Your thoughts on this mystery man I confronted and photographed in DC this weekend:

[NoSheep]

I promised this guy HIS picture would be on the web:





Mr. NoSheep, in red the sweater in the background, brought to my attention 2 men with military haircuts and no protest signs, badges or anything, taking pictures of a particular group of marchers. This group was near the back of the march, with a wide yellow banner calling for an end to discrimination against Middle Eastern/Islamic peoples and justice for Palestinians.

I remembered a video I watched on the web not too long ago, where cops and other official agents were taking photos of protesters at a march (perhaps in Oregon?) and the cops basically incited a riot and singled out those who they believed to be "leaders" in these activist groups. I wanted to knock the camera out of his hand but this guy was steroid HUGE with an unmistakably deadly vibe. So I put my sign in front of his camera. He turned and literally growled and sneered "BACK OFF!!"

I asked him why he was taking these kids' pictures and he said I was all about "rights" until it came to his.
:eyes: I don't have to tell you what a nonsequitur that was.

Anyway...I yelled at him a little bit because it made me so angry that someone like this even exists. I told him I thought he should leave these people alone. Then I just thought "I need to take this guy's picture!" So I did. I wonder what was going through the mind of his buddy standing there with him. You can see his eyes behind the glasses. Maybe the scenario will make him think for just a split second in the future. Or maybe he has a chip in his head too like the other guy. He felt like Robo-cop or the Terminator or something. Programmed.

Who does he work for I wonder? He was not taking photos for a memento of the march. He was collecting info.

[NoSheep]

1. Kicking to expose this guy. For what it's worth.

[Bonobo]

3. I'll kick for the nazi scum too. Photograph this!

[EdwardM]

140. Do you have to call him nazi scum?

We don't know who this guy is. For all I know, he could be a reporter taking pictures, or just a guyw ith a website. I doubt he is "nazi scum."

[Wednesdays]

144. Then why the secrecy?

eom

[EdwardM]

149. I don't know the facts.

That is why I refuse to rush the judgement. Maybe he is a gov agent, maybe not. I don't know, but just because he is wearing a black sweater and sunglasses doesn't make him a gov agent. He very well could be a reporter or some guy working for a right wing website.

[Dorian Gray]

178. I also immediately thought Reporter...

until I heard how he answered the OP when asking why he was taking pictures. Who knows? I don't know if it's as dire as you might believe, though.

[Duppers]

202. did you not read this?

OP: "I asked him why he was taking these kids' pictures and he said I was all about "rights" until it came to his."

How hostile, assuming, and oppressive is that? He, right there, stated that he IS the opposition!

Btw, dictionary definition of nazi includes: one who "suppressing all opposition and establishing a dictatorship over all cultural, economic, and POLITICAL activities of the people"

This person IS NOT a newspaper or magazine photographer. They're usually liberal folks who are certainly not hostile to others---aggressive perhaps, but not hostile.

I agree with NoSheep's perception of this guy.

[NoSheep]

216. Duppers gets it. He admitted his position with that statement.

Thanks Duppers. Wanna go out for ice cream? What about popcorn?:popcorn:

[Duppers]

245. absolutely

If you're in Tidewater some time, give me a ring. :)

[EdwardM]

239. If someone came and shoved a sign in my face

I'd be angry also. I'll give this guy the benefit of the doubt until the facts come out.

[Imagevision]

265. If someone put a sign in my face, I'd easily waltz around them...

These are what they look exactly like, CIA... so Hollywood!

[Dorian Gray]

345. I did read it...

my response was... I THOUGHT reporter UNTIL I read his response.

I'm also an optimist. Maybe he's a reporter for a right wing rag, though. It's possible. Hostile, but non threatening.

[rman]

295. Reporter, sure. Hence his response:

"you're all about "rights" until it comes to mine"

You did read the OP, did you?

[unpossibles]

9. good luck. I remember being photographed at a few rallies in DC

and even scarier looking up and seeing snipers (?) on a few rooftops.

[NoSheep]

57. I saw the snipers on top of the WH last yr. That WAS scary. Eerie. It felt very wrong.

[Tesha]

143. The snipers go wherever the Pretzeldent goes. (NT)

[Scriptor Ignotus]

163. those guys are always up there -eom

[madmax]

278. I was at a protest in NJ

when bush spoke at a church about Faith Based Initiatives. The snipers were on the church roof. :scared: Their rifles directed toward all the protesters.

I was photographed by the local paper with my big mouth wide open holding a bush pic with 'Illegitimate' banner across his chest.

[NoSheep]

337. Good for you for making an appearance! You may have made an impact

on someone! One vote at a time, y'know? We have to do what we can to stand up for what we believe in. Shit's getting deep.

[Unperson]

76. At the Conyers/Downing Street memo rally

I remember seeing the S.S. on the Whitehouse roof taking pictures with these huge telephotos.

[Perky]

177. It is their job,

I have no tension with the secret service taking surveuillance photos from on top of the white house. Oh and by the way it was probably a spotting scope and not a camera.

It is not about about trying to stifle dissent or even a fascist agenda. They photograph all protestors in front of the WH. They did the same thing when People were protesting Clinton I assure you.

Its about protecting the life of the president against folks who are real threats. And no matter how much we despise the current resident no one should want to see him assasinated.

[vanboggie]

256. Then by rights they should be with Gore and Cheney

The elected Presidents.

[motocicleta]

259. you might want to edit that

[vanboggie]

339. AHH!! - I meant Gore and KERRY

Gawd, this long siege since 2000 has finally fried my brain. Where the hell that came from I don't know, but I can't believe I typed Darth's name instead of Kerry. Time for a long, long rest!

[motocicleta]

341. May we all get a good long rest from the madness soon. n/t

[JDPriestly]

2. Kick and recommend.

This needs full exposure.

[Umbram]

4. Careful.

I vaguely recall someone getting into legal trouble for posting these.

[NoSheep]

5. Really?

[NoSheep]

7. I have no intention of getting in trouble. I'll delete if someone thinks

I really should. Mods? Admins?

[Lerkfish]

13. chill. photos of the protestors are all over the web

if their rights aren't violated, then neither is this fellows.

[CabalPowered]

8. He's standing in a public street. How could this be illegal?

[Lerkfish]

10. if he is on a public street, photographing him is not illegal

[NoSheep]

14. I actually said "I'm going to take your picture." and he said "Go Ahead".

[NoSheep]

11. I haven't accused him of anything other than what he was doing!

[CabalPowered]

Exactly. You have nothing to worry about.

Except for some guy from the Alphabet Soup looking of you. Kidding ;)

[RaleighNCDUer]

49. It could be argued that it might be illegal to expose a military

intelligence operative --

But OTOH, that would require them identifying themselves as military intelligence operatives to charge anyone for that --

But OTOH, it clearly puts the person who photographed them on the side of the terrorists, for exposing them, and that person can now be detained indefinately without legal recourse on the say so of the military intelligence officers, who do not need to identify themselves or confront the accused, thereby preserving their anonymity --

But OTOH, by handling it in a way that preserves their anonymity the military intelligence officers are not exposed, therefore no crime has been committed --

Ah, what are the rules now? I get so confused.

[Tesha]

145. Call up Valerie Plame and ask her. (NT)

[Prophet 451]

280. You too?

The rules are that you will think exactly what the administration wants you to think. Thinking is any other fashion is strictly prohibited.

[jmowreader]

307. The problem here is that MI operatives don't LOOK like MI operatives

Plainclothes counterintelligence officers, at least the ones I know, grow their hair out so they look like businessmen. (Female military members are authorized to put their hair up, so the "hair" thing isn't applicable with women in CI service.)

Criminal Investigative Division guys LIKE to look like Gestapo agents; it scares the shit out of the suspects so that's why they do it. Until Bush came along, most of them were decent guys once you got them away from someone accused of a heinous crime. Then again, CID wouldn't be doing this.

I don't know who these guys were. Maybe they were uniformed CI guys--a CI officer who wears BDUs to work needs to have a regulation Army haircut. Maybe they were non-MI military guys. Maybe they were just freepers. Who knows?

[seabeyond]

21. bullshit. and if anyone did all the more reason to be outraged n/t

[Umbram]

35. I agree.

I didn't mean to stir everyone up, but I do recall reading about a website that was dedicated to posting pictures of likely gov't agents at protests and that it ran into some sort of trouble.

I'm not a lawyer, so I have no clue - just recalling something I read about.

Those guys are at just about every major protest, so it's nothing new.

[seabeyond]

38. thanks. i am in a state of constant pissed about this, lol. miami, oregon

i watched such an abuse, and a giggle from the d*mn police as they abused abused.... people. i dont care if they have a badge, they literally flat out broke the law and assaulted people,... and got away with it. criminal

[rman]

22. what, posting those same pictures, pictures of the same guy?

How likely is that?
(Aside from the fact that he one of many thousands in the street - a public place)

[Der Blaue Engel]

34. Aw, c'mon, it's a good picture of you, don't be shy

;)

[CabalPowered]

50. LOL! n/t

[NoSheep]

52. Ha!

[Shakespeare]

169. Bullshit.

He's in a public place at a public event. It's 100% legal to post his picture.

[Umbram]

179. Ok.

I'm not a lawyer.

I'll assume since you are giving legal advice that you are.

[Shakespeare]

309. That's not legal advice.

It's simple fact.

[133724]

299. public place; public picture....

[TahitiNut]

6. Former (or current) Marine junior officer. Probably DIA.

Welcome to the New World Order. The sweater is military issue, imho.

[northzax]

23. or from the Gap

I have a sweater just like that. wearing it right now, in fact (just in military green, not black)

[Horse with no Name]

26. Blackwater?

It is a military issue sweater.

[mmonk]

247. Blackwater is a private entity, I believe (not military).

And Blackwater did cross my mind when I saw it. Thing is, with privatization the way it is, who knows who it might be? Hired or maybe just someone taking pictures. However, the line about "rights" and everything sounds like someone who doesn't think everyone should have them.

[youthere]

84. I don't think it's MI (JMO)..

On GI issue sweaters the ribbing is all over, and usually reinforced in the stress areas with patches. Also the turtlenecks are not that bulky.

[NoSheep]

89. You can imagine all the things I wish I'd said! Like "Did you get that sweater at

the Fascist Mall?"

[youthere]

111. LOL!

"The Fascist Mall"...where the truly discriminating conspirators shop!

[Billy Ruffian]

274. Good heavens

I hope you don't meet me in the winter.

I often wear a military surplus fatigue sweater. Nice wool, heavy, warm. I liked the sweater so much after I left the USN that I bought a replacement when I ruined the first one.

I'm usually wearing sunglasses when I'm outdoors, and I keep my hair short.

Also have a 'commando' sweater that I bought from LL Bean's. Black, nylon patches on the elbows, heavy black wool.

You might want to consider that judging people by their appearance is something freepers often do.

[fudge stripe cookays]

303. And do you...

stand at protest marches, taking photos of protesters, and getting pissed when they try to engage you?

[Billy Ruffian]

338. yes, yes, maybe. n/t

[fudge stripe cookays]

342. Then expect this.

Because it's going to continue. When you survey, expect to be surveyed.

[Billy Ruffian]

344. I wonder if there is a point somewhere

Yes, I stand at protest marches. Yes, I take pictures of the protestors, and security, and crowds, etc.

If someone engages me, to use your words, I'll respond in kind.

Friendly or polite, I'm friendly and polite.

Aggressive or confrontational, I give it right back.

[Bigmack]

92. Probably not a Marine...

Sideburns just a taste long. Of course... with the New Corps and all.....

[TahitiNut]

106. That's why I guess DIA ...

It's my experience/impression that's the latitudes they take when assigned to intel. Obviously, I can only convey impressions and no certitude at all. That said, I mentally 'map' his appearance to the range of grooming 'styles' I associate with various services engaged in various activities. For example, if I were to map that appearance to the Army, I'd think it was consistent with cadre at some training school, not with some assignment where civvies are worn and he wasn't trying to stand out. So, I can't mentally map it to Army in that context. Likewise, if he's civilian (i.e. 'former' military) then he's at the 'relaxed' end of the grooming spectrum for the Corps. I don't connect the image with mercs ... since I don't think it's something they'd 'earn' enough to do. So, that's why I think something like DIA. Again, who can know?

Re: the sweater. It's a style I strongly associate with military ... senior NCOs and junior officers (below bird). It's just a knee-jerk thing ... I see it and think 'military.' Obviously, wannabes and 'fans' might make that association, too.

[smoogatz]

186. DIA was my guess, too.

They're allowed to function domestically without many of the legal restraints congress placed on the CIA in the 70s.

[TahitiNut]

189. Yep. They'd also be interested in current active duty military protesting.

The internal politics of the military is (almost literally) Byzantine. Family members of current miltary, too. Then, while they're at it, anyone else they have any kind of leverage with ... like federal employees.

[NoSheep]

190. What is DIA?

[caligirl]

214. defense intelligence agency

[NoSheep]

218. Thanks. New since 9-11? Domestic spying? Homeland security?

Protecting us from our own rights under the Constitution.

[caligirl]

258. Not new. they have been around for a long time. works for the

DOD(dept of defense) Works for the Sec. of defense.

[EVDebs]

270. Read about MLK's tracking by the Army, even worse surveillance than FBI's

Orders To Kill by William Pepper book lays it all out.

[ktlyon]

311. note the hair cut on the guy's partner, shaved above ears

right wing thug? maybe
partial skinhead? could be
not military is it? Don't know
or cool hipster? Some how I think not.

edited to add
maybe just a couple gay guys enjoying the scenery

[Ganja Ninja]

12. Are they from the Jeff Gannon school of photo journalism? n/t

[seabeyond]

15. NOSHEEP that is for sure. kick ass, you. excellent.

thank you for such clarity and boldness.

[NoSheep]

54. It was scary but it really sickened me.

Mr NoSheep and I agreed we felt as if we were in the presence of someone almost inhuman. The picture doesn't show his vibe...but it was there.

[seabeyond]

81. i ask.... what is going to happen to those that arent intimidate by those

that try to intimidate.

you, being a she, to stand face to face is a refusal to intimidation. i too, have had experience where the male police (airport) sole purpose was to intimidate. silly me.... i wasnt. didnt even enter my head. it was after the event i realized the purpose was to intimidate.

once this thought went thru my brain i asked myself... what happens when i am suppose to be intimidated, and i dont even think about it.

[NoSheep]

87. That's an interesting issue. I think it is important to let these people

know we are on to them. I doubt they've ever questioned themselves before...if they had gone unconfronted, they would just go home feeling like the sneaky creeps they are. This time...they had to face a fellow human...if only for a second or two. They won't change...but they were forced to consider what they were doing for once. If they'd tried to hurt me. I wouldn't have felt a thing. I was too mad.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

16. K&R

You're my hero of the day, NoSheep.

That's a damned gutsy thing to do.

Coupla thugs, serving their fascist masters . . .

[The Backlash Cometh]

17. There's a cop looking over his shoulder.

I trust everything was under control, because the cop would of, should have controlled the situation if big guy got out of hand.

[NoSheep]

74. That guy with the leather jacket on was his associate.

[The Backlash Cometh]

93. Second photo down.

Over brute's right shoulder, (your left), there looks to be a head with glasses wearing a cop hat. Also looks like there is another thug in black sweater/blue jeans, filming with a camcorder.

[NoSheep]

100. Wow! I didn't even see that cop!! He may have noticed the confrontation

brewing. I was REAL loud...best to draw attention in the event he took a swing at me. I don't know if I'd said a word had I not been in public.

[conscious evolution]

That jacket is an A2

Pilots are issued those in the military.

[The Backlash Cometh]

308. What military?

Bush's privatized military? Or do you think that this gives credence to an article I read not too long ago that said that Bush was using our military to spy on us? And why aren't those commandos not in Iraq?

[conscious evolution]

331. US Navy pilots gets them

Go watch top-gun.That is the same jacket Tom Cruise is wearing.
I'm not sure about the Air Force.They did get them at one time but were replaced by those green/orange reversible Nomex jackets.

[Sydnie]

18. His buddy in the background

what's that attached to his button on his shirt, down by his waist? Could that have been some sort of audio recording device? Do I need my :tinfoilhat: now? :shrug:

[Tin Man]

31. dude, that's a fold in the fabric of his shirt...

highlighted by the sunlight.

[Sydnie]

66. Ok, I'll loosen the tin foil ...

If you don't call this woman a "dude" anymore. ;) :P

[Tin Man]

I only meant "dude" in the most generic, unisex construct...

I appologize for any misunderstanding. Now go loosen your tinfoil bonnet. :P ;)

[Sydnie]

85. LOL

Sorry, it's a running joke around my house. The "fam" calls me dude just to get a rise out of me. You just got in the line of friendly fire. It's all good. :hug:

[gratuitous]

19. He doesn't look very proud of himself

I wonder what sort of "man" (and I use the term loosely) does this sort of thing? Sneaky little shits who like their actions covert and their battles uneven. The kind of spirit that leads to a soccer stadium slaughter in Santiago or a village massacre in El Mozote. Is that the America they stand for? Secret wiretaps, torture and gulags?

Go find yourself another country to be part of, Mr. Cableknit Sweater.

[The Doctor.]

20. Agent Mike!

Nice of him to make it!

[GreenPartyVoter]

33. He's not a bad looking guy, I guess. Too bad his politics are so messed up

[The Doctor.]

269. He doesn't have politics.

He has a job.

It's easy to believe that someone apparently stifling your politics has an adversarial political agenda. That's an easy mindset to be in when used to operating on political concepts.

It's just his job, he doesn't care.

Good chance he's got a wife and kids.


"I like Mike."

[GreenPartyVoter]

305. The guys in the Auschwitz gas chambers just had "jobs" too.

At some point, there has to be a line drawn, some personal reflection made. If he is photographing pictures for posterity, that is one thing. But tracking "dangerous subversives" is another.

[NoSheep]

313. Thank you for mentioning that. It is exactly the way I feel.

I practice what I preach. My choices have real world consequences.

[GreenPartyVoter]

324. Honestly, I thought people would give me grief over hyperbole but to

me it's just the extreme end of a spectrum, you know?

[NoSheep]

326. Yes. To me as well. Germany was the extreme...yet we have

Guantanamo which I would have never thought could happen....what's next? I feel very strongly that we have to confront those in our society who are threatened by the idea of true freedom and real, meaningful democracy. Their compliance with, not to mention their participation in any scheme that may seek to punish those who merely wish to speak openly against their government's policy are a danger to themselves and everyone else; from the family that blindly allows their son or daughter to be used in the military for private gain all the way up to one who tortures and kills without understanding why.

[The Doctor.]

343. It's still a piece of apparatus we cannot do without.

There is a reason the office of the President is so well guarded against physical assault.

And that is as it should be.


You cannot understand pragmatism?
Learn everything possible to root out possible threats.
Establish a presence.
Wear psionic teflon.

They have a job.

Does he have a political bent?

I've no idea. I know a few well-trained killers who don't have leanings.

Agent Mike?

I don't know.

But I won't assume when it's just as likely you'd have seen the same sort of guys (only without glasses) surveilling a similar march were it to occur during the last administration.

But somehow I think the marches on Clinton weren't as prolific... or as intense.


Perhaps I should put it another way;

"If you go about picking and identifying targets based on the way they make you feel, then you have already lost. Choose the subjects of your focus, not based on 'ideology', but on their actions... including when those actions are ideologically based."

-That fair enough?

[stillcool]

24. creepy dudes all...

Good on you...I would have run the other way. Scared shit of confrontation with anyone, but those guys I wouldn't have even looked at. I guess I'm a perfect example of a 'sheeple'. By the way, what kind of a lens is that?

[Ian David]

25. Let's photoshop his face into pornographic pictures and spread it around the web! n/t

[CrazyOrangeCat]

28. now yr talkin'!

:evilgrin:

[Tin Man]

53. LMAO...

:evilgrin:

[AikidoSoul]

188. Yaaay. Call up Swamp Rat immediately --

If anybody can do it Swamp Rat can...

[Critters2]

232. LOL!!! Do that! I double dog dare ya!! nt

[BlackVelvet04]

27. What do I think?

The guy in the brown sweater and the one in the black jacket are both feds.

[GETPLANING]

29. It's Agent Smith!

Obviously field agents gathering intel on agitators to be fed into a database.

[krispos42]

148. No, it's Agent Johnson

And Agent Johnson. No relation. lmao

[madmax]

282. They're all Agent Johnson

;p

[negativenihil]

30. k&r for the secret police

[blogslut]

32. That's a hell of a camera that dude has

Hope you find out what's up with him.

[endarkenment]

39. Actually it looks like a standard mid level digital SLR.

Not a big deal. Professionals and hobbiests would have a much bigger lens for that sort of work.

[blogslut]

45. You know better than me

I don't know cameras. Just the same, the fellow doesn't appear to be there for the love and brotherhood. ;)

[MattSh]

97. Not really.

You don't need a much bigger lens if you're within 50 feet of your subject(s). He certainly is within that range.

[B3Nut]

192. It looks like a Nikon D2X

and that lens is the 17-55mm f/2.8 DX Nikkor, about a $1500 piece of glass, give or take (and exquisitely sharp). $3500 or so for the body. Not chump change. You'd want a somewhat wide optic for crowd work, and the fast 2.8 maximum aperture is a plus as the light levels drop. 17-55 gets you an equivalent of 25.5-82mm in 35mm terms, wide to short-tele, usable range for what he's doing.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[NoSheep]

195. It was the biggest and fanciest camera I'd ever seen.

Like I said...I rethought the idea of knocking it out of his hands. He'd have probably killed me on instinct. Even if he WAS only a newspaperman! But I know better. He was no mild mannered reporter.

[B3Nut]

203. I would have had a hard time not drooling, actually

I do have a "thing" for high-end Nikon gear... :loveya: :D Can't afford it these days, not as much disposable income like when I was younger, single, and a bit daft... :)

Knowing my nosy photog ass, I'd have probably tried to strike up a gearhead conversation, more than likely... ;) Probably would have gotten a smartass response, but that never deterred me before! :D

Good on you for getting shots of him...anyone has a right to take pictures of people in public, after all...he was fair game! :patriot:

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[NoSheep]

219. I've thought of all the different fronts I could have put on to try to get more info...

more reaction out of the guy....for example:
"Hey man, you look like you're on my side...how do I join?"

Just to see what he'd say....but I was entirely too disgusted to do that.

[martymar64]

332. Next time just follow him.

Stick to him like glue. No need to be furtive either. Stand and watch him in plain sight. When he leaves, follow him. See where he goes. When he gets into a car, photograph the license plates. Let them know that we are surveilling them.

[NoSheep]

336. I really did want him to have a taste of his own medicine. I don't think what he was doing

is in the spirit of what this country is about. As far as whistle blowing goes, I've no doubt he's more J.McCarthy than P.Revere, that's for damn sure. I'm like that. I would do that on a good day.

[Marie26]

36. Talon?

Good for you for posting this. These guys look like they might be part of the TALON program.

Pentagon Caught Spying on U.S. Anti-War and Anti-Nuclear Activists

Earlier this week NBC News exposed the existence of a secret Pentagon database to track intelligence gathered inside the United States. The database including information on dozens of anti-war protests and rallies particularly actions targeting military recruiting.

The list included: counter-military recruiting meetings held at a Quaker Meeting House in Lake Forth, Florida. Anti-nuclear protests staged in Nebraska on the 50th anniversary of the U.S. atomic bombing of Nagasaki. An anti-war protest organized by military families outside Fort Bragg in North Carolina. And a rally in San Diego to support war resister Pablo Parades. The Pentagon database described all of these events as threats.

The documents obtained by NBC also indicate the Pentagon is now conducting surveillance at protests and possibly monitoring Internet traffic. One Pentagon briefing document stamped "secret" concluded: "e have noted increased communication and encouragement between protest groups using the Internet." The same document indicated the military is tracking who is attending protests in part by keeping records on cars seen at protests.

The Pentagon's domestic intelligence gathering has been done through a secretive program called TALON which allows military bases and other defense installations to file reports of suspicious activity into a consolidated database. The TALON program is so secret that even the number of reports in the database is classified. Also classified is the size and budget of the agency overseeing the database - the Counterintelligence Field Activity. The agency was created three years ago following the Sept. 11 attacks.


http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/12/15/155219

[Ronnie]

171. Lake Forth, Florida

Actually, that was Lake Worth, Florida. My mother-in-law lives there. Ordinarily she's quite laid back, but that incident really upset her.

[cascadiance]

275. I remember seeing this cop videotaping us in San Diego march back on September 24th...

Pretty creepy stuff!



From:
http://sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2005/09/111192.shtml

[EVDebs]

315. The website that got the Quakers into so much trouble inthefirstplace

14 Permanent Bases In Iraq
http://www.fcnl.org/iraq/bases.htm

[endarkenment]

37. We should start a wiki photo database of odd folks at demonstrations

It would be interesting. Sort of a rogues gallery.

[YOY]

43. Wonder how quick it'll be before it gets shut down or at least attempted to shut down

n/t

[Umbram]

48. It's been done already. nt.

[redqueen]

184. link? n/t

[Umbram]

191. Not the one I was thinking of, but:

http://whosarat.com/

I'm positive there was a site that was just a collection of suspicious looking photographers at protests, but I can't for the life of me find it anymore.

[redqueen]

193. Thank you!

:hi:

[jberryhill]

147. Well, that's what THEY think they are doing too...

After every protest, there is a hullabaloo about "some guy was taking pictures" amidst the "here are my pictures" thread.

If a government agency wants pictures of people at protests, they can come to DU and download them.

Bottom line - people in public places can take pictures of people in public places. There is not some kind of rule that restricts law enforcement from being able to do what any person with a camera may legally do.

[endarkenment]

151. I agree but it still would be useful to have a mugshot gallery.

So for example when some new face shows up at your peace group you can just wander over to the online rogues gallery and take a peek. It would be nice if we had some intelligence gathering capabilities too.

[jberryhill]

173. Absolutely

It would be interesting to keep track of these pictures.

Of course, they feel the same way.

It's a contest in paranoid record-keeping.

[Hardrada]

242. We have to use Paranoids now

since Polaroids are obsolete.

[ktlyon]

320. no need for pictures, they will be the ones proposing violence

and other unlawful acts

Let them take pictures, let them come to gatherings. I am not committing crimes. Maybe they will learn something.

[Clinton_Co_Regulator]

168. Good Idea

[treestar]

40. Now we know what Agent Mike looks like.nt

[unhappycamper]

75. Here's Agent Mike in uniform.

These were pics of his minions.

[133724]

41. I took this one when * was in Seattle

[Marie26]

42. Wow, they don't really blend, do they? nt

[krispos42]

158. Designated Decoys

A local cop is staking out a local bar. As it get's towards closing time, the patrons start emptying out. The cop keeps an eye out for anybody looking particulary tipsy.

Finally, he sees his target. The guy staggers out of the door into a trashcan, then a mailbox, and clips a telephone pole on his way to the parking lot. He fumbles his keys out of his pocket, drops them twice, then finally tries to put them in a car door.

The drunk finds the right car after four tries, opens the door, and falls into the driver's seat. Clumsly, he buckles his seat belt, closes the door, starts the engine, and starts driving out of the parking lot very very slowly.

The cop watches the drunk the entire time, and as soon as the guy makes it onto the city streets, the cop lights him up and pulls him over.

After a quick licence plate and driver's license check, the cop has the guy get out of the his car and do field sobriety tests.

To the cop's astonishment, the guy passes with flying colors. He walks the line, says the alphabet fowards and backwards, touches his nose with his fingers, follows the pen as it moves back and forth, etc.

Finally the cop gives up and says "Okay, you're sober as a judge. What's with the act? I saw you leave the bar drunk as a frat boy!"

The 'drunk' looks at the cop and says "Officer, tonight I'm the designated decoy!" :rofl:

The guys stood out because they were suppose to. For reasons unknown, the gov't wanted people to know that those two were agents of some sort. Which begs the question: Where are the agents the government DIDN'T want you to suspect?

In my imagination, the undercover op that blended in real well was making the rounds, feeling out who was in charge, and the two guys were taking pictures of who the undercover op was talking too.

If an especially venehment protest leader was going off to deep-cover op about Bush or Cheney or whatever, the government got both audio and stills of the protest leader. Probably the deep-cover guy was miked, too.

:tinfoilhat:

[NoSheep]

165. You'd fit right in around our house.

[133724]

298. can you see where the pan tilt web cams are?????

of course not....

They are about 5 or 6 floors above those jokers....

watch out for the man behind the looking glass.....

[RaleighNCDUer]

56. Those guys are clearly local cops or FBI -

look at the pot-belly on the short one. Not military intelligence as in the OPs picture.

[133724]

300. I took a class from an IRS Criminal Investigator

some years ago.

She said that when Bush 41 came to town every available enforcement officer was "drafted" even the IRS Criminal Division to protect him.

These guys could be anybody; IRS, FBI, CIA, INS, Seattle PD, US Marshalls....

[NoSheep]

77. Yep! They're so obviously from the "dark side".

[brettdale]

209. Oh My

The repugs really hate free speech.

[crispini]

44. Hellllloooo Agent Mike! nt

[TZ]

46. Defending the country from us dangerous pacifists...

is my guess.
Maybe he was hoping there would be violent demonstrations so he could "prove" that the protests are actually "terrorists". Definitely collecting info of some sort.

[NoSheep]

60. he as much as admitted it to me. I said "You don't look like you belong here"

"What are you doing?" He said I didn't respect his "rights". He knew we were political opposites.

The haircuts were a dead giveaway. AND the expensive camera with a lens like a damn bazooka! Hummer lens.

Actually, HE looks like a Hummer!

[TZ]

63. kudos to you

Takes a lot of guts to confront people like this. They look very military to me. I would be going out of my way to avoid such scary looking people...:applause:

[Umbram]

65. Heh

I take it you've never seen a telephoto lens. That is just a hood on the end of his lens.

[TZ]

72. I know what a telephoto lens is...

they two people just look creepy and scary to me

[NoSheep]

79. I'm no camera expert, but I know a pig when I see one.

[Xenotime]

47. People have been known to disappear for such things.

These guys are scary. I would tread lightly.

[Miss Chybil]

167. If they were going to disappear somebody they would do it BEFORE their picture

was on the Web. No reason to do something to somebody when the cat's already out of the bag. If they didn't want the OP to take their picture, the OP would not have been able to take it. If the OP did it anyway, I can guarantee if they didn't want the OP to keep it, or post it the OP would not have been able to.

It's funny how so many here are thinking these people are SOOOOOO DANGEROUS, but if these were really dangerous people, their picture wouldn't be here period.

They're probably cops, of some sort, taking pictures for their "files." It's good NoSheep took their pictures, just to give them a taste of their own medicine.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SAXMAR]

55. FBI at Vietnam War rallies

This reminded me of FBI guys at rallies during the Vietnam War. They wore black ties and suits and made no effort to blend in. I remember Abbie Hoffman telling everybody to wave as they were filming the rally.

At future anti Iraq war rallies these guys who don't blend in should be identified from the stage and everyone should wave or pose for them. They could even be invited up on stage. If they are not government agents they can voice their opinion to the cause.

[onecent]

58. Kick and recommend. n/t

[LaurenG]

59. He's really good looking whoever he is. : )

I don't have a clue except he looks like he could break my neck in 1 second flat.

You take good pictures.

[leftofthedial]

61. what's the mystery?

miitary intelligence flunkies

used to be badasses. now they're fat asses.

[tabasco]

62. These guys should be taking pics at the freeper rally.

That's where the next McVeigh is hanging out.

[NoSheep]

80. Ding! You are so right about that!

[tabasco]

129. I suppose "rally" is the incorrect terminology seeing as only a handful

of the cowardly warmongers showed their faces in public.

[helderheid]

141. you said a mouthful!

[yellowdogmi]

64. Finally a confirmed sighting of agent Mike?

Fascist stooge.
:mad:

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

67. They're collecting information for...

...the coming roundup -- this stuff is for real but most people don't believe it.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=277826260716604258&q=camps&hl=en

[file83]

236. Well, that was certainly disturbing.

Where the hell was that? I want to Google Earth it to get a closer look.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

255. Beech Grove, Indiana...

...Mapquest shows two Beech Groves for Indiana (Marion and Morgan county). Marion county is Indianapolis area and I'm pretty sure that's where this place is.

Disturbing to say the least.

[file83]

330. I found it....

Here are the coordinates:
39.717929°N 86.078222°W

Here is the over all view:


Here is a close up on the army train near the parking lot in the video:

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

335. Looks like the place...

...I think these pics are pre-renovation.

The residents of Indiana need to camp on Lugar's doorstep with this video and demand some answers.

[undergroundpanther]

285. I believe it.

That's why I look insignificant at protests.

[NorthernSpy]

68. not a bad looking guy...

... but that's neither here nor there.

As far as snapping and posting pictures of people who are taking pictures of people who are exercising their civil liberties -- why not? Your subject is in attendance at a public event, and you're just practicing journalism, after all.

[progressoid]

69. taking these kids' pictures??

He was just shooting pics of children? Or specific children? Any people or specific people?

Could be a domestic issue. e.g. Perhaps divorced father doesn't want ex-wife taking their kids to demonstrations and he needs evidence. Could even be a private detective.

[NoSheep]

71. Many in the group appeared college aged. I'm in my 40's so to me,

they were just kids. Damn it pissed me off.

[progressoid]

115. Oh, OK.

I'm in my 40's too and wince a little when I find myself calling college students kids. Mostly because I don't want to admit I'm in my 40's!! :)

[NoSheep]

124. I have only just started to feel a little old....I should resist...I saw some very

young people there though. It made me feel hopeful.

[mmonk]

248. I'd like to admit I'm in my 40's, but I can't. Left the 40's this year.

[leeroysphitz]

70. I smell bacon. nt

[Unperson]

73. Defense Intelligence Agency n/t.

[formercia]

78. The guy in the red sweater looks suspicious too.

but then, he's in on the joke. :)

K&R

[Veronica.Franco]

83. These pictures belong on the FRONT PAGE ...

of the NYTIMES and with every major news organization in the country ... expose these GOONS for all to see ...

[mopinko]

82. they always video tape marches here in chicago.

when i am selling buttons, i usually end up at the end of the march. there is always a little knot of coppers bringing up the rear. there are always a couple of them videoing, and taking pics. they are always calm and polite, tho, even if i give them a little jibe.

[NoSheep]

90. This man was NOT polite.

[mopinko]

134. well we have quite a history here in chicago

so, generally, they try to behave. besides, the marches here, sometimes there are almost as many cops as marchers. i think they behave better when they are sure they are in control.
although the first anniversary march got out of hand, and some of those charges are still working their way through the courts.

[wakeme2008]

86. STOP TAKING PICTURES OF LITTLE GIRLS PANTIES YOU PEDOPHILE

:evilgrin:

Ok I am evil with assholes....

[mongo]

108. LOL!

Oh, I want you next to me at the next march!

[wakeme2008]

123. :) Just think of the reaction of the folks around these two as they try

to explain why they are taking pictures and of what....

[Tin Man]

180. LMAO, that would be hilarious...

You're an evil genius. :evilgrin:

[wakeme2008]

181. it is hard work but somebody has to do it

:evilgrin:

[glitch]

88. He should have been taking pictures of this man:

and then he should feel his own shame and repent.

edit: from seemunkee (must give credit!) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=59575&mesg_id=59575

[NoSheep]

91. Agreed. I have some great pictures of the good people who were there.

[glitch]

95. I forgot to say:

:yourock:

[madmax]

279. Oh my God.

I'm crying like a baby. The entire thread just nailed it to me again. 'We're not in Kansas anymore, Toto.'

And then to see this wonderful senior citizen carrying our flag - I can't put it into words right now. He just touched me somewhere deep inside my heart. :cry:

[glitch]

287. And it's not just him. His (son?) following behind with the wheelchair

is what really got to me.

[madmax]

288. Yes, yes that too.

I sure would be proud to push his wheelchair. I'm still tearing up. My husband came in and saw me crying. I showed him the pic. His eyes got red and teared up. And he's not the emotional type.

[Ganja Ninja]

Probably looking for military personnel in the crowd. n/t

[itsmesgd]

94. Are there any pictures of their "shoes". Spooks are known by their shoes.

If you ever see a "spook" take pictures of their shoes, it can tell you a lot. You mentioned that this was near a "justice of Palestine" banner. Different types of operatives wear different types of shoes. A "birdie" once told me that if they were foreign and professional, the first thing that they would have done upon arriving in the states would to have been to purchase new shoes. I bet that 95% of everyone else at the march were wearing comfortable, broken in shoes. If these guys were US spooks, their shoes matched each other and would appear to have uniform wear from other operations. If they were foreign and had not bought new shoes they would be of a make and model that would give them away to the trained eye. There is a database that is maintained of every size, make, model, and style shoe for crossreferencing against prints.
From other observations, they are together and are organized- look at their glasses, they match. I'd like to see a close up of the photographer's bag and a shot of their watches if you have those, but the shoes would tell the bigger story.

Good job with the picture of the spooks.

[formercia]

96. In Russia during the Cold War

that's the first thing the KGB would look at in a crowd. Well trained agents knew better. Trenchcoats are a dead wannabe giveaway.

[dysfunctional press]

98. sorry, but i don't see what's so wrong about the guy taking pics of protesters...

:shrug:

[NoSheep]

102. You haven't seen the video I saw of a protest in Oregon. Miami also.

He wasn't like the protesters taking memento pictures of the crowd. He was an agent of some sort. Collecting info to intimidate "agitators". No personal offense here but I have to say: If this man's intentions aren't obvious to you...I wish you luck. You may need it to tell your butt from a hole in the ground.

[dysfunctional press]

127. i never thought that it was someone taking "memento" pictures...

and i realize his intentions- but it comes with the territory. if you're going to participate in an organized protest, you gotta figure that your picture is going to be on file somewhere.

that's just how it works- it's no big secret.

[NoSheep]

128. You are right. I hate his sorry fascist ass anyway!

[Matariki]

99. I don't know - he's looks too FLABBY to be in the military

:rofl:

[NoSheep]

103. I kind of thought that too. If he is, he's had a desk job for a while.

[itsmesgd]

105. have you ever seen anything like this?

There are dozens of these types of belly-band holsters

[NoSheep]

114. In the top photo...his camera strap seems to be hanging up on

something under the sweater...who knows...

[itsmesgd]

118. it's on the level of his right elbow.

If he's a right hander, the holster is a cross draw and he is using the camera strap's position to mask anyother "bulges". His friend also appears to have a right hand cross draw rig on or a holster in the left front jacket pocket. Look at how the sweater of the camera man turns up and in towards his belly and not out and up away from his belly. It shows that he might have stuck his hand up there repeatedly. His friend is crossing his arms and is holding the left side of his jacket close to his body moreso that the the right side of the jacket.

[kdpeters]

116. He might be a cop.

[stanwyck]

254. That's what I thought. He's certainly not special forces

with that gut.

[mindfulNJ]

101. He may just be a stock photographer.

Someone who sells his photos to Getty or Corbis.

[NoSheep]

104. Why did he act so mean and evil? Why didn't he just say..

"I'm a photographer...don't you want the march to get publicity?" See post #102. He was wholly unsympathetic to the cause.

[cynatnite]

107. Some people are natural assholes...

sounds to me that's what this guy is.

[NoSheep]

109. No doubt!

[mindfulNJ]

110. well, as a stock photographer myself...

It's getting to be a tough world to shoot pictures in:) We get hassled everywhere, so he may just have a built-in 'tude. He may NOT be sympathetic to our cause...he may be there just in a journalistic capacity. He may also just be an asshole.}(

[NoSheep]

112. I assure you he was an asshole. It was the haircut...and his buddy there with him.

Same haircuts. Same glasses.

[uppityperson]

117. Maybe they are fashion friends.

basically kicking.

[cynatnite]

119. Can't tell on the glasses, but it's so not the same haircut...

they've got short hair and their men. That's all they've got in common. There is no way to know why they were at the protest. We can only speculate.

[NoSheep]

122. High and tight on 2 different heads.

[cynatnite]

130. The red haired guy does not have a high and tight...

The one with the darker hair does from what I can tell. They are two totally different haircuts. My husband had a high and tight done before getting shipped out to Korea. He had whitewalls just like the dark haired guy.

[NoSheep]

136. Ah...yes the darker hair is white-walled.

[FogerRox]

233. I wear my hair hi & tight, but stylish

Those are 2 Mil spec cuts, slightly grown out.

[kdpeters]

120. NoSheep is correct. You don't have to buy into it, but it's clear as day to me.

But even if she isn't correct (but she is), tis always in your better interests to suspect than to trust.

[cynatnite]

131. I'm never one to think the worst right off the bat...

sometimes what you see is exactly what it is without reading too much into it. You can't judge a book by it's cover, but that doesn't mean you know what's inside either. :)

[alcibiades_mystery]

138. Maybe he thought you were being a hysterical asshole?

:shrug:

He is perfectly within his rights to photograph people, you know?

[NoSheep]

152. What's not to be hysterical about?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

210. ...

:applause:

[jberryhill]

154. Because he was confronted by someone...

...who took issue with his right to stand on a street and take pictures. You mention yelling at him... why were you so mean to him?

Even if he was a government agent of some kind, he has every right to stand on a street and take pictures. Convincing him that the protestors are excitable angry types probably confirms a prejudice he already had.

[NoSheep]

161. Maybe you haven't seen the footage I saw from an Oregon demonstration.

There's plenty to be excited and angry about. I don't want to argue with you about this, really. I feel we aren't in a free country anymore because people are willing to be compliant with the powers that be who are eroding our constitutional rights. Habeas Corpus is gone. They can haul in anyone they want and put them away with out a trial. Think Guantanamo. I'm angry about that. I felt it was my duty as an American to confront people like this.

[jberryhill]

172. That's fine

...but if you wanted to know about why his emotional reaction was what it was, you have to take yours into account. I guess my question is how you would expect him to react to being confronted in the manner you described. Regardless of anything which happened in Oregon, Guantanamo, or anywhere else, ANYONE can stand on a street and take pictures. YOU were standing on the street taking pictures - why can't anyone else?

[NoSheep]

183. They can. And I don't disagree with you. He can be angry at me.

And he got a piece of my mind which is exactly what I wanted.

[NashVegas]

211. A Different Approach

In your OP, it looks like you approached him with hostility in the first place.

I wanted to knock the camera out of his hand but this guy was steroid HUGE with an unmistakably deadly vibe. So I put my sign in front of his camera. He turned and literally growled and sneered "BACK OFF!!"

Chances are, he's shooting for some Freeper site, anyway. But it's not like you came on as the Good Humor guy, you know?


I occasionally go to protests and shoot photos for my own collection. I've posted some results on DU. You won't see me carrying signs at these things, either. I'm just there to document. And if you treated me the way you did this guy, first, I'd ask you nicely to get out of my way. But if you then demanded I explain myself to you, I'd tell you to piss off, with a smile on my face.

[EFerrari]

121. Mike needs to be more careful or nicer or something.

lol

We know they're collecting tons of useless information on protestors. Maybe it keeps them out of worse trouble. :shrug:

Hey, Mike! YOU NEED A DRESSER!

:)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

125. Personally, I Think It Was Just A Guy Taking Pictures, Nothing More.

But to each their own perception I guess.

[NoSheep]

126. You would!!!!

:D

[Cleita]

132. Geez, buzz haircuts, buff bodies, military looking sweaters, black

leather jackets and matching generic looking sunglasses. Why didn't they just wear a sign? However, when I was working the crowd passing out flyers for my district's candidate at our local Strawberry Festival, I kept trying to pass flyers to guys who looked just like that. Finally, one of them told me that they were security hired by the city to aid the local cops in keeping order in the crowd so there wasn't any need for us to waste our flyers on them. They weren't part of the district.

You see the same type of goons at rock concerts and any venue where there are crowds. I don't know about the cameras except that they may have been recording protestors, in case there was an incident, and the police would have some evidence to make arrests. Just MHO.

[Matariki]

133. buff? i think you mean CHUBBY

;-)

[ima_sinnic]

170. but what he told you might have been a cover story

--I don't want to be paranoid, but have found myself being more and more so over the past few years.

[Cleita]

175. Maybe at the protest, which is political, but the Strawberry Festival, is just

a spring carnival put on by the local farmers to showcase their produce and products. The fact that we took advantage of a crowd being there for non political purposes and were working it for votes was only a small part of it.

[MadHound]

135. Hey, I recognize them, they look like the same couple of guys

Who have been showing up at our modest(2000) little rallies for years now.

Yeah, these guys are always nicely dressed, have sunglasses, high end equipment, hair is cut short and tight. Straight out of Central Casting.

Who do they work for? Pick any three letter combination you like, FBI, CIA, NSA, DHS, ONI, what have you. The common thread is that they're federal government and they have come here to observe you and your fellow citizens exercise your Constitutional rights. You see, these folks, along with those that control them, have a pretty strict aversion to Constitutional rights. They would rather see all protesters behind bars, in Gitmo, complete with some "extreme rendition". But, since they can't technically do that to us right now(darn that pesky Constitution), what they are doing is keeping a record. It is their feverant hope that someday, preferably soon, their masters will let them be slipped off their leashes to go quell even the slightest hint of dissent or protest. But until then, they take pictures and file reports and gather information for that magic moment they know is coming.

We deal with them by simply out intimidating them. I'm 6'5", 270 mostly non-fat pounds. I've a buddy who is about the same size and build. We generally do what you attempted, keep in front of them with our signs. We're much bigger than they are, so they really don't get up in our faces. Instead, it is more of a game of tag. We spot them, and go stand in front of them, manuevering to keep them stationary as long as possible. They finally manage to move elsewhere, and we follow, blocking their line of camera sight again. And on it goes. You can see that they really want to kick the crap out of us, but we're in equal numbers, not violating the law, and are bigger than they are. Generally they leave in disgust about halfway through the rally.

[NoSheep]

137. I thought they looked "familiar" as well!

[MadHound]

139. Yeah, this sort of thing has been going on since the anti-war protests of Vietnam

If not before. Some Fed authority is wanting to keep a dossier on all of us "dissenters" Disgusting and laughable at the same time.

Someday I'm going to have to file an FOIA request for all of my files and pictures, that way I can have a high quality montage of my political life the past few decades.

[StrictlyRockers]

142. They act scared of us and they should be.

There are way, way more of us. And we hate these guys for being automoton, naziesqe dupes of the establishment. I'd like to see us expose them like this EVERY CHANCE WE GET!

SR

[krispos42]

146. I think sweaterman is packing heat

In the first picture, on his right hip, looks like maybe he has a compact auto in a holster under the sweater.

If that's true, then they are definately government agents. Every gun owner knows that DC does not issue pistol permits or allow concealed carry. It's part of the usual pro-2nd-Amendment argument. "Look at DC!!!"

Only a cop or federal agent would be legally able to carry a concealed pistol in the crowd. Metro PD, FBI, Secret Service, DIA, CIA, lord knows what else.

[itsmesgd]

155. my guess is that the photographer has a right hand cross draw rig on his left side

and his friend has a holdout in his left side jacket chest pocket.

[specimenfred1984]

150. Who takes pictures with sunglasses on?

You can't see what you're taking a picture of if you really care about the picture.

They're definitely agents, that doesn't mean they're working against the public though, they could be trying to protect people for all we know.

[jberryhill]

157. Are you suggesting...

...that a crowd claimed to be as large as 400,000 people might include some individuals who are criminals under surveillance of some kind?

[specimenfred1984]

198. Those guys were standing out on purpose

Somebody else called them designated distractions. They were too obvious and were trying to let someone know they were being watched. That someone could be friendly or not. There are scores of groups that would choose a friendly event to raise hell, the groups coming from almost anywhere in the world, including our own gov't but certainly not limited to.

[NashVegas]

208. I Do - I Wear Prescription Sunglasses

As a manual user, it's kind of hard to focus without them. And it's too much of a pain to switch back and forth.

[specimenfred1984]

294. Do they exactly match both matching pairs the guys are wearing?

Gee, I guess not huh? WTF was your point?

[Mrspeeker]

153. GREAT WORK!!!!!!!!!

you found one of the spys :)

[catmandu57]

156. As sinister as these guy look like I don't think they're the ones to worry about

They're so obvious, just their outward appearance shouts cop, some kind of cop. the guys you have to watch out for is the one who blends in perfectly, ordinary, everyday pissed off liberal. We have them here right now, if they're good you'll never know it until it's too late.
These guys, I'd give a very wide berth to, they're trouble, they especially look like they'de be trouble after a few rounds, but they're too obvious to be very concerned over.

[NoSheep]

166. You're probably right about that. They weren't the worst of it.

[EVDebs]

318. The infiltrators, agents provacateurs are setting up shop for the next convention

CIA moves domestic spying branch to Denver
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/05/AR2005050501860.html

and I remember readin that in the Seattle anti-WTO protests reacted to the unlawful behavior of police overreactions (violence begat violence). Each side justifying its violence with the others's.

The Crackdown on Dissent
http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0119-05.htm

""Among police agencies themselves this is something of an open secret. In the spring the US Attorney's office bestowed an award on members of the Washington, DC, police department for their "unparalleled" coordination with other police agencies during the IMF protests. "The FBI provided valuable background on the individuals who were intent on committing criminal acts and were able to impart the valuable lessons learned from Seattle," the US Attorney declared....

A major question posed by the lawsuits is whether the federal government trained local police to violate the free-speech rights of protesters...""

Or anybody the police/FBI wanted to harass they simply got them onto the 'list', kinda like Ted Kennedy on the no-fly lists.

[wicket]

159. K & R

:kick:

[Virginia Dare]

160. My guess---FBI...n/t

[liberalnurse]

162. Thats easy...........

This guy is wearing military/law enforcement sweater......Appearence and my "feel" on the image is in support of someone doing some casual surveillance.

[Vinca]

164. Knock, knock, knock.

Your flight to Guantanimo is boarding now.

[Chorophyll]

174. K & R and daaamn,

...I don't know what to say but "good for you!"
:kick:

[mnhtnbb]

176. I'd guess they are FBI.

[Nutmegger]

182. I never would have thought that the DoD spied on Quakers

But they did.

I don't know who the men are in the photos but they give me the creeps and I wouldn't put anything past anybody, if you know what I mean. :scared:

[rosesaylavee]

185. Kick.

Good job!!!!

[NoSheep]

187. A video I saw some time back showing surveillance of protesters

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13018.htm


This is scary "big brother" stuff for me. Citizens spying on citizens who raise dissent against the powers that be.

Saturday in DC was extremely peaceful. Yet people organizing chanting in the front of other groups ("leaders" perhaps) were being photographed. What purpose could that serve if not to try to "get" something on those people they want silenced? That is not what I think a free country should be about. They want to silence our voices in the media and in the streets. Where do we get to have a voice where we can be safe from persecution? The power balance is not in balance. Our congress cannot even act on the countries' wishes. The pigs don't care. They're taking all they can get out of our pockets and mouths. I view these men as their representatives.

[jberryhill]

222. Consider the value of "dissent" if the "powers that be" ignore it /nt

[Dinger]

194. Kick For More Exposure

What a strange looking dude.

[northofdenali]

196. Hey, Mr. Photographer -

Picture THIS:


What a jerk. Hopefully, whoever sent him (these types aren't smart enough to send themselves) will see his photo splashed everywhere, and he'll be out of a "job".

[NoSheep]

197. LOL! ..."aren't smart enough to send themselves" Sad but true.

He had a chip in his head, I'm sure of it. :D

[jilln]

199. A friend of mine did a similar thing

He and his family were photographed by FBI (I believe) agents at local protests. They then found out that there was going to be an FBI (or whoever) "Fun Run" for agents and their families. He and his family attended, found their guys and photographed them.

The agent got very upset, asking why my friend had to ruin his family time, to which my friend replied, "Why did you try to ruin MY family time?"

[va4wilderness]

200. This is kind of juvenile

You have know idea of who he is. Maybe he is maybe he isnt/ How should anyone know.

You should expect spies, cointelpro, provocateur types, but don't go doing the same thing that they are doing to us.

[NoSheep]

230. You can't spell. That's a sign, y'know.

[NoSheep]

231. These men ALSO didn't know those they were obviously attempting to

document. I'm on the side of my brothers and sisters in the street before I'm on the side of an agent of the state. Especially THIS state.

[va4wilderness]

314. Admittedly, this guy "looks" kind of creepy...

...It's just that I expect that at every demo. If they're not around, then, the State is probably not concerned about whatever piddly demonstration is going on. If they're around, at least you know the State is concerned. There are also probably some agents running around dressed like the folx in the demonstration. People should be aware of THAT!!!!

But I worry about the next person who gets a finger pointed at them... and the next person.... and the next person. And sooner or later an innocent person or some mainstream person gets the finger pointed at them. This is how the State splits movements apart. Read about Cointelpro history. And like others have said he may be some photographer from the media or something. I kind of doubt that, but that is a possibility.

Yes, he does "look" very, very creepy. That is my impression. And I have no illusions about what this government might do to intimidate or injure citizens - both domestically and abroad. We are dealing with people who are about as close to pure evil as you could imagine.

That's all I've got to say.

[rman]

293. We can't do the same thing to them as they are doing to us -

It's more than just taking pictures;
it's what the pictures are used for. Those are not for the family album.

[meldroc]

201. Probably Feds, but could be other people as well...

When I was protesting in Arvada, CO last fall, we saw a couple gentlemen on the roof of the Costco next door, taking pictures the whole time we were there.

I'd say these two guys are probably Feds - the buzz cuts, shades, and concealed firearms give them away. They're obviously not trying to conceal themselves all that much - they're out there to intimidate, to let us know "You're being watched." Probably FBI, though they could also be Secret Service (Dear Leader's house is just a few blocks away...) or any of a dozen three-letter agencies.

Conceivably, they could be private security. Maybe they're bodyguards for some of the celebrities out there, though you'd think they'd be guarding instead of taking pictures.

[southern_belle]

204. K & R

[Rex]

205. Impossible to say. The haircut and look means nothing.

nt

[brettdale]

207. They dont look like they are there to protest

They dont look like they are there to protest.

[Rex]

213. That much is apparent.

But the range is military wannabes to real operatives so it is really impossible to say. Unless someone can ID them.

[brettdale]

206. I SAY BLAST THESE PICTURES ALL OVER THE WEB

I SAY BLAST THESE PICTURES ALL OVER THE WEB

ON EVERY FORUM YOU CAN FIND ALONG WITH THIS POST.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

212. DIA, or FBI, goon.

[BluePatriot]

215. I swear I saw him on the CSPAN feed

Hm. If anyone kept their video of the protest, maybe they could find him.

[originalpckelly]

217. NoSheep, which street was this on? Maybe we could find them in a C-SPAN...

shot?

I think this is weird, and reading the story, it does indeed seem like they were some type of people doing surveillance.

I'm going to try and look for details in the pictures to see anything which might be of use.

[NoSheep]

221. It was at the very end of the march. Back at the start...the end of the mall toward the capital

West side of the mall, after the turn back north. Basically, "Home" if you were playing baseball.

[Oeditpus Rex]

220. It's a guy who doesn't look like a liberal

making photos.



I wish I had the :tinfoilhat: concession in this thread.

[Canuckistanian]

223. Mossad?

It might explain his interest in the Palestinian group.

[file83]

237. He probably doesn't know who he's working for - he just gets jobs.

Outsourced to do work - do a dead drop - get paid by wire. Doesn't know, doesn't ask. Just does the job.

[NoSheep]

317. That is an interesting possibility.

[JohnLocke]

251. Mossad would probably have little interest...

Terrorist groups usually don't participate in nonviolent marches, particularly halfway across the world.

[Canuckistanian]

284. You're right, terrorists don't march. But fundraisers and financiers might.

Of course, that's their thinking.

[ThoughtCriminal]

224. My guess

Wannabe with G-Man fantasies.

[NoSheep]

229. Your sigline says it all. These men...each one, a single raindrop; yet each

a drop in the flood. One ususally doesn't see "part of the problem" at a protest. You just see people like you. The ones who need to see it are at a safe distance. These 2 were in the thick of it. When I chant what I want in DC on a weekend, I'm practically chanting to an abstract entity. This was evil in the flesh. I felt it. I know. What do my "chants" mean if I can't try to be articulate with the very drops that make up the flood?

[Bucky]

225. DIA or NSA. Methinks FBI works a little smarter than this (plus they have smarter lawyers)

NSA controls several agencies with fellas that work a little more hamfistedly.

[KoKo]

226. Here's My Take...not reading whole thread...Cyndie Sheehan

came to NC for a Big Rally over a year ago...and I came to the Rally with sign..."NO BLOOD FOR OIL!" and on the reverse side was: "WHO WOULD JESUS BOMB?" (living in a Fundie Area, I liked the juxtaposition of Religion with Oil.

Across the street was an SUV with three people looking very similar to the photo's in your post of the guys at the DC Rally. They sat in their car with a camera with a ZOOM LENS taking photos of me and my sign and everyone around me. After awhile one got out of the car and went through the crowd ...just walking and looking..he didn't have a "visible camera" with the Zoom but he was looking like he was concealing something because he looked like those "Security Goons" one sees on the Cable CRIME SHOWS where they "infiltrate a crowd" looking very cool while something is "concealed" that is documenting what they see.

I was at another HUGE Anti-War Protest in NC before the Iraq Invasion in the Capitol, Raleigh, and I saw the same folks who wear the same "Dude Sunglasses" and always look like "military or prison security folks" standing across the street from us taking photo's of everyone who was at that Rally as they arrived.

I think it's just our Normal US SECURITY for our GOVT...doing their JOB! (I won't get into the photo's taken when I stood with protestors for Cheney's visit to NC before 2004 or Bush's big fundraiser with Tobacco Heir Cliff Benson where the SS were photgraphing everyone of us when they weren't fingering us and putting us in the "Free Speech CAGES."

Yeah...they are photographing us and documenting us just like they did during Vietnam War Protests.

It just comes with the territory. :shrug:

[NJCher]

227. Now they're not even bothering with costumes

At the 2000 marches at bush's inauguration, they had guys around doing surveillance in hippie garb. It was really funny. It was like they didn't know what to expect in a protestor for that type of event so they went with the "peace groovy" style from the 60s. Let's remember that until bush got into office, the fine art of protesting had nearly become extinct.

During that 2000 protest, I snapped a picture of this guy with his sign and we blew it up and could see he had an earpiece through which he was listening.

Effing jackasses. It enrages me that they use our tax dollars to spy on people who are simply asserting their right to free speech.

These two have that cocky "I can kick your ass" look and yeah, that's definitely a government-issued sweater. They wore them for the 2000 protest, too, trying to seem less intimidating than their Darth Vader get-ups.

Free country my ass. This is police state.

[NoSheep]

228. My feelings exactly. Our tax dollars at work. I am reminded of the term

"neighbor spying upon neighbor". How is this any different than that? They are part of the "party" that rules who are known to thumb their noses at our laws. The party who abuses our military for their own private gain. Our own people....against us. They absolutely should be confronted wherever possible.

[byronius]

234. There's the real problem. My tax dollars. Wasted.

All the training, all the institutional expense coming out of my pocket -- and a co-opted criminal government hires and trains guys like these and sends them out to do work that is meaningless, useless, ridiculous.

Now that I've said it, they look a little like clowns. Stupid, expensive clowns. Birthday party clowns.

I believe in the need for a military, and for a good intelligence infrastructure -- but this kind of assignment and these kinds of agents are an embarassment to the U.S.

I read 'incompetent'. I read 'great for makework, but useless for the real job'.

We're unprotected and riding the unreality train to hell...

[byronius]

235. PS: John Candy and Eugene Levy in 'Armed and Dangerous'. n/t

[glitch]

244. !

:rofl:

[truedelphi]

238. Everyone else has already SAID it for me but Thanks n/t

[Breeze54]

240. They look like undercover cops or FBI...

I'm not surprised!

The FBI was all over the place at the Anti-war march in Sept. '05.

I had an agent give me his card!!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

241. Been thinking about this all day

and he may have been Intel for DC, the FBI or just a reporter.

Being paranoid these days is not wrong, it is almost necessary.

[bagrman]

243. Your missing the little thing in your photo. Look at where the camera

bag strap goes by his waist. ummm What would have a square outline and hang out of his waist band 1 1/2" to 2"s. You can start a data base of odd balls at rallies and such because you can bet they have a data base of their own going.

Latr

Chris

[brentspeak]

246. Uh, what's the problem here, again?

You spotted two guys with crew-cuts taking photos of the protest, then tried to block the guy's camera by putting your sign in front of it. He then, quite understandably, yelled at you to "back off" (why did you think you had a right to stick a sign in his face?)

The top photograph shows one of the guys non-chalantly letting you take his picture. If these guys are federal agents, or something, they sure aren't being sneaky or duplicitous about it.

[mmonk]

249. .

"If these guys are federal agents, or something, they sure aren't being sneaky or duplicitous about it."
Who would they have to fear?

[martymar64]

334. Decoys

Watch for the ones that blend in, carrying signs, shouting the loudest. Agent provacateurs are all over the place ( A.N.S.W.E.R., I'm looking your way). These are the ones that start shit, allowing the pigs to come down hard on protestors. It's a trick older than Haymarket. COINTELPRO is still alive and kicking.
Besides, the best way to determine who they are is to follow them after they leave the protest. If they are innocent like you would like to believe, where they go will bear it out.
Who says they're the only ones allowed to conduct a little surveillence?

[Triana]

250. What a disgusting animal...

...why isn't he in a zoo?

[ocean girl]

252. Kick - big time!

[ptvet]

253. Check out these guy's

http://ptmccleese.smugmug.com/gallery/1412035#67239043

Saw a few of these guy's in NY, and many of the Agent Mike types as well...
I am on the list for sure :hi:

[CoffeeCat]

260. If they have your picture only...

...how do they know who you are?

I've always wondered what good it does these thugs to take
pictures of protesters. They're just pictures. They don't
know the identities of the people photographed, so why do
they do this?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

263. They look silly, hiding a white cord against black skin. May be decoys or just what they seem.

[Kerrytravelers]

257. Shame Mr. Photographer there is workin' for *. He's kinda cute!

[derby378]

261. Seriously, you need to make friends with some burly DUers

Nice to have someone in your corner in case things get really nasty.

All things considered, however, great job with the photos. As for that guy, I'm sure his film is in the bowels of the NSA building right now...

[Bernardo de La Paz]

262. Interesting, but you handled it badly for your objectives.

I entirely sympathize with the idea the Bush regime is about six years overdue for a change and that it is a waste of tax dollars to pay for such intensive surveillance of peaceful protest, so please do not take my suggestions as an attack of any kind. However, you seem to have two conflicting objectives and didn't do as well at either of them as you might have if you had thought it through. It is difficult to do that on your feet in a dynamically changing situation, which is why it is good to discuss these things before and after events so that participants can be prepared.

One objective you had was to gather information. You got his picture, but that was easy. You didn't get very good pictures, unfortunately, because you tried to combine that with confrontation, your other objective. You did get two mildly interesting pictures but only mildly. One sets the scene, the other is a bit of failed art. People have attempted to extract info from them but there is so much more that could have been done. I know, you didn't go intending to be a photojournalist, but perhaps you and hundreds of others who have had similar experiences to you, such as you write about in this thread, should be a little more pro-active and organized about really documenting what is going on, especially if there is the faintest chance of something happening or getting out of hand.

If you really wanted to get information, then what you do is you photograph the guy from a distance. You were using a wide angle lens (from the look of the perspective) probably on a simple point&shoot camera. You needed to step back and zoom in with the telephoto and take pictures of the guys without them suspecting. Walk behind and get pictures of his backpack. Great suggestion someone else made to take a picture of their shoes. You didn't get a clear picture of either man's face, your stated objective! Yes, I know, photography is not as easy as people think despite everybody having cameras ten times as good as they had 25 years ago.

With regard to the first shot, you could have been just a little patient and waited for him to finish, take his head away from his camera, notice you, look at you, and then you snap your picture with a full-face clear image. You didn't get a clear shot of his partner on his left either. The light is bad. The second shot is blurred from bad focus and the sun is creating flare in the lens because you weren't using a ten dollar lens hood.

The guy in the red sweater is a mystery too that nobody has remarked on (yes, you identified him as Mr NoSheep). What is that stick he has his sign on? It looks metallic and manufactured. Could it be a golf club? That would be a very foolish way to get arrested and have it confiscated since a club like that has no place at a protest and can be almost instantly lethal. Oh no, red sweater guy is wearing sunglasses! Does that make him instantly a goon? Oh no, red sweater guy has really short hair! Oh no, red sweater guy has his hand in his jacket pocket even though he isn't wearing the jacket! Is he holding a gun there? Perhaps red sweater guy was part of the team, pointing out the other two guys to see who would react. You reacted. Or white sweater woman on the right (with sunglasses, no less!) may have been on the team. She's watching you! Oh no, of five people in the row, all five people are wearing sunglasses! It's a conspiracy!

Paranoia has usefulness when it is managed professionally and handled coolly and unemotionally. Running off at the mouth and getting in the way and making a fuss may be emotionally satisfying but won't accomplish real objectives. By the way, once you had decided to make a confrontation, raising your voice and attracting attention was a good instinct and can save your ass in court with witnesses or friendly bystanders who might defuse a situation by dragging you away before it gets out of hand.

You could have gotten yet more info by taking a friendly approach, at least initially. Be cunning! "Hi, say, that's a really nice camera. Been taking pictures long? Yeah, I left my good one at home. Could I take a look through the viewfinder?" Then you quickly flip through the pictures on the back before he realizes what is happening. Or you ask him point blank, all friendly like, if he can show you the pictures. Get him to make the first mistakes or go too far. In the meantime you are observing the brand of the sunglasses and (as another suggested) his watch. His fingernails seem very short but your picture is not clear. No rings. Any detail could be significant.

After having taken sneaky pictures and gone as far as you could with honey, step back, take an obvious picture of him, and then segue smoothly into confrontation.

If your objective was confrontation, what was your real objective? To make life unbearable for him so that he couldn't get his job done? To convince him he's an asshole? To convince him that you've already tried and convicted him and are trying to get revenge for some other protest with some other cops some months ago? As others have pointed out, you have no solid evidence that they guy is on the "wrong side", and even if he was, he was with in his rights and the government's rights to take pictures in a public place. All your evidence is circumstantial, regardless of how powerfully suspicious a short haircut and matching sunglasses might be.

You stated that "maybe the scenario will make him think for just a split second in the future". The way you handled it, if he was antipathetic to the marchers, you confirmed it. That's what he'll think in that split second.

Thing is to be inventive and have some fun with the guy. That will really make him think. Ask him how much he pays in taxes and if he hesistates then look him right in the eye and ask him if he thinks this surveillance is a waste. Then wait for him to sputter. Ask him what good a doctor could accomplish with that camera. If you really want him to think and want him to question authority, you'll have to be much more cunning than you were. You can do it.

[reprehensor]

264. Scott Ritter could him.

He too, is hugh.

There's more of us, big boy.

[Octafish]

266. Pentagon employees.

IMFO: No one has time to get buffed up like that unless they're getting paid to.

Spookier types got no time and they have to fit in, so they look and stink like everybody else.

Private contractors most likely have families and they would also have different watches.

The guy does look like Terminator.



Did anyone try to talk with the scary fellah, NoSheep?

[farmbo]

267. Good God... It's Colonel Flagg from MASH!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Flagg

Remember the bumbling, Gung Ho CIA Colonel who was a running character on the MASH series? Some quotes from the series:

"I've trained myself not to laugh or smile. I watched a hundred hours of the Three Stooges; every time I felt like smiling or laughing, I jabbed myself in the stomach with a cattle prod."

"My father touched me like that once. To this day, he still has to wear orthopedic shirts."{Frank Burns tried to buddy up to Flagg by slapping him on the shoulder}

"You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me."

[ecoflame]

272. Speaking of Colonel Flagg

He died of Parkinson's.

[farmbo]

306. Yeah...Maybe that's what he'd like us to think

"I have no home. I am the wind."

:shrug:

[Imagevision]

268. No-wonder why today's anti-war protests can't compare to the 60's with

facial recognition software programs, Bush being able to listen in on your phone, look inside your mail...yeah, it's a new day baby!

[EVDebs]

271. Domestic spying, in Denver, is going to ramp up in '08 for the Dem Convention

CIA Plans to Shift Work to Denver
Domestic Division Would Be Moved

By Dana Priest
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, May 6, 2005; Page A21
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/05/AR2005050501860.html

[blockhead]

273. Fess up Agent Mike,

put your money where your mouth is.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

276. was it that sunny that they were wearing sunglasses?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

290. All Five were wearing sunglasses including our guy, Red Sweater Guy.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

310. what a give away!

[yurbud]

277. carry signal mirrors with you. If being watched, flash it in the lens. Or have a lot of people do

it and see if they can catch the camera on fire. Or his nuts.

[undergroundpanther]

286. He doesen't have any nuts

He has plastic "neuticles".LOL.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

291. Dumb idea. Wont work. Impractical. Don't waste our time, please.

[Mick Knox]

281. CIA or FBI..

fuck em.

[undergroundpanther]

283. What a scum

Looking at his body language he is a wannabe alpha male.
Just the sort of defensive turd-ball I like to irritate and torment and puncture the ego of..Anyways never believe the bluff of this kind of domineering shit head, they are nothing really bullies is what they are, morally inferior people,Scared little boys on steroids with a messiah complex..
If any jackass tries to hurt you, or dominate you,in a protest don't let him. Learn to fight dirty and go OFF, if a non badged non "official" thug tries to hurt you make sure sympathetic people witness the exchange. Don't bother to act sane and reasonable with an authoritarian ass hat at a certain point it won't do anything.. Freak him the hell out every-way till next sunday and most importantly DO NOT SUBMIT at all.These fuckers thrive on submission and implode with insecurity inside if they don't get it.It's simple Keep eye contact with the idiot , even though he has shades on,just drill your eyes right into his as if there was no shades.Give him the cat stare.. It unnerves these overgrown toddlers really bad.That's why they wear the shades.They want to appear machine like impersonal and of course in control, but really he is just another little boy servant posing as a "master" of the plebians.

[deaniac21]

327. Looks like everyone in the picture is wearing shades.

[lvx35]

289. Its a psych tactic.

more than anything they want to send the message to people that they are being watched. They can watch their lips kiss my ass though, its not about their rights. It would be fair if they identified themselves and their beliefs, just as the palestinian protesters were doing..But they didn't, they were DECIEVING and therefore were DICKS!!!

[NoSheep]

321. Exactly!

[Laurier]

292. Looks like

an Agent Mike type to me.

Crazy times.

[piesRsquare]

296. I think a lotta people around here

watch too much television.

The outfits? Blue jeans and black sweater (with "optional leather jacket") is an outfit seen all over the place during the winter season here in the San Francisco Bay Area. High priced, high tech photo hardware? Again, come here to Silicon Valley--you ain't seen nothin' yet. I see guys dressed like this, with cameras like this, and with hot-shot attitudes all the time. I know some of them, and have dated some of them (unfortunately).

Free Republic is located in Fresno, California, by the way. This guy could have been snapping shots for the site. Who the heck knows, and who the heck cares.

Gimme a break.

[Umbram]

304. Agreed.

I think it it's actually pretty sad this thread has gotten this many posts.

[dave123williams]

297. They're the President, Treasurer and Secretary of the Jeff Gannon Fan Club?

Just guessin.

[MagickMuffin]

301. Greg Helmsley

I just found out (so I don't know if anyone else suggested Greg) about Greg Helmsley from a thread I started when someone posted the link to Greg Helmsley.

He's no longer with us........

My link
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x74393

Link to Helmsley's post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3064964&mesg_id=3067325

[NoSheep]

319. Where is the link someone posted in your thread?

[vickitulsa]

302. NoSheep, my response to your pics and report was intense flashbacks...

...to about ten years ago when I came close to marrying a former Navy SEAL.

What came across most strongly to me was your powerful sense of the utter menace these guys projected. I think it's hard to overstate how significant this part of the story is.


I'm 57 now, but in the past I was attracted to men much like my abusive father, who was a WWII combat vet and then a career state trooper. The Navy SEAL I nearly married was the last time in my life I yielded to the pull these types have on my affection.

Mark had served two very busy tours in Vietnam, then after the war he was in SEAL Team Six, the first counterterrorist SEAL team, led and trained by Richard "Demo Dick" Marcinko.

The ironic thing about this type of man is that if you ever felt you needed to be protected, guarded, kept safe, they're the first ones you might turn to!

But it's that same sense of deadly power that in every other setting ends up chilling you to the bone in their presence, too. That's the feeling I got from your description of your experience at the rally, NoSheep. Flashed me back to times with Mark when I would find myself shuddering at his violent potential, even though he always treated me lovingly.

He used to say that his M.O. was to show up at someone's door unexpectedly, with either "open arms or small arms."

It was a sort of joke, ya see, but then he wasn't really joking, either....

Mark wasn't a phony or a talkative braggart, and in fact he only spoke of the "dark side" of his life when I pushed to know more about it. When he did open up, he'd tell me things that made my blood run cold. Experiences in Vietnam, training ops in his SEAL team (I saw plenty of pics and even film of those) ... and then later, after he left the Navy, the most scary ops of all he participated in were when he worked for awhile in "the Rhodesian Pipeline." That's mercenary work, as some here probably know.

During that time, he hired out for the government -- various agencies, sometimes not even knowing precisely which agency was making use of his skills. He had to keep up with changing identities they provided for him, which at times, he said, could make you a little crazy just trying to remember who you were at any point.

"They" worked him in the Middle East just before he quit, and he said it was ops there that finally made him see that he was no longer working for the "good guys." Said he found himself in Lybia training terrorists in demolitions, and no matter what lie they told him about why that was a good thing to do, he knew it was NOT.

So he quit, and he turned against those who ran ops using guys like him. It wasn't easy for him to admit that he'd been wrong, that the very real (to him) ideals for which he thought almost any deadly means might be justified were NOT being held sacred by his "employers" anymore -- if they ever had been.

These are the intense emotional flashbacks that reminded me just how scary guys like this can be up close and personal, as you encountered the two guys at the protest. I know EXACTLY what you felt in terms of the "deadly vibes" ... it's almost palpable, isn't it?, the way these sorts can convey the ice-cold menace of force and of power -- the greater but indistinct governmental power that is behind them, too, I mean.

So people can say what they want about our being too paranoid or letting our imaginations run away with us. I don't care. I've lived with and loved a guy who used to be "one of them," and I KNOW just how dangerous and scary they can be, and what they're capable of.

Still and all, some of them do retain their humanity, somewhere under all that programming they submit to. We can hope, perhaps, to reach out to THAT in them and awaken them to the harm they're doing.

Hey, if Mark woke up after how gung-ho he'd been at one time, then there's hope for anyone!


Oh, and good on you for confronting them! I hope more and more of us find it in us to refuse to be intimidated.

[NoSheep]

316. Thank you for your post. I realize everyone here didn't FEEL what I felt from them.

These guys were dead obvious in their intentions. A direct link to the problems in America today. Blind obedience to power. Ratting out fellow citizens for speaking out against a criminal administration. That is PLENTY to be outraged about. People like this HAVE to be confronted for whatever little good it may do.

I am happy for you that you were able to get away from someone like this. I have known the desire of wanting to be protected by a strong person...but when they are without a conscience one must get quickly.

:hug:

[dave123williams]

323. Well, they *were* doing their duty as they saw it...

The problem is that they're not real big *thinkers*, and that's why they're doing the jobs they do. Not a lot of reflection on why it's wrong.

[NoSheep]

329. You raise a very good point here. If they are who I think they are, they

have no doubt been immersed in a culture that teaches them this is right; teaches them they are serving their country, yet I feel very strongly that they have been misled and they are not. I wanted them to know not everyone agrees. That's why we were in DC. To say, WAIT! This is our country too. Those are our tax dollars too! And we feel this is all a huge mistake about to be made even worse. Don't be a part of that problem...
Like I said, for whatever it was worth.

[mondo joe]

312. I think you both took photos of other people in public.

That's the extent of it.

[Burnsey_Koenig]

322. Just because you are paranoid

doesn't mean they are out to get you.

You asked for our thoughts, so here are mine:

From my standpoint, they look like two gay men with the same "clone" buzz cut that is popular in our culture, and outta curiosity, why do you feel you had the right to block his camera and try to start something with him if he was only taking pictures? Did you get into everybodys face that didn't seem to meet your expectations of what a "protester" should look like? What about the guy with the video camera in the second picture? Did you intentionally try to stir the shit with him too?

How quickly you forget that this Iraq Occupation has people of many stripes upset and protesting. There are many military famalies that are also part of this movement, and why do you think you are the arbiter of all things protest?

And by the way, if you intentionally tried to start something with him, by blocking his camera as you stated, then you are no better than those who came to disrupt the protest for nefarious reasons. Your attempt to escalate what you only suspected as an intrusion on "your" march was in no way different than the tactics police used in the past.

What a shame, "we" have so quickly become "them".

[NoSheep]

328. How do I know? Because I didn't just fall off a turnip truck!

[deaniac21]

325. I think I know these guys. I believe they are Blackwater snipers.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

333. Some guys sprayed pepper spray a while back at another march.

They found out that this person was a cop or agent - I can't remember which.

[ContraBass Black]

340. He could be a news photographer.

He was taking pictures of people outdoors, in public, at a massive demonstration, and you obstructed, challenged, yelled at, and photographed him.

That's all your story says.

[Sammy Pepys]

346. I'm not sure what the problem is....

Some dude taking pictures. Big deal.