How many here support completely fucking up a country and then leaving a mess behind?

[cynatnite]

Is that what the US does now?

[notesdev]

1. Apparently so

And you don't even need to leave home to find just such a country!

[AndyA]

4. Good point.

If we're going to nation build, we ought to get ours fixed first, don't you think? :shrug:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

2. So, we send in more troops to fuck it up some more to "fix" it.

:crazy:

[cynatnite]

3. That turned out real well when Russia did it, didn't it?

:sarcasm:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. And, Vietnam. It's a good thing we hung around and pumped more troops in to fix it.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

37. Not every war is Vietnam.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. No. The number of dead people differ. Other than that...not much.

[RaleighNCDUer]

30. You know, the only reason the russians didn't succeed was because

WE armed fanatics to fight them.

They were supporting the urban elites who believed in democracy, full sufferage, womens' education, and had women serving in the government. They were on the RIGHT side. Without our funneling billions to the mujahadeen, they would have never faced more than a disorganized few, no more serious than the Kurdish rebels fighting in Turkey.

It is disingenuous in the extreme to point to that as a premise for our failure.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

36. Different army, different war, different time.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

35. And you're sure that will be the result?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. Well, considering the troops aren't carrying guns as fashion statements. Yes.

[redqueen]

5. I'm just going to refer to another DUer's post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7132542&mesg_id=7135858

[Sirveri]

6. I think the issue is that most people don't think added troops will help.

If you could go out and just dump X number of troops on the problem and fix the country, I'd have no problem with that. But I'm not sure that it's the correct approach in this situation. Sometimes its best to just give up because nothing you can do will fix the problem.

[cynatnite]

10. I'm not convinced more troops will make a difference either...

and honestly, I do have a problem with our soldiers dying for an illegitimate government.

My problem is that we took out the Taliban and put one more to our liking in place. I don't like the idea of a repeat of what happened after the Russians left.

A theocratic nightmare emerged and the stage was set for Al Queda. I don't think another 9/11 will happen by a long shot, but I do believe what Obama says about Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Anyway, it sounds to me like Obama does have a time frame in mind. Maybe that's what he was looking for from the military. A time frame and an acceptable way out without risking the current government.

I do believe that pulling out now would be a mistake.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

7. To be fair, Afghanistan was pretty fucked up before we went there. n/t

[LakeSamish706]

8. Hey, thats what Bush/Cheney did to our country... So what the hell! n/t

[ixion]

9. our presence only makes matters worse... the cleanup of this 'mess' cannot begin until

the US gets the hell out.

[otohara]

11. Humanitarian USA Doesn't Exist Anymore

Not from the right and apparently not from the left.

I remember when people on this site were calling for intervention in Darfur.

[Chan790]

24. I still support intervention in Darfur...

of course, I also think we're making the right "bad decision" (out of a plethora of bad options and no good ones) in Afghanistan.

[otohara]

27. Me Too

I wish him and our troops well.

I hope that a somewhat peaceful Afghanistan will someday exist because the USA ousted as many of the Taliban and Al Queda as possible.

[gratuitous]

12. Would you call a plumber to fix your lights?

I submit that the fucking up of Afghanistan is a problem that will not be solved militarily. This country has a very binary way of thinking/debating/problem solving. Suppose a foreign power invaded the United States to exterminate Glenn Beck and his beckerhead followers. Would you or I stand for that, even though we may not like Mr. Beck very much?

[unpossibles]

17. true, although I may wait to react... :D nt

[gratuitous]

20. Maybe

But if that foreign power was indiscriminately bombing residential neighborhoods around you on "suspicions" or "reports" that Beck was in the area, the reaction time might get considerably shorter.

I've tried seeing this as a positive, but I have the same feeling I had back in 2002 and 2003 that despite all the analysis by the experts launching two invasions just wasn't a good idea. We're going to spend a lot of money and a lot of people are going to die, all in a pointless continuation of a mistake that should have died a-borning eight years ago.

[unpossibles]

47. fwiw, I was not being serious in my reply. nt

[treestar]

42. It would have to be something a lot worse than Glenn Beck

It's really just hot air.

Limpbaugh, maybe.

[Craftsman]

13. I do, past time to cut our losses.

[mullard12ax7]

14. You're talking about health insurance instead of health care right?

Yep, as Dean said, the bill is worthless without the public option. Thanks for bringing up that failure.

[EndersDame]

16. Would you ask the burglar to clean up the mess he made breaking into your house?

[whatchamacallit]

18. "We'll stand down when they stand up"

How long have we been hearing that bullshit. We screwed the pooch and the only way to "fix it" is to pull out.

[dysfunctional press]

19. define 'completely fucking up a country' as it applies to our presence in afghanistan...

it's not like there ever was any infrastructure that we'll have to rebuild, for one thing.

[Greyhound]

21. That's what the U.S. has done for over a century.

South American victim/nations have just started to recover from our "tender ministrations" of the 19th and 20th centuries in the last ten years or so and Africa hasn't even begun.

[Echo In Light]

22. Quote from George Carlin:

"Actually, when you think about it, this country has had a manhood problem for some time. You can tell the language we use; language always gives us away. What did we do wrong in Vietnam? We 'pulled out'! Not a very manly thing to do. No. When you're fucking people, you're supposed to stay with it and fuck them good; fuck them to death; hang in there and keep fucking them until they're all fucking dead.

But in Vietnam what happened was we left a few women and children alive, and we haven't felt good about ourselves since.

That's why in the Persian Gulf, George Bush had to say, 'This will not be another Vietnam.' He actually said, 'this time we're going all the way.'

Imagine. An American president using the sexual slang of a thirteen-year-old to describe his foreign policy."

[Greyhound]

46. My hero.

He spent over 40 years telling people the truth about America in a way that they listened to.

[Jokerman]

23. You really think it will be better after 18 more months of occupation?

2 years?
10 years?
20 years?

Where do we draw the line.

[Chan790]

25. When the job is done and not a second sooner?

I'm not in the habit of leaving things half-done.

[Javaman]

34. The go help out. :)

please define for me, in this case, "done"?

[Jokerman]

41. So your answer is never.

"When the job is done" has no meaning whatsoever.

It's just another way to say "endless war".

[Chan790]

45. If need be.

However, I do think it will never come to that. Just long enough that we can wipe Al Qaeda from the surface of the Earth.

[tekisui]

48. So you are against leaving Iraq, right?

We fucked that place up good, why aren't we fixing it before we leave?

[joeybee12]

26. So that's why you supported George Bush's surge in Iraq, right? n/t

[Chan790]

28. No, but...

I opposed the surge in Iraq because I thought that we needed to send those troops to Afghanistan instead. I support this surge because we're sending these troops to Afghanistan.

It's amazing how simple and direct that really can be. There is no logical conflict between those two positions.

[joeybee12]

29. The time has long since past when we could make a difference there...

...I agreed with Obama about this during the election...but, as I said, it's too late, sad, but true.

But you gotta remember, we made more of a mess in Iraq than we did in Afghanistan...not that we should have been there, but the rtionale is still the same...if you break it, you bought it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. We have no credibility in the region

It would be less expensive, both in lives and in dollars, to pay NGOs from Islamic countries to come in and do charitable and reconstruction work.

[Swamp Rat]

39. That's actually a really good idea.

"Pay NGOs from Islamic countries to come in and do charitable and reconstruction work." :thumbsup:

[TexasObserver]

32. If you've trashed someone's home, burning it down doesn't make it OK.

We historically justify the worst escalations with claims that we're doing it to stop the violence.

[Javaman]

33. so fucking it up some more and leaving an even bigger mess is better?

I will never understand those who cheer on war.

[noamnety]

43. First, stop fucking it up. (nt)

[cbdo2007]

44. Everyone on DU just thinks our troops go over there to kill as many people as possible....

so based on their logic, it doesn't help anything by sending more troops.

[Zoeisright]

49. I thought you were talking about what Bush/Cheney did to us.

They sure fucked up this country and left a mess behind.