George H.W. Bush, Hillary Clinton, Harold Wilson, and Tony Blair. These people are either themselves reptilian, or work for the reptiles as what Icke calls slave-like victims of multiple personality disorder: "The Rothschilds, Rockefellers, the British royal family, and the ruling political and economic families of the U.S. and the rest of the world come from these SAME bloodlines. It is not because of snobbery, it is to hold as best they can a genetic structure — the reptilian-mammalian DNA combination which allows them to 'shape-shift'."


:wow: :wow: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
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BlueStorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I am not sure if that is the same David Ickes...
But if it is, WTF was he doing in GR?

Blue
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-28-07 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. You might be right
The guy in the story is David Ickes, the lizard guy is David Icke. But still, David Icke believes that extraterrestreal lizards have interbred with humans and rule the world behind the scenes!

That's worth a :wtf: in my book! :rofl:
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BlueStorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. WTF? Extraterristrial lizard people?!
Is that guy serious?

But then again, the way some of our "leaders" act, it is quite questionable.

Blue
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. There are MILLIONS of people who believe this shit
Millions.

David Ickes might be the reason I first seriously questioned Christianity as my religion.
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DerBeppo Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. millions voted repub too.
doesn't mean they're not crazy.
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. No argument here.
Then again, I think many people could be persuaded to vote Republican and not be crazy. There's the misguided, the easily led, the single issue voters, etc.

Then again, maybe "voting Republican," "George Bush is a great president," and "believing that extraterrestrial lizard-people conspiratorially control the world" aren't that much different paradigms?
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. It's possible. Once, when I was a member of a RW militia...
It's possible that it was the same David Icke(s). Once, when I was a member of a right wing militia, there were people who really believed that Bill Clinton was a lizard person and had developed a whole pseudo-Christian mythology around the Reptilians (or whatever they're called). Apparently, according to http://www.davidicke.com/index.php/">David Ickes, Jesus Christ was sent here by God to delver us from the Lizard People. Don't ask me, I just report it. There are millions of people out there who BELIEVE this shit.

And, for the record, I was only a member of a right wing militia because I was their son's pot dealer. To be 18 or 19 again; what a magical year in a young man's life...
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. Wtf
Is this the same guy, sounds like he needs to up his dosage.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. That's his problem
his 'dose' was a little to high,if you know what I mean.
I have seen the lizard people myself.Of course,my 'dose' was pretty damned heavy duty,too.
I'm not the only one either.http://www.google.com/search?q=%22fear+and+loathing+in+las+vegas%22%2B%22lounge+lizards%22&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&start=0&sa=N
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. The Lizard-People guy
is David Icke . no 's'. I had to look twice.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
12. Fuck the ADF
Free speech is one thing, using it to harrass and attack members of another faith, especially pagans, is as far as I'm concerned uncalled for. They can sue all they want, those fuckers have no idea what real persecution is.
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dad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 03:07 AM
Response to Original message
20. Grand Rapids, where the atheists run free
Way to go GR, tell those Christians you don't want their kind around here!!
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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 06:52 AM
Response to Original message
21. I hate street preachers. Has anyone ever seen one spouting a non-fundie message?
They stand around, twist the teachings of Christ, and spew hate like it's going out of style. Sickening.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
24. That kind of crap is not okay, and I'm sorry for those harrassed.
Grand Rapids is an odd city. It's the home of a couple of churches' headquarters, Zondervan publishing (Bibles and church materials for evangelicals, mostly), and a couple of Christian colleges. It's also Michigan's second-largest city with a decent-sized non-Christian population. Still, the right-wingers act like they own the town.

Even Kalamazoo, far more liberal and just down the road, has had trouble during their festivals. *sigh* Why can't they just leave people alone? I used to be an evangelical, and even I never liked that kind of crap.
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