To the War Supporters

[subsuelo]

If George W. Bush had given that speech, you'd be up here crying and complaining about war mongering, it's all about oil (which, btw, yes, it still is), how we must leave a.s.a.p., how we never had any right to be there in the first place (which, we don't), how it's costing too much (which, it is), how awful it is to continue a meaningless war, blah blah blah blah blah

But now that O-bomb-a gave the same speech we heard from Bush for 8 years, it's like, oh we gotta support our president, we have a job to finish, excuses excuses excuses.

I tell you what, War Supporters. You really need to do some *serious* self-reflection tonight.

O-bomb-a ain't no better than George W. Bush tonight.

NO BETTER.

[DontTreadOnMe]

1. Hope is not a plan

War is not the answer.

[debbierlus]

2. I see no argument of substance for the policy, the supporters are throwing in soley because of Obama

The same with his sell out on health care.

[moodforaday]

84. self-delete

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

96. Perhaps you're not looking hard enough?

[Solomon]

3. Okay I'll bite. I just asked this in a thread.

We know that Bush did it for oil and defense, eseentially enriching himself. Tell us why Obama is doing it?

Is he doing it for some personal gain? What's in it for Obama?

[JuniperLea]

5. Seems that politically, it's the worst possible thing he could do...

So there must be something to it... I suspect he's telling the truth.


We all wanted Bush to pull out of Iraq and put those troops in Afghanistan... so now Obama does it, and now it's bad. Go figure.

[subsuelo]

8. we never had any right to be in either Iraq or Afghanistan

The only reason we're there is to secure the region's natural resources.

Every other excuse is completely delusional.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

98. Wars are rarely fought for one reason and one reason only.

Pretending otherwise is what's "delusional".

[Proud Liberal Dem]

64. +1

I seem to recall that being what most of us (myself included) were arguing for during the past 8 years and Obama put us on notice during the campaign that he intended to essentially reverse what Bush did by bringing troops home from Iraq and re-focusing on Afghanistan. Had Bush/Cheney given Afghanistan the attention it deserved during the past 8 years instead of diverting money and resources to Iraq, we might be in a better position there. Now that Obama is POTUS, a lot of people here are acting as though they're shocked and surprised that Obama is actually doing it- with a timetable for exiting no less.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

97. You don't think the worst thing he could do politically is ensure an American loss in Afghanistan?

[dflprincess]

48. We'll find out after he's out of office

So many politicians seem to do so well after leaving "public service".

[Xicano]

79. Why is Obama doing it?

If you really don't understand why I would recommend reading two books. "The Grand Chessboard" and "Hoodwinked (by J. Perkins)."

[JuniperLea]

4. Bullshit

We all begged Bush to pull out of Iraq and put those troops into Afghanistan... now that Obama has done it, it is somehow a bad thing.

If he falls back on the timetable, then I'll bitch.

[subsuelo]

6. I must have missed the news

When did Obama pull out of Iraq?

I'll believe it when I see it

[JuniperLea]

12. You just finked on yourself...

You didn't listen to the speach at all, did you?

Welcome to ignore... life is too short for fake assholes... the world is full enough of real ones.

[subsuelo]

17. uh huh

:eyes:

[Jakes Progress]

24. Welcome to ignore land.

She puts everyone who calls out her inconsistencies and silliness on ignore.

It is a blessing.

[dana_b]

28. oh no!

Don't cry!! ;)

[subsuelo]

39. I'll be ok

I think.

;)

[knightinwhitesatin]

42. there are still over

100,000 troops in Iraq and now there will be 100,000 troops in Afghanistan. Subsuelo raises a valid point.

[TK421]

91. Juniper, I really don't believe this person is a fake or insincere at the least

but Iraq IS on-going....that mess is still far from over

I don't believe this is a smart choice- our military can be stretched only so far, and this conflict, I feel will only push it to it's breaking point

I respect you and your posts, but I feel that the aforementioned poster is sincere in his/her beliefs

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

100. A slight drawdown has occured with plans for it to pick up momentum after the 2010 election

[bvar22]

32. Please!

You don't speak for me or all of DU.

"We all begged Bush to pull out of Iraq and put those troops into Afghanistan."

I don't believe you could even say a "majority" begged Bush to do this.

Some of us have OPPOSED the initial military invasion of Afghanistan in preference for an International Law Enforcement approach.


BTW: Ad populum (The Bandwagon) IS a logical fallacy.

[scarletwoman]

55. Thank you! I NEVER supported invading Afghanistan -- not once, not ever.

I joined DU in fall of 2001 explicitly to voice my objections against it. Not that my opinion wasn't drowned out in the general hysteria of the time, but I never once wavered from it in all the years hence.

Damn! I just can barely stand it anymore. So much fucked up shit. To think that people still wanna buy the same crap after all these years... :banghead:

sw

[bvar22]

56. I was here in 2001,

...and also consistently and vocally opposed the invasion of Afghanistan.
There was a comfortable group of us....not a majority, but a strong minority.

We were right then.
We ARE right today.

[scarletwoman]

62. I know. You've always been one of my favorite DUers (even though you left Minnesota)

Our loss. :)

Yes, we were right then and still are. At least we aren't quite so much the minority now -- for all the good it will do... :(

:pals:
sw

[chill_wind]

81. Whoah! Thanks for catching that. That's the second time

I've seen that general "we" assertion in the last couple days.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

101. The majority did not oppose military intervention in Afghanistan.

[SammyWinstonJack]

60. Who is 'we'? I never supported going into Afghanistan or IRAQ.

:shrug: And this escalation is bullshit we can not afford for many reasons.

[Amonester]

67. He will fall back on the timetable.

There will be another BS excuse, something like "the job isn't finished yet" (or another one similar), and you know it.

Donation$ from warmonger$ trump peace.

Blood on thy hands.

[Vidar]

70. K&R.

[blindpig]

80. we?

You gotta mouse in your pocket?

[moodforaday]

83. There is no such thing as "we all".

And I don't recall ever begging anyone for more war. Speak for yourself only, please.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

99. Agreed.

[Bryn]

7. I don't support war

but I support Obama. Bush and Cheney really messed it up. Obama is going to do it right.

[HillGal]

53. You can't have it both ways, either this war is wrong or it's not. NT

[Bryn]

65. You're right

I take it back. I hate wars more than anything. Just trying to see things through rose colored glasses. :(

[mkultra]

107. correct, and this war is NOT wrong.

its the war Bush should have fought and didn't.

[moodforaday]

85. That's where the core disagreement lies.

There is no "right" way to do a war, especially a war of aggression. And especially not by prolonging it.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

104. Is this a "war of aggression"?

[Capn Sunshine]

9. how so many cretinous fools can be signed up here and get over a thousand posts

without any notice just boggles the mind

[subsuelo]

14. sorry to oppose murdering Afghanistans for their natural resources

I realize how difficult that position is to accept, for some.

[AndrewP]

26. It's puzzling, isn't it?

[AndrewP]

27. It's puzzling, isn't it?

[azmouse]

47. Alert, alert, alert.

Maybe...eventually... we'll get something done about them.

[moodforaday]

89. They got their thousand posts in

when Bush was prez and war was still bad, so they didn't like the war. Now they do like it, because now it's different. Does that answer your question?

[jpak]

10. No - because Bush NEVER GAVE THAT SPEECH AND NEVER WOULD

"it's all about oil"?

When did Obama discover oil in Afghanistan?

Are Obama's cronies waiting in the wings to strike it rich with a pipeline?

"blah blah blah blah blah" - sums up your post nicely...

:thumbsdown:

[PeaceNikki]

11. Where were you during the campaign?

I can't believe you all are shocked by this. He SAID he'd increase troops in Afghanistan. He SAID it's he "real central front in the war on terror" during his campaign.

People only heard the stuff they wanted to hear.

[subsuelo]

18. excuses excuses

[PeaceNikki]

20. wut?

[dflprincess]

50. And during the campaign he SAID he opposed mandated insurance

oh wait.. I guess he can change his mind about some things.

Nevermind

[harun]

66. It aint the f*ckin campaign and he already increased troops once.

[Fire1]

82. Surprise, surprise surprise. n/t

[PeaceNikki]

86. Whatever THAT means.

I am not shocked. Not even a little. Know why? Cuz I heard what Obama said during the campaign. I didn't agree with some of it, but I HEARD it. I am more shocked and angry that he's not the fierce advocate for LGBT rights he said he was. I am more shocked an and angry that he isn't advocating better HCR. I am not pleased with last night's speech but I sure as hell am NOT shocked.

[NYC Liberal]

13. If you think this was the same speech we were hearing from Bush,

you had your head in the sand for 8 years.

I feel sorry for you.

[subsuelo]

16. Fine, tell me what's different. Choice of words?

[NYC Liberal]

22. NO words from Bush. That's the difference.

He didn't do jack shit for 7 or so years in Afghanistan. And this explosion of outrage here about Afghanistan on DU never happened all throughout Bush's term.

[subsuelo]

46. It's still a matter of words, then. Right?

[dflprincess]

52. In some ways you're correct

this reminded me more of one of Nixon's "Vietnamazation" speeches than anything Bush might have said.

[still_one]

15. An interesting point. I wonder if anyone is honest enough to answer you? /nt

[knightinwhitesatin]

19. I brought that up over in GDP

and said they subcontracted the speech out to Bush and holy hell did I unleash a jihad on my ass

[tjwash]

21. Really? Bush said that he was withdrawing the troops out of Iraq, did he?

Can we see the transcripts of that one?

[bvar22]

35. As a matter of fact, Bush DID.

Obama is following the timetable for withdrawal proposed by Bush in mid-2007, and ratified by the Iraqi government.

[subsuelo]

36. oh ok, now I see the huge difference

:eyes:

[bring_em_home_bush]

44. how about the words of the Chimperor himself, good enough for you?

September 8, 2008

We've now brought home all five of the Army combat brigades, the Marine Expeditionary Unit, two Marine battalions, that were sent to Iraq as part of the surge. I was proud to visit with some of those troops at Fort Bragg earlier this year. They are among our nation's finest citizens, and they have earned the gratitude and respect of the American people. (Applause.)

Another aspect of our "return on success" policy in Iraq is reduced combat tours. Last month, troops began deploying for 12-month tours instead of 15-month tours. This change will ease the burden on our forces, and I think more importantly, this change will make life for our military families easier. (Applause.)

I'm pleased to announce the next step forward in our policy of "return on success." General Petraeus has just completed a review of the situation in Iraq -- and he and the Joint Chiefs of Staff have recommended that we move forward with additional force reductions, and I agree. Over the next several months, we'll bring home about 3,400 combat support forces -- including aviation personnel, explosive ordnance teams, combat and construction engineers, military police, and logistical support forces.

By November, we'll bring home a Marine battalion that is now serving in Anbar Province. And in February of 2009, another Army combat brigade will come home. This amounts to about 8,000 additional American troops returning home without replacement. And if progress in Iraq continues to hold, General Petraeus and our military leaders believe additional reductions will be possible in the first half of 2009.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2008/09/mil-080909-whitehouse01.htm

[Bluerthanblue]

23. I can be against sending troops to Afghanistan and not need to equate

Pres.O with Bush-

I don't need to play childish word games with his name- talk about how "duped" we are- how inept the "Dem's" are- or claim to be a "REAL Liberal/Progressive/Democrat" while using this speech to justify my own asshole-ry.

I DON'T like this decision. I don't know many people that do- but I suggest you start the *serious* self-reflection Subsuelo.

It's one thing to have legitimate criticism of the position Pres.Obama has chosen- all the petty garbage playing on DU tonite is quite another.

and says far more about the state of each one of us, than anything else.

i'm ashamed and disappointed- but not surprised.

[TwilightGardener]

25. Well, I supported our efforts in Afghanistan. Don't assume everyone here

was always against it. That's a recent creation.

[subsuelo]

30. I realize some like to support war regardless of who is in office

Congratulations, I guess

[TwilightGardener]

31. Well, no, you're assuming again. I don't "support war" in general unless

there's a national-defense reason for it--no matter who is President.

[subsuelo]

33. since "national defense" is a total lie

What else are we left to assume?

[TwilightGardener]

37. I believe we have still some national security interests there, so our conversation must end.

[subsuelo]

40. yeah, if you mean interests in securing Afghanistan's natural resources

[dionysus]

72. would that be the poppies or the imaginary pipeline that doesn't exist?

[dionysus]

71. one of the biggest problems you guys have is you act as if your opnions are fact.

because to explain that frame you'd have to believe that terrorism doesn't exist and that obama's in it for oil, which makes one look rather foolish.

[subsuelo]

94. I take it you're a War Supporter

quit watching CNN and wake up

[dionysus]

109. no, actually i am not. however i can understand the viewpoint of others, even if i don't agree with

them.

there are people who think we owe it them to fix the place before we leave.

i see a lot of people howling about lives lost, but if we just left immediately and the taliban took back over and slaughtered a ton of people, you're de facto saying the afghans lives don't mean shit.

if you can admit you don't give a crap what happens to them, just that we leave, then you hold no moral high ground at all.

[RedCloud]

29. Yep this war will define the Obama nation that we have before us.

[NoSheep]

34. That is a most simplistic statement and quite rude to thoughtful people.

I don't support WAR. I support common sense. I support a reasonable person coming to a reasonable decision about how to END this war and THAT is what I heard Obama do tonight.

[subsuelo]

38. thoughtful people think ending war is increasing the troops eh?

Now *that* is an insult to thoughtful people

[NoSheep]

45. No. Thoughtful people consider reality.

I heard nothing but a limited plan to get out... Did you notice the time line? Did you notice the discussion about how we cannot afford these wars? Do you have one of those little Playschool thingies that you pull a string on and it gives you one of twelve animal sounds? Hello!!!! There are more than 12 animal sounds.

I'm sorry. This is a passionate issue. I am completely against war to resolve issues COMPLETELY..but the Bush administration so ruined our security and made such a mess of things that I feel it is a reasonable stretch to believe this is a necessary step in getting us out of there. He could have said "I'm ending it today" and do you think realistically we could expect it to be over in 18 months? He said we are doing this to train these people and we are leaving. I believe that is his intention. There was a great deal of overt speaking about the truth he did tonight that doesn't even seem to phase some people as nuance.

I know. Nothing I can say will change the way you feel. MY IDEAL is something entirely different from present reality. Because there are SO MANY people who do NOT share my IDEAL, I have to believe this is as good as it gets and that's not too bad considering the morons we had raping and pillaging before.

Reality. It's complicated to disagree because you have high ideals yet have to agree because this is the best anyone could do with this situation and that's the way I see it.

[Myrina]

41. He repeatedly mentioned "our interests" in Afghanistan ...

... who is the "our" he was referring to, and what exactly are those "interests"??

Just curious.

[subsuelo]

43. they never really say do they

It's always just "our interests"

I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't have "interests" in Afghanistan

[C_Lawyer09]

49. Actually no

I've been taking mucho heat about any criticism of Obama to this point. This happens to be the right leadership at the right time. The most surprising element of his speech was it was not open ended, and he did clearly state finite goals and a definite time line. The one thing that many on du conveniently forget is that we are not privy to much of what happens on a daily basis vis a vis the daily security briefings. Especially what NSA constantly monitors. Now, is this a risky proposition? Without a doubt. I have little faith in either the Pakistani or Afghani govt. to step up to the plate security wise, regardless of how much outside training is provided. That said, I feel it is inherent on our government to attempt to leave Pakistan and their nukes much more secure than they are right now, and to at least attempt to provide alternatives to opium production for Afghani farmers while ensuring the security they would need in the transition without getting limbs lopped off. Obama put forth a pragmatic and balanced plan, regardless of the fact that we all can acknowledge that it a tenuous endeavor at best.

[gravity]

51. If Bush had a reasonable plan to get out, I would support it

I never believed that cut and run is in the best interest of this country or the middle east. I just wanted some competent leadership and realistic goals and objectives that we can leave a stable government in place before we leave. If it takes a troop surge to accomplish it, then I am for it.

[glitch]

54. All the people cheering this war need to sign up for it. PERIOD. Keyboard commandos make me vomit.

Even the ones saying tsk tsk, what a shame we have to escalate this war but I trust my President. Get a room.

If you think we have to escalate the war sign up for it. They are taking middle-aged grandparents and young single mothers, you have no excuse to stay behind.

Do your fucking duty.

[Bobbie Jo]

74. Awesome! I'll re-enlist when you coordinate a march on DC!

Keep me posted w/ dates and details, etc...

[mkultra]

108. that kind of insult only goes one way.

he thinks hes doing good work running his mouth on a message board.

[SammyWinstonJack]

57. K&R

[earth mom]

58. Call em what the really are: Warmongers.

:puke:

[FrenchieCat]

59. I've hit the motherlode!

I just want to watch in awe those who now have a chance to preen in their Utopian ideological sun, as some of us get front row seats to the very shallow intellectual fashion show where the choir will sing to the choir about death, despair, and try to outdo one another on how
condescendingly they can describe this President and his supporters, while doing a hearty-har-har routine, all the time feigning to be shocked, outraged, and dissapointed, although they knew pretty much what was going to happen all along....

Meanwhile conveniently ignoring that this President announced plans to withdraw
out of Afghanistan.....

Twist all you want, and yet that withdrawal plan no one wants to comment on
will still be there.

Must suck.

[subsuelo]

61. Sorry to oppose bombing the people of Afghanistan to protect wealthy corporate interests

I know that kind of attitude catches flak sometimes around here.

[knightinwhitesatin]

63. What's more shallow

people bitching about a speech or people bitching about people bitching about a speech.

So when more americans start dying from the surge, will our anger then be shallow? Just curious....

[xiamiam]

69. no one wants to comment on the withdrawal plan because it doesnt make sense

its ridiculous to expect anyone to buy it...we will be in this quagmire for the rest of my life probably..lets escalate for one and one half years and then leave one and one half years after that..its a stretch to believe that no matter how much one likes our president

[dionysus]

73. WHY DO YOU WANT TO KILL TEH BABIES!!11!! *explode*

:silly:

[blindpig]

75. The so-called withdrawal plan is as insubstantial as your post.

n/t

[moodforaday]

87. "Announced plans to withdraw"

"Meanwhile conveniently ignoring that this President announced plans to withdraw out of Afghanistan....."

Your Honor, I can't be put in jail! It's just not right! I have already announced my plan to stop beating my wife, haven't I? I'll stop beating her in 18 months, depending on the situation in our home. It's my sincere intention to do that, Your Honor!

[Echo In Light]

68. K&R

[thewiseguy]

76. How is the Afghanistan war about oil?

[subsuelo]

77. natural resources, gas mostly, but oil is included

Occupying Afghanistan provides a strategic location from which to maintain control over oil corridors

[moodforaday]

90. Oil, pipelines, same thing.

The Afghan Pipeline You Don't Know About
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/335023

[dusmcj]

78. Talibs gave us the right to be there when they hosted AQ and their guests attacked us/nt

[winyanstaz]

105. there is no proof of AQ attacking us on 9-11....or that the taliban were involved...

Seven of people they claimed were on the planes are alive and well and walking around the middle east.
We dont KNOW who attacked us or who allowed it (yes someone HAD to allow it..unless you still believe a bunch of goat herders living in a cave on the other side of the world outsmarted and out maneuvered Norad, The Air-force, the FBI, the Cia, Airport security, the buildings security, international spies from other countries...not to mention the guy running the military for Obama now along with Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice and the rest of the neo-cons..and did maneuvers our own military and airline pilots say were beyond these goat herders capabilities...and that they not only destroyed two building they managed to crash into but also a third one that they never even bothered to crash into. Now THATS a way out there conspiracy theory if you ask me.
Even the FBI doesnt have Bin Ladin on their most wanted list...and if you ask them they will tell you. There is NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE THAT HE DID IT. You only have the word of the neocons that they (the cia built and run agency called al-quida) did it.

[dusmcj]

106. I use gutter flashing instead of foil, the Easter Bunny told me it works better /nt

[winyanstaz]

111. Well you need help...there is no easter bunny and tinfoil wont help...

Try thinking for a change...and stop swallowing the propaganda without doing any research...you might like it :)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

88. George W. Bush opposed an escalation in Afghanistan.

Just to get back to reality instead of "what ifs."

[redqueen]

92. STFU you O-bomb-a worshipper.

BTW have you enlisted yet?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

93. I did two tours of duty, have three medals of honor, and had me upper torso shot off.

Therefore, my opinion is worth more than anybody elses.

[winyanstaz]

103. dear redqueen....just put the troll on ignore...

It thrives on agitation and making stupid posts to piss people off. :)
I only have three people on ignore out of the thousands that post...and this troll is first on that list.
Iggy works great. ;)

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

95. How do you know what I would or would not be doing had Bush given that speech?

[winyanstaz]

102. K & R...thank you..great post..short and to the point,.

I have said it before..many times and I will post it again now.
IF IT WAS WRONG FOR BUSH TO DO IT..IT IS JUST AS WRONG FOR OBAMA TO DO IT.

[spanone]

110. i'd have had a little sympathy for junior if he was trying to end a clinton war...

and fuck that O-bomb-a shit