How does one man kill four cops

[malaise]

in a coffee shop and leave with a gun belonging to one of the cops. Was the coffee shop empty?
This story isn't making too much sense.
By the way Fuckabee actually made sense today - a 99 year prison sentence for burglary by a 16 year old was beyond excessive.

[Shell Beau]

1. The element of surprise. Being caught off guard.

And what customer would charge a man with a gun?

[MineralMan]

2. Yeah, it's surprise. At close range, surprise wins every time.

Very sad business.

[Oregone]

3. Firing off a clip of rounds with a semi-auto from a close backwards angle could easily be done...

before one cop was able to aim a gun.

If they were in a stall, two facing each way, itd be even easier

[anonymous171]

4. It was staged by the cops so they would have an excuse to kill more minorities.

[Shell Beau]

11. I certainly hope you are being sarcastic because the white

cops killed don't matter, right?

[virgogal]

34. What a nasty comment. Having a bad day?

[pecwae]

41. Ok, then.

You may want to check the bigotry and stupidity in replies before actually posting them.

[Soylent Brice]

5. gun kata

[sharp_stick]

6. 4 cops doing paperwork

at a coffeeshop, not too hard at all to get the drop on them. Come in with a semiautomatic and they'd go down within a few seconds.

The fact that they're sitting down makes it difficult to get a weapon out and they're surprised.

Huckabee never makes sense and the only good thing that comes out of this is his pathetic and warped political career is now in the fucking toilet where it belongs.

[malaise]

8. OK - that seems possible

I hate Fuckabee but even a stopped clock gets it right twice a day.

[sharp_stick]

24. Point taken about the stopped clock

but I hate Huckabee enough that I won't give it to him. The way he tries to spin that folksy charm into pretending to be a nice guy when you know he's hiding a radical fundie agenda at least on par with Mooseilini just makes my skin crawl.

Add to that the fact this is the second commutation of his that resulted in further murders pretty much cuts him out of any clear conscience IMO. Remember he let that rapist go free a few years ago who then raped and killed in Missouri. I hope he loses sleep for the rest of his life over his role in the murders these people have committed, being a fundie dirtbag though he probably prayed on it with some other willing sheep and thinks he's now in the clear.

I think it was ABC that reported that Huckabee in one term as Gov of Arkansas commuted more sentences than the total of the previous 17 years. I think it was all political payback for that prick.

[SoCalDem]

42. probably sitting in a booth..with laptops on the table in front of them

they would not have noticed "a guy" coming into the coffee shop, until he opened fire on them.

If the cops on the outside were shot, they would have blocked the escape of the cops on the inside seats at the booth.

Our IHOP is a cop-hangout, and every time my friend and I go there late at night, there are usually 3 or 4 cops in a booth, immersed in their paperwork

the one cop who managed to follow the guy outside and wounded him, had his weapon taken after he fell to the ground outside..

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Easy... come in shoot them

I am betting either specialized rounds or head shots. People are so shocked at what they are seeing that most human animals will actually freeze.

So while everybody else is shocked... and standing there. he takes side arm and leaves.

Remember I did EMS for ten years... so I know, unlike Hollywood's way of portraying reality. unless you are trained... most people freeze.

I've been in a couple situations where my training took over, and that led to a few questions from officers... once they realized that yes, training took over... thanks Ma'am, have a good day.

My favorite was oh decades now ago. We went to watch the Last Temptation of Christ. Long lines. We were in it, when cops came in from both sides and took out shotguns. I dove... and then pulled both sis and a friend down, who like most people were gawking at this. Cops coming out, shotguns ready, or side arms is not a common sight. Well, after it was over an officer, the Sergeant in charge, walked over and asked HOW?

I'm a medic in Tijuana officer.

Ok, was just wondering.

There were over 500 people there and I caught their attention, since I dove for cover. Yes training took over.

[malaise]

26. I'll defer to the experts

but this one seems weird.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. I know it does

But that is why the police and army train people on how to properly react.

Hell I was a Medic... but we were still trained on what to do, and how to crawl and all that. Train as you fight, fight as you train...

Most humans freeze and that is that... and the cops, well he got the surprise element on them. You can empty a clip in six seconds flat after all. (And Clemmens was a good shot. I've seen people miss at point blank more times than people could even comprehend)

Here is another amusing one, of them training took over.

Hubby is a submariner and has seen actual combat, with bullets... long story. Suffice it to say, wrong place right time.

So we are standing in the kitchen.... BOOOOMMM!!!

I hit the deck hands on top of head... hubby goes down looking for the side arm that is not there and where the dam threat is coming from.

Well after we realized them were fireworks, hilarity and laughter (nervous that is) ensued. We had another one of those at a ren fair, with brother and sister in law, now retired police officers... fun times I tell ya. (And when the training is not that good to have) But it saved me behind a couple times... over. And I suspect that if I need to get out of a shoot out. as long as I have not been hit, I think I can get my ass out of the line of fire.

[TheCowsCameHome]

9. Is this guy alive or dead? News reports are all over the lot.

This morning I heard he was dead. Now it appears he's still being hunted.

I've been away all day - what gives?

[malaise]

16. Well according to M$Greedia

he's dead. Please don't tell me they shot a man who was repairing his car.

[juajen]

10. I was asking myself the same question. I'm also not sure

why they knew right away who killed the four policemen. I am also suspicious of the gun. Why would he even need it? I believe it was planted to make sure they were not accused of hasty judgment and killing. After all, who could say it wasn't him, if he had one of the victim's guns. Something doesn't sound right.

How did they know it was him in the first place? We are not being told much. I have no sympathy for him if he is, indeed, the killer. Just want to know why it's ok to have vigilante justice by the police, but not by civilians, and what happened to being innocent until proven guilty? I'm waiting for more info; but, so far, I'm not getting it.

[Fleshdancer]

12. killing them is easy since they were at the same table. As for grabbing a gun...

I would guess that the remaining people (how many were there anyway?) were too stunned and scared to stop him from taking whatever the hell he wanted at that point.

We all like to secretly think we would have ninja like reflexes in insane situations like that, but we don't.

[juajen]

40. The problem with that scenario is that an officer was said to have

chased him out of the coffee shop. If the supposed killer was wounded and being pursued out of the coffee shop, at what time did he grab a gun?

[jasi2006]

13. The bit about him having one of the officer's guns is a bit much,.

More likely planted to justify shooting this criminal. I for one think his death a moral victory for the law and justice system. Providing this is the right guy, it sure saves a lot of time, money, and heartache.

[onenote]

28. why is it a bit much

He was in a struggle with the fourth cop, who managed to shoot him before being going down. How hard would it have been for the shooter to pick up that cop's gun before running out? Answer: not hard at all.

[Tejas]

33. "More likely planted"

Nice hate you have going there, can't wait for more of your uninformed drivel.

[slackmaster]

14. His chief weapon was surprise

Surprise, and fear...

His TWO chief weapons were surprise, fear, and ruthless efficiency...

[seabeyond]

15. walks past, turns, two head shots immediate death, one standing up to draw, dead

the other out of chair going for the mans gun as he is going towards door.....

[gratuitous]

17. The solution: More guns

See, if the baristas in the coffee shop had been packing, they could have shot Clemmons (or whoever the shooter was). What we really need is for more people to have guns, and be on hair-trigger alert to use them at any time. Sure, there will be some unfortunate accidents from time to time, but isn't that better than having four police officers shot dead? At least, that's what I infer from some of the commentary I've seen, heard and read in the last few days.

Or we could think of something else that didn't involve an escalation in firearms and violence. But that's crazy talk, that is.

[malaise]

19. A profound post

as usual. :hi:

[gratuitous]

30. Thanks

It's been a rough couple of weeks for folks proposing or searching for non-violent solutions. :hi:

[slackmaster]

32. It seems to me that keeping the guy in prison would have solved the problem nicely

Without any violence.

[gratuitous]

35. There's a solution

We're keeping quite a number of people in prison, but we don't seem very willing to pay for that. State and local tax measures to run facilities, including jails and prisons, routinely get voted down, and legislators who propose paying for all the services that government provides are mocked in the local media, scorned by the public, and voted out of office at the earliest opportunity.

If we're really going to lock up more of our citizens than any other country on the planet, we really should get serious about paying for it if that's what we really want to do. Of course, we could also re-order our society in a way such that violence isn't the default solution to any situation, but that would take oh-so-much time and cut into the profits of a very influential, significant and wealthy segment of society.

[slackmaster]

37. A lot of people are in prison for non-violent, victimless crimes

Like drug possession.

[malaise]

38. Sometimes I wonder if DU hasn't been

captured by aliens :evilgrin:

[Better Today]

18. Quickly.

[dgibby]

20. Here's what CNN is reporting.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/01/washington.suspect.shot/index.html

[malaise]

25. So in the pitch black night he identified Clemmons

Although the medical examiner has not formally identified the man shot and killed in south Seattle about 2:45 a.m., detectives recognized him as Maurice Clemmons, sought in the killings of four Lakewood, Washington, police officers shot Sunday at a coffee shop, Seattle police said in the written statement.
----------------

So this bad ass criminal man who killed four cops approached the cop's car with no weapon drawn?

So what if the man they shot and killed was not Clemmons?

[anigbrowl]

36. There are these things called flashlights and streetlights...

I would not be surprised if they existed even in the far north of Washington state.

[Schema Thing]

21. bang bang, bang bang.

...then several more bang bang bangs.

[paulsby]

22. he didn't kill them with THEIR gun

he had a gun. the barista saw it for pete's sake.

he took oneof their guns as he fled, apparently. that's different.

fwiw, i'm a firearms instructor. i could pull this shooting off, as could any reasonable shot. he's within a few feet of them, he has the "drop" so to speak, and they are in condition yellow (maybe) or white. this isn't the kennedy assassination. it doesn't take a magic bullet. it takes a DECENT shot with a handgun, even a revolver, could pull this off.

i've done similar drills with multiple targets at the range (ouda loop and el presidente drills) and could get off four headshots at close range in under 1 second (under 1 second between the first and last shot). it's not rocket science. apparently, after he plugged the first two, the 3 rd got up and got plugged and the fourth managed to get a hold of him, and shoot him (at least once) before he got killed.

[Generic Other]

23. One of the cops shot him...so they tried to respond...

The two baristas fled when he pulled the gun. They called 911. I don't think there were more than two other customers. It was brazen. An ambush. one cop struggled with him.

Afterwards, his family tried to hide him, to throw false leads to the police. They are in jail for aiding and abetting. He told friends what he intended to do before taking action. The cops followed his bloodstained trail. They found his truck with blood in side. Relatives and friends helped him escape. Some eventually called the tiplines themselves.

He didn't want to be caught because he knew he would be facing life without possibility of parole at the very least under Washington's three strikes law.

The police knew he was armed, and they knew he had nothing to lose by running. Except his life. This guy earned a tombstone. He could have placed his hands in the air and guaranteed a long trial process with years of legal wrangling. He chose the fast track.

Local ci5tizens were traumatized for days. And it's not over. Go find Huckabee if you want to investigate whose fault it is.

I for one think this guy got what he deserved. He was in control of the situation until the very end. Case closed. I have no doubt whatsoever that they got their man.

You are not hearing a single soul in the Puget Sound area criticizing the police response. Not a one. Only on DU.

[malaise]

27. OK then

Thanks for the update.

[RaleighNCDUer]

29. Quickly. nt

[Retired AF Dem]

39. Thats easy

Four cops sitting in a public place in "condition white" on their computers. Shooting fish in a barrel. During my LE days I drummed into my younger officers minds everyday, when you are wearing that uniform you are a target. Always, always, always watch everybody.