Are escalation and chaos the only two options?

[Cerridwen]

We can escalate a war or we can leave a country in chaos (because, yeah, escalation isn't chaos?!)? That's it? No other options?

What if we spent as much money to build hospitals, schools, and infrastructure? We could even keep some of the troops there as bodyguards for the builders. We could send doctors and teachers and engineers and construction workers; maybe some from the US are looking for jobs and wouldn't mind going?

I mean, I know it's not as sexy for the war porn crowd who gets a hard-on screaming "kill them to save them," (see history of the Inquisition™) or the "only good 'haji' is a dead 'haji'," or "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" or "nuke 'em 'til they glow." But, hey, it might create less chaos in the countries we've invaded and "those" people might be less inclined to fight us over here so they don't have to fight us over there™.

Maybe we could decide that sending troops in to kill the bad guys; who for the sake of most supporters of that idea seem to know the bad buys are clearly marked (black hats? tatoos? hump-backed? red hair?) so there won't be any "collateral damage;" isn't really helping to "promote the cause of 'Democracy'" so much as it's making entire countries of people despise us. Ya think?

Maybe we could even ask the people of those countries; NOT their 'leaders'; but the people, what it is they'd like us to do. We could even honor their wishes. Or, if we insist that we know better what's good for them, perhaps we could, ya know, do something better for them like repair their hospitals, schools, homes, and other shit we've blown up while there? Hell, it can't cost any more than a few of those drone planes or bombs we keep using, could it?

Maybe we could start to bring home some of our troops who are on their 5th or even their 4th rotation into the not-so-clearly-marked war zone? Whatcha think?

Yeah, I know, it might take too long. I mean really, after only 8 years of building instead of bombing, what might we have had to show for it?

*sigh* I know it's not popular to suggest something that might take decades or even generations when it's so much easier to just "bomb the shit out of 'em and take our resources," but geez, couldn't we just once give it a try?

Which way does more damage to al quaeda/taliban/war-lord status than a healthy, educated, and safe population? Kill 'em or help them?

Oh, and since it can't all be about them, we might even enjoy a perk or two of saving some of our troops' lives and that of their families. Maybe we could save a few dollars. Maybe we could learn about building a healthy country by starting with theirs.

It's a thought.

[FiveGoodMen]

1. Good post. Good thinking.

[Cerridwen]

8. Thank you.

[LakeSamish706]

2. I to think your ideas are great... Maybe you should think about sending this to the President. n/t

[Cerridwen]

7. Maybe I could send him the link and one day his staff will allow him

to know it exists.

I am that cynical.

[rug]

3. Security coated clusterfuck is another

[Cerridwen]

6. Nice turn of phrase. I'd not yet seen that.

I feel safer. /sarcasm

[TomClash]

4. Thoughts like these are no longer welcome on DU

The prevailing sentiment seems to be "the War really sucks, but the Taliban are bad and no one will trust us if we don't leave responsibly and we made this mess so we have to fix it and he set a withdrawal timetable."

[Cerridwen]

9. I've noticed.

Did you notice how much your quoted phrase sounds familiar? I swear we've been read a variation of that same phrase over the past 8 years.

Maybe my memory's just shot. I have a hard time remembering if we're at war with Oceania or Eurasia.

[TomClash]

15. LOL

It's December so we are at war with Eastasia.

[Cerridwen]

16. Thanks for keeping track.

:evilgrin:

[Greyhound]

5. What a radical (Un-American) notion.

Just in case we've forgotten (and apparently most of us have) OBL became the "hero of the oppressed" by being the guy that stayed behind and built a couple of schools and a hospital after the U.S. & Soviet Union were done.

Had we "invaded" Afghanistan with an army of giant construction machines, engineers, educators and health-care professionals (well guarded, of course), we would have received the greeting that Idiot Frat Boy & Co.® promised. We would have unfettered access to the resources we crave, a true friend in the region, and it would go much further than the empty rhetoric and relief of a leader than can speak in complete sentences using real words.

[Cerridwen]

10. And not very welcome at DU, either.

Though I don't know why as the unreccers don't reply. Silly that. Seems all they'd have to do is tell me how naive and uninformed I am. Or they could call me an "Obama basher," lacking all evidence, but hey, ad hominem attacks work to derail.

[Life Long Dem]

11. So they can knock it down?

Sounds like a real expensive thought.

[Cerridwen]

13. Who "they"?

The taliban? al quaeda? war lords? The people who would benefit?

Who becomes the "bad guy" if we build and "they" destroy? How does that change the equation?

[Ignis]

12. K&R

We're being inundated with claims that the "peaceniks" :eyes: have no alternate plan to offer.

This post puts and end to that lie.

[Cerridwen]

14. Thank you.

And thanks for recognizing what I typed.

Wouldn't it be great if others added their ideas? I bet I'm not the only peacenik to think on this.

[Ignis]

22. Oh, many peace-friendly groups have issued alternate plans.

Here's one you might enjoy:
http://www.afsc.org/Newsroom/ht/display/ContentDetails/i/84675

Personally, I'd be willing to support a surge if we also radically restructured the mission objectives in Afghanistan.

But if you can't fix a problem with one hammer, using 5 hammers for the job doesn't count as brilliant strategy in my book.

[Cerridwen]

24. But of course they do and have.

But, this is DU where we don't see that which goes against our blindered ideals.


"But if you can't fix a problem with one hammer, using 5 hammers for the job doesn't count as brilliant strategy in my book."

I see you've never played multi-dimensional chess. *snort/chuckle*

[ashling]

17. And who could we get to do all of this infrastructuring?

Halliburton maybe?

[Cerridwen]

19. Or any number of companies in the US who specialize in that type

of engineering and construction?

Maybe we could even use some, oh, I dunno, input from the Army Corps of Engineers thereby keeping our military employed and paid and their families supported.

I can think of a lot of organizations and companies who could work in that area. Then there are the people who already live there. Ya know, I bet even "they" have skills, education, and a helluva lot more motivation than "we" do.

[ashling]

21. I agree with you 100%.

I'm sorry, I accidentally hit send while I was trying to multitask. I meant to make a sarcastic comment directed at the state department, Pentagon, and all of those other fools who keep hiring these idiots who drink vodka out of - well, you know.

But, again, I think you are right. Keep army engineers as advisors for construction projects which hire their people, etc.

:hi:

[Cerridwen]

25. Understood. Thanks for letting me know.

:hi:

[Chulanowa]

18. Good ideas, but as I've been telling others...

You can't have aid and humanitarian workers out there until the place is secured.

And can the straw man that there's your side and the evil robber imperialist side, man.

[Cerridwen]

20. I swear I've read where our military is capable of building and maintaining

security at the same time. Some of them are even involved in doing it now.

"...the straw man that there's your side and the evil robber imperialist side..." If I translated that sentence correctly, you seem to think I "created" an "evil robber imperialist"? That correct? And here all I thought I said was I'm tired of a militaristic and chauvinistic approach to telling other countries what's "good" for them.

Since there's a lot of criticism of us "peacenik" types not offering different answers to "escalate" or "leave in chaos," I thought of another way.

As to that whole "straw man" you saw in my OP, I guess Eisenhower could have been lying; it's not like he knew anything about the military or government.

[Greyhound]

23. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? We've build entire cities under constant fire from

actual militaries.

[OneGrassRoot]

26. Thank you for this. :) K&R n/t

[Cerridwen]

31. You're welcome and thank you for the K&R. :D n/t

[Solly Mack]

27. k/r

[Cerridwen]

30. Hey, Solly.

Just wanted to give you a quick :hug: and a thanks for the K & R.

Since I think you'll understand, I'm also going to shill my own post from http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=251111&mesg_id=252543">way back when. It seems to fit the theme and I seem to remember seeing you there.

:hi:

[Solly Mack]

32. I cried while reading that

Thank you. I mean that. I still feel that way.

[Cerridwen]

33. I hope they were the "good" kind of tears.

I think that's why I save some of the posts in my journal. Reminders to myself of why I still read and post here and the people who have influenced me and whom I care about, "strangers" though they be.

[Solly Mack]

34. They were the good kind

:hug:

[Cerridwen]

35. And another

:hug:

Thereby giving me an excuse to kick my thread. I'm sooooo transparent. LOL

[Johonny]

28. There is any infrastructure for us blow up

We've tried in the population centers to do this very thing. Most of the people don't live in these places. Part of Obama's plan is to go directly to the rural population and try to get them involved. It's not clear they will accept. Frankly I don't think they'd be all that excited to see Americans come in to build their country, when their country's job problems are way worst than ours. Besides teachers and schools we would certainly look bad taking what little jobs there is away from them, let alone streaming large amount of Americans into the country. That looks a little like invading. That's the hard problem Obama is juggling. Place too much inside the country and look like an invader ( and this country has strong opinions on outsiders). Place to few and you can't maintain security and infrastructure. In the end every formula relies on the Afghani people. They are either going to be our partner or not. It's been a long time now and so few have jumped on board.

[Cerridwen]

29. "... I don't think they'd be all that excited to see Americans come in..."

Perhaps you missed where I said in the OP that

Maybe we could even ask the people of those countries; NOT their 'leaders'; but the people, what it is they'd like us to do. We could even honor their wishes.

"...we would certainly look bad taking what little jobs there is away from them..."

That would probably be why later in the thread I said

Then there are the people who already live there. Ya know, I bet even "they" have skills, education, and a helluva lot more motivation than "we" do.

"They are either going to be our partner or not. It's been a long time now and so few have jumped on board."

Uh, yeah, and that's going to change now because why, again?