When did success become the bad guy?

[Katherine Brengle]

I'm all for social responsibility, but what the heck...

Yes, maybe the Edwards house is a grand display of all that is wrong with the world - maybe it is.

But have we gotten to a point, as liberals/progressives/Democrats/what-have-yous, where the only way to nobility and the only mark of integrity is poverty?

I don't want to be poor. I don't want you to be poor. I don't think it makes one any more honorable. I think it makes one more powerless.

I refuse to judge a person's leadership abilities based on the size of a house, the brand of a car, a haircut, a college attended, a childhood of poverty v. priveledge...

Are you so perfect? Do you have that Dunkin' Donuts coffee in the morning in a plastic or styrofoam cup? Do you drive a car that's getting a little old and less efficient? Do you heat your house with natural gas or oil or electricity not derived from the power of the sun? Do you replace old tvs and electronics instead of having the old ones repaired? Do you buy clothes with labels that read "Made in Cambodia, Philippines, Vietnam, China, Bangladesh" and not bat an eye?

Let he without sin...

[BlooInBloo]

1. The more so for those who weren't born into wealth, and remain Democrats/progressive.

[Johnny Noshoes]

2. The sad thing is

its damn hard to find clothes that aren't made in those places instead of here. I know there are still such things as American made clothing but for most people they don't have the time or patience to look for said clothes. I agree with your post.

[Hav]

3. .

Yes, it is kind of strange. And since when does it upset people that rich people can buy big houses?
I'm a European and I had the impression that America was always seen as a country where people don't envy other people for their success. Instead of bickering about how rich other people are, they can respect that as an accomplishment and they try to make the best out of their own lives to achieve what the successful people achieved.

[Journeyman]

4. There's much I could comment on here. . .

especially as I work for one of the richest people in this corner of the planet, a fabulously well-to-do individual whose wealth is entirely inherited, yet who persists in supporting a multitude of socially-responsible endeavors and consistently supports Democratic candidates, often in the face of insurmountable opposition. But I'll keep my thoughts to myself. I don't wish to challenge perceived wisdom on any topic here, no matter what knowledge, experience, or insight I may possess.

Here's an innocuous thought: Hope you have a nice day.


~ Washington Irving

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

5. Right on !

[neoblues]

6. Okay, Where's the Coffee Table Book...

displaying ALL the houses of all of those who've been in Congress, the Executive (including the President's Cabinet) and Candidates for the Presidency? Methinks that we, the people, might be in for a surprise at the amount of Wealth possessed by those who 'lead' us. There even ought to be an appendix for displaying the various possessions, particularly the ocean-going yachts owned by some, as well as an indexed list displaying the estimated wealth and main sources (inheritance, stock market, etc) thereof of each individual... All this, before we stand in judgement over one person or the other.

[The2ndWheel]

7. I think you know when it became the bad guy

"Are you so perfect? Do you have that Dunkin' Donuts coffee in the morning in a plastic or styrofoam cup? Do you drive a car that's getting a little old and less efficient? Do you heat your house with natural gas or oil or electricity not derived from the power of the sun? Do you replace old tvs and electronics instead of having the old ones repaired? Do you buy clothes with labels that read "Made in Cambodia, Philippines, Vietnam, China, Bangladesh" and not bat an eye?"

It's when success led to this process.

Also, every car gets old and less efficient. That's the problem with progress; you can never catch up. That's why it's easier to just buy a new TV and other electronics. That's why the vast majority of people don't make their own clothes and really have no other option than to buy from giant corporations who use 6 year olds in some SE Asian country to make our shoes because we live in a specialized world for productive purposes.

We're all not going to get everything. 6.5 billion+ people will not all live a life of luxury. The ones that don't, will never catch up. Some will break through, but most will chase their entire lives. They'll drive themselves insane doing it. We see it in this country. We have pills for everything. That's because we're chasing a destination that just doesn't exist. We're all chasing success, but all that does is keep the top-down society perfectly in place.

[Odin2005]

24. My arn't we cynical today...

[The2ndWheel]

27. To a fault

I get sick of it myself sometimes.

[Porcupine]

8. Since people started getting killed to support our toys?

600,000 people have died in Iraq as part of the price for our unsuccesful oil grab. Oil that is absolutely essential if "succesful" people are going to fly their private jets to the Caymans for the weekend.

The same kind of equation applies to the corn, coffee,sugar, bananas and vanilla that are in your breakfast.

Other people pay for our toys with blood. You claim it's not your fault but yo don't listen when somebody tells you it is.

[bread_and_roses]

17. Right. And since the earth started to die for our gluttonous

energy demands. And since we accelerated our path to Banana-Repbulicanism with ever-increasing gross inequality. Actually, since forever. But anyone exhibiting gluttonous, gross over-consumption deserves derision, in my book - Dem candidate or not.

[MonkeyFunk]

31. So

back when Og killed Zog because he wanted Zog's shiny rock?

This isn't a new phenomenon.

[eridani]

9. Success and consumption are two very different things

Of course, as you pointed out, there is no one right way of being a mindful consumer.

[luckyleftyme2]

10. THIS THREAD

THIS sounds like a karl rove flame thread to me. a lot of "bull" to get the media to grab
and sound like the truth when its bull!

[Guaranteed]

43. Yes. And no, there isn't any right way. But conscious awareness and concern

are important.

[donheld]

11. Democrats are suppose to live in shacks and Teepees I guess

Don't ask me why.

[mrcheerful]

12. When the successful decided to back people like Reagan And shrub,

When the successful took pensions and cooked their books leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab. When the successful use tax loop holes to get out of paying taxes then put people into power that gives them even more tax deductions. When the successful stopped putting money into the infrastructure here and put it in other countries to exploit the poor of those countries. Does it bother me that Edwards owns a big house, no because at least he is willing to throw the working stiffs a bone every now and then, unlike the pukes who say let hem eat cake.

[liberal N proud]

13. This talk about Edwards house is nothing more than diversionary bullshit

[Katherine Brengle]

21. Precisely my point.

If people don't support Edwards, then fine. Don't support him.

But focusing on something so petty, at the outset of a very important electoral season, is a huge waste of time and resources.

The vast majority of our politicians are very wealthy - that's why they can afford to run in the first place. Maybe someday this will change, but for now it's what we have.

Energies can be far better spent actually DOING something, instead of cursing the darkness as usual.

We won a huge victory in 2006. We have it in us to win an even bigger one in 2008, but if we can't act like winners, we'll have a really hard time coming out on top.

[MadHound]

14. It isn't the success that people are unhappy with,

It is the ostentasious display of gross materialism that the Edwards are putting on with this McMansion of theirs. Do they really need such a large place? Especially in this time when energy and other resources are becoming scarce. How many trees died for their dream home? How much energy will such a place eat up? Ooo, and then there's the matter of "the help", how much energy is going to be used going back and forth every day?

Sorry, but the hypocrisy is a bit stunning. Especially coming from a man who has derided how this country has become divided into the haves and the have nots. Plenty of other candidates live in much more modest homes. Sure, Edwards is free to build however large a monstrosity as he wants, just as I feel free to criticize him on his decision and its ramifications.

But frankly, it isn't the house that turns me off to Edwards, it is his pro-war stance, especially with Iran that convinces me he is not the one that we want in the White House. Tell you what, let Edwards start preaching peace in the ME and I'll give him a pass on the house.

[Toucano]

23. Exactly. n/t

[sandnsea]

15. Nobody is talking about vows of poverty

Nobody is talking about taking away DUers $100,000 incomes and 3000 sq ft houses either, so everybody can just friggn' relax. Don't worry, consume, consume, consume.

God this has been a disgusting week-end.

[Leopolds Ghost]

19. $100,000 and 3,000 sq ft is a LOT in most parts of the US, but American civil religion

Forbids us from thinking we are any different from what is politely termed the "upper middle class".

Instead of thinking that the super-rich are our "betters" and envying them, we aspire to be MERELY rich.

How many domestic servants, how many trips to the high-end supermarket, how many "conscious lifestyle decisions", how many conversation-based (not money-based) decisions about a child's education does it take for an upper-middle class person to be considered rich?

[Warren Stupidity]

16. Only Republicans are allowed to be filthy rich.

Democratic candidates are supposed to be embarassed by their wealth. Dumbass can wear his fake texas accent and be a faux cowboy while his just the adle brained offspring of old Connecticut Yankee wealth and nobody says squat about his idiotic brush cutting adventures, but Kerry goes windsurfing in Nantucket and that is a story that won't die. Edwards is a rich lawyer and built a big house. OH MY GOD!

What is really wrong is that only the filthy rich can run for president. When was the last time a major party ran a regular person on the top of the ticket?

[Crunchy Frog]

18. I like how there's never any middle ground on DU.

Either you're living in a palace, or you're living in a shack. Either you engage in massive displays of consipuous consumption, or you live like a monk. There is no in between.

Just something that I've noticed about DU the past few days.

[Marrah_G]

22. That is one of the reasons I rarely post.

Trying to get some people to see grey areas is impossible.

[JVS]

29. We ought to head to the bar with these people

We'll have people who are perfect as designated drivers, and the others will set world records for drunkenness

[laundry_queen]

38. Yes, it's been pretty bad WRT this topic. n/t

[Leopolds Ghost]

20. How many DUers consider themselves unsuccessful if they have less than 30,000 sqf house?

Sounds like the falacy of the false dichotomy to me.

What's sad is most Americans who make $100,000 a year or more consider themselves to be "struggling" or "middle of the road"

[Toots]

25. Well I hope none of you are criticizing the USA for it's Iraq Embassy then

It is ten time larger than any other Embassy on earth but hey that is how Americans are right? Especially "Populist" Americans..

[siligut]

26. I don't do black and white.

Success is not the bad guy, power and money without conscience is. Cutting social programs and sending children to die for greed is. The blatant behavior of this administration is going to be what brings the guillotine down. Let’s stay focused on the root of the problem.

[SmokingJacket]

28. Since when does wealth=success?

Wealth = took a bigger piece of the pie for yourself. If you have more, you owe more.

I actually like Edwards and would vote for him, though I'm itching for Gore. And I think the house-flap is probably aimed at dividing Democrats.

HOWEVER... we need to get off our asses BIG TIME and change the way we think about using resources. If we do drive to Dunkin Donuts, we need to RETHINK and consider using a reusable mug and making coffee at home.

Of course none of us is perfect and pure. And those of us who are poor have fewer choices -- if you don't have a house, and you're standing on the corner with a cardboard sign, and someone gives you a couple bucks of course you go and get the damned styrofoam cup!

But if you have more money, you have more choices, and more responsibility to make BETTER CHOICES.

[meow mix]

30. were not asking to be leader, he is. we want the best possible leader and

at this point in earths history, another over-consumptionist is the LAST one we need running the show.

[treestar]

32. From a liberal point of view trial lawyer success is the best there is

In the process, somebody who would have gotten railroaded got compensated. Think about it, is there a conservative trial lawyer? By definition they would not be - they are trying to get the deep pockets to take their legally required financial responsibility for the damage they cause.

[NorthernSpy]

34. I think "jackpot justice" is one of the worst traits of our society...

Instead of dealing with things forthrightly with the sort of across-the-board regulation that benefits everyone, we solve our problems with litigation. In the end, a comparative handful of sympathetic victims walk off with damage awards that are often vastly out of proportion to the harm suffered, while few structural changes are made that would make life better and safer for the rest of us.

What's so "liberal" about that?

[treestar]

36. The rich have a great advantage in litigation

They can keep the award interest free for years, tying up the case in the courts. Only the trial lawyers go against them.

It's not a jackpot, it's up to the jury. To say that says any jury verdict is a crapshoot - why are they any good then? Without juries, we'd have a police state.

If you want a socialist system, fine, but why pretend that we have one now, and while we don't have one, here is one thing that moderates it and regulates it per the will of the people (the jury, the only time other than voting that you can have your say in government).

[marions ghost]

41. I have to differ with you

about juries being "having your say in govt." The rich have a great advantage in litigation as u say, but they sway and influence cases all the time, never mind juries. It's a delusion.

[NorthernSpy]

33. "When I see most 'poor' Americans, all I feel is disdain" -- Katherine Brengle

Aren't you the one who said that?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1078486&mesg_id=1078486

Yeah, there you are: judging poor Americans for having (gasp!) cellphones. Never mind that bosses frequently demand that their employees be reachable at all hours, or that hassled single parents might find cellphones a godsend for coordinating pick-up times and errands with their children. You just know that these folks shouldn't be choosing to spend their limited cash on such frills -- even if the items in question make their lives easier and safer. When they disagree with you, you sure don't hold back on judging them for it.

And yet the next thing we hear out of you is that imperfectoids such as we may not judge the rich for their wasteful, environmentally irresponsible lifestyle.

Oh, well. The poor are always fair game for a little moral hectoring, aren't they? Oh, and by "poor" I don't mean middle class people who buy a couple thousand bucks worth of useless junk rather than pay their bills, and then have the nerve to bash the rest of us for our supposed irresponsibility.

[maxsolomon]

35. Carbon Footprint

no one has any right to a carbon footprint larger than that of any other.

if john edwards' 20,000 SF home is a carbon neutral solar powered geothermal green machine, then fine. but its not. its excess.

he wants to lead, but unless he's sustainable, he's not leading.

[mondo joe]

39. Then that's what the law should reflect.

But it doesn't. The American people have not decided that.

[maxsolomon]

46. the "american people" have not decided that women are equal to men, either

what's your point? that we roll merrily along heedless of the consequences because there no LAW telling us to reduce our carbon footprint?

[leftofthedial]

37. the *definition* of success is the problem

the planet cannot sustain any more of the perverse American capitalist notion of "success."

[Hell Hath No Fury]

40. Success is NOT the "bad guy"...

it is what an individual decides to do with that success that I find revealing and important, and that I think may DUers are responding to.

Land use, environmental impact, and consumerism in general all things that must be looked at if we are going to survive as a planet and a culture.

I have nothing against success -- in fact, I personally want to be as finanically successful as possible so that I can afford to make my impact on the planet as minimal as possible and share what I have with organizations that change peoples lives for the better.

What I could do with 100+ acres and a couple of million dollars....

[marions ghost]

42. simplistic argument

Presidential candidates are judged on everything. SO what else is new.

This is not about wanting to be poor. This is about wanting our candidates to be leaders in matters of great importance for our future survival.

You want to trivialize the issues. This is not about "judging" and being not judged and all that good stuff.

It is in our best interests to judge everything these days, even Democratic candidates. We cannot be complacent.

[cgrindley]

44. Success isn't a bad thing

My wife and I do pretty well. I'm a college professor and she's a filmmaker. We have a nice little 3 bedroom house and 2 cars (both VWs, neither particularly environmentally friendly). We have a cat. We live in a moderately blue state right across the street from the beach, and we go swimmming most days in the summer. We both went to university (she private, me public). We've never had a vacation anywhere but at home. We only buy organic groceries and I only eat organic meats (she's a vegetarian). We don't have a lot of money, especially after students loans and my child support and such, but we live better than 99% of the inhabitants of earth, and according to the US Census, our income is in the top 15% in the nation and is more than double our state median. We certainly don't want anything. Maybe HD, or a Wii... there's always next Christmas, right? Anyhow, to me, that's success.

Edwards? That's so far over the top of anything rational or sensible that it can only be described as Trumptastic.

I also know that to the many people who live in poverty not only here in the US, but elsewhere in the world, my standard of living is disgusting, and you can bet your bottom dollar that if I was holidaying around in some developing nation, the last thing I'd be doing is showing off my vast estate and wonderous possessions.

Edwards should be tarred and feathered for being dumb enough to live in a place like that when he's considering a run for the White House.

[Porcupine]

45. Well said!! Thank's for chipping in here.

I'm not a success by any measure but two. I don't drink or use recreational drugs at all. I do my very best to raise my two daughters as thinking, caring individuals.

My financial life is a mess, my marraige was a total failure, I have a bad back and weird mold allergies. I really am not very good at making money; it's like a color blindness thing with me.

But the wealthy have to deal with me and my ilk anyway. They can help us out or they can push us down. In Denmark there is an example of the first, in Indonesia there is an example of the second.

Which nation would you want your child to walk down the street alone in?

[SoCalDem]

47. When people are stressed and feeling badly about themselves and their place in the world

the ordinary thing is to look for a reason why. If one is working hard, and still not getting ahead, then it MUST be "someone else's" doing.

That's why immigrtation was not such a biggie during the 90's and why this stuff was not so divisive. MOST people did better back then.

the self-preservation mode is pretty strong, and even good people get caught up in it.

If you have a nice car and your neighbor gets a nice car too, only newer, most of the time you just feel.."Hey..nice car".. but if you are driving a piece 'o junk car and it's eating you alive with repairs, but you cannot afford a newer one...and your neighbor gets a new one, you MIGHT just feel that envy rising up..

It's the not so nice side of human nature..