Can we go back to having an ANTIWAR MOVEMENT now?

[leftstreet]

:shrug:

[Blue_In_AK]

1. I'm in.

[MannyGoldstein]

2. Hey - The War is Cool!

Haven't you heard?

(Human behavior is fascinating.)

[patrice]

23. He DID just raise its patriotic quotient by a factor of 10 or so.

[Go2Peace]

43. Isn't that the "Bush" theory of political power?

Get into serious war fights and elevate everyone's sense of "patriotism" to move your approval ratings higher?

[patrice]

63. That isn't why he is doing this.

:sarcasm: Real peaceful of you. :sarcasm:

[RaleighNCDUer]

68. That's the Bush theory, because that's what his base wants.

Something about this suggests that this is not a move designed to raise Obama's approval ratings.

I mean, ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?

[RoccoR5955]

117. If war is cool, when are you enlisting? n/t

[peace frog]

137. I heard that

War under Obama is way-cooler than under Bush.

[liberalmuse]

3. Yeah, that worked real well.

I fucking marched and did everything except go Weather Underground all during Bush and a lot of good it did. :cry:

[leftstreet]

7. But, but THESE warmongers are the good guys! They'll listen!

Right?

Er...chess moves and stuff

[valerief]

17. Oh, yeah, strategy. He's smarter than us. Yadda yadda yadda.

Who gets dead? The peasants, not the warmongers.

[reggie the dog]

101. and they are not really smarter than us either

they know how to bullshit people well, accept bribes, trade infulence and they have BETTER CONNECTIONS, but honestly I am pretty damn smart. I am in the talented 10th I think. I have an MA so I have some of the "refinement" that our leaders have as well....but yes, us peasants do the bleeding,

[Dragonfli]

128. Pawns are cheap - you sacrifice the pawns (soldiers) to enrich the royal pieces in the back.

The object of chess is for the king to win, the loss of pawns mean absolutely nothing to a chess master, as long as the King wins, and the other big pieces reap the spoils.

He is becoming quite the chess master after all, and quite the authority figure for the follower personalities to worship.

If he were not a "democrat" he would perhaps be the best republican president ever. As a Democrat he has a long way to go to live up to FDR, but I doubt that is the direction he wants to go, much like Bill Clinton he hopes to achieve the goals of the "important" people, not the dirty working rabble.

[treestar]

102. That's the question

Did it really work as to Vietnam either? I'm sure whole books have been written on it. But maybe it ended when our corporate masters wanted it to end, not any earlier because of the protests.

[liberation]

110. Vietnam ended because we could not afford it any longer

and the North Vietnamese were not giving up, which can be equated to a military defeat from our part. A lot of people in that generation like to pat themselves in the back thinking that burning a couple of draft cards and all sorts of interpretative dances did all the difference.

I think this generation is starting to get that memo...

[ThomThom]

130. and China was stepping in to help the other side

it was not winnable so we said we won and left

[slipslidingaway]

4. knr nt

[billyoc]

5. The antiwar movement has been completely coopted by the DNC.

[leftstreet]

11. Does the RNC realize there's a slightly used antiwar movement for sale?

Hmmm....

[notesdev]

14. Slightly?

howabout totally used, used and abused

[leftstreet]

16. True enough

Sad, but true

[bvar22]

15. Not completely.

MoveOn finally broke with Rahm's "Message Discipline" Program and came out AGAINST the escalation today.

I'll still do my part.

[billyoc]

18. Did they really! Thanks for telling me that. Good for them.

I'll still do my part too. :hi:

[Richardo]

6. Think an anti-war movement will get any results before 2011?

The peak of the Vietnam anti war movement was what? 1968? 69? 70? 71? 72? You pick. But the last troops did not leave until April 1975, and that under what could only be called chaotic conditions. That's three years minimum if you count 1972 as the peak year for antiwar protests. And the movement was on for at least five years before that. Eight years to get results.

Obama has an 18-month timetable. Which is better?


But, go ahead, knock yourselves out. Please.

[Blue_In_AK]

I'll believe that 18 months when I see it. n/t

[AndrewP]

60. Well, if Obama says 18 months, then that must be true!!!

Not sure why some insist on taking that as gospel.

[RaleighNCDUer]

70. Maybe because that 18 months comes right before the election?

If the withdrawal DOESN'T happen as scheduled, his career is OVER. He knows that. THAT is why we can believe him. He has no intention of being a one-term wonder.

[SandWalker1984]

75. The Pentagon has absolutely no plans to leave Afghanistan or Iraq

That's why they are spending billions of our tax dollars to built permanent military bases in both countries.

So did we the people really elect a Democratic president or just another sock puppet who's strings are being pulled by the Pentagon and CIA??????

[reggie the dog]

105. CIA + heroin = no leaving Afghanistan

[midnight]

127. Maybe that is what the conversation should focus on. Why do we have permanent

military bases in both countries?

[bertman]

133. I agree with your comment about the Pentagon, SandWalker1984. But, they are smart

enough to agree to a phased withdrawal like President Obama has outlined, while making other arrangements on the side that negate the effect or slow down the withdrawal.

I hate this escalation and see it as just another catastrophe for the Afghanis. But from the safe and secure perspective of my crib in America, it's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out. My gut tells me that Obama is just another Corporatist who has been given permission to dangle tasty tidbits in front of the "people" so he can keep them hoping. The fact that he seems like a decent guy who would LIKE to do something good--even if his handlers prevent that--is why they allowed him to be elected. Up until yesterday I was still hoping, but now I am disillusioned. Not because he did what he said he was going to do when he campaigned (even though I oppose it), but because he used the same baseless bullshit arguments that Bush gave us AND he did it in that fucking hyper-martial setting at West Point.

[TornadoTN]

72. Sec. of State Clinton said this morning that the timetable wasn't fixed

That it was going to be determined as conditions on the ground at that time.

There is no way that we'll be out of Afghanistan by 2011. We are pumping so much money into it and giving the MIC and the corporations free range to exploit the countries resources. It won't be done by 2011, just getting started and we have to have a stable puppet regime in place to keep those approvals for land/resource rights flowing.

2011 is a fairy tale just to get people feeling a little better about supporting this charade.

[AndrewP]

85. It very much is a fairy tale

[bergie321]

89. That just means

That something will blow up in 17 months so we can stay at war and defeat the evil turrists...

[Sukie]

27. Wise words fall on deaf ears. But cudos for trying. n/t

[Ken Burch]

49. Nixon admitted that the power of the antiwar movement stopped him from NUKING Vietnam

That's a big thing right there.

Of course politicians won't admit that antiwar activists could influence them while they're still IN office. Nobody in power wants to acknowledge that power can be exercised from below.

But they do let themselves be swayed by it.

I think it's also likely that the anti-Central American intervention movement in the Eighties stopped Reagan from sending combat troops to El Salvador and Nicaragua, and that the strength of the antinuclear movement of the day probably influenced the decision to work with Gorbachev on a serious effort to reduce the number of missiles.

[liberation]

114. Millions of Vietnamese people died, and so did tens of thousands in Latin America

and the anti-war movement in this country seems to be all too quick to assign non-verifiable achievements to their list of merits. While completely unwilling to face the reality of their lack of actual, real, concrete results.

The anti-war movement in this country has achieved diddly squat, how can I say that? Easy, we are still spending more in weapons than the rest of the world combined. The biggest item in our budget is military expending. We can't seem as a country to even pass a half assed health care bill, and yet military spending faces little to no opposition in its ratification. We still have 2 wars raging, one of dubious legality to boot, none of the wars have been slowed down an iota due to the anti-war movement.

The anti-war movement in this country, at least during the past decades, has had little to do with actually ending wars and more to do with providing suburvanite kids a way to sleep at night pretending they did something.

[Ken Burch]

118. So we need a better movement with better tactics.

Fine.

I hope you aren't arguing that it'd be more progressive to BACK the war.
Nothing's going to happen as a result of it that won't be right-wing.

[hippywife]

126. Standing before your community

and voicing your opinion is doing something. Many here in bright red OK didn't agree with us but stand we did for months and months, listening to threats and harassment, some being arrested for civil disobedience. If you think it's nothing, I dare you to try it instead of sitting in comfy criticism of those of us who weren't afraid to put our faces out there with our sentiments.

[PVnRT]

52. "Protest is bad, mkay?"

Absolutely stunning the garbage that appears on this website now.

[reggie the dog]

104. Didn't Kennedy and Johnson have like

1 year plans too????

[Ken Burch]

111. "The Boys Will Be Home By Christmas".

n/t.

[reggie the dog]

112. yeah but he never said what year man....

[Ken Burch]

113. And he didn't say whether it was Western or Orthodox Christmas

n/t.

[rhett o rick]

8. I wish. But it doesnt seem to have any effect. No news coverage. nt

[glitch]

9. At this point we should just move on to General Strike.

Before that opportunity is outsourced.

[truedelphi]

48. LOL. Yep could be that that will be outsourced as well. n/t

[leftstreet]

125. +1

:thumbsup:

[lib2DaBone]

10. Me two...Me three

[notesdev]

12. signed

No blood for oil! (or heroin)

[valerief]

13. Like the worldwide massive ones before and after the Iraq invasion?

The ones no one saw?

Know how to highjack satellite teevee?

[nonationbuilding]

19. Sign me up!!!

[xiamiam]

20. i'm in...i am so disgusted with the rhetoric from tonight.s speech...wide awake now..nt

[subsuelo]

21. Increasing the troops *is* Anti-War

haven't you heard

[leftstreet]

24. War is Peace .... oh wait.... it'd be Occupation is Peace

yeah

[Ken Burch]

50. Escalation is Withdrawal

n/t.

[reggie the dog]

108. withdrawl?? in Afghanistan??? but the skag is so cheap

who would go throught withdrawl in Afghanistan, soooo much heroin MMMMM skag o licious......wait ?? er withdrawl of troops would lead to withdrawl of drug profits....

[reggie the dog]

107. you beat me to

war is peace.... but i will top you, left is right and up is down....

[SammyWinstonJack]

31. LOL!

:silly:

[dred654321]

22. I have never seen such pro-war

and pro escalation on a supposed Democratic website. And Im new here. If I wanted more pro war talk I would have joined the other site. And people who are anti-war are visciously attacked. Its sad.

[leftstreet]

29. Welcome to DU

Trust me, it never used to be this way

But apparently war is cool now

:cry:

[dred654321]

36. Thanks

Really, some of the comments from the pro-escalation crowd could be lifted right off the other site. Makes you wonder. And The Taliban/AQ are operating from other countries as well. So how does that figure with sending troops to Afghanistan. We could send 100,000 additional troops and it wouldnt make a difference. They would go into hiding and wait us out, much like they have down in Iraq. We need to address the root causes of why we are there in the first place, which is our meddling and killing and indiscriminate bombing, as well as doing nothing for the economic situations in those countries. We are not going to bomb our way to "victory". no matter how many times its shouted.

[moodforaday]

81. And here's an example

"Really, some of the comments from the pro-escalation crowd could be lifted right off the other site. Makes you wonder."

Just so you don't get accused of strawmanship or plain inventing stuff, here's a nice pro-war quote from another thread tonight:

No matter what anyone says this is Bush and Chaney's War....They allowed Al-Qaeda to escape from Torra Borra...America is not safe until Bin Laden is dead and Al-Qaede is put out of business. Do I want to see more military lives lost, certainly not, I have a Grandson who will be shipping out soon. The President needs our support and so do those who are serving our President and Country.

First a token Bush putdown, then a page straight from the Warmonger Handbook. The mind does boggle.

[peace frog]

95. Apparently war is cool

because it's a Democratic president who owns it now. Bush = bad, Obama = cool. Simple, see? :eyes:

[RoccoR5955]

120. If war is so cool, when are you enlisting? n/t

[peace frog]

121. Aside from the tired-out chestnut,

that was sarcasm, Rocco.

[RoccoR5955]

129. Gee, I didn't even see the sarcasm tag!

There are plenty of shills here. Maybe I should start a thread where those who are FOR the war, to check in, and see how many I can troll in!

[peace frog]

136. Thread away

and good luck with that.

[SammyWinstonJack]

32. It boggles the mind.

:hi:

[bluestateguy]

25. I marched against the Iraq War three times in 2003-04

Nobody gave a shit and it didn't make a damn bit of difference to anything.

[reggie the dog]

109. at least you can say you did what you could

we can sleep eaiser knowing we protested

[Nay]

116. I marched twice, and got to see it ignored by the news. Truly, no one

gives a shit. And you know what? I won't have a kid in these dumb wars, so maybe I don't give a shit, either. In 4 years I retire to Canada, and the hell with these morons. If this is what the American public wants, then I hope they get it -- in spades.

[Flaneur]

139. Because marches don't do shit. They're set pieces.

Real resistance to the war would require direct action.

[earth mom]

26. Still here! Is it pitchfork time yet? nt

[create.peace]

47. pots and pans now in order! fpr molly, nt

[Scruffy1]

57. way past time

Perhaps tar and feathers would be useful also. Every time I see a Corporate Whore senator or congressman called a moderate I want to get out all of the above on the corporate media,

[SammyWinstonJack]

28. K&R

:thumbsup:

[MNDemNY]

30. No. War is now a Democratic Principle.

Get in line and shut the fuck up.

[peace frog]

100. Reminds me of this line from an old anti-Iraq war ditty

Fall in line and follow orders, bomb Iraq.
For our might knows not our borders, bomb Iraq.
Disagree? We'll call it treason,
Let's make war not love this season,
Even if we have no reason, Bomb Iraq.


What rhymes with Afghanistan, hmmm???..

[JohnnyLib2]

33. Ah, some time for war was bought tonight.

Let another year go by and there might be more interest.....

[Better Believe It]

34. Yes. A statement by a united anti-war movement was released yesterday

[frazzled]

35. Why are you only against Afghanistan tonight?

Honestly, I marched against the war in Iraq, for all the good it did. I got honorably tear-gassed in the streets of New York protesting Vietnam.

But I have never been "anti-war." And I'm hopefully not simplistic enough to compare the situation in Afghanistan with the wholly unnecessary and, frankly, illegal invasion of Iraq.

I'm curious as to why people weren't in the streets protesting Afghanistan during the last 8 years. Or why they weren't protesting earlier this year, when even more troops (some 40,000, I think) were added in Afghanistan. Why was this night different from the last 10 months? Tonight, we heard about a focused "surge" (yes, let's call it that) whose aim is to allow us to start withdrawing in 18 months.

While I'm skeptical of this minor escalation and the effects it will have, I have to admit that I was wrong on the Petraeus surge in Iraq. I opposed it, but I think it helped to allow us to get the hell out of there. I am willing to see if it will get Afghanistan trained enough and semi-stable enough for us to be able to leave, without risking a failed Pakistan. I do believe there are national security threats (as well as threats to our allies) at stake.

I'm not happy, particularly, but I'm not hysterical either. And I'm certainly not hypocritical enough to pretend I need to march in the streets tomorrow over something I wasn't even paying attention to 3 months ago.

[fishnfla]

37. Fair enough questions.

and good point: "go back to" what, exactly?

[leftstreet]

39. We were told protesting under Bush was pointless

But surely it'll count now. Right?

[Richardo]

41. there are times when I wish we could rec posts.

like now. :patriot:

[Robb]

58. This should be it's own thread.

Well and reasonably put. :thumbsup:

[treestar]

106. +1

You have summed it up! Why the sudden passionate pacifism over this war, when it has been going on for 8 years?

And could have been over already had it not been for the neocon project in Iraq.

[Better Believe It]

38. United Antiwar Movement Tells Obama: No Escalation Of War!

Check out the united statement of anti-war leaders made yesterday at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x27539

[Echo In Light]

53. +1

[donheld]

40. I guess we have no choice

[Patchuli]

42. I didn't know we left! YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! nt

[intheflow]

44. Count me in!

:patriot:

[tavalon]

45. Yes

I'll be marching tomorrow and Saturday.

[slay]

46. Yes please

NO MORE WARS!!

[mmonk]

51. It hasn't gone away. It just disappeared from the progressive

blogosphere for awhile.

[MadHound]

54. I never stopped, twice a week.

Come on back in, the water's fine.

[mod mom]

55. My kids asked if our "NO WAR" sign would come down after Obama was elected.

I said not until the war is over. The sign continues to deteriorate (same sign since the war began).

[MissDeeds]

56. I'm in

:kick:

[United States First]

59. Our troops need to come home

     There are too many military families suffering with the
absence of their spouses and the many tours they endure, and
for what? Are they defending the United States? Are we
duplicating the Johnson years when we buried many of our
Military for a war we would not win? What have we been doing
in Afghanistan for the last 8 years? Are we putting ourselves
in the same position as the Soviet Union when they had to back
out of Afghanistan? 
     We have seen our congresspersons fall for he weapons of
mass destruction declaration from the Bush Administration.
Weren't most if not all of the terrorists involved in 911 from
Saudi? The United States needs to concentrate on its citizens
first and use the military to stop the illegal drugs coming
across our borders destroying our future generation. Our
country was formed by those who wanted our own autonomy and
believed the same should be awarded other countries.

[Soylent Brice]

61. You say you want a revolution...

You say you want a revolution
Well you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well you know
We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know you can count me out
Don't you know it's gonna be alright
Alright Alright

[paparush]

62. The time for orderly, peaceful demonstrations has come and gone.

I'm just sayin.

[Better Believe It]

74. The time for mass anti-war demonstrations is here. You're just sayin bull shit!

If you want to organize a tiny violent demonstration that the right-wing and mass media can use against us you're on your own!

And don't be shocked or surprised if government agents help you organize such actions and victimize the participants.

[paparush]

138. I saw massive, global, demonstrations prior to Shock and Awe.

I marched in a massive, peaceful demonstration in DC, January 2007.
I heard some fantastic speeches.
Listened to some impassioned Veterans Against the War.
I left inspired and worked to help Obama get elected.

Know what - There is no end in sight to taxpayer funded bloodshed and war profiteering.

Its Wall Street over Main Street.
Its War above peace.
Its profit above all.

We, the People, sent a clear message in the 2008 election.
We, the People, have been duped again.

We, the People, need to be heard.

For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

[Flaneur]

140. Yes. It will take direct action to stop this.

[swilton]

64. My Marching Boots are Ready

:kick:

[ChiciB1]

65. Count Me In For Something... Don't Know What Will Really Get Their Attention... BUT

just standing idly by and letting ourselves get screwed over and over is "OUR BAD!" We MUST do SOMETHING because this S--T just isn't going to stop!

This is OUR COUNTRY, and I'm sooooooooooo over War and blowing money that has been "lent" to us so that we can FIX other countries! The Tali-ban & Al Queada must be laughing as they see us fritter our lives and resources away! AND THEY AREN'T GOING AWAY NO MATTER WHAT WE DO!!

JMHO!!

[Bigmack]

66. I know the government won't listen...

But I want to be on record as being against this clusterfuck.

It is NONE of me!

[Javaman]

67. It would be nice but the majority of centrist dems are still basking

in the glow of the election over a year ago.

A meaningful protest only happens when the fuck ups surpass/overshadow the achievements.

We aren't there yet. Be prepared for a watered down version of the health care bill to keep the masses convinced that all is well in Whoville.

We are entering into a very murky time. I think Obama and his cabinet planned out for the first year then left things sort of hazy and dependant on the concept that their first year mission was fulfilled.

If he allows the patriot act to expire that would be a great start to the new year, but given the fact that he's also allowing the phone tapping to proceed and other various violations of our 4th amendment rights to stand, I'm not hopeful. I expect an 11th hour continuation of the act, followed by a statement of sorts from Obama as to how he agonized over it.

Yes, I'm getting very jaded.

[Chan790]

69. No. n/t

[salib]

71. Tough row to hoe

So, I am most definitely in.

All the easy stuff has already been done (over and over and over again). Only the most difficult (likely impossible in my lifetime) stuff is worth spending one's life striving for.

BTW, I am serious. It is what keeps me going.

[era veteran]

73. Iraq & Afghanistan two different wars, Got that?

Iraq totally illegal. Afghanistan, fucked up so bad by the 'War on the cheap Rumsfeld' that we missed our chance at Tora Bora. Either we tell Pakistan that since they don't have control over their own tribal regions, and attack the 9/11 murderers in their lair or we get the fuck out of Afghanistan. Not winnable unless we go to the source. The Afghani national sport is war. Either we do it right or we get the fuck out now. More troops in Afghanistan don't mean shit to Bin Laden (the reason we are there). Force Pakistan to quit providing sanctuary and root out these thugs. They have the Army. The tactics don't matter if the strategy is ignorant.

[hughee99]

76. You might need to wait until 2013 or even 2017.

Otherwise, you'll be helping the enemy (repukes). Sure, the war is important and all, but the most important thing is staying in power.

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

78. thanks for the example

The idea that "the most important thing is staying in power" is exactly the fricking problem.

[hughee99]

79. I completely agree

What's the point of having the power if it's only used to stay in power.

[Dragonfli]

131. That was sarcasm right?

You can't possibly really mean that the death of thousands is less important than an election.

No one can place such little importance on human lives as you imply, with the exception perhaps of a sociopathic personality. Sociopaths are rare so I imagine it far more likely that your post is sarcasm, if not I would have to feel really freaked out by reading your post.

[hughee99]

141. Yes, it was sarcasm.

It often seems like if you speak out against a Democrat on the war, you're accused of helping the repukes. The old "Would you rather have McCain" line is not a valid justification for anything this administration chooses to do. There are things that are wrong, regardless of the party pushing them. Everyone used to be a big fan of dissent as being patriotic when * was in office, but it's not as fashionable now. I find it hard to see how anyone can go from opposing the war to supporting it (or at least accepting it as a necessary evil), just because the party in power has changed, and not see it as hypocrisy.

[Individualist]

77. Here's a good way to start right now.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7135449

[Ysabela]

80. Sure... but Afghanistan has 95% of the worlds opium, so we're NEVER leaving there.

[Echo In Light]

83. And there are plenty of snarling, screaming voices here in FULL support of that

[spiritual_gunfighter]

82. It's time

Let's start on DU and work our way outward.

[h9socialist]

84. If it ever went away . . .

. . . if it really did go away it was due to naivete. Obama is a good guy -- but he's still an American President and an American politician. That makes war a constant possibility regardless of party.

[DesertDiamond]

86. Count me in! I'm ready to take to the streets.

[nilram]

87. Peace, dude. (and a K&R).

[Taverner]

88. Hey - I'm with you!

[f the letter]

90. It's still here.

Just not as much on DU as it was before somehow..

[pleah]

91. The Anitwar movement never left.

K&R Maybe now more people will join in the effort.

[stray cat]

92. Can it consist of more productive insight than war bad peace good?

[winyanstaz]

93. K & R....count on me...

Time to end this mess once and for all...and hold the war criminals responsible while we are at it.
Bring our troops home NOW!

[davidswanson]

94. Hell YES

http://afterdowningstreet.org

[Swamp Rat]

96. k&r

[WI_DEM]

97. The reason there is no real anti-war movement in this country is because no draft.

[reggie the dog]

98. sounds good to me

I have been against the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq since day 1 for each of them. Even risked arrest doing an illegal protest in Chicago the day the Iraq war broke out, carrying a "no blood for oil" communist party of america sign.....

[Hestia]

99. 'I will never attend an anti-war rally. If you have a peace rally, invite me.' Mother Theresa

"What you resist persists." – Carl Jung (1875-1961).

[fascisthunter]

103. yes

[G_j]

115. K&R!

[RoccoR5955]

119. I've been speaking out against this since BEFORE O-bomb-A took office!

I only voted for him because he was the lesser of two evils. If I'd had my druthers, I'd have voted for Kucinich!

[caseymoz]

122. Count me in. nt

[msatty99]

123. Nobel Peace Prize for Escalator of WAR

Count me in the Anti-war group. Also, Like the orwellian "escalate to withdraw" language.

[KoKo]

124. Well...it's looking like the "Hiatus" might pick us up some "Repug Votes," too...

Who knows. When the Left and "Tea Baggers" might get together...it would be very interesting, wouldn't it...:shrug:

[barbtries]

132. yes

please!

[femrap]

134. k and r

I'm with ya.

[RedCloud]

135. Isn't war peace?