Sexting-related bullying cited in Hillsborough teen's suicide

[ccharles000]

RUSKIN — At the end of the school year at Beth Shields Middle School, the taunting became so bad that Hope Witsell's friends surrounded her between classes. They escorted her down hallways like human shields, fending off insults such as "whore" and "slut." A few days before, Hope had forwarded a nude photo of herself to a boy she liked — a practice widely known as "sexting." The image found its way to other students, who forwarded it to their friends.

Soon the nude photo was circulating through cell phones at Shields Middle and Lennard High School, according to multiple students at both schools. "Tons of people talk about me behind my back and I hate it because they call me a whore!" Hope wrote in her journal. "And I can't be a whore i'm too inexperienced. So secretly TONS of people hate me … " School authorities learned of the nude photo around the end of the school year and suspended Hope for the first week of eighth grade, which started in August. About two weeks after she returned to school, a counselor observed cuts on Hope's legs and had her sign a "no-harm" contract, in which Hope agreed to tell an adult if she felt inclined to hurt herself, her family says. The next day, Hope hanged herself in her bedroom. She was 13.

Her death is the second in the nation in which a connection between sexting and teen suicide can clearly be drawn.

"This is very important, because it shows that sexting-related suicides are tracking the same way cyberbullying-related suicides are," said Parry Aftab, a nationally known "cyberlawyer" who has appeared on Good Morning America and the Today show.

A 2009 Harris online poll shows that one in five teens admits to having sent naked pictures of themselves or others over a cell phone. But even that number may be low.

Hope grew up in Sundance, an isolated rural suburb 6 miles off U.S. 41 in south Hillsborough County. Her parents, Donna and Charlie Witsell, met in the post office where they both work. They married in 1995. Hope was their only child together. They took her to church every Sunday.

Hope wasn't a troubled girl. She was an "A" and "B" student in all subjects but math. She had many friends, whom she liked to give bear hugs. She often went fishing with her father in her big, white-framed sunglasses. On mornings when she was running late to school, Hope carried her cereal and milk in a coffee cup and ate on the bus.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/sexting-related-bullying-cited-in-hillsborough-teens-suicide/1054895

[Deja Q]

1. Until people lay down the law, it won't get better.

Kids can be cruel.

Now, people can say "boys will be boys", or we can say "in a civilized society, those antics will get you nowhere. 3 months' detention and if you do it again the punishment will be worse." (with the principal letting the parents know. If the parents are unable or unwilling, off to juvie they go.)

To save a lot of future pain, it's best to abscond the "boys will be boys" nonsense sooner rather than later. How many more people, especially intelligent ones, need to have their lives tampered with or, worse, ruined because of a bunch of vermin?

[AngryAmish]

2. Do you think it was the boys calling her whore?

[SidDithers]

4. +1...

In my experience as a parent, girls can be much more cruel than boys.


Sid

[seabeyond]

6. the boys are the ones that were spreading the picture. tell me how respectful those boys

were being.

[AngryAmish]

8. Did you even bother to read the article?

Dead girl A sends pic to boy B. Girl C, a rival smehow, found it on his phone and spread it around.


on edit: I should read better myself. Boys certainly played a big part.

[seabeyond]

20. long article.... and confusing. seems there was another incident at ffa.

this is what i am seeing with the male youth in community (nephews and friends) that bother me. but looking like girl possibly sent out pictures thougt accounts vary and not seeming real firm on that event

"The boys were in their late teens and were not there for the FFA convention. They insisted she send a nude photo to them.

One of the boys was especially aggressive and called the room repeatedly on the conference's last night, asking Hope for a photo of her breasts.

"They kept calling and they kept bugging her," said Rebecca, 14, who said she was in the room but asleep. "I think she was just scared. One of our roommates was scared as well and said, 'Oh, my God, just do it.' They were scared and wanted to get it over."

The boy calling didn't have a cell phone. So Hope used Rebecca's phone to take a picture of her breasts, then slipped it outside her door. "

[seabeyond]

5. do you think it was the boys sending the pictures to all their friends?

and do you think those boys once they got the naked picture were being respectful, nice and sweet to the girl?

i get you point. but it is absurd to suggest the boys did not have a HUGE part in this

[AngryAmish]

9. on edit, it does seem some boys had a big part

I need to read better myself

[seabeyond]

13. yes.

About a week after Hope's suspension ended, she and Rebecca found three boys seated at the cafeteria table the girls had always claimed as their own.

The ringleader, Rebecca said, hectored Hope about the photo that had made its way through the school in June. Another boy joined in.

Hope left the table in tears.

[Juche]

66. Nevermind

Misread your point. You are right, both genders are responsible.

The part about her friends forming a human shield around her almost made me cry though.

[TuxedoKat]

100. I'm sure it was both (nt)

[paulsby]

10. lay down what law?

are we going to kneejerk and criminalize name calling?
or were you referring to the sharing of the picture (which is - technically - a crime)

[aikoaiko]

3. There are people on this board who think underage teens should be allowed to sebd nude pics...

...but this example highlights why they shouldn't. Teens may not be able to foresee the consequences of sending nude photos of themselves over cellphones/internet and then suffer horribly.

I do not believe that child porn laws should be used to reach these means, but some kind of legal action may be necessary to help stop this from happening.

Sad story.


edited title

[AngryAmish]

7. THere I have to disagree

Not everything is a crime. One teen sending another a nude pic is a terrible idea and not in either of their best interest. But it is not a crime.

And lets see how that crime would get enforced...against children of color and gay kids. Imagine if a father of a white girl finds she sent a nude pic to a black boy...how quick will that black kid end up in jail? Or a gay boy sends a pic to another boy who isn't gay or interested.

Stop criminalizing being a teenager.

[paulsby]

12. actually, TECHNICALLY

it is a crime.

maybe the law should be changed, so it isn't

but it IS a crime.

i've personally investigated several of these cases.

assuming the girl was under 18, any explicit pictures of her are by definition - child porn and disseminating same IS a crime.

[AngryAmish]

24. Hope was a child pornographer?

You are right - she was. I think the law should be changed.

[paulsby]

27. i agree

like most legislation, the legislature never considered the full ramifications of the law and they passed the law to make it very bright line (with some exceptions).

i do not think a minor who photographs themself nude and distributes the pictures should be charged with disseminating and manufacturing child porn. the reality is that prosecutors are understandably loathe to do so, and generally do not do so.

the problem is that when that juvie makes that porn and sends it out in the aether, it becomes (in many cases) yet another piece of child porn that hundreds, if not thousands of people end up seeing.

that's why the law tries to nip it in the bud.

[kelly1mm]

34. What are your thoughts on those (minors or otherwise) who pass

the picture along? It seems as if the person producing the "child porn" and sending it (distribution of child porn) and if they send it to another minor perhaps contributing to the delinquency of a minor/moral corruption of a minor (depending on the state) gets a pass then do those down the line get a pass as well? Only those under the age of majority? Or only the person it was sent to? Does that person get to keep it without repercussions? Big can of worms I think.

[aikoaiko]

18. "Stop criminalizing being a teenager" That doesn't even make sense.

But I am open to other suggestions on how to address it. Maybe there is some way through Child Protective Services but I don't know.

I liken it to underage drinking. The consequences don't have to be jail, but it allows authorities to get involved.

[RoyGBiv]

15. Yes, of course ...

Legal action does need to be taken against individuals who torture others emotionally and sometimes physically because they made a mistake.

Some kind of action needs to be taken against parents of children who raise their child in such a way that they will harass and taunt their peers until they "do what everyone else is doing" and send that nude pic so "I'll be your friend."

Action needs to be taken against a culture that indoctrinates the idea in young girls and boys that the only way to find love and acceptance is to transform yourself into an overly-sexualized caricature of youth or demand that from others.

The *picture* wasn't the problem. The problem was an environment in which young women are taught that their only worth lies beneath their clothing and young men are led to believe they must pursue that flesh to be "men." This is just another kind of bullying that did not begin nor end with "the picture."

I'm sure you didn't intend it (and I mean that sincerely), but you are very close to blaming the victim here. That boy, whom she had a crush on, very likely told her, "Send me a nude pic, and I'll like you back" or words to that effect. The social pressure encouraged her, and then another kind of social pressure killed her, most likely originating with a rival for either hers or the boy's affections or some asshat fundamentalist type who takes things to the opposite extreme.

[seabeyond]

22. girls self worth in sexuality, boys must pursue to be "men". teach our children well.

yes.

this is the problem that i see with our youth today.

it is hitting them from all angles of their world, repetitively.

[aikoaiko]

29. I can see why you would warn me about blaming the victim.

Really, I am blaming us as a society for not being able to prevent tragedies like this and the first place to stop it is at the source. the pictures.

We have laws to prevent children or intervene with children who stay out past curfew, loiter, play hooky from school, etc because those actions place children in vulnerable positions.

And yes, we need to do a lot more to stop bullying at schools and provide adequate counseling to teens at risk.

edited for typos

[RoyGBiv]

32. Fair enough ...

It seems we understand each other and do not actually disagree.

Thank you for the response.

[redqueen]

47. Once again, I wish we could rec posts here.

So very well said. Thank you.

[Blue_Tires]

55. excellent points

[Canuckistanian]

79. +1

Insightful commentary.

[Odin2005]

74. WTF? So you are saying the victim should be punished for being a stupid, scared teen?

[aikoaiko]

77. No, I think we should give teens a reason to not put themselves to extremely vulnerable situations

like truancy, drinking, and out after curfew laws. The purpose is not to punish, but to be able to intervene with social services.

We do this all the time with juveniles. We create laws to help protect them from their poor decisions.

Included should be laws about minors distributing these images (but not child porn laws which are intended for adults who hurt children to make the images).

[varelse]

11. Bullying led to the suicide

there is no excuse for the behaviour of the bullies - or their enablers.

[paulsby]

14. bullying is not a crime

unless it consists of illegal stuff like assault. calling people names is not a crime. it's called free speech.

disseminating the pictures IS a crime, if she is under 18.

being a meanie is not

[RoyGBiv]

16. So it's her fault?

[paulsby]

19. nice strawman

i said no such thing. i was referring to legal issues. as to who is morally culpable, that's another issue entirely. could the parents try to sue the people who were calling her names and stuff? sure. it's america. you can sue a ham sandwich. would they win? hopefully and probably not.

the reality is that there are literally millions of instances every year of kids being meanies to other kids. the VAST majority do not result in suicide. some do.

[RoyGBiv]

21. I know you said no such thing ...

I inferred it from your premise and asked for clarification, which is not a strawman. Your unnecessarily sarcastic use of the term "meanies" quite clearly could lead one to that conclusion as it implies you have little to no respect for those who have suffered under this kind of abuse.

You, however, did create a strawman and knocked that sucker down when you replied to the previous respondent citing legal issues. The person to whom you replied brought up "no such thing."

True, the reality is that millions of people are bullied by others. Sometimes it's emotional abuse. Sometimes it's physical. At still other times, it's both. It's always abuse. The severity varies among instances of the abuse, which is a factor in how the victim reacts to it. Also at issue are other social and familial pressures.

But the key ingredient in these cases is the abuse, not the picture, or the bad haircut, or the glasses, or the fat belly or pimpled skin or awkward manner of talking, walking, or just breathing.

Childhood bullies are an anathema to a safe and decent society, and they grow up to be adult bullies who abuse and rape and steal and kill because, well, they're just a bunch of meanies, and that shit happens, so we shouldn't expect anything else.

[paulsby]

23. there is a bright line

between name calling and criminal acts.

recall for example, the lori drew case where all the statists here were calling for her to be prosecuted, when in fact she had done nothing ILLEGAL. the prosecutor used a sham charge, and the case was rightfully reversed on appeal.

the reality is that bullies suck

the reality is that bullies have always sucked and will always suck

the reality is that the only thing that bullies respond to (in most cases) is a good punch in the kisser.

it is true that in many instances of suicide, there was some bullying. in others, not. just like homicide, for instance (think columbine).

in a perfect world, people wouldn't be mean to each other. in the real world, it happens. most people deal with it. some, as in the instant case, do not.

[RoyGBiv]

25. Hold on to that n/t

[paulsby]

28. day by day nt

[redqueen]

48. There are laws, and there are ethics...

you seem to focus on only one side of the story.

[paulsby]

83. well, when you are talking about one thing

you are talking about one thing.

never did i say it was a good thing that the kids bullied her. i merely said it was common, and most people who are bullied do not commit suicide.

i hate bullies. one of the great things about my job is that i get to help victims get justice against bullies.

[varelse]

26. As you are well aware, I did not say that bullying was a crime

although, in some circumstances, it is considered harassment and is actually forbidden by law.

My point is, the harassing behaviour is inexcusable on a moral, human level and should not be tolerated by the parents, school officials, and other responsible adults who are acting in the role of guardians and role models for children.

Sexting didn't kill this child - unrelenting self-righteous judgmental harassment did her in.

[paulsby]

36. i certainly agree with you

that bullying is not an excusable thing.

the only thing that killed this child was HERSELF. it wasn't the harassment that did her in. it was a contributory factor, sure.

but did the bullying contribute to her decision? sure. is that sad? yes.

but she also did, to SOME extent, create her own victimization. there is a cynical saying in many circles, "there are no victims".

that's going a bit far lol, but she did do a GROSSLY irresponsible thing. i mean how many times has she seen people like paris hilton, prejean, and others have to deal with a bunch of crap because their pictures or video got out into the public eye. she should have used common sense, not that i necessarily expect that from a teenager, but hey... i'm an optimist

[varelse]

38. You and I part ways there

this child made a mistake, as so many humans do. The response was to hound her until she killed herself. I doubt that her agressors are as sanguine as you seem to be about their role in her death.

[paulsby]

40. like i said

bullying is very very common. far more common than suicide, and most people who are called names don't kill themselves.

do i think the bullies are jerks? sure.

do i hold them responsible? no

[varelse]

41. but I do

them, and anyone who witnessed this and did nothing to stop it.

[distantearlywarning]

56. This is one of the most disgusting posts I've ever seen on DU.

Are you sure you're on the right site?

:puke:

[paulsby]

81. are you?

what exactly is disgusting?

and i'd rather be disgusting and accurate, than nice and pretty and clean, but inaccurate

[distantearlywarning]

97. You are in no way accurate.

And since you played the grad school card downstream in a pathetic attempt to defend your otherwise untenable positions, you should know that I'm a grad student too. I'm about to finish my Ph.D. in social psychology - my research area happens to be small group dynamics and reaction to antinormative behavior. In other words, I actually know a little something about the particular subject discussed in this thread - mean, unattractive, and dirty as it is (like most topics in the field). You don't, and your posts make that clear. Do everyone else here a favor and stop pretending like you do just because you've had 18 brazillion years of therapy. Also, shut your yap.

[paulsby]

117. so what was inaccurate

and i didn't play the grad school card. grad school falls under BFD. i mentioned it because you were trotting our yer penny psychology

hth

[Ishka Kibble]

71. You painted yourself into an odd corner.

The idea of using "lol" in a comment about a thirteen-year-old girl's suicide, and your perspective on it, suggests you're just as uncomfortable with your theories as you think other might be when they read what you wrote. Very odd, but I do understand that you're a bit ashamed of what you posted.

I'm not sure what sort of circles you've traveled, but anyone who makes a statement as stupid as "There are no victims" is probably still an undergraduate, struggling through that first Basics of Western Philosophy course, and trying to grasp the concept of situational ethics.

This child was a victim, but she didn't do anything wrong. She got confused because she was obviously inundated with conflicting messages, all the while dealing with a case of burgeoning hormones, and she did something that was final. She was far too young and inexperienced to know that these things blow over. The child was no willow, bending in the wind. She was a vulnerable and hurt child, and she did what she had to do to end her pain.

As for your assertion that a child of that age should somehow have taken lessons in how to behave from the likes of Paris Hilton, and the others (do you understand the concept of capital letters, by the way?), that just might be what got her into the fix that ultimately ended her life. You lack the most basic understanding of how children develop, and there is no "lol" attached to that.

For you to characterize the suicide of a thirteen-year-old as "a GROSSLY (you DO know about caps, I see) irresponsible thing" is another conclusion drawn out of absolutely no information. She was in pain. She did what she had to do to end it. Yet, you place yourself in the role of Judge, and you proclaim her "GROSSLY irresponsible." You are looking no further than the end of your nose - if that far.

Look at the adults around her. Look at her friends. Look at the thin slice of her world that we viewed through that feeble article, and then accept that you do not understand another's pain. When you do, you will then understand compassion, and perhaps won't be as embarrassed by your unnecessarily cruel statements as you obviously are.

[distantearlywarning]

78. +1 n/t

[paulsby]

82. get over yourself

yes, god forbid i used lol in reference to something, while commenting on a teen's suicide. oh noes

as for the "there are no victims" comment, that comes from a VERY salty detective and is actually somewhat of a cop and lawyer meme. i've heard a defense attorney say it once too. maybe you don't get out much into the real world.

she didn't do anything wrong? and then you say *i* lack a basic understanding of how children develop? that deserves a lol. so, i gave you one.

i didn't say her SUICIDE was grossly irresponsible, i said her sexting was grossly irresponsible.

in the real world (tm) , actions have consequences.

you have no idea what pain i understand or don't understand. i stand by my statements. it's terrible when a kid with her whole life ahead of her commits suicide.

[Ishka Kibble]

84. I don't have anything to get over.

Relax, and don't get so worked up. Your references are impeccable, and your chafing and defensiveness, without any kind of substantive or thoughtful composition, are entertaining.

lol

[paulsby]

86. whose chafed?

i got da baby powder and da truth.

[Ishka Kibble]

87. Be very careful.

Anyone who doesn't understand basic contractions as s/he claims to have "da truth" is either mad or stupid, or, worse, a combination of the two.

[paulsby]

88. be very careful

conflating laziness and typos with a lack of understanding is evidence of your lack of understanding... or something...

[Ishka Kibble]

89. You're a very good follower.

You are now derivative and utterly without substance, but you've let yourself be hooked. That need will always be there and it will always leave you in the wrong place.

[paulsby]

90. i follow from the front

but thanks for the penny psychology lesson. where were you 5 yrs ago? i could have saved myself the bother of grad school

[Ishka Kibble]

93. No, you don't follow from the front.

But you like to think that you do, once again strangling and straining the language, and then you sadly and impotently wave the grad school banner.

This no longer has anything to do with the topic at hand, and, frankly, I'll concede that yours is much bigger than mine, with the hope that it makes you feel better.

Ciao.

[bettyellen]

101. grossy irresposible or totally common (20% of teens are doing it) "ther are no victims" my ass

[seabeyond]

102. maybe the 20% should be told why the 80% arent doing it. nt

[bettyellen]

104. oh absoluyelt- but he;s acting like she did something so beyonfd the pale that she deserved this...

[seabeyond]

106. i dont think so. and dont sell the girl short. both teenage girls that killed themselves

came to the lessons themselves. how foolish it was they played the game. THEY owned what they did. the up side would have been if they had learned this very valueable lesson and gone on in life. the massively sad, is they werent able to and ended it. the lesson is for all the children, of both genders to see the results of poor choices. learn from it.

yes it is horrible what happened with the girls. and as time goes, hopefully more kids will be aware, more parents will be aware and more parents adn society as a whole can help our youth out, as we had them our adult world to live, without any guidence.

[Odin2005]

75. I have fucking PTSD from bullying. Your mindset is part of the problem.

Oh, and you are being a disgusting victim-blamer.

[TK421]

17. Bullying seems to be an OK practice by most parents.....of bullies, that is

and having been the target of bullies through grade school to high school, it's a real wonder she actually lasted as long as she did through it.

But...since this was a "sexting" related incident, I'm sure you won't see much action taken against it anytime soon

It's only words, after all

[Zodiak]

30. This is why bullying is wrong, no matter the reason.

The fact that it was a "sexting" incident, to me, is immaterial. Bullying is so common with American youth that the reasons for such are too numerous and varied to deal with individually. In my day, the gay kids were bullied mercilessly, as were the kids who were a bit malnourished and under-developed. 30% of the youth population are either bullies or being bullied. That is way too much.

It's not cute, and it should not be tolerated.

If you want to crack down on "sexting", fine, but it is not going to stop kids from killing themselves from bullying. The ones who can stop that are parents, teachers, peers, and administrators.

Heck, I even wrote a song and made a video about it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22LDvqFBzQM

Bullies should not be tolerated, but it is all too commonly dismissed as "kids being kids". I notice in this story that these boys seemed to be free to treat Hope in any way they wished without fear of repercussions. That is what has to change.

Heck, look at the behavior of some DUers towards one another. How can we discourage bullying with kids when we adults are so prone to it?

[varelse]

31. Absolutely correct

Thank you for this. The "kids will be kids" stuff is bullshit - bullying and hateful acts don't stop when a person reaches a certain age. So many poor, homeless, gay, minority, or just plain different people would still be alive if this were true.

[dustbunnie]

33. Parents need to use these tragic cases to drum reality into the heads of their kids.

Both boys and girls. Nothing good can come of sending a naked body with an identifying face pic to anybody, particularly fickle, cruel children.

But then again, I belong to a fitness site where people often post pics to show their progress. The responses are often vile and ultra mean, and people are not above photoshopping heads onto porn pics. These are adults in their 20's, and you'd think they'd be less masochistic, or know better than to keep coming back for more, but they do regardless. I guess you can't expect better from kids ten years younger.

[seabeyond]

35. i had my two boys watch an interview from the other girl that killed herself.

it was so very very sad and hard for my youngest son to watch, but told them i felt important that they truly saw, felt, understood the pain it causes people, and the unintended results because of careless, thoughtless action of another.

i agree.

this is a teen issue, not a gender issue.

[dustbunnie]

37. Good for you. Someday I'm going to do the same.

Although the technology will probably be 1000 times more advanced the way we're going.

Both boys and girls are targets, but girls get the worst of it, I think. At that other site I posted about, I've seen pics of of young guys, maybe 19 or 20, shirtless, or in their skivvies, innocently posing their chests or biceps. Someone comes along and photoshops their heads onto porn pics so it looks like the boy is servicing a much older man, etc... These get passed around, downloaded and plastered onto other sites. Someday those victims are going to be looking for jobs. Oy Vey. I'm told that girls and boys also take embarrassing pics of each other in gym class or elsewhere to disseminate with the intent to torture and bully each other.

[varelse]

39. It's a human issue

if ONLY it were just a teen issue. Bullying, harassment and hate crimes are all part of a horrific continuum that shatters lives every day.

[seabeyond]

42. well, this is true. i feel that adults are more equipped to handle it though

in every way. but i agree with you

[varelse]

Ironically, there are more laws in place to protect adults

From laws forbidding harassment in the workplace to laws preventing voter intimidation, we seem to have more protection than children do: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4168785&mesg_id=4168785

[varelse]

49. Most adults are indeed more equipped to handle bullying and harassment

however, it is illegal in the workplace and elsewhere because it is harmful and completely unecessary. That is why it is so sad to see this behaviour dismissed as "business as usual" when children are the victims.

I wonder how the kids feel now that they know the child is dead. Her friends must be beside themselves with grief and rage. How many more ripples will pass through that school before this incident is put behind everyone involved (except for the parents for whom it will never be over)?

[TuxedoKat]

110. Did you find that online?

I'd like my daughter to see it. Thanks.

[seabeyond]

111. i did see it on line. she did an interview and then went on mom talking about loss.....

heart rendering. was a news clip and i believe it was a local news clip. maybe if you enter the gals name in goggle you will find it.

and it is a good piece for the girls to listen to. the young gal was talking to her peers...

[TuxedoKat]

113. Thanks (nt)

[southernyankeebelle]

43. What in the world is was this girl thinking about. OMG 13 yrs old?

I'm shocked she even had a boyfriend. I know I'm old but at 13 I wasn't even allowed to shave my legs and I certainly was't allowed to go out on a date. Wow times sure has changed. I feel bad for the girl. But if she hadn't sent the picture in the first place than there would be no problem.

[varelse]

45. She did not in any way deserve the harassment which drove her to commit suicide

Gay, lesbian, poor, developmentally disabled and "different" children have also been driven to murder or suicide by bullying. This kind of harassment leaves lasting scars and can cause psychological problems and delayed development for years after the attacks.

The real moral issue here is the callous and dismissive attitude toward bullying and harassment.

[liquid diamond]

118. You and I are a minority in this thread.

While I find her suicide unfortunate, sending a naked picture of herself to a guy was a stupid ass thing to do. When are young girls going to learn from others' mistakes, so they aren't making the same ones?

[Ishka Kibble]

44. This is funny.

While the horribly tragic story of a dead thirteen-year-old girl is the main topic, all the compassionate and sensitive souls - well, not all of them - go off on the legality/morality/practicality of bullying.

Did anyone notice a little girl killed herself because, somehow, no one ever taught her that taking and sending pictures of her breasts to a boy she liked was not a good thing to do?

Did anyone notice that a little girl is dead, and all the laws you want to make against bullying aren't going to change one thing in the lives of her parents and the people who loved her?

Why did this child think she was so worthless, it was all she could do to be noticed, to send pictures of her breasts.

Thirteen years old.

And the bullying debate goes on, completely missing the point.

Why didn't this child respect herself just a little bit more? Where did everyone fail her?

[varelse]

46. I feel you are missing the point

Her parents did everything in their power to transmit their views of morality to their daughter. Unfortunately, this caused her, as it has caused you apparently, to blame herself for the cruelty and callousness of others, rather than seeking help.

[Ishka Kibble]

53. Your feelings are worthwhile.

But I'm more interested in thinking. Feeling is quite subjective, but not appropriate to the subject at hand.

Apparently, she got the message somewhere along the line that it was all right to debase yourself in order to win the attention of a boy. That, to my thinking, suggests that her parents, along with all the other influential adults in the child's life, failed her. Did you notice that they were careful to take her to a "Christian counselor"?

I wonder what that means. If you've ever had to deal with people needing psychological or psychiatric help, did you inquire as to the religious beliefs and practices of the therapist, or did you care that you were getting the best available professional for the person who needed help?

Obviously, the parents and their views of morality somehow got tangled up in that little girl's head, and so, if that is what they transmitted to her, in your language, it only served to do harm to the child. Perhaps their "views of morality" weren't all that healthy or all that consistent. Clearly, the child needed more than they got for her, and, in the end, a little girl is dead while prattlers prattle about writing laws against bullying, a red herring if ever I saw one.

In the end, that child didn't die because she blamed herself for the cruelty and callousness of others - you missed the point entirely and betrayed your lack of understanding of depression. That child died because she was taught one thing - do whatever you have to do to seduce the boys - and was then punished for doing so.

The little girl died of confusion, and that confusion was caused by the adults. That's the part they're never going to grasp, but they'll probably talk it over for a good long time with a counselor whose religious beliefs miraculously coincide with theirs.

Things, you might work on this, are far more complicated than any cursory view ever admits.

[seabeyond]

57. i agree. i have been thinking about this since yesterday.

to feel she needed to do this to be liked back. article confusing but bf's everywhere, lol. what is that at 13. and then pressured by older boys to take pictures when it is said she didn't want to.

all that indicates a child that isn't getting something in growing up.

then to choose suicide. the ultimate in poor choice.

talking about this with my son this morning.

lots of sadness and empathy for her struggles, but we see the girls that do this with the need to be liked, and see the girls with confidence and self worth that would say fuck that shit.

something was amiss

[Juche]

67. She was 13

People make mistakes their whole lives. But expecting a 13 year old of all people to never make a mistake is impossible.

[Ishka Kibble]

68. I don't understand.

I think the child's actions are perfectly understandable - and not a mistake - given the situation in which she found herself. I don't think she made a mistake, not when you look at the entire situation.

The adults around her made mistakes. They're the ones with the culpability. The kids around her were being kids, and it's part of being a kid to be cruel and to do bad things to other kids. That's how it goes, and it's not always pretty. But, those kids didn't know that, either.

She did what she had to do, and all anyone can do is to mourn her and miss her and wish it could have been different. But I don't think her suicide was a mistake - the little girl was in pain, and she did the only thing she knew that would end her pain. That's hardly a mistake.

People might not like that or be comfortable with it or even understand it, but it's one perspective on the situation. She was let down by the adults around her who gave her all the wrong messages, despite that badly-written story that obviously leaves out factors and facts that we'll never know.

She didn't make a mistake.

[Juche]

70. I'm talking about the self worth issue

And you you felt a society that places no innate worth on people led to this problem. My reference to 'a mistake' was her sexting a picture of herself. I do agree with you that we need more work on self worth, but I think self worth is something that comes partly from life experience. I have far more self worth than I did at 30, and I know many of my friends do too.

So you are right we need to teach self worth to children. But I don't think a 13 year old will ever have the innate self worth of a 50 year old. I think the ability to see that you have value outside of your usefulness as an object (employee, parent, gender, social status) is something that comes from life experience.

[Ishka Kibble]

73. I don't feel a thing about this matter.

I work with thoughts, and not feelings when it's not affecting someone I care about personally. This is a matter that I am viewing from a distance, and so are you.

We know almost nothing of the child's life.

Did she kill herself because she lacked a sense of "self-worth," whatever that is? I don't indulge in psychobabble, so the term is meaningless to me.

She died to end her pain. Where that pain came from, well, we'll never know. She was a good kid, it seemed, who also lied to her parents about things - note the anecdote about the caller ID on the TV screen. She was a frightened child who did what her little friends told her to do to assuage a boy who was pursuing her and scared her. She was taken by her parents to "a Christian counselor."

I never claimed that we "need to teach self worth to children." I think we need to be aware of the assaults on children every day and deal with them honestly. I would never compare a thirteen-year-old to a fifty-year-old, and I have no idea why you did that. It's meaningless. Your own accomplishments will make you proud of yourself, not being "taught self worth," or being given a trophy to aid in your "self esteem." That's just more Oprah nonsense, another step in the dumbing down of American citizens.

The child killed herself to end her pain - that's all that matters. Find the sources of her pain, and you're on the beginning - just the beginning - of how the adults around her made some dandy and lasting mistakes.

[Juche]

80. Well, that was the impression I got from it

I felt you were implying the girl had low self worth (leading her to send naked photos of herself), and I assumed you meant we should teach self worth to children based on that.


Did anyone notice a little girl killed herself because, somehow, no one ever taught her that taking and sending pictures of her breasts to a boy she liked was not a good thing to do?

Why did this child think she was so worthless, it was all she could do to be noticed, to send pictures of her breasts.

Why didn't this child respect herself just a little bit more? Where did everyone fail her?


So I responded by explaining my view, that a 13 year old isn't going to have the level of self worth of someone who has had more experiences and a better perspective.

You talk about where her pain came from. She didn't kill herself until she was publicly humiliated by peers. Had she never been publicly humiliated she would still be alive today I'm sure.

Either way, I don't know. I am sure there are effective anti-bullying interventions out there that have been proven to help.

[Ishka Kibble]

85. You keep referring to feelings.

I'm thinking, and wondering, and trying to conceptualize, but feelings are a whole different thing. Perhaps that's where we part company.

The child wasn't treated well or competently by the adults around her. For a counselor to warn the girl about cutting herself instead of getting her into either a facility that handles kids who hurt themselves or into the care of a competent counselor who knew what he or she was doing with troubled adolescents was the height of professional irresponsibility. That girl needed so much more than the adults bothered to give her.

This is a kind of "falling through the cracks" situation that is just tragic. A girl who is cutting herself already has a set of problems that did not begin with sending boys pictures of her breasts. There was something else there, a history that no one either wanted to uncover or even dared to consider. I have my own thoughts about what might have been, but they're meaningless here.

The idea that bullying somehow caused this girl's suicide is simply looking at a mahogany veneer and believing that the item is made entirely of mahogany. Not at all. It's more like an iceberg, with ninety percent of it out of view. The girl had problems, big problems, and this sexting/boy-crazy thing was just the last part of it.

She had a history, I'd bet anything on it, that involved molestation, but that's something no one will ever know. And it also may be why her parents never bothered to get her proper help beyond a few sessions with a "Christian counselor."

[bettyellen]

103. you don;t think it was a mistake the girl killed herself? then you know nothing about suicide at all

[Ishka Kibble]

116. You don't know what a mistake is.

Your understanding is different from mine. I would never be so rude as to tell you that you "know nothing about suicide at all." That's so far off the mark as to be laughable, but you don't know me. Your presumption, though, is wrongheaded and shallow. But, if it works for you, that's good.

[Egnever]

50. Hope wasn't a troubled girl. She was an "A" and "B" student in all subjects

WTF? So if you get A's and b's you must be emotionally secure? What a dumb shit thing to say.


Yay for more sick twisted shit drudged up and posted by charles btw.

[Blackhatjack]

51. In a society that seeks punishment of children as adults rather than their rehabilitation ...

... it is clear that we are expecting 'children' to have a level of mental clarity, judgment, and sophistication, that is just not present at that age.

What this girl needed was someone to help her realize her error in judgment AND HELP HER transition back into her school and among her peers.

There is often a price to pay for insisting that children act as adults, and be punished like adults. Suicide is almost always tied directly to self-image, and 'laying down the law' regarding 'sexting' does not affect a child's value system like it would an adult's.

I feel for her parents, her friends, and even those who ignored her humanity and treated it as a joke by passing on the images --for they all will live with the consequences.

[seabeyond]

52. we have also readily handed our children our adult world to play in right along side of us. nt

[varelse]

59. Amen

I feel for her parents, her friends, and even those who ignored her humanity and treated it as a joke by passing on the images --for they all will live with the consequences.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. I blame the guidance counselor.

A "no harm contract?" That's just stupid. Can't blame the kid for wanting to get out of that bull shit.

[varelse]

61. I feel that if the parents had been notified of the self inflicted injuries

and their implications, they might have been able to save her life. One of several ways in which the "responsible adults" in this situation fell short of fulfilling their duties.

[distantearlywarning]

58. There are so many things wrong with this story it's hard to even know where to start

But here's one: the reaction of the guidance counselor was not to try to help her deal with the harrassment, stop the harrassment, help her feel better, or anything else that might actually be something tangibly useful. No, all they cared about was having her not display any visible symptoms of severe emotional distress (like cutting). Wow.

And here's another: there's a suggestion made in the article, and even by some of the posters in this thread, that there must have been something wrong with Hope for 1) the harrassment to happen in the first place, and 2) that she would react so extremely to the situation (instead of just "shrugging it off, kids will be kids after all, what's the big deal unless you're emotionally deficient?"). I wonder how the adult individuals dismissing her feelings would react if everybody in their workplace started following them around their office mocking them and calling them a slut day after day. Would they just ignore it and go on happily with their lives, being the mature adults that they are who understand that sometimes other people just engage in a little teasing? No emotions involved, just "shrugging it off"? Would they fully acknowledge that the harrassment was somehow their own fault, because after all, every victim in the entire world contributes to their own victimization?

Why do we expect kids to just get over social situations that no adult would EVER tolerate? Why?

Here's a newsflash, blame-the-victim-ers and just-get-over-it-ers: there's such a thing as workplace bullying, which happens to adults. It doesn't always stop at middle school. And it could happen to you, even if you don't do something as shameful and deserving of humiliation as try to get someone to like you by texting a naked picture of yourself. Sometimes it just happens. It might happen to you. And I hope you are able to "just get over it" and take full responsibility for the fact that you "asked for it" when it happens, just like you are expecting this poor girl to do.

You might also want to read this for some insight into why you're so eager and willing to assume that bad things that people do to one another are deserved or only happen to people who "ask for it":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_world_hypothesis

And you might also want to consider that the "responsibility culture" you've apparently been brainwashed by is largely a product of the right-wing spin machine. One man's schoolyard bullying victim (who deserves to be hounded into suicide) is another man's welfare queen (who shouldn't have food stamps), immigrant (who doesn't need health care), gay man (who doesn't need equal rights or who deserves to be beaten up by strangers), and so on and so forth. If you REALLY think this girl brought it on herself and should be able to deal with constant, daily harrassment from her peers just because she sent a text (at age 14, no less), maybe you're at the wrong website. Because this isn't just about one dumb 14-year-old girl. It's about an entire right-wing culture of cruel indifference, victim blaming, stigmatizing and harrassing non-conformists, mixed messages where people are told that doing something is simultaneously normative and shameful, and standing by while others behave badly. And every one of you who post stuff like "kids will be kids" or "Hope brought it on herself" is contributing to all of that. Just thought you should know. :grr:

[varelse]

60. I wish I could recommend a reply

Yours is the most comprehensive and best analysis I have yet seen, of this tragedy and the public reaction to it.

[bettyellen]

105. me too

[Blackhatjack]

62. You make an excellent point that even adults wouldn't handle this situation well...

Adults who have been bullied or hounded over a social disaster have committed suicide as well.

She needed help from an understanding adult, and even moreso since she was only 13 yrs old lacking an adult's experience and judgment.

[varelse]

63. Some adults faced with similar treatment have committed murder

Others of a more progressive bent have worked for laws which allow harassed adults to sue the living shit out of workplace harassers. The same shit my sisters and I put up with in junior high and high school (by idiots who assumed we were lesbians because we DIDN'T "put out") would be grounds for a multimillion dollar lawsuit in the modern workplace.

[distantearlywarning]

64. Why bother trying to change anything about society?

Everybody knows that people just do mean things, and there's not anything anyone can do about it, right? The world is shit, and emotionally healthy, mature people just eat their shit sandwich quietly without any tears and they certainly don't try to actually do anything about it.

At least that's what I read up-thread. It's the new progressive, liberal, democratic way - true wisdom lies in not doing anything about anything.

:sarcasm:

[distantearlywarning]

65. P.S.

Re: multimillion dollar lawsuits - exactly! Not too many adults would ever put up with treatment from their peers that they expect their teenage children to just shrug off.

[Juche]

69. Exactly

Life 'feels' safer if you can find a way to blame the victim. And as long as you don't do what the victim did, you'll be safe. Its no coincidence that the far right shares these views so they can more easily pretend the world is more safe and fair than it actually is. They believe homosexuality is a choice, genetics/environment play no role in crime, poor people are all lazy and make bad decisions, etc. She made a mistake, but she was 13 and everyone makes mistakes all the time.

Of course once it is your turn to get screwed over (and everyone gets screwed over in life), its going to hit like a ton of bricks if you've convinced yourself that only bad people have bad things happen to them.

I was seriously mentally ill my last year in high school. And I'm 30 now. And my life and mind are nothing like they would've been had it not been for that event. I have no idea what kind of person I'd have been had I never been sick. These are kids who have no real sense of perspective or ability to escape. At least if you are an adult, you can get another job or a divorce or walk away. A 13 year old doesn't have the life experience, self esteem or freedom to do that.

[Odin2005]

76. Excellent post!

"And you might also want to consider that the "responsibility culture" you've apparently been brainwashed by is largely a product of the right-wing spin machine. One man's schoolyard bullying victim (who deserves to be hounded into suicide) is another man's welfare queen (who shouldn't have food stamps), immigrant (who doesn't need health care), gay man (who doesn't need equal rights or who deserves to be beaten up by strangers), and so on and so forth."

A-FUCKING-MEN!!! many of the blame-the-victim posts in this thread are DISGUSTING!

[raccoon]

92. Great post. nt

[TuxedoKat]

109. Thank you.

This is one of the best posts I've ever read on DU. As a parent of a child who was bullied in middle school, physically, racially and sexually, I agree with you, especially as you say, where adults expect kids "to just get over social situations that no adult would EVER tolerate?" Especially when the kids can't really escape from the abuse either as they are in school so many hours weekly. At least adults have the option of going somewhere else, using HR to stop the bullying or find other ways to stop the bullying.

I moved my daughter to another school when the school didn't bother to address the bullying which it knew about. I did this with the idea that it was possibly necessary to do this to save her life. I'm sorry Hope's parents didn't realize the severity of the situation and that her school was so negligent. Her school, like mine, once they knew of the bullying, should have done whatever it took to stop the bullying. I don't care if they have to hire child actors to go undercover to determine the perpetrators, they are required by law (Title 9, thank you Sen. Kennedy) to investigate.

[Odin2005]

72. OMG! Some of those bullies need a long jail stint. Ugh, poor young lady!

:cry:

[raccoon]

91. The double standard is still very much alive. nt

[blueamy66]

94. How many parents of teenagers here check their childrens'

phones on a regular basis?

Cause I sure would be.

[cali]

95. beats me, My 23 year old didn't have a cell phone until he

was out of high school.

[seabeyond]

96. my kids dont have cell phones for about 4 reasons. we dont follow trends

cause everyone does it. not the attitude in this house. and... it is good stuff. makes us look at things, results and consequences. always leaves conversations open in all kinds of direction

kids dont do the chats, the my space and facebook.

and they are doing good. they dont lack. dont feel like they are being picked on. and i never hear "everybody else...." ever

[MilesColtrane]

98. Not sure if this girl had a phone either.

The story says she used a friend's phone to take the picture.

What a sad confluence of peer pressure, bullying, and ineffective parenting.

[seabeyond]

99. part of the parenting role is to help empower the children so they are able to withstand

the peer pressure.

that is the greatest failing that i see.

we cannot expect to protect our children from all. our role is to provide our children with an ability to meet these challenges. that is the empowering of our kids that will serve them well for a lifetime and what was obviously missing for this young girl and so many of our teens.

[MilesColtrane]

107. I agree.

The story also reveals that when her parents found out about the incident they sent her to a "Christian counselor".

Hopefully, it wasn't one of the fundamentalist variety who told her that she was a dirty sinner.

[seabeyond]

108. guilt is painful and destructive. owning our part in our mistakes is healing

and empowering.

living in fundie world and sending kids to a christian school for early years clearly showed me how using the bible to raise the kids did so much damage and retarding the sexuality. we have the same extreme on the other side where we hand our kids adult world of porn and say, educate yourself.

the first bible verse they are taught is "we are all sinners". didnt think much with first child. but the second child that will grab on any excuse for misbehavior. as soon as i said that verse out loud to him, to teach for a test at 5 i said no. no way. what are they saying. beautiful you..... sinner, nu uh. and laughing and teasing with him. so he wouldnt grab hold of that verse and take to heart. since i saw how destructive that has been with the fundies in this area.

there is a middle ground that allows to to explore their sexuality in a healthy and balanced manner

[liquid diamond]

119. You are a great parent.

[seabeyond]

120. on some things. not so much on others

but then we openly discuss that too. lol. being perfectly imperfect allows them to be too.

thanks

[mentalsolstice]

112. I'm late to this discussion, but I have a few observations

1. I doubt this was the first time a girl sexted a breast shot at this school, and Hope was probably well aware of this. However, as in other areas of society, adolescents have a pecking order. For example, in high school, I hung around some with the most popular girl, and let me tell you I saw things, but it was all shushed. Less popular girls, myself included learned the hard way that we couldn't get away with the same stuff, without it being in the grapevine within hours. There's a lot of pressure on both girls and boys at that age, and no matter how much we're taught about self-respect at home, the opposite message pervades at school.

2. Why in the hell was she suspended the first week of school. The incident took place at the end of the previous year. It seems to me the suspension just served to put Hope and the whole issue right out in front again. If they wanted to punish her, I think they could have done so much more discreetly. During the summer and preceding the new school year the school administrators and counselors should have had a proactive plan to make sure Hope could thrive in school.

3. Bullying in school does need to be addressed. It is a huge problem. As one person said, most victims do not kill themselves, however, they can suffer lifelong consequences. It is not fair that a group of kids can have that much power over other kids' lives. It probably can't be criminalized. However, it can be handled much the way we do with adults who act out, with anger-management or something similar.

[Blackhatjack]

114. Not every violation of rules or inappropriate act requires punishment ....

Often imposing punishment just reinforces the child's negative self-image, and keeps the same pattern going. They are treated as being bad, punished, and therefore tend to agree with the superior that they must be 'bad.'

In many cases you can break the cycle for good by introducing behavior modification that allows the student to understand why the conduct is inappropriate and how to avoid repeating the conduct without formally imposing punishment.

Kids often do things on impulse without seeing or appreciating the possible consequences.

We had a couple of young teens who thought it would be cool to toss rocks off a highway overpass, and it never occurred to them that a person riding in a car below them would be killed --which is exactly what happened. They never intended to kill anyone, but a death resulted from their actions.

This girl needed someone to help her, not punish her by highlighting her indiscretion with a very public suspension from the 1 week of school --which reminded everyone of the act all over again.

[mentalsolstice]

115. I agree with you

Punishment is not the answer. Kids often do not understand the consequences. And as I said before one girl could sext a picture and suffer no consequences at all, while another girl would be hounded to death, as a result of the pecking order in school social groups. So many different messages being conveyed at that age, it's hard for a young teen to discern what is appropriate. Our local Childrens Hospital deals with child and teen sex abuse cases, it would be nice to see their professionals take on issues such as this.

[rd_kent]

121. Perhaps this is a good reason to keep cell phones out of the hands of minors.....

I am NOT blaming this girl, so shut the fuck up with THAT shit right now. My point is that a 12 year old does NOT need a cell phone, especially at school. If parents thought their kids NEED a cell phone, get a BASIC one that ONLY MAKE PHONE CALLS, no pics, no texts.......

Bottom line, PARENTS are responsible for their kids.

[Unvanguard]

122. Stupid media scare. They have no control.

It's not as if bullying didn't exist before there were cell phones.

Note also that the school's punishment only made things worse. (What should they have done, thrown her in prison?)