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Why do I get trashed on DU every time I talk about Latin America?

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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 02:38 AM
Original message
Why do I get trashed on DU every time I talk about Latin America?
Edited on Mon Jan-29-07 02:38 AM by Hippo_Tron
On threads here I have suggested that Fidel Castro's economic system isn't the best course for the Cuban people. People automatically assume that this means I think that the Batista regime should be brought back and that the US should have economic control over Cuba and the rest of Latin America.

I don't know how many times I have to say this but I DO NOT SUPPORT RIGHT WING REGIMES IN LATIN AMERICA and I don't support the US propping them up for our own economic purposes.

Here is what I have pointed out. Cubans risk their lives to come over to America to improve their standard of living. If the standard of living under Castro were great then I don't see why Cubans would come to the United States.

YES, I am aware that we give them assistance once they get here. YES, I am aware that people in Haiti make a far longer and dangerous journey knowing that they won't get any assistance once they get here. I don't deny that conditions in Haiti are far worse than conditions in Cuba. That doesn't mean that conditions in Cuba are wonderful.

Now, all that I have suggested is that Cubans could improve their standard of living if they adopt a mixed market system that isn't controlled by the United States and by multinational corporations. Cubans could develop their own businesses and their own markets while still keeping some of the better elements of socialism like universal health care. I understand that people may be opposed to this idea, but every time I propose it instead of debating with me, people attack me and accuse me of supporting right wing regimes.

Can we have serious discussion about Latin America or is everybody who has some criticism of Fidel Castro a right winger?
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 02:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. How much of Cuba's economic condtion can be ascribed to the US embargo?
What percentage of Cubans are homeless? without health care? How big are their landfills? What percentage of the population is in prison? At what rate are people given the death penalty? Are Cubans killing and being killed in some country on the other side of the planet?

If Wal*Mart opened 50 stores in Cuba, would that make their "economic condition" better?

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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Again, please read my post more carefully
What I suggested was quite far from Wal Mart opening 50 stores in Cuba. Again, I suggested that Cuba should develop its own businesses not let US businesses have free reign in Cuba. And while the US embargo doesn't help, there are plenty of other places that Cuba could trade with but they don't.

You still haven't addressed the fact that people risk their lives to flee to the United States which suggests that the standard of living in Cuba is not as great as some make it out to be.

And if I were happy with the status quo in the United States I would've voted Republican last November.
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
2. I have much criticism of him, left or right wing dictator. Can't see it makes a difference.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 02:55 AM
Response to Original message
3. Latin America is far more than Cuba
Uh, the real Latin America seems to be swinging Hard Left..... I'm not sure what your post is really about.
:shrug:
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Cuba was an example, one that is debated often on DU
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 03:01 AM
Response to Original message
6. Ignorance may be part of the reason.
Cuba is not Latin America. But even Cuba has as good a health care record as the US at 1/10th the cost. Maybe the "for the people" ideal works better there than here, unless you consider wars of aggression and income disparity "a good thing."
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Did you read my post, because I think you didn't
I said very clearly I think that Cuba should keep its universal health care, and frankly I think the United States should adopt it. Again, you still haven't addressed why Cubans risk their lives to come to the United States and then don't seem to have complaints once they get here. We do provide them with assistance but certainly not with a sports car and a mansion.

And Cuba was an example because we have the same discussion for other parts of Latin America as well.
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
7. There's a profound ignorance about Latin America in DU...
And some people think it is all either black or white, and it is not.

On the other hand, there are a few people here that know quite a lot about the region, but most do not.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. The problem comes in: that both parties have treated cuba, et al, the same
Clinton was in power, what - 8 years? And what has changed in relation to cuba???

Dems are in power now to some extent - and what will change? I am betting not a damned thing.

Hard to effect change when both parties are against it. And then one has to wonder why they are...
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. You are totally right...
And even though Clinton was way more progressive toward Latin America than Bush and previous Republican administrations, the truth is he also took some pretty non-progressive stands, like allowing arms sales to Latin American countries again.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
9. It's probably a reflection of discomfort with the U.S. history towards Cuba
Some of us (at times I'm in that group) feel that U.S. citizens don't really have any right to criticize Cuba given our country's imperial history there. I feel ambivalent about that myself.

There is also the concern about letting the Miami exiles come back and throw their weight around. It would be better if they just decided to focus on being Americans and working for a better life here.

For myself, I think it would be far more important to democratize Cuba's existing system and, for example, give Cuba's workers and rank-and-file Communist Party members a real say in governance there, rather than the existing top-down command structure.

I am sorry if you yourself get "hammered". It's unfortunate when the debate gets that personal.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I agree completely
I know that the US has an ugly history with Cuba and an even uglier history in other countries. I'm simply looking for a middle ground between the top down command structure that you speak of in Cuba and US control.

I haven't studied that much economics but everything I have studied suggests that states can be very successful adopting mixed market systems if their trade practices actually benefit all parties and not just the bigger economic power seeking to control them.

Personally, I think the biggest threat to US control over the world is the rest of the world developing their own liberal markets but doing so without having to borrow money from us. Look at China. They liberalized their markets and are now sitting on our currency. As soon as they decide to cash in and do something with it the dollar will plummet and the US will be wishing that Mao was still in power.

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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. We have an ugly history period, don't we, for the most part?
I sometimes wonder if the World wouldn't have been better off it America have never been? :shrug:
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. I'm not sure if any historian could definitively answer that question
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 03:24 AM
Response to Original message
11. Most Cubans do not risk their lives to come to the US
the statement "Cubans do not risk their lives to come over to America to improve their standard of living."

is more true than

"Cubans risk their lives to come over to America to improve their standard of living."

The economy of Cuba does not depend on Cuban economic policies alone, as you might well know. There's this thing called economic sanctions.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Edit: I misread your post
Edited on Mon Jan-29-07 03:29 AM by Hippo_Tron
While most Cubans don't risk their lives to come over the the United States, there are many that certainly do which is evidence that they seek to improve their standard of living or that they want to live in a free society.

And while the US has an embargo on Cuba there are plenty of other countries that they could trade with.
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everythingsxen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
14. Castro and Chavez are the greatest and best leaders ever
The droning hive of DU has finally convinced me that despite that both are autocratic fascists, it's ok because it's democratic.
:sarcasm:

I wonder how many people on DU would approve of a parallel between Chavez and Bush -- if post 911 when Bush had, what 80% approval at least in Congress, they had passed an act allowing Bush to rule by decree, people would be screaming, yet when Chavez does it with 60% he is frigging democratic hero.

The short answer is there are too many reactionary idiots on DU who attack without thinking.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. They DID pass "an act allowing Bush to rule by decree"--in fact several of
them. The Patriot Act. The Iraq War Resolution. And (with Bush's standing at about 35%), laws suspending the right of habeas corpus, and permitting torture. These laws allow Bush--one man, acting in secrecy--to decide who can be arrested and detained indefinitely without charge, including American citizens; they permit Bush, on his own decision, to suspend virtually every right guaranteed by the Constitution and the Geneva Conventions. And they permitted Bush to invade another country, for no cause, and without receiving a declaration of war from Congress, and to slaughter 100,000 innocent people in the initial bombing alone, and to continue to kill and torture people, and occupy their country. And Bush has furthermore construed these laws--and invented his own "laws"--to mean that he can do anything he damn pleases, including adding "signing statements' to bills passed by Congress stating that the laws don't apply to him and his junta.

Show me the Patriot Act in Venezuela. Show me the Iraq War Resolution in Venezuela. Show me the "signing statements" in Venezuela. Show me a single act of aggression that has been committed by, or even threatened by, the government of Venezuela, against any country or person.

Poll: Venezuelans Have Highest Regard for Their Democracy
Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006
By: Gregory Wilpert - Venezuelanalysis.com
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=2179

You are conflating Castro, a man who gained power by armed revolution, with Chavez, a man who gained power by being elected to office by 61% of the voters of his country, in elections that are the most closely monitored on earth (--by the OAS, the Carter Center and EU monitoring groups). Furthermore, in Venezuela, they hand-count FIFTY-FIVE PERCENT of the votes, cuz they don't trust the machines. (Know how much we handcount?) There is simply no comparison between Castro and Chavez. And, frankly, there is no comparison between Chavez and Bush. Chavez is acting in the interests of the people of his country, and with their consent, and Bush is not.

The "laws by decree" power that the National Assembly of Venezuela (which is also elected in fair and aboveboard elections) voted to give Chavez all pertain to the FURTHER democratization of Venezuela, aimed at INCREASING citizen participation in government, improving economic equity, and eliminating corruption. They are a very limited set of decrees. They are NOT laws that suspend anybody's human or civil rights. They are NOT laws that permit discretionary war. They are NOT laws that permit spying, or secrecy, or "signing statements." And, furthermore, the "laws by decree" have been used before by other Venezuelan presidents. They are NOT some sort of unprecedented power. They are much more like the powers that Franklin Delano Roosevelt was given by the U.S. Congress in the early 1930s to reconstruct the U.S. economy after the super-rich had destroyed it, sending millions into stark poverty. The rightwing in the U.S. called Social Security, unemployment insurance, the CCC jobs projects, fair taxation, and other New Deal measures DICTATORIAL! Yup, it was "dictatorial" against the rich elite who had destroyed the country!

The situation of the U.S. during the Great Depression is very similar to the situation in Venezuela and throughout South America now. The super-rich--that is, global corporate predators based in the United States of America, in collusion with highly corrupt local rich elites--have destroyed the economies of South America, sending millions into stark poverty. And THAT is why, country after country are now electing LEFTIST (majorityist) governments, to try to REPAIR the damage--in Brazil, in Argentina, in Venezuela, in Bolivia, in Ecuador, in Chile, in Uruguay, in Nicaragua, and soon in Peru and Paraguay (where big leftist movements are under way). These governments are very similar to FDR's New Deal government.

In this context, Castro and Cuba are revered--not because of their lack of democracy, but because they, in their own way--through armed revolution and communism--PREVENTED the impoverishment of their people, which has ravaged the rest of the Latin America. They stopped it, cold--by eliminating capitalism. In Cuba, everyone has food; everyone has a decent life; everyone has a free education, through university and higher degrees like medicine. No one can get rich and no one can starve. There is no country in South America--including Venezuela--that wants communism. If they did--and it was freely chosen, by fair and honest votes of the people--I would not oppose it. Who is to say that democracy equals capitalism? It doesn't. But they don't want it. They want mixed socialist/capitalist economies with strong components of social justice. In other words, South Americans are making THEIR OWN judgments of what is right for them. Not dictated by the U.S. They see things that are admirable in Cuba. They are not following the Cuban model--which evolved in an earlier era, amidst horrendous oppression by U.S.-supported fascist elites.

I am continually shocked at the lack of information and lack of understanding of South America's economic condition and politics--and culture--by my fellow North Americans, including some posters here at DU. I am shocked at the kneejerk attitudes, right out of Bush's State Department echoed by our war profiteering corporate new monopolies, that are rattling around in peoples' heads. But I don't "attack" anybody for this. Why? Because I have holes in my knowledge, too. Back in the '80s, for instance, I was unaware that TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND Mayan Indians were being slaughtered in Guatemala because they were LEFTISTS, with the direct complicity of our own president, Ronald Reagan. I knew some leftists and peasants had been killed there, and that the U.S. backed the dictator had done it. I had no idea of the magnitude of the crime, which has since been revealed in a "truth and reconciliation" process sponsored by the UN. I'm shocked at MYSELF. I thought I was a well-informed person.

So I would urge this: Seek information from alternative sources. (A good one on Venezuela is www.venezualanalysis.com.) Don't trust the corporate news monopolies. And, for God's sake, don't trust Bush. In fact, you can just about guarantee that ANYTHING Bush is against is probably good, and anything he or his junta are promoting is probably very, very bad. That's a good starting premise, anyway.

I hate to see people taken in by the corporate news monopolies. They are really bad dudes, you know. They lie all the time--most especially about South America. Outright frigging lies. And if you know who they really are--that 5 rightwing billionaire CEO's control all news and opinion in this country--then you understand why. The words you see in the WSJ, the WP, the NYT, in AP articles, and the words and images throughout TV and radio--are being controlled by 5 rightwing billionaire CEOs, who have neither your interests at heart, nor those of anyone else in the world. They don't want you, a U.S. citizen and voter, to know what they are doing in the world, and where they get their billions from, because you have considerable potential power, in conjunction with other U.S. voters, of REGULATING them and curtailing their ungodly profits, and even pulling their corporate charters and denying them a license to use the public airwaves. Understand their reasons for lying to you, and you will begin to see through their lies. They lied to you about Guatemala. They never told you that Reagan had colluded in the slaughter of 200,000 Mayan Indians. They lied to you about Iraq. And they are lying to about Hugo Chavez.

Don't ever go kneejerk the other way, either. Leftists made this mistake about Stalin back in the old days--hung onto the dream of the Proletarian Revolution long after Stalin had taken it over and become a dictator. Armed revolution is not a pretty thing, and not a preferable way to change a country. (We had one here, though--never forget!) And NO politician is to be trusted. That, to me, is the very definition of democracy. Anyone in power must be watched like a hawk. Openness is the key. Transparency. Is Chavez open and aboveboard? It sure looks like it to me--and the Venezuelans (who, in my opinion, are true lovers of democracy) seem to think so, too. They have repeatedly endorsed him and entrusted him with power. There are lots of eyes and ears on government activity. (And the press in Venezuela is rabidly anti-Chavez--totally corporate controlled.) Is Bush open and aboveboard? Absolutely not. There has never been a more secretive regime in the U.S. (nor a more lapdog press protecting Bush secrecy.) Is Castro open and aboveboard? In some ways yes, in many ways no. It seems to be a government by general consent--but not a democracy. But Castro's lack of openness does not seem to be for the purpose of making Castro or his colleagues rich, nor to engage in excesses (like torture, or plotting war). It's a mixed bag. The Cubans seemed to have lucked out, in having a dictatorship that is fairly benign and has benefited most people. But peoples' welfare should not be dependent on the luck of the draw. Without transparency and real democracy, you can almost guarantee that most people will not benefit, and that serious abuses will occur.

I am not a Chavez worshiper. I am trying to see through the fog of lies from the Bushites and their news media, to what is really going, in Venezuela and other places. If Chavez turns dictatorial--a temptation that ANY leader can succumb to--I would not hesitate to denounce him. I hate dictators. Democracy is my religion--not leader worship. And one more thing that seems to be neglected. The Bolivarian Revolution does not belong to Chavez. It is a grass roots movement, driven by ordinary people--especially by the vast poor population and the indigenous of South America. If Chavez--or any leader--betrays this great democracy movement, for personal gain or aggrandizement--I would wish to see them exposed, and would make every effort to do so. I have no mercy for betrayers of democracy, whether they are Bushites, Democrats or Bolivarians.






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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 04:08 AM
Response to Original message
15. Cuba should move towards market socialism with the state commanding the heights of the economy
Heavy industries and industries vital to the national security of the island nation should still be state-run; however, in the secondary and tertiary sectors of the economy, state-run monopolies should be broken up and handed over to workers and reorganized as worker co-ops.

The worker co-ops would be supported by a system of public banks. The reasoning is that if the resources belong to everybody, then a particular firm that wishes to utilize the common resources of the people must pay a "fee" or a capital assets tax. The revenue generated by this tax would then fuel the public banks, and the community branches of these banks, run by their respective communities, would use the revenue to fund the establishment of new businesses and co-ops and expand existing industry.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
16. Americans seem to have an unhealthy obsession
about what THEY think other countries should or shouldn't do... :shrug:
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
19. You (and I) get trashed because we don't buy into the cult of Saints Fidel/Hugo/Che/AMLO
Edited on Mon Jan-29-07 10:26 AM by UTUSN
The trashers are a tightly knit, cohesive little group who have a certain amount of ready talking points.

They follow a well established pattern:

1) You (or I) say something (our opinion) about the afore-named saints. Notice that we are not PERSONALLY ATTACKING the cultists in those opinions: Something like "I am against totalitarianism whether of the Right OR of the Left." Pretty innocuous, eh?

2) They blast back, minimally demanding LINKS for every little detail: WHEN did Saint Hugo DEMAND a 25 year term of office?"

3) I Google. Usually the first link contains the info. I give them the link. This sets off the NEXT round of coordinated attack: "Oh, the Dallas Morning Saturn!!1 It's a Right wing RAG! Andres OPPENHEIMER is a CIA operative!!1 OH, the ASSOCIATED PRESS is a Right wing mouthpiece!!1"

4) Then the younger, less sophisticated flying monkies take over with their name calling: "Yep, the DLC CORPORATIST CAPITALISTS are out in force!!1"


I don't know the history of Venezuela or Cuba. I know that BATISTA was a wingnut THUG. I am equally against the hardline Exiles, the CIA wingnuts, the oligarchic wingnut dictators as I am these of the LEFT!!1

If you multiply my agony of living under RAYGUN and the BUSHes---and the distinct possibility that Jeb Crow Shrub might succeed to power---by a factor of a HUNDRED, this is what I imagine having to live under Saints Fidel and Hugo-----BRUITING their decrees and whims: FOR THEIR OWN EFFING BENEFIT.

Evita PERON was an effing Fascist. She based her cult on her giving away paper cash right off the printing press to hundreds of beggars every day. Not to mention issuing decrees and whims (read, "RESTRICTIONS"). Same thing with whatever "benefits" the current saints OF THE LEFT do.

I also do not worship royalty or JFK or other such PERSONALITIES. (JFK's irresponsibility and recklessness led to the various crises of his term.)

http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
20. What should Cuba do? Well, after trying to assassinate their leader
a number of times, after trying to invade them, after badmouthing them for 40 years, and slamming them with economic sanctions--a country that has done no one else any harm, with a government that seems to be benefiting most people (the crime of all crimes to the Bushites and Corporatists), I don't know that we have much right to give Cuba advice. But the advice that you give, Hippo-Tran, is very close, I think, to the advice that is being given internally, and that Raul Castro and others will follow. Liberalize the economy. Don't jettison the benefits of the Cuban revolution--universal health care, free education through university and higher degrees, food, housing and a decent life for all--but create some space for the better aspects of business and trade (creativity, innovation, product development, job creation). It's not bad advice at all. However, with the menace of the Bush Junta looming over them, and their colluders in the Cuban Mafia in Florida, it is risky. Open up Cuba, and the Bush-controlled CIA will enter (and, frankly, I'm not sure our Democrats will be any better, on this one). Rich gangsters and fascists could gain a foothold. Also, drug warlords.

What I heard, in some BBC interviews, was that Raul Castro was going to liberalize the economy somewhat, but keep a lid on political activity, for now--and this, of course, is the reason. The menace from the north. We've seen what Bushites have done to Iraq--and, in fact, what they've done here, to our own democracy. They are total shitheads, and will absolutely brutalize Cuba, if they can. And have we not learned here, "give them an inch and they will take a mile." True of all Corporatists, as well. Give them good roads and schools and productive workers, and tax breaks, and they WILL destroy your labor laws, your communities and your government. And, if you resist them and you are Latin American, they will end up throwing you out of airplanes, or attaching electrodes to your testicles, or raping and killing your family and your neighbors, to retain and extend their power. People in this country need to understand what Cubans are legitimately afraid of. And it's interesting that we claim to have free speech and a free press, and descry the lack of them in Cuba, yet Cubans are far better informed about U.S./Corporate history in Latin America than we are. They KNOW what has happened. We, for the most part, do not.

As for people fleeing Cuba to the U.S., those who mention it always presume that the motive is fear and oppression, and a flight to freedom. But it could also be a dislike of the fairness and equity in Cuba, and a flight to the get-rich-quick city of Miami where "the streets are paved with gold," and where the Cuban Mafia will take you in, and employ you, and dress you up well, and give you a nice apartment, if you're not too fussy about what you do for a living. Criminals could be--and are--attracted by visions of easy money (real or not). That Cuba is a stable country, with its wealth widely distributed, and is not particularly oppressive if you agree with its premise of fair distribution of wealth, is forgotten in these tales of the "escaped." Were they tortured? Were they imprisoned? Were they suffering starvation? Were they denied a decent living? Were members of their family or community being killed, or denied food, work, health care? Why did they flee? Rarely does persecution--in any real sense of the word--come into it. In some cases, I'm sure it's genuine disagreement with the system, or discomfort with the deprivation that can occur when everyone is fed and housed. In others, the wish to gain advantage, to accumulate wealth, to own things and buy things. (How many people have obtained a free medical education in Cuba, and then fled to Miami to become a rich doctor with a mansion and yacht?) And in still others, criminal intent--the wish to be free to gain riches by any means necessary. A mixed bag, I'm sure. All are described as "seeking freedom." But freedom to do what? Freedom FROM what? And why is there so much crime in Miami, and so little in Cuba?

As with everything, we are given a VERY distorted picture of Cuba--and of those who come to the U.S. in flight from the Cuban revolution. We are given corporate propaganda--by those who hate equitable economics, and want to invade Cuba and turn it back into the fascist stewpot that it was under Batista. Cuba is a very beautiful island because it was never corporatized. And corporations love to despoil beautiful places. They've done it everywhere in the world, including here. These forces are poised like jackals to leap into Cuba as soon as Castro--the grandfather of the revolution--is gone, to exploit, to enslave and to despoil. Do not be fooled by their propaganda. Look at the tripe about "freedom" they peddled about Iraq--and about "free trade" throughout Latin america. Cuba is wise to be careful about who they admit, in any liberalization. And they would be wise to aim all trade relations at OTHER Latin American countries, who are with them in spirit regarding fairness and equity toward the poor--and that is most them, these days. But not the U.S., with our monstrous corporate monopolies and our sad, "banana republic" status under the Bush Junta.

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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
21. The simplest answer is that Cuba is
the Israel to the South of us. It's a highly charged, emotionally divisive issue.

Not to be picky, but you start and end with Latin America but focus on Cuba in the middle. :shrug:
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Cuba was a particular example
Because the most recent instance was on a thread about Cuba. This comes up whenever I talk about any country in Latin America, particularly Venezuela and Cuba.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
22. Maybe we should let the Cubans run their own economy.
Still, some version of market socialism doesn't sound too bad. In fact, I'd argue that that is already occurring in Cuba. The country has significant investments from Europe, Canada, China, etc. It also has better quality of life for its citizens than its Latin American neighbors.

Yes, some Cubans risk their lives to come to the US, for a variety (or a mixture) of reasons: economic opportunity, family ties, ideology. But so hundreds of thousands of other Latin Americans, and hundreds of them die in the desert every year.

I think the heated discussion on Chavez/Castro issues here derives from the fact that there are different elements on DU. It is the home of Democratic Party stalwarts who are part of the anti-communist, anti-socialist American political consensus, but it is also the home of leftist internationalists who despise American imperialism (if we still allowed to use that phrase)and are very sympathetic to whoever pops up to challenge it.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. The problem is that I fit into neither camp
I oppose American imperialism and much of what we have done overseas after World War II. The thing is that I don't think all of the challengers of American imperialism are exactly Saints themselves. DUers make it out to be black and white. There either has to be a far left ideologue or a far right one. What is wrong with something in the center?

And as I've said before, I'm not exactly advising Cubans on how to run their economy. I'm making posts on DU because I enjoy discussing economics and politics. I just wish that people would discuss this with me without hostility.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
23. Let the Cubans decide what "market system" they want.
Things will be changing after Castro is gone, but Cubans don't need to listen to lectures from foreigners.

We get so very many more immigrants from Mexico. Does that mean that Mexico is also insufficiently capitalistic?
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. I'm not advising Cuba, I'm posting things on DU
I enjoy discussing economics and the benefits and drawbacks of certain systems.

And on your second comment, again I don't think you fully understood my post. Mexico needs to adopt some more left wing principles like workers' rights and unions in my view. Again, just because I think Cuba has problems doesn't mean that I don't think that Mexico doesn't either. There is an alternative to both state run economies and unregulated capitalism.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
24. Perhaps we like Castro better than you.
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
26. because some people here actually think that Cuba is a better and more just country than we are.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. If that were true, wouldn't more American immigrate to Cuba rather than
Cubans immigrating here?
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
27. I wonder if Cuba would be so bad off if the sanctions were lifted
who do they really punish those sanctions?
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-29-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I don't agree with the sanctions, but Cuba could trade with other countries besides the US
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