So when did this place become "War Underground"?

[Taverner]

I am just amazed at how many folks here are applauding the troop increase

Tell me, folks, what's our goal in Afghanistan? Win? Define win - if you mean take over their country and put our leaders in, that's already done. We "won"

If it means getting Osama, well we had a chance and Rummy let him go. He's in Pakistan now. Or Saudi Arabia.

If it means stopping the Taliban, you do know they will retreat to Pakistan. And they will regroup there, and possibly take over. If that happens, we just paved a road for the Taliban to their very own nukes. Read your history books and especially pay attention to the "Khmer Rouge" and "Ho Chi Minh Trail" sections.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Since Ozzy Osbourne performed in Afghanistan with the USO.

[Echo In Light]

40. It didn't take him long to lapse into self-parody after Sabbath booted him in 79'

[Romulox]

76. Diary of a Madman is a great album though.

/nostalgia

[Echo In Light]

85. The first two solo records are solid...but once he got a haircut...

... and went from this -



to this -



pretty much sums it up

[reggie the dog]

his live gigs in the 90's were great, he went away from his cocaine

80's look once he quit cocaine and just kept to lsd and cannabis

[Romulox]

107. What're you talking about? Heart was an awesome band!

Oh. I guess I see your point. :rofl:

[Echo In Light]

114. Zing...ha, yes

[Union Yes]

139. After Randy Rhodes died tragically, Ozzy's sound was never the same. nt

[shadowknows69]

141. What did ignored say about Sabbath?

[Echo In Light]

156. Poster replied to the OP with -

"Since Ozzy Osbourne performed in Afghanistan with the USO."

[shadowknows69]

165. Good then he's on ignore because I really wouldn't know how to respond to that.

What you guys said basically, but Ozzy always rules in my mind.

[Echo In Light]

166. Yeah, gotta love the mumbling, nerve-wrecked guy

... but I always give him shit about his 80s glam/hair-do days

[niceypoo]

196. Ive never understood why people use ignore then go on and on and on about it

Drama queens

[ZombieHorde]

181. Why not just take people off of ignore if you want to know what they are saying? nt

[shadowknows69]

183. Because I usually don't give a shit, but this is Ozzy.

[ZombieHorde]

187. Fair enough. When I was in the fourth grade I used to write OZZY on my fingers

and I removed the heads of many of my toys with my teeth.

[leveymg]

202. TO THE THREAD HIJACKERS ABOVE:

You're OT. Take it to the lounge.

:thumbsdown:

[Bluebear]

2. It's not the progressive haven it used to be, for certain.

[polichick]

7. I haven't been here too long, but it's certainly not progressive these days. nt

[Bluebear]

11. Oh, back in the day. You really would have enjoyed it.

I'm glad you are here now though!

[polichick]

21. Thanks so much - I'm glad you're here too! nt

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[polichick]

25. So when do you think it changed, and why? nt

[Taverner]

30. I dunno - but it seems as if the DLCers have infliltrated DU

Blue Dogs and assorted DINOs

[shadowknows69]

184. Ya think? Luckily I'd bet they're still in the minority here.

Just a bit more annoying, so louder.

[dionysus]

26. fyi, 2001-2003, there was plenty of support for afghanistan action here.

people got pissed when they abandoned afghanistan for iraq, and people got so busy with the iraq thing afghanistan was basically forgotten.

[cliffordu]

46. That's right.

[JuniperLea]

77. Yep... there's a lot of memory loss around here...

And far too many who think they understand the situation fully.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

160. Quite frankly, I think there's a lot of common ground on domestic issues

Foreign policy seems to be where we get into trouble.

This idea that I can't be a progressive and favor the troop increase, for instance, annoys me to no end.

[cliffordu]

211. Yep - I hate this war, but understand the need to TRY to make good on

stabilizing the country....

The least worse option.

[Renew Deal]

193. Ahh yes, I fondly remember the "Golden Days" when the most popular presidential candidate was

A GENERAL

[WI_DEM]

3. I don't see that many people coming out for the increase in troops

on DU. It seems as anti-Obama as it always is.

[mullard12ax7]

15. WTF?

Are you hiding your head in the ground like an ostrich? There are polls on DU wherein 60% of the responders fully support the troop increase. I'm sure you are aware of that, you just tried to be misdirecting. I wonder why? LOL

[WI_DEM]

32. Sorry don't see it. I see one post after another criticizing Obama though.

[Taverner]

35. Some of us support the Presdient, but do not support the War

Nuance...

[elocs]

22. Are they arbitrarily anti-Obama or do they have some reasons for that stance?

:shrug:

[Individualist]

4. When the neolibs began trying to take over the site.

[TwilightGardener]

5. Shocking that people on Democratic Underground support a Democratic President's policies.

Note it's not called "Antiwar Underground".

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

161. Unfortunately that's an obvious fact that NEEDS stating. Thank you.

[Lorien]

168. And being pro-war isn't a Democratic platform

I support Democratic values and positions, not individuals who act against them.

[TwilightGardener]

182. Afghanistan was part of the Democratic platform. At no point during the election did the

Democratic party leadership support withdrawing from Afghanistan.

[cliffordu]

212. Please don't bring actual historical fact into this, please.

The dysfunction is just getting it's crazy on....

[ixion]

6. Yes, in the * era, the board was solidly against it

now there is a group of folks who think it's just ducky.

Personally, I find the change of heart unethical.

[Taverner]

10. Of course they think its ducky! It's not their kids fighting!

As long as someone else does it, they'll think its ducky and watch the explosions like fireworks

[reggie the dog]

109. I think the underground has gone mainstream

when the internet was younger it was really more underground, now groups that want to have studied it enough to try to take it over like they have TV, radio, newspapers etc. Not only are there real centrists, but I am sure there are paid hacks on the net making the net seem farther to the right. On the left you don"t have the money to pay for that shit. (not the Democrat left, the real left has no money). I have been against the war in Afghanistan since the day it started, I still am, and Obama is doing a good Johnson move. My father, a mechanic, always voted Republican up until Kerry, why??? Johnson sent him to Vietnam, Nixon started pulling troops out....my dad left a month early..........

[dionysus]

17. actually, not so much at the time. most of the outrage was that troops were taken from afghanistan

and sent to iraq. there were plenty of people for it, plenty of people against it.

[TwilightGardener]

18. This entire board was against Afghanistan from 2001 to 2009?

Really?

[ixion]

73. I don't recall this type of blowback when we railed against

* and his stupid little wars. No, sir, I don't recall that one bit.

There might have been someone opposed, but they weren't being very vocal about it.

[AndrewP]

19. It's amazing, and sad too

[tridim]

27. Nobody thinks "it's just ducky" even if they support the plan as a whole

Please stop making shit up.

[RaleighNCDUer]

72. Wrong. In the * era the board was not even solidly against the Iraq

abomination, and I think the majority here were pissed that we abandoned the fight in Afghanistan to go after CIA buddy Saddam.

I was beginning to think it was pointless myself, as we couldn't get at those who fled to Pakistan, but after the radicals assassinated Benazir Bhutto and started blowing up Pakistani market places the Pakistanis got serious about dealing with them. Now we again have a purpose there, to be the anvil to Pakistan's hammer - AQ and the Taliban will not be able to evade justice by just slipping across the border anymore.

If we just abandon Afghanistan, however, we will be handing both Afghanistan and Pakistan to the radicals. Now there's a lovely prospect.

[dionysus]

206. i see you joined in 2004. i have been here since 2001.

from 2001-2003, until iraq took everyones mind off of it, the board was at the very least evenly divided on afghanistan. in fact, the main outrage point was bush taking the troops from afghanistan and sending them to iraq.

please get your facts straight before you slander DUers.

[ixion]

219. I've been here nearly as long as you have

and I don't remember such vehement defenses.

And I've slandered no one.

And you have ZERO authority to tell me what to do.

[dionysus]

221. you can ignore reality to fit your viewpoint all you want , but you're still wrong.

plenty of DUers supported the afghanistan mission.

[notesdev]

8. Pretty simple to explain

Some people will adhere to the party line no matter what. It's easier than thinking for oneself, just to have someone else, someone they think is smarter, wiser, more noble, to tell them what to think.

And others just keep silent and go with the crowd, since that is also easier than getting yelled at and ganged up on.

[ixion]

13. yep... goes back to the innate herd mentality

which is unfortunate.

[SammyWinstonJack]

23. +1 nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

74. Yeah - because being yelled at on a fucking message board is so scary.

Silent majority meme? Really?

[cliffordu]

213. Of course there's the crowd with Oppositional Defiant Disorder, too...

Waitress: What do you do?

Johnnie: We're rebels

Waitress: What are you rebelling against??

Johnnie: Whattaya got???

[On the Road]

9. "Define Win"

if you mean take over their country and put our leaders in, that's already done. We "won"

A win would be considered taking over the country, not having them harbor Al Qaida, and also not keep US troops there in active combat.

I don't know if it's going to work. But that's the goal.

[Taverner]

12. We did. Do you mean, perhaps, win their hearts and minds?

If so, bombing the bejezus out of them will not accomplish that goal

[On the Road]

137. The Consensus is That

withdrawal now would result in the Taliban reasserting control.

We don't know if Obama's surge is going to work. The Soviet Union had about the same number of troops and that didn't work out so well for them. This time, of course, there is no one supplying the opposition with Stinger missiles or anti-tank weapons.

It's a dubious proposition, but it worth noting that many people here were convinced that Iraqi would be a failed state engaged in a ruinous civil war at this point. So it may be premature to make predictions.

[cliffordu]

214. That could be the most reasoned response I've read here all week.

Excellent.

[reggie the dog]

112. we won, hash and heroin are top quality and cheap

that was the real goal of this war, get a hand in on the dope trade, I can tell you here in Europe Afghan hash is cheap, and great quality...smoke em if you got em.

[On the Road]

138. Whatever Bush's Motives Were,

do you really think that is what Obama wants? Is that your opinion of him?

[reggie the dog]

147. I think that Obama

has his hand forced by the people that control the dope trade in Afghanistan. W I think was in on it, Obama is being "persuaded" I think, and not in the nice way. I honestly think Obama got some kind of "talking to" about the ways of the world and that his hands are tied to a large extent. So no, in my opinion his motivations are not at all the motivations of W.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

163. Nicely stated - also, The Band rule

[HughMoran]

14. I have yet to see a single post "applauding" the troop increase

Many have said that they understand and realize that Obama is in a difficult "no win" situation, but I can't say that I've seen an actual high-five type approval.

[dionysus]

20. i only saw one idiot who said anything like that. one.

but, you might as well slit your puppy's throat and march yourself down to the enlistment station right now mister!!11! :P

[HughMoran]

68. I have to enlist now for not agreeing?

I'm nearly 50 and can barely walk - think I can get a deferment?

[dionysus]

89. you can ride your pony!

:evilgrin:

[LeftyMom]

28. I saw somebody say their only objection was that it wan't more troops.

:eyes:

[dionysus]

90. that's the only one i saw too.

[arcadian]

47. There is plenty win

For defense contractors who back Obama.

[cali]

24. there is a small minority here who supports the escalation in Afghanistan

but don't let that stop you from flying into a high dudgeon about it. And no, the Taliban isn't going to take over in Pakistan. Only someone abjectly ignorant could say that. As ludicrous as thinking Osama is in Saudi Arabia.

[closeupready]

53. Osama was dead from 2002-2009. He's alive again?

Tell me how that works.

[Taverner]

56. He's actually an out of work actor from Miami - they just wheel him out when expedient

[closeupready]

59. Hope he's paid well.

:rofl: Kind of a stressful way to make a living.

[RaleighNCDUer]

79. You are aware that the Taliban DID virtually take over a couple provinces

in Pakistan, aren't you? That's they've initiated a campaign of terror against the Pakistani populace intended to weaken the central government, so they can enforce Sharia law there? And that, while they are a minority in the overall population, they can destabilize the country enough to prompt yet another coup, which would wind up threatening Kashmir, and bring nuclear armed India into the conflict - the goal of the Mumbai terrorists last year?

You are aware of that, aren't you?

[tekisui]

81. We drove them there.

Pakistan doesn't want the additional troops, because it means more extremists fleeing into their country.

[RaleighNCDUer]

95. On the contrary, Pakistan appreciates the renewed commitment

because they don't want the Taliban they are fighting (they have 20,000 troops operating in the Swat Valley, last I heard) to escape over the border.

Obama mentioned the safe havens in Pakistan a half-dozen times in his speech. The Pakistanis are applying pressure on those areas now, and where will the Taliban and AQ go when the pressure is too strong? If we are not a viable presence in Afghanistan, THAT is where they will go - right back where they came from.

You think Obama didn't talk this all out with them before making the commitment?

[cali]

102. The Taliban still controls some small areas of the NWFP

but it's very unlikely that they'll be able to extend that control or destabilize the country to the point of seizing control of the nukes.

[RaleighNCDUer]

111. They don't need to seize the nukes. Just to provoke a war between

Pakistan and India, and let nature take its course.

[reggie the dog]

115. Why is the Taliban up in the mountains by the border?

They were pushed out of the vallies they were in before. Just like bin Laden was up in the mountains before, by the border, because he could not go where the Taliban was.....

[Fire1]

171. Concur with your last two sentences. n/t

[otohara]

29. No It's Dramatic Underground

for those who forgot candidate Obama always said he would do this and voted for him anyway.

Stop the drama - Hate Osama, Not Obama

[Bluebear]

31. So, we should have stayed home election day? because he said this?

[otohara]

36. Exactly

any true pacifist would refuse to support what he said for 2 fricking years, by voting for him.

[Bluebear]

43. I voted for him DESPITE this, not because of this.

As to this lame DU meme that we weren't paying attention, whatever. I voe on Election Day.

[RaleighNCDUer]

And you got what you voted for.

Is that a difficult concept?

[frylock]

177. if rape is inevitable, just lie back and enjoy it

[reggie the dog]

117. Or we could vote for the anti war Libertarians or Greens

[Amonester]

179. And ended with president mcInsane/failin, and the rapture-ready crowd's

crackpotry

better get drunk to death than surviving to experience that total madness...

[reggie the dog]

220. this is why I prefered to vote Obama and now

bitch that he is doing a troop surge, except that some people are telling me "he said he would do this on the campaign trail, dont bitch about it now"...

[Taverner]

33. I support President Obama. I do NOT support this war, and will fight it tooth and nail

I hope our troops up and desert on a scale like the SVA did when Saigon fell in 75

[cali]

37. haha. you just called anyone who supports the escalation "war pigs"

and now you say you support Obama. too funny. not terribly smart, but funny.

[HughMoran]

71. lol

true and cute slogan.

Hate Osama, not Obama! :)

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughMoran]

121. 1) Osama started the wars by his actions 2) Obama has killed how many people?

3) are you serious?

[reggie the dog]

132. Osama started the war, really?

How about European and US imperialism started the war centuries ago. This is the real reason that someone like bin Laden can so easily find soldiers willing to kill themselves.

2 Obama has killed all the people who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan, by our weapons, and our private contrators weapons, since he has taken over nearly a year ago and done nothing to end the 2 wars. Osama killed how many??? a few thousand??? W. killed probably over a million if not simply hundreds of thousands, Obama inheritied the always running death o meter and has not shut it off, and imperialism (exactly what we did in Iraq, remember the great day on the news they said it was great anyway, when Iraq PRIVITIZED its oil...fucking imperialism) which has exploited, killed, maimed hundreds of millions, if not billions of humans and continues to do so. Remember bin Laden hit the twin towers (I think with the help of the neo cons) The WORLD TRADE CENTER towers, WORLD TRADE BEING IMPERIALISM, and hit the PENTAGAON, the muscle behing WORLD TRADE....this introspection into our own activities should have happened long ago, far earlier than 2001. The US (not most of its people) bt the coprorate USA model shits on billions of people everyday all around the world. It is normal that people get angry and lash out against this system. I am not saying I support what bin Laden did, just that I understand it and find such a motivation more honorable than W's motivation to get rid of constitutional rights, and take over heroin and oil interests. Just go on with "hate osama," that way you never have to think about how our country is being run and why people actually hate America. I am sure that more hate and wars is the trick to getting people to like the USA....true fair trade would not do any better I guess...

[HughMoran]

149. You're right - Obama, Osama - they're all the same

I mean really, in the grand scheme of the imperialist takeover of the world and ensuing wars that are all the fault of the imperialists, what's the difference between a couple of those A-rab types anyway. :p

[reggie the dog]

152. you missed my point entirely

the imperialists took over the world centuries ago. Not all the wars are their fault but yes most are. Ireland, Vietnam, Algeria, Kenya, Chiapas, Colombia, Mao's revolution in China. World wars I and II were the imperialsts fighting amongst themselves.... on edit do not paint me as one of those dumb ass republicans who would not vote for Obama because Hussaine is his middle name. I would actually vote for a person no matter what thier religion if I think their ideals are close to mine and between Obama and Osama one is a leder of the largest source of imperialist corporations in the world, the other is waging a war against "satan" as he sees the USA. As a pacifist I support neither war but which side has more humane ideals? Who is fucked economically by our way of life and who can be justified in anger? There is so much blood on my hands because of our western way of life that it makes me sick. Did you ever consider that people have a good, honest, moral reason to hate us?

[reggie the dog]

174. no witty comeback accusing me of racism yet???

are you actually thinking about what I said and finding it hard to argue against it???

[Zen Democrat]

34. When I heard the speech and before the pundits pontificated ...

I heard a withdrawal speech. He's giving the military one good shot at getting Osama bin Ladin, and then that's it. We're getting out, and he SAID that the reason he is publicly stating a start date for withdrawal is that he wants the Afghan government to understand that time is running out for them to prepare for providing their own security.

Then I heard the pundits and they didn't hear that at all. Was I smoking something?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

93. Afghan Government?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Duende azul]

203. These speeches are intended for you and the pundits to hear different things.

So even if you are antiwar you still have the small chance to hope for something.
Still can support your party.

If your hope doesn't come true they'll later tell you: "didn't you listen to the speech?"

[Generator]

38. Is it time for the old

"Bush could eat a child live on teevee and they'd still support him"

Why golly gee there's your answer. This is a site for supporting DEMOCRATS doncha know. No matter what they do.

[reggie the dog]

120. this is not a site to support democrats

this is a site which is "underground" which means we are critical of leaders no matter what party they are from.

[ecstatic]

39. ffs, stop it!

I haven't seen very many people who are happy about the war. Just people who are mature enough to understand the decision that was made last night and who have decided to give the President the benefit of doubt.

[Hepburn]

216. We have had EIGHT FUCKING YEARS OF THIS....

...when do we stop giving our government the benefit of the doubt?

Who is the last man to die for this bullshit?

Sheesh....

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

41. A resurgence of Born Again Hawks and Cold Warriors. Scoop Jackson Democrats.

[QC]

52. Not even that. They're just fans supporting their idol.

That's what's so disgusting about it all--it's not a matter of principle for most of these people, or sincere belief that this is the ay to solve the problem, but a matter of their having made a politician into some sort of fantasy boyfriend.

[RetroLounge]

128. Exactly!

"but a matter of their having made a politician into some sort of fantasy boyfriend"

:applause:

RL

[RaleighNCDUer]

209. Do you understand that the people approving the speech heard

their 'fantasy boyfriend' announce his own political suicide? He gave a withdrawal timetable that takes effect BEFORE the next election. If he doesn't pull it off, initiating the withdrawal and ending the war by said date his political career is OVER. He won't hold the left, he never had the right, and the independents will all feel betrayed by their flavor of the month, leaving Obama with maybe 60% of the Democratic party - and that is not enough to win re-election.

OTOH, if he does successfully disengage it will definitely secure re-election. Why do you think the repubs have been giving backhanded praise to this? It is not because he is continuing the war - he is ending it, and they know it - but they intend to poison the discourse. Anybody Rove likes MUST be bad, to Democrats, so the best way to piss off Democrats at the Pres is for Rove to praise him.

The amount of high-school level discussion here is just astounding.

[LuvNewcastle]

42. I think a lot of people are simply

trusting the President's judgment here. None of us has access to the information he has and some of our questions cannot be fully answered. I personally have too many reservations about this action to support it, but I think it's a tough call and I'm hoping for the best of possible outcomes.

[Echo In Light]

55. The question is: do you believe US presidents act on their own volition?

[LuvNewcastle]

63. Not totally.

I think they not only influenced but are guided by the wills of others. There are interests in this country that no single man can stand up to.

[closeupready]

62. Same argument neocons used when it was GWB making decision to invade Iraq.

Same shit, different guy.

[anarch]

44. I don't know, but we probably ought to invade N. Korea

at the very least, if we're on some kind of global humanitarian mission. The regime there is at least as oppressive to its own people and as dangerous to our national security as the Al Taliban or whatever is, if not more so.

And what about Iran? Aren't they part of the Axis of Evil too? That government seems horribly dishonest and oppressive, and so anti-Israel! Better get on that too, as the world's caretakers.

Maybe we could offer to subsidize the emigration of all the oppressed peoples of the world to the U.S., provided they'll swear allegiance to our ways, and then just launch the nukes at whoever's left in those nasty places who doesn't agree to submit. It would be more honest, in my opinion, than the way we've been doing things for so long now. Oh wait, but then we couldn't capitalize on the natural resources of the conquered lands, because they'd be all radioactive and whatnot...nevermind.

[closeupready]

58. Is it anti-semitic to suggest that Israel's national security is part of the calculus here?

I'm honestly curious.

[Taverner]

65. I don't think it would be anti-semitic, but I also don't think it plays in here

Iraq, maybe. Afghanistan is no threat to Israel though...

[anarch]

78. I was talking about Iran

I just think we're doing a crappy job as the world's policeman, which role we clearly must have embraced to be taking on a "mission" like that in Afghanistan. What about all the other oppressed people of the world? We should probably bomb them too.

[reggie the dog]

123. here in France the journalists say

that the main reason France, the USA etc. are fucking with Iran is because their friend Israel wants them to do it. Even the BBC had something to that effect on the radio last week.

[closeupready]

169. I believe that there is that element pushing for action against Iran.

But also pushing for anything that even approximates action against a relatively near nuclear-armed muslim state (Pakistan), i.e., escalation.

[Ignis]

164. +1

Get back to me when we invade Tibet to liberate it. ;)

[janx]

45. Right around the time you started calling people "war pigs,"

I think.

[Taverner]

48. It was before that - but yeah, I shouldn't have done that

I mean, I'm not as stupid as Cali, yet I do stupid things like she does...

I should learn

[reggie the dog]

124. war pigs is a great song

our troops should have never gone to Afghanistan or Iraq. bin laden was not helped by the taliban, he was up in the mountians and the taliban had a figh against 4 other organizations down in the valley...

[closeupready]

49. Osama is dead,or so I learned here when GWB was still prez. Now that Osama makes a good boogeyman,

and we have a Democratic president, I learn here that he's 'alive' again. :eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. I am far from applauding it, but those who are shocked

that it finally happened did not listen to Obama during the campaign. He SAID he was going to do this.

It is a mistake in my view, and it is all about the Central Asian Chess Game... but anybody acting surprised did not listen. Yes I knew he was going to do this, and I still voted for him. Why? It does not matter who is at 1600 Pennsylvania... this is about Empire. Until Empire falls apart, Republican, Democrat, Empire is too powerful.

[Taverner]

54. I'm not shocked, just mad

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. No use in even investing that much emotion into it

now emailing Congress yep, will continue to do so, but again until the Empire fails I don't expect any change in policy.

[whatchamacallit]

51. I suspect there has been a long covert infiltration, like with NPR and PBS n/t

[Turborama]

60. Seems like the peacenik majority here are a lot more aggresive and nasty...

...than the people trying to actually discuss the Afghanistan situation in terms other than "OUT NOW!!!"

Quite ironic, really.

[whatchamacallit]

64. I know, what's the rush?

It's not like it's been 9 fucking years or anything!:puke:

[Turborama]

67. What does that even mean?

[tridim]

80. I think it means Obama is somehow responsible for Bush's 8 year fuck up.

[whatchamacallit]

83. No, it means "Out now" isn't unreasonable after 9 years of killing people for no good reason

Capisce, idol worshiper?

[tridim]

84. I'm not an idol worshiper

That's a Limbaugh meme.

[whatchamacallit]

87. Really?

Well in regards to supporting continued war in Afghanistan, you and he are like peas in a pod.

[tridim]

92. I don't support continued war in Afghanistan

That's the Neocon plan, which the President has completely rejected.

I support an orderly and responsible exit.

[whatchamacallit]

101. Okay, I'll make you a deal

If in 18 months we actually leave Afghanistan better off than it is now, or if we even leave at all, I'll apologize and buy you a DU-Burger.

[Turborama]

189. That's what we did when the Russians pulled out

And look what happened 12 years later.

(BTW we've been there for 8 years this time, not 9)

Regarding "killing people for no good reason", I'll cross post these below comments seeing as they answer pretty much the same accusations I was originally responding to.

Since we kicked the Taliban out of power (something a vast majority of Afghans were and still are grateful for, I might add) http://www.sida.se/English/Countries-and-regions/Asia/Afghanistan/Programmes-and-Projects/More-children-in-school-in-Afghanistan/">the amount of kids going to school has increased from <1,000,000 to roughly 6,000,000 and 1,500,000 southern Afghans have been provided with much needed electricity and irrigation by http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5777799&mesg_id=5781231">repairing and protecting a long dormant massive dam.

And something the administration has just put up on it's website:

* A continuing significant increase in civilian experts will accompany a sizable infusion of additional civilian assistance. They will partner with Afghans over the long term to enhance the capacity of national and sub-national government institutions and to help rehabilitate Afghanistan’s key economic sectors so that Afghans can defeat the insurgents who promise only more violence.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/way-forward-afghanistan

I have been watching for these sorts of developments for the past 8 years and it looks like there's going to be an increase of attention regarding helping Afghanistan get back up on its feet, finally.

From February this year...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3744341&mesg_id=3744441">President Obama: "We're going to have to use development", and here's why we need troops for that

The main problem Obama has with the conflict in Afghanistan is that not enough Americans know about the positive things that have been going on there and he's not doing himself or our armed services any favors by failing to highlight them. All this "get out now, who cares about the consequences" is reminiscent of when we helped the Mujahideen kick out the Russians and look what happened 12 years later.

I just watched Charlie Wilson's War again and the moment at the end when he's trying to get $1million for schools just after the Russians had left and says “We always leave. And the ball keeps bouncing" was very pertinent to this whole idea of "pull out now". It is a lesson from history that we should heed.

Re the unnecessary "Idol worshipper" ad hominem. Thanks for proving the original point I was making.

[Bluebear]

70. "Peacenik" - - lol quelle 1968!

[Taverner]

75. I'm a "Peacenik" and I'm proud

Much better than being a War Pi...oh that's right, I can't call them that....

[reggie the dog]

133. me too, fuck unjust wars of imperialism

the TALIBAN WERE NOT ALLIES WITH BIN LADEN WHEN WE INVADED.....

[closeupready]

82. Ahem - it's en vogue to say "Peace Freaks", lol.

And if you are old enough to actually remember when Christian evangelists were called "Jesus Freaks", you know that it is not a nice reference.

[reggie the dog]

134. peace freak is cool, I am a freak

I smoke pot, drop acid, have long hair, play bass guitar, mountain bike ride, wear tie dye and hemp clothing. I am a freak and I am for peace and I dont give a fuck if people judge me for my look or my politics.

[closeupready]

140. Hey there, from one freak to another.

:hippie: :hi:

[reggie the dog]

145. I was born in 79

are we of the same generation or freaks from different times.......?????

[closeupready]

148. No, you're just a baby, lol

I was born in the 60's. And no, I will NOT be more specific than that. :D

[reggie the dog]

150. works for me man

we are both middle aged, me towards the young side, and you the less young side...the journey of life.....the high school kids I teach are now starting to be born in 1995 or 1996... i graduated in 1997... I am not just a baby.....

[closeupready]

153. Put it this way - I've grown up with Matt Dillon, Brooke Shields and Janet Jackson.

So many ways I see myself turning into an old man, it scares me sometimes. If you are 30, that's a hard birthday for a man, but hardly middle-aged.

Peace to you and yours. :hi:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

98. Spiro Agnew?

[reggie the dog]

126. Why not out now?

It is 2009, they went for a bullshit reason in 2001. How many Afghan civilians have we killed? How many of our friends are put at risk when they are sent there? How many of our soldiers died? How many of their soldiers died? For what? Heroin and hash???? I dont want my friend in the army sent back to that hell hole so that the cia can get their skag money.

[dmallind]

61. It's DEMOCRATIC underground - and Afghan troop surge was in the DEMOCRATIC party platform

If you want to find pacifist underground go for it.

[reggie the dog]

135. Democratic undergroud is a place to support

left wing ideals, which should be Democratic Party ideals. I do not do rah rah rah for the leader bullshit. I post here to defend IDEALS, principles, not people with ideas which go against my principles. Would you support a corrupt Democrat????

[dmallind]

204. Do you support the Democratic Party platform?

I do. All of it. There is nothing "corrupt" about not being ultra-left. The Democratic party is not an ultra-left or pacifist party.

[hfojvt]

66. I might ask when it became Bash Democrats Underground

but it has sorta always been that, and it really got bad in 2007.

[TexasObserver]

69. When a Democratic president followed GOP war plans.

Those who place loyalty to their president above loyalty to ideals back him on the war. Those who place loyalty to ideals above loyalty to the president oppose him on the war. I'm in the latter group. I oppose the war, and having a new president with a new plan doesn't change anything.

[tridim]

88. Except the President is not following the GOP/Bush/Cheney/Neocon war plan

He is trying to get us the hell out of there.

Just because you're ignoring the meat of the plan doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[TexasObserver]

105. Yes, he is. Same old drivel.

Bush could have given the same speech.

[tridim]

110. Whatever man. You're just lost.

Bush doesn't even know how to pronounce nuclear and he NEVER talked about exit plans.

[TexasObserver]

113. I'll be waiting for your apology in 18 months.

And the dead Americans and Afghanis won't be on me.

[reggie the dog]

136. If he wants to get out he could leave in about a weeks time.

The country is already destabalized. We could just leave. Just like when we just went there...

[tridim]

151. Do we leave all the war machinery behind after we leave next week?

In a destabilized country?

That is an irresponsible plan, exactly what the President is trying to avoid.

[reggie the dog]

158. blow up all our shit that we cant take and just leave

that is what happens in lots of wars you know.

[tridim]

167. As I just said, that is irresponsible as hell.

Not to mention impossible.

[NYC Liberal]

86. DU has NEVER been this vocal about Afghanistan, one way or the other.

In the last 10 months there have been as many OPs about Afghanistan as there were in 6 years under Bush from 2003-09.

Now that Obama has actually put in action an exit plan that will have us out of there, people here suddenly started wailing and moaning.

[Taverner]

91. But it isn't an exit plan...that's just it

[NYC Liberal]

94. But it is, if you listened to what Obama said. nt

[Taverner]

96. I did. He set a date. But he doesn't have an exit plan - - just a date

And he has this vague idea that we will "win" this war

I still don't know what he and others mean by "win"

[NYC Liberal]

104. Yes he does.

* The President has decided to deploy an additional 30,000 U.S. troops to Afghanistan. These troops will deploy on an accelerated timeline to reinforce the 68,000 Americans and 39,000 non-U.S. ISAF troops already there, so that we can target the insurgency, break its momentum, and better secure population centers.

* These forces will increase our capacity to train effective Afghan Security Forces, and to partner with them so that more Afghans get into the fight. And by pursuing these partnerships, we can transition to Afghan responsibility, and begin to reduce our combat troops in the summer of 2011.

* beginning in July 2011, we will transfer lead security responsibility to Afghans and start to transition our combat forces out of Afghanistan

* A continuing significant increase in civilian experts will accompany a sizable infusion of additional civilian assistance. They will partner with Afghans over the long term to enhance the capacity of national and sub-national government institutions and to help rehabilitate Afghanistan’s key economic sectors so that Afghans can defeat the insurgents who promise only more violence.

* Our top reconstruction priority is implementing a civilian-military agriculture redevelopment strategy to restore Afghanistan’s once vibrant agriculture sector. This will help sap the insurgency of fighters and of income from poppy cultivation.

* A key element of our political strategy will be supporting Afghan-led efforts to reintegrate Taliban who renounce al Qaeda, lay down their arms, and engage in the political process.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/way-forward-afghanistan

[whatchamacallit]

97. You're probably right

but this guy was supposed to be different, things were supposed to change. No one expected the Bush administration to do the right thing, but Obama... I think the reaction you're seeing is born of crushing disappointment.

[NYC Liberal]

99. Anyone who is disappointed didn't listen for 2 years when Obama was campaigning.

Or they did and voted for him anyway. Which is their problem not his.

[whatchamacallit]

108. Doesn't matter what he said

Politicians say lots of things when playing to the squishy, fearful, center. Every day is a new opportunity to reevaluate, recalibrate, and do the right thing. Escalating the war in Afghanistan, under the stated rationale, is not the right thing to do.

[NYC Liberal]

122. Words don't matter? I think they do.

The fact is when people here who are upset now voted for him, they were either ignorant of what he had been saying for 2 years about Afghanistan or they voted for him in spite of it.

I may be hesitant to believe candidates will stick to all their promises that they make on the campaign trail, but it's damn stupid to vote FOR someone BECAUSE you think they won't follow through on a particular promise.

[whatchamacallit]

127. I'm one of the "in spite of" voters

Obama has made a lot of campaign promises, too bad this is the one that will actually happen.

[NYC Liberal]

131. Personally I'm glad we finally have an exit strategy

and a plan for getting out.

[Individualist]

119. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7138403

[NYC Liberal]

130. That doesn't saying anything to what I wrote in the post

which you responded to. I said you were either ignorant of Obama's position or you knew it and voted for him anyway.

Either way, that is your problem, not Obama's.

[Individualist]

143. Strawman

[NYC Liberal]

154. You would've had to have made an actual argument

for my post to be a strawman.

[JoeyT]

200. I think he meant "false dichotomy"

"I said you were either ignorant of Obama's position or you knew it and voted for him anyway."
There's also the option that he voted green. Or the option that he didn't vote at all.

[NYC Liberal]

201. Well that might be true, but quite frankly

I don't think either of those is that great.

[reggie the dog]

142. who was I supposed to vote for?

Grandpa Simpson and Sarah???? had they won we would be in Iran already. I can still this Obama was just the least shitty of 2 choices.

[NYC Liberal]

155. Never said you were supposed to vote for anyone.

I was making a simple statement of fact: Either you didn't know his position for 2 years when he was campaigning, or you did and voted for him anyway.

Either way, as I said, that's your problem, not Obama's, since Obama very clearly said what he was going to do. You made a decision based on the plans he laid out.

[reggie the dog]

157. so I should have just stayed home and let

Grandpa simpson win???? and now that I voted to stop a war in Iran I should just shut up about a troop surge in Afghanistan??

[NYC Liberal]

159. Again, I never said what you should or should not have done.

I said Obama made his plans clear. You heard what he had to say, you heard what he was going to do and you voted for him knowing he was going to do it.

And I am not telling you to shut up about anything.

[reggie the dog]

162. good, then I still say that this is a shit idea

it was shitty on the campain trail, and I am disappointed that of all his campaing promises he kept this one....

[frylock]

178. that was two years ago..

a lot of us held our noses and pulled the lever for this guy thinking he would open his damn eyes to the fools errand that is this war in afghanistan. apparently people are cools with stalwart and resolute as long as it's not bush.

[NYC Liberal]

185. First of all, Bush was by no means "stalwart and resolute" at all.

He was stubborn to a fault. He refused to have an exit strategy - he didn't just not have one, he openly refused to implement one. Now Obama is doing what Bush never did and getting us out of not just Afghanistan, but Iraq as well.

So much for the "endless war" meme.

[librechik]

208. I'll pay you $20 more than your corporate bosses are to QUIT posting on this forum

[frylock]

210. my corporate bosses?

that's fucking rich considering that i'm a socialist. why don't you take that 20 and donate it to a worthy cause instead.

[librechik]

217. sorry--I read your post and mistook you for someone else

[frylock]

218. phew!

thanks for the clarification. peace!

[Amonester]

180. Believe me, it will be his problem when his numbers will tank to bu$h's territory.

And we just HOPE he'll keep his promise of 'listening' to we the people (something bu$h couldn't care less about).

[NYC Liberal]

186. He has been listening to people, all along.

People have desperately wanted an exit strategy for both Afghanistan and Iraq for quite some time now. Bush refused to implement one. Now Obama is, and we're ending both wars, and I for one am glad for it.

[sad sally]

190. Oops, you must not have heard Mr. Gibbs at the Daily Press Briefing today

He said the administration doesn't pay any attention to poll numbers; they don't really care if the majority of Americans don't support the invasion escalation - kinda like they don't really care if the majority of us support a public health option. too bad.

[treestar]

100. that's the extent of it

You said it. Suddenly everyone is a pacifist, and on a subject Obama had covered no differently during the campaign.

[NYC Liberal]

106. And It's not just that people disagree.

It's the tone too. It seems like nobody can have an honest disagreement around here. Disagree with someone and you get personally attacked, called names, etc.

[treestar]

125. No kidding. Rational discourse and measured tones would go a long way

This warmongering Bush-lite drama queen stuff is a bit over the top.

[Ignis]

146. "Suddently everyone is a pacifist"

Way to misrepresent the entirety of DU's history! :thumbsup:

[EFerrari]

198. Maybe you need to be introduced to the time-space continuum.

DU since I've been here has had a strong anti-war contingent. And a lot of people like myself disagreed with Obama's Afghan sound bite and hoped he'd do better in office. Democrats tend to be optimists.

[closeupready]

170. It's a fallacy to imply that the vocal opposition here 'supports' Afghanistan/the Taliban.

Opposition is based upon opposition to killing people without just cause and bankrupting our own nation in the process.

[NYC Liberal]

173. Did you mean to reply to my post?

I never said anything about anyone supporting the Taliban.

[reggie the dog]

103. I was against W ever since he

signed the Patriot Act into law and then invaded Afghanistan so as to increase and get a hand in on the heroin trade. The Taliban were too good at the drug war, too fanatical, they actually nearly stopped heroin production. They even got US money for this. They were our allies. Supposedly we invaded their country because they did not "turn over" bin laden, (here in the papers this week there was an article saying W. and the neocons stopped our troops from catching him too). At any rate the Taliban were at war with many other groups and good old Al Kidea....(if it really even exists) was up in the mountains somewhere not fucking with the Taliban, so the Taliban worried about the people actually attacing them and the USA called this not turning over Bin Laden, someone whose location the taliban did not even know. This war is about heroin. Afghanistan was down to near Zero heroin, which let Burma grow in importance in the heroin trade (people gotta have skag after all). The USA and its allies went in and now Afghanistan alone is producing enough heroin for the worlds demand. (Burma is still producing so prices are down.) Local's in the know say skag is cheaper and better than ever before. Hell I have personally seen the quality of hash go throught the roof. No more cut shit from Morocco as Afghan black hash is everywhere and here in the countryside goes for 6 to 8 euros the gram when you buy 10 grams. Before shitty Moroccan was 4 or 5 euros the gram. Now shit hash is 2 or 3 a gram, good Moroccan blonde is 4 or 5 and you get top quality knock you on your ass Afghan black for the 6 to 8 a gram. This is the only good thing to come out of the war but it is not worth it. I like the good Afghan hash but I do not like that we killed a shitload of people so that drug production would increase. Why not just get the UN to legalize. That would have been too easy, but I think it is on purpose. Someone needs black money, cash, hidden money, to fund covert ops....oh well off to smoke some of Afganistans finest.

[Techn0Girl]

116. The best way to protect our security ....is to immediately begin to remove our combat troops

New York Times... Obama puts forth a plan to remove ALL troops by end of 2008 .

“The best way to protect our security and to pressure Iraq’s leaders to resolve their civil war is to immediately begin to remove our combat troops,” Mr. Obama said. “Not in six months or one year — now.”


What a difference a year or so makes...

[Javaman]

129. it works like this:

bush* + escalation = bad

Obama + escalation = good

Big big difference!!!

:banghead:

[reggie the dog]

144. the only difference I see

is that I think McCain would have invaded Iran already......but still sending more troops to Afghanistan is a bad idea. We have no moral right to be there in the first place.

[fascisthunter]

172. when... after last night, I guess

[QC]

175. When it became the headquarters of a personality cult. n/t

[Taverner]

176. I don't buy any of this "Obama Personality Cult" nonsense

Many people are relieved that he's not Bush

Many people admire his intelligence

But I don't think this is a "personality cult" in the same vein as Stalin, Hitler (DON'T YOU SAY GODWIN), Mao or Pol Pot.

But he did fuck up big time on this Afghanistan thing...

[madville]

188. Not a good idea to anounce when you plan to retreat

Does anybody else think it's a bad idea to announce that you plan to retreat at a certain point before you even start your offensive action?

[winyanstaz]

191. Its insanity at it's worst....

Applauding war is always insane.

[earth mom]

192. War is Peace doncha you know? Obama said so.

And he's got the "peace prize" to show it. :puke:

[ShamelessHussy]

194. i think they are a noisy MINORITY - maybe it's time for a poll to prove that theory?

I would if I could :hi:

[AVID]

195. I respectfully disagree that "many folks are applauding"

From my perspective, that claim is about as disingenuous as those who claim that people upset about it "don't know all the facts", "never liked Obama anyway", or "should have known about it when they voted for him.

I hate the decision to send troops and hate that there are American troops in Afghanistan.

I have a very clear picture of the past in that region. That's easy! 30 minutes in Borders with the right books and a sensible person will come to the conclusion that Afghanistan is not a country in which to fight a war. I have no idea what the consequences of a complete withdrawal would be. That's unknown.

I'm pretty sure my support will have met it's end in 12 months if there is not concrete data to show we are having success in preparing for a complete exit.

[amborin]

197. Insanity to rachet up our presence in Afghanistan, and China is gleeful!

[xultar]

199. Buhwawawawawa!

[Hannah Bell]

205. you must have missed the iran thing. they were chomping at the bit.

[FarLeftFist]

207. I support our President and our Troops

Remember when that was the most Patriotic thing someone could say.

[okieinpain]

215. so we should pull out and everything will be chill. n/t.