Full Moon Tonight - A Rant Long Overdue

[debbierlus]

It is happening.

The significant breakoff of the progressive left is occuring tonightm, and it is a good thing. I mean it. It has taken those with the most progressive agenda this long to get here, look at how much it took for us to realize what a sham this whole thing is...how long we have walked in lockstop with the democrats as they betrayed our most core princples. I am not surprised that it is going to take the rest of the country a long to get where we are now..We are the minority.

And, you know, like any minority, we often get shit on...

We tell people things they don't like to hear because we want to help them along, and we are viewed as the enemy to these people.

Hey, all you Obama supporters who constantly bash progressives who tell you the things you don't want to hear!

LISTEN UP - We are NOT saying these things because we are against you. We are NOT saying these things because we want to 'hate on' the President. Just like YOU were trying to help the Bush supporters who didn't understand the danger and truth of supporting Bush, we are pointing out the danger & truth of supporting a President and a Party that doesn't represent you.

I may get tombstoned for this post, and if I do, I that will be fine because it it time for the liberals to talk to the rest of the democrats and say, HEY, WHEN DID LISTENING TO YOUR LIBERAL VALUES EVER STEER YOU WRONG?

Did it ever? EVER?

The right thing is easy to know and it isn't complicated. There is no complicated justifications needed. There is no maze you have to manuever. People believe truth to be hard to take, but this constant justification for things that are not justifiable is much harder and the more you do it, the more you go away from your principles and the things that matter.

As far as this war is concerned...I may not know everything, but I know this much. The reason should for going to war should be able to be made clear in a paragraph. If you have to ask why you are even there, you know what? You shouldn't fucking be there. This war in Afghanistan is not winnable. There is no definition given by Obama of what winning even would look like.
None. That's the second rule of going to war, you have to know what you are fighting for in order to be able to WIN. And, when no victory is possible, that is no war you want to fight. Or, spend 1 million dollars per soldier on.

And, when you economy stands on the brink of collapse because the corporations have just pillaged the American people into abject poverty and you are waiting for jobs to come back when you see before your eyes people who keep getting fired, and where the hell are the jobs going to come from anyway since we don't make anything anymore....if you're flat broke and one in four children is on food stamps and your life is not being immediately threatened....you don't go continue to expand war....

And, when you have to dispatch the LAST troops your nation has in reserve, in case of emergency, and you don't require a draft for more troops because you know the support for the war is so weak that the war would never be fought if you made everyone send THEIR kids...that is when you know not to expand war.

Would you send YOUR kid for this cause?

If you were honest, you would say NEVER. Because it isn't WORTH IT. This numbness and blase' attitude about war has go to end. And, supporting Obama doesn't justify ANYTHING. NOTHING. Because this isn't about Obama. This isn't about the democratic party. It is not about them. They don't matter. It is US that matters and the more we enable the people who sustain the system that oppresses us, we are enslaving ourselves and our children and grandchildren to a nation of death, greed, and utter hopelessness.

You want hope. You want change. Open your eyes. LOOK AT WHAT THESE POLITICIANS DO!

How can any politician, ANY politician argue that the billions alotted for war on borrowed money wouldn't do more to help our security if spent at home?

Hungry, jobless, uneducated, and hopeless people don't provide much security for the homeland.

A complete economic collapse is going to make us WAY more vulnerable, and the money spent on these wars are facilitating are economic collapse. There is another really good rule of thumb...don't go to war when the expense could facilitate complete economic collapse.

I don't think people understand, we REALLY REALLY REALLLY do not have the money for this. This magic borrowing from China and the Saudis and India and the rest will not last forever. We already have pretty much set up the scenario for our enslavement to China (Buy American? See if you can FIND something to buy that we make)! This war is going to drive us over the financial cliff.

This insanity has to end. We have got to regain our ability as a people, as a collective WHOLE to confront truth and have real dialogue about the actual issues and policies....This isn't happening here. We are so microscopically caught up in this one party game of a political system and watching these scenarios unfold as helpless specators, we don't even know how to have discussions about how to envision real change in the world.

We don't even talk about how we envision things COULD be because we are so vested in the false befief it is the politicians who control everything and corporations, but really it is US. We are so disenganged from our world and our lives, we act it all out through this sick game.

All right, I am done. Unrecommend, recommend. Hate, love, whatever.

I just needed to get that out!

[sendero]

1. +1 n/t

[niyad]

2. k and r, and very well said.

[valerief]

3. Great rant!

:applause:

[SutaUvaca]

4. "Would you send YOUR kid for this cause?"

That's the heart of it. At the end of other rationale, there's the defining moment for the worth of this, or any, war.

And no, I would not.

[stopbush]

38. I wouldn't send my kid for the cause of winning a HS football game.

At the heart of it, no war is worth sending one's children to die in, and I mean no war, including WWII and the other "just" wars.

So, the question is irrelevant, IMO.

[liberation]

146. The question is only can only be considered irrelevant if it interferes with a specific agenda

It is fairly dangerous to go in a downward slope trying to equate validity with relevancy. A very intellectually disingenuous approach to say the least... but I assume some people are starting to scrap the bottom of the barrel trying to excuse this which has no excuse.

[BrklynLiberal]

95. Ditto! Ditto! Ditto!!!

Our children's blood is being spilled, and our national economy is being wrecked.....for a pointless, worthless battle.

How about spending the entire war/military budget on health care for the citizens of the USA?

[shireen]

142. makes you wonder how much they love their own kids. nt

[Avalux]

5. "The significant breakoff of the progressive left is occuring tonight"

Oh the drama! :eyes:

[glitch]

10. That's why frontal lobotomies are so effective, the drama gets removed from

the things in life that require it, such as life and death and basic survival.

[John Q. Citizen]

41. If it doesn't matter to you, then you must be in a pretty good an secure place.

Congratulations.

[defendandprotect]

120. Actually, I find homelessness and impoverished families rather dramatic . . .!!!

[liberation]

149. Your snark makes your Ghandi quote even the more ironic

LOL

[WilliamPitt]

6. Cheers.

Well said. K&R. :hug:

[midnight]

7. K&R.

[gleaner]

8. Very good post ...

you have made many valid points which we should all consider. I don't see anything that I disagree with. This war accomplishes nothing except to kill more of our military and the occupants of the occupied countries who only want us gone, and it drains us. Not only financially but spiritually. It also divides us into little camps of fearful citizens who are so caught up in this moment that we lose the ability to see how it fits into the bigger picture of divisiveness, loss and the rending apart of the country as a whole.

People need to stop nurturing their private concerns whether they are idealizing a version of a leader which never really existed except in their hopes and they need to stop focusing so much on only now. I hope we will have a future as a country. I hope it will be the country I grew up in and admired and believed in. We need to take it back. Obama is not behind us taking it back. He seems intent on giving more and more of it away. Our children to endless wars of attrition, our health to corporate interests, our feelings of safety and well being to howling groups of conservative thugs, our ability to earn a living to corporations who have already profited obscenely on our backs and anything else we might need to avoid lives of poverty and exploitation.

Obama is not Father Christmas and he never really gave us anything even though he had the ability to do so. And I just gave you a rec. You should have your words read and considered.

[FarLeftFist]

9. Maybe we're under a bigger National security threat than we even know.

Just throwing it out there. Maybe they don't want us to panic and live in fear so we are not getting all the details. Since Obama has taken office hasn't the FBI caught about 12+ would be terrorists on American soil. I'm against escalating Bush's war, but I'm also against people who's lifelong goal is to nuke us by any means necessary. Could there be a deeper National security concern than we all know? If we're willing to put all of our trust into the Govt. to run a single-payer HC system, shouldn't we also put the same trust in this administration and Pres. Obama's 3 month review of all the details and options. Even if we disagree.

[bertman]

28. FarLeftFist, consider this, please. We have the largest military budget in the history of mankind.

It exceeds the combined military expenditures of all other nations on Earth COMBINED. We have spent almost a TRILLION dollars on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

A large portion of our budget for intelligence operations like the CIA is a "black budget" and thus is kept secret except for a few privileged Senators and Congresscritters who get told what some CIA high-up wants them to hear.

If we spend 100's of billions of dollars on our military and intelligence/security services EVERY YEAR should we not expect that they can take care of us?? I am dead serious here.

These agencies and the private contractors they hire should be able to keep us safe and sound for centuries if they are doing their jobs. They have intelligence and special operations teams ALL OVER THE GLOBE. It's their whole purpose in life to be aware of, keep track of, and if necessary, to neutralize anyone or any group that is threatening us.

You are uninformed if you think that this effort is to root out al Qaeda. Eight years ago we invaded Afghanistan to do just that. Did we get the leader? Hell no. WANTED DEAD OR ALIVE. Remember those words from our President at the time? Well, he has never been gotten dead or alive. And his crew is a pale shadow of itself. The security risk that we are protecting with our military in Iraq and Afghanistan is the risk that the OIL COMPANIES will lose their control of the oil reserves and that China, Russia, and India will control the flow of oil and natural gas.

We knew that this petroleum fix was going to lay us low when the first withdrawal symptoms struck back in 1973. Yet, our government of Democrats and Republicans have done virtually NOTHING to make us energy independent in the intervening 36 years. The only President who TRIED to do it was Carter and he was unsuccessful.

Leave the intelligence and special ops types alone and let them do their jobs. Bring our military home and stop hemorrhaging our nation's economic resources on wars halfway around the globe. Put that money to work building the Energy-Independent America that would be free of the need to protect Big Oil. A Green Energy Economy would put the unemployed to work, use our dollars wisely, and ensure that we don't have to fight wars for oil. And it would help to reduce the carbon emissions in our atmosphere that are damaging our planet.

[BrklynLiberal]

93. So much concern for the budget by the repukes when it comes to Health Care and Education...

but nary a peep about the budget when it comes to financing a pointless war!!!!

Not enough noise by the dems either..

[shireen]

143. well-said!

We need to defend ourselves against the REAL terrorists who are making our lives hell: military industrial complex, big money, big oil, healthcare leeches, a morally corrupt judicial system. If we can get rid of these home-grown terrorists, other countries will see a system that works, and will follow our lead. That's how you achieve peace, stability, and eradicate the likes of Al Qaeda!

[Mithreal]

44. Maybe my dog can talk but he chooses not to?

When we live in fear we are easy to control and it facilitates war profiteering.

Those terrorist stories are entrapment and seem ridiculous from what I have heard but whatever.

We are being lied to about nearly everything wrt these wars.

It's not Bush's war anymore. If the new pipeline was already built and secure it wouldn't have taken a 3 month review. That 3 month review was all about timing the announcement. We are being played. Those that choose to believe otherwise, might as well continue.

[Octafish]

74. Yeah. We're running out of oil because BFEE ignored Carter.

About the first thing Pruneface Raygun did as prezident was get rid of the White House solar panels and repeal the 55-mph speed limit. After that, our national energy policy has been pretty much go-go Big Oil.

If the nation had continued to do what Jimmy Carter envisioned, we'd have energy independence today. But, noooo.

[bbgrunt]

100. I guess that England isn't too worried about continued

threats since they can only contribute 500 troops to the effort......

[gorfle]

115. THAT WILL NOT FLY WITH ME PERIOD

Maybe we're under a bigger National security threat than we even know.

I remember the run up to the Iraq war. When Colin Powel sat there on TV and showed us satellite pictures of bunkers and trucks and said, "See, this here is a decontamination truck. And these bunkers are where the WMD are."

And I questioned them. But all my friends said, "Look, your government knows things you don't. You should trust them and go along with the war because they aren't telling everything they know."

And you know what? It all turned out to be a crock of shit.

So you know what? I'm not going to believe that my government secretly knows something that we don't anymore. You want me to support your war actions? You will have to PROVE to me that it is necessary.

Personally I think we need to revoke the President's authority to send troops anywhere. I think troops should never leave our soil for wars in foreign lands without a declaration of war from Congress.

[Scruffy1]

124. Goes over like a lead pole vaulter with me too

[Enthusiast]

132. I don't trust YOU.

What do you mean "If we're willing to put all of our trust into the Govt. to run a single-payer HC system, shouldn't we also put the same trust in this administration and Pres. Obama's 3 month review of all the details and options. Even if we disagree."

Got in some Reich Wing talking points. Put all our trust into the Govt. to run single payer HC? When are we going to see single payer health care? Anyway, that is biggest case of apples and oranges I have ever heard of.

I think you are a Republican.

[pundaint]

140. You over imagine what running a single payer healthcare system entails.

Providers still run the medicine. The single payer just collects and disburses funds, and negotiates prices. And if only Congress wouldn't make it illegal to negotiate prices in the peoples interests, there's plenty of evidence the government can do this. How often do you hear of them screwing up Social Security checks? How often do you hear of an insurance company screwing something up?

[liberation]

150. In other words: Shut up and do as your a told, dear leader knows best!

I wonder, would you have said the very same things... and offer the same blind benefit of the doubt regardless of evidence to the contrary, had a certain George W. Bush proposed the very exact plan?

[JackRiddler]

160. This was the argument used to justify Bush.

If it were true, then they'd convert a part of the current force to counter-terrorism only and get out. They'd devote the resources to tracking down the individuals preparing the threats.


According to the 9/11 official story, 19 guys who met through contacts in Malaysia, Hamburg and Saudi Arabia moved to the US and trained and prepared for up to two years to hijack the planes. What they needed was someone to bring them together and a relatively small sum of money ($500,000).


What's superfluous in that plan? Do I hear, the need for a safe haven in Afghanistan?

[femrap]

11. So maybe you should write to

Skinner and see if he will reinstate all the Great Progressive Posters that were banned during the election who spoke the Truth about Obama.

Their words have been proven correct.

I knew Obama was not as he appeared....greatest marketing campaign ever, however.

[Avalux]

13. Bwaaahaahaa!!!!

:rofl:

Most ridiculous post of the day.

[femrap]

104. You are unaware of those that were

banned prior to the election?

How does it feel to be a willfully ignorant ostrich that just laughs at the Truth?

[Avalux]

184. LOL!

Not unaware; you obviously don't have a clue how long I've been here and what I know.

[femrap]

186. Then do you understand?

Or am I just dealing with a Willful Ignorant who just laughs.

So do you remember this or not?

[Sebastian Doyle]

17. Progressive posters were banned during the election?

Like Kucinich supporters, you mean?

I remember some PUMAs getting the ax, but they were hardly progressive. Their candidate wanted to obliterate Iran.

[shadowknows69]

19. OMG SD just noticed your sig line. Love it. "Heroes" represent!

[femrap]

105. I'm talking about people

who were stating some Truths about Obama and they were accused of 'treason' and banned.

Now that he has become Prez, it is obvious that these Progressive banned people knew what they were talking about. There would be no 'change.' He was not what he appeared. They have, IMHO, been vindicated.

Some of the more vocal members were banned and then everyone who agreed with them shut up so not to get banned.


ETA:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5464598

This appreciation thread was allowed by admin.

[shadowknows69]

114. error you can not recommend a reply.

:thumbsup:

[defendandprotect]

121. You can "kick" a reply however to draw attention to it --

:)

[femrap]

192. I'm glad someone remembers what

the hell went down.

[shadesofgray]

12. K&R. Awesome rant.

[mike_c]

14. massive rec!

Wow. Great post!

[Grassy Knoll]

15. Nice. n/t

[HipChick]

16. Did Obama campaign as a progressive?

[Greyhound]

48. It's really a compulsion isn't it?

Just can't stop repeating the chant...
:rofl:

[TicketyBoo]

51. Well, did he?

He's doing just what he said he'd do. Unfortunately. I had hoped he would change his mind; he didn't.

I can't be angry about that, but I can be disappointed.

[liberation]

157. He did not promise to escalate the military occupation of Afghanistan either...

So what now?

So far all I have heard from the Obama uber alles people are red herrings, straw men, and ad hominems. I'd have an ounce of respect if they had spent one tenth of the same energy in actually justifying Mr. Obama's actions with actual arguments, as they seem to be doing trying to deflect responsibility and attack the messenger when the message does not agree with their agenda.

[TicketyBoo]

190. Yes, he did.

If you didn't hear it during the campaign, you weren't paying attention.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/william-bradley/barack-obamas-war-10-key_b_380084.html

** Barack Obama ran for president on a program of escalating the war in Afghanistan.
He was very clear about this. The fact that he is now doing what he said he would do when he ran for president should be no surprise to people who supported him. Or to those who did not.

[ima_sinnic]

129. so what?he *claimed* to be a "community organizer" and "constitutional scholar"

--those both suggested an appreciation of "progressive" values, esp. the community organizer BULLSHIT.
The only "community" who has been organized and benefited since his election is the community of bankers and Wall St. scumbags. And the so-called constitutional scholar has not really been making any waves, either. In fact, some things coming down, like continued "state secrets" and complete refusal to even consider prosecuting bush et al. for war crimes.
Obama ran on a well-crafted, slickly written, phony platform of basic "change" in government, implying more emphasis on citizen involvement and a complete turnaround of murderous, self-defeating policies. He even said he was going to work on healtcare for all. That was all a big lie.

[shadowknows69]

18. K+R

[StarfarerBill]

20. Rantus maximus. +1

[OneGrassRoot]

21. That was BRILLIANT!

"This insanity has to end. We have got to regain our ability as a people, as a collective WHOLE to confront truth and have real dialogue about the actual issues and policies....This isn't happening here. We are so microscopically caught up in this one party game of a political system and watching these scenarios unfold as helpless specators, we don't even know how to have discussions about how to envision real change in the world.

We don't even talk about how we envision things COULD be because we are so vested in the false befief it is the politicians who control everything and corporations, but really it is US. We are so disenganged from our world and our lives, we act it all out through this sick game."

:applause:

K&R :)

[Gman]

22. The "progressive left" is at best a splinter group

that can never be counted on anyway. The Medea Benjamin/Cindy Sheehan types. The kind we really don't need in the Democratic Party. No big loss here.

[frylock]

91. yet it will be the fault of the progressives if the dems lose seats in 2010..

and the WH in 2012. either progressives matter or they don't, but you people need to make up your minds one way or the other.

[dana_b]

145. it was our fault for 2000 too,

don't forget.

[frylock]

167. that's what i'm saying

[bkozumplik]

147. dont need us huh

Ah--Its the *Progressives* who can't be counted on to deliver. The "center"dems and conservadems have been able to deliver all kinds of clever victories in the last year. yeah....ya big dummy.

[Gman]

182. Nope, don't need you

whatever the hell else you're talking about

[bkozumplik]

187. then you havent looked at your numbers or ours

I have a moment, let me be a nice guy and look it up for you:
wikipedia:
Social liberals, also referred to as progressives or modern liberals, constitute roughly half of the Democratic voter base.

and here as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Progressive_Caucus
The Congressional Progressive Caucus (CPC) is the largest caucus within the Democratic caucus in the United States Congress with 83 declared members, and works to advance progressive issues and positions.<1>

bag on wiki, sure, but you kind of get the picture dont you? your definition of Progressives as being the "Sheehan types" isn't everyone else's definition. And the reason the Progressive movement is so strong is because people are fed up with the mainstream democratic party apparatus getting little to nothing done and being too timid.

So by all means, ignore the Progressives, it just builds our numbers and distances us from the myriad failures of our parent party. Way to go Gman! thanks for your comment!

[Gman]

188. The numbers are impressive if

anyone ever learns how to effectively herd cats.

[bkozumplik]

189. true

..and we could count on the middle and conservative dems The (Nelson/Pryor/Landrieu types) if we learned how to herd spineless self serving non-delivering traitorous windbags. But we Progressives don't need those people. They are a splinter group, and can't be counted on to stand on any principle but servicing themselves. We're better off without them.

"Herding Cats" Isn't that the title of Trent Lott's book? You find it catchy huh? Makes my skin crawl.

You should add Ted Kennedy to your list of progressives. Yeah you Dems don't need people like Ted, do you. You're better off without such people.

[inna]

23. GREAT post. KR

:applause:

[TankLV]

24. And I don't hear a fucking single peep about HOW ARE WE GOING TO PAY FOR THIS SHIT!!!

There's NEVER any discussion on the COST of a WAR - anything and everything for KILLING, but NOTHING for HEALTH CARE!!!

[CrispyQ]

102. Haven't you heard?

Social programs for the People are pay-as-you-go. But for war it's deficits-don't-matter.

[Joe Chi Minh]

162. Oh, they're printing money. What a fantastic wheeze! Tee hee.

[Ignis]

25. Damn, you're good.

HEY, WHEN DID LISTENING TO YOUR LIBERAL VALUES EVER STEER YOU WRONG?

That's just about exactly what I needed to hear right now.

:yourock:

[liberal_at_heart]

26. This may be the last straw for alot of people

bailouts for banks but not for main street America, healthcare reform that benefits the corporations, Bush tax cuts that have not been repealed, too many lobbyists involved in policy making, no meaningful job creation, and now we play wack a mole looking for Al Qeada. I keep waiting to see some glimmer of why I should vote democrat in the next election, but I just can't find one.

[TicketyBoo]

54. Oh, wait until you see

what the Republicans dredge up from the bottom of the cesspool, and you'll figure out a reason.

[sendero]

60. Exactly how,..

.. could it be worse pray tell? Really, what has materially changed since Bush left office?

Damn little, that's what. If I have to live under the bad decisions of government, I'd rather it be Republicans making them, then they can get the credit. As it is, Obama and the Dem party is now taking ownership of every horrendous mistake Bush made. Way to go.

[OneGrassRoot]

64. Really? Wow....be careful what you wish for...

or defer to.

Albeit there are many reasons to be VERY upset/disappointed/disgusted (insert appropriate adjective) with the Obama Administration, can you imagine how things would be if Palin were in charge?

Seriously. Just imagine.

[TicketyBoo]

88. It WAS worse.

You have a REALLY short memory.

[sendero]

155. Some nibbles at the margins..

.. have been made. THAT IS ALL. We are still fighting two stupid unwinnable wars, we are still shoveling money to the military industrial and banking complexes while average citizens are barely surviving, we cannot get any meaningful reform of our health care system because our government is just as owned now as it was under Bush.

The trival advances Obama has made do not impress me. If they impress you well that is just wonderful.

[TicketyBoo]

191. Even nibbles

mean a lot, but I think it has been more than you recognize.

Backing us away from the brink of economic disaster is bigger than we can know, I believe.

[liberal_at_heart]

89. many democratic politicians are already too much like the republicans

Many democratic politicians including Obama already say they believe that marriage is between a a man and a woman which means that gay rights will never be a priority for them. They are willing to compromise on women's rights. They talk about taxing the rich but haven't even repealed the Bush tax cuts yet, they did however let the automatic gun ban expire. They let the lobbyists write public policy for them, and now they are defending a Bush war strategy that doesn't work. I'm sorry but if we keep allowing them to become more and more like the republicans soon we won't be able to recognize our party at all anymore and then what will we be left with, two republican parties? If that happens then the people will have lost all hope of having any real power over their government. We have forgotten that our government is suppose to serve us not the other way round. You can't scare me with the thought of another republican in the White House because frankly I'm more afraid of our party becoming a carbon copy of the republican party than I am of the republican party itself.

[defendandprotect]

123. That's corporatism . . . fascism . . .

and we have to keep fighting it and finding new ways to fight it --

The interests of corporations and the "religions" which fight women and homosexuality

have the same interests: Control

One way or another, "control" is exploitation for their profit.

Keep digging in -- and keep fighting!

[defendandprotect]

122. The most important thing is NOT to drop out . . .

We need a Plan B -- not voters dropping out --

In fact, at every turn where we become frustrated we have to increase our energy

and do more -- not less.

[Scruffy1]

127. Screw the unDemocratic Party

WE NEED A NEW PARTY THAT IS NOT CONTROLLED BY THE INSIDE THE BELTWAY HACKS WHO ARE SIMPLY THERE TO PRESERVE THE STATUS QUO. I voted for Obama simply because he was a far better choice than that old war whore John McCain. I knew he didn't have the spine to stand up to the MIC, the oil lobby, the health care lobby or the way things are done.No end in sight.

[defendandprotect]

135. OK . . . THAT qualifies . . .

as Plan B . . .

This is a war -- we have to keep fighting --

Most of us feel as you do --

Though many keep hoping!!



:)

[Dr.Phool]

27. K&R. Great post.

[bertman]

29. Recommended highly. Luna does wonderful things for our planet--especially when she is full.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. When did people give up their brains to the MSM and to party loyalty

over principle?

[omega minimo]

55. What -- you need to ask that, LL?

[snake in the grass]

31. k/r

[bvar22]

32. Righteous !

:patriot:

K&R

[rtassi]

33. K&R

Good One!

[billh58]

34. I applaud your

honesty and frankness. You are among the few who openly admit that "Progressives" are neither Liberal, nor Democrats, but are comprised of the minority and fringe Far Left.

[debbierlus]

109. And, that is a truly sad state of affairs when advocating for peace

A clean environment

US jobs

The best education for our kids

Health care as a right for every US citizen

When that becomes FRINGE & Far Left, this country is really lost.

It is sad when the democratic platform (if they actually followed it), it is considered a fringe far left position.

[billh58]

126. Liberal Democrats

want ALL of the same things, but we are realistic about the length of time political and social processes require in this country.

Liberal Democrats have given much to this country, and will continue to do so, but none of our advances were made overnight. The Civil Rights movement which began in the 1960s is still not finished, but we have made tremendous progress. There are many other areas where Democrats have moved this country forward socially and economically.

The past three decades of Neoconservative influence, and their successful project to dismantle the New Deal have taken us the proverbial "two steps back," but we now have an opportunity to regain at least "three steps forward." Calls for immediate, and instant gratification by the Far Left are counter-productive, and unrealistic. Liberal social and economic progress is made in increments because 50% of the voting population (and their representatives) remain Conservative. President Obama realizes this fact, and said so during his campaign.

The good news is, that the Neoconservative movement begun under Raygun, appears to be near death.

[pundaint]

139. Neoconservatives are a red herring, their corporate bosses are as entrenched as ever

It is just sooooo simple:

Are you happy with what your Government is doing? Yes - carry on, No - Fire Congress!
Every other option has failed to produce results that please me, how about you, are you pleased?

[billh58]

151. I believe the better

question would be: Will any of us ever be pleased?

For the most part, I am twice as "pleased" as I was between 2000 and 2008. Do I ever expect to see a perfect Liberal United States of America in my lifetime? Of course not, and at the age of 68 I have learned to accept small gains, but to keep working for more.

I have lived through some remarkable times, and witnessed some truly progressive forward progress by Democrats. I have no reason to expect that progress to cease just because the expectations of some are not coming to fruition as quickly as expected. Patience is a long hard lesson, but well worth the wait.

If the current contingent of "Progressives" believes that they are the first generation of Americans to protest the status quo, to feel left out, to feel unheard and ineffective, or to be filled with righteous anger, rest assured that you are only the latest in a long line of successful activists.

Peace...;-)

[truedelphi]

174. Very calmly and well stated. Thank you for your response on this

And of course, the longer rant.

[winyanstaz]

35. K & R....great post..thank you.

I just posted this same rant in a much shorter version in another post.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7132542&mesg_id=7142970

and asked the same question..but of Obama.
Would he be sending his two little ones off to war? I doubt that very much. It is always other people's kids that have to die in wars and there are always people cheerleading the death and destruction on...as long as it is not THEM or their kids going.
I say...send all war mongers to the front lines. Wars would end tomorrow.

[enigmatic]

36. K&R

[Overseas]

37. K&R! Well said, thank you! //nt

[dreamnightwind]

39. Thank You

Some proper perspective for a change. Our hard-fought electoral victory has been rendered nearly meaningless by corporate centrism, while the right calls it socialism. This dream sucks, hopefully we'll wake up soon and it will be 1999 again.

If not, I'm with you, we absolutely HAVE to find our way out of the false choices presented to us by the current political system, so we can discuss real solutions to our way too real problems.

I still hope we can use the primaries for this purpose. That's what they're there for. However, if the left decides instead to organize their own party, I'm with them.

Let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late.

[Ignis]

42. "Let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late."

It's 2 years overdue, but welcome to DU. :toast:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

117. In the primaries, urge people to look at ALL the candidates

not just the ones the MSM promotes.

If the MSM are promoting a candidate, then look for reasons why.

[dreamnightwind]

163. Agreed

Good advice indeed.

[hfojvt]

40. "it is a good thing"

Just like it was in 2000. We can look forward to more Republican controlled Congresses and Presidencies. Yay!!!

I can scarce contain the joy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imv2M64t_og&feature=related

[G_j]

43. one of my favorite posts

of all time!


:yourock:

[cliffordu]

45. K&R.

[DKRC]

46. K&R

:applause:

[Greyhound]

47. K&R, excellent rant. n/t

[Egnever]

49. Well that was a long list of talking points

Strung together in a neat little package.

Hope you feel better.

[Binka]

175. How Dear God Have I Forgotten To Put Your ASS On Ignore?

Better now.

[Nikki Stone1]

50. Strong rec.

:patriot:

[leftstreet]

52. K&R

[omega minimo]

53. The voice of the people. DU at its finest.

:yourock: :hug:









http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7133330

[jgraz]

56. Awesome post. Thanks!

:applause:

[quiet.american]

57. Okay, +1 for passion, but broadcasting from an alternate universe as usual.nt

[OnyxCollie]

58. K&R. nt

[voteearlyvoteoften]

59. Mega rec

No war damn it

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PA Democrat]

62. K & R.

I wonder how many of those bashing you are encouraging THEIR kids/ loved ones to sign up for the military?

[Wednesdays]

63. Is being an Obama supporter and a liberal mutually exclusive?

:shrug:

[varelse]

72. I hope not

A liberal can object to certain appointments, policies and decisions made by a President, and still support him, can't she?

[liberation]

159. That depends on Mr. Obama no?

[LWolf]

65. No way in hell I'd want my boys to fight this war.

I couldn't stop them; they're adults. But I'd sure apply whatever influence I hold to keep them home.

[BurtWorm]

66. I was thinking along the very same lines myself a few days ago.

When did the left ever steer the Democrats wrong? Never. And the thanks we get for that is goddamn Republican lite. :puke:

[mdmc]

67. ibtl

I hope you still get to post here at DU. Peace and low stress..

[Hepburn]

68. A fucking men!

What the hell has happened at the DU that liberal ideals such as the anti-war movement is downed?

Yesterday, I made the same anti-war remark that I have made since the 1960s ~~ if you support the war, then go or send your child ~~ and some idiot told me that was not a progressive statement.

GMAFB....

[ekwhite]

69. K&R

Thanks for the rant. Being of a certain age, this reminds me of how we started in Vietnam, and this is eerily familiar. I predict that 18 months from now, there will be an excuse to escalate again, instead of withdrawing troops.

[Voltaire]

70. Bravo, just BRAVO

The sad truth of this sad nation is that generally speaking, liberals and progressives are NEVER wrong. And they are NEVER listened to, at least until far too late. We never learn and so we shall perish as a nation. And it didn't have to be that way. Again, Bravo. You have written what I think every day of my life.

[MissDeeds]

71. Excellent post

This fellow leftie thanks you for the righteous rant. You nailed it.

K&R :pals: :yourock: :applause:

[chimpymustgo]

73. "WHEN DID LISTENING TO YOUR LIBERAL VALUES EVER STEER YOU WRONG?" K&R.

[fasttense]

75. I was in the military for 20 years and I would give my life to defend this country

But this war, with no defined ending, with guerrillas in a foreign country, is just as useless as the Iraq and the Vietnam wars.

I grew up with the Vietnam war and I know the difference between a war we must and can win, and a made up war for show. This war is a show designed to scare a handful of terrorist at the expense of hundreds of thousands of American lives. It's designed to give political capital to a handful of politicians. It's designed to protect oil and someone else's wealth. It's a sham, a show, a fake, a profit center for bush and cheney cronies.

It is not for the protection of this country that President Obama is escalating the war in Afghanistan.

I would give my life to protect this country but not to protect the obscene profits of war criminals.

[dgibby]

94. Amen!

I'm a vet, and feel just like you do. Well said!

[BeHereNow]

172. How I love your post.

Thanks for speaking TRUTH.

BHN:thumbsup: :hi: :hug:

[debbierlus]

180. Nor should anyone in this country ever ask a singe soldier to do so

[swilton]

76. This is the essence

"This numbness and blase' attitude about war has go to end. And, supporting Obama doesn't justify ANYTHING. NOTHING. Because this isn't about Obama. This isn't about the democratic party. It is not about them. They don't matter. It is US that matters and the more we enable the people who sustain the system that oppresses us, we are enslaving ourselves and our children and grandchildren to a nation of death, greed, and utter hopelessness."


We are being numbed down and distracted by Tiger Woods stories and garbage that the so-called news media puts out - I even think the tea-baggers are a distraction.

Thanks for getting it out - you are saying what a lot of us are feeling!:kick:

[StillHopingForChange]

77. Sorry about all the names you'll be called.

But K&R from me.

[nc4bo]

78. K&R. nt

[Turk 182]

79. our security and the draft

K&R
Its pretty simple really. If the war in Afghanistan is so important to our national security, then instituting a draft would be a no-brainier and everyone would be on board. Obviously, its not. Ergo- Get the hell out!
The pols know damn well that a draft would mean an end to the war and a revitalization of the youth movement of the sixties and seventies which helped to stop the Vietnam war, and an end to their precious careers.
Bush screwed up royally! Ossama's not there! The "the domino theory" of preventing the fall of Afghanistan to keep the region stable is bullshit, just like it was in Vietnam!
We are pouring borrowed money and precious lives down a rat hole.
If we really want to prevent China from gaining an advantage in the region, perhaps we should start by stopping the insane borrowing from them.
Its really pretty funny when you look at it. China is lending us money to fight a war to prevent them from having a political and economic advantage in the region, all the time undermining us from within by subverting our economy in trade deficits and interest payments which will ultimately diminish our influence globally

[tomp]

84. illogical.

If the war in Afghanistan were so important to our national security, then people would volunteer and we wouldn't need a draft. Drafts are for getting people to fight who don't want to, as are poor economic conditions and restricted life choices.

[dgibby]

97. Fastest way to end a war is to institute a draft.

That way, EVERYONE has a vested interest in ending it, not just a few.

[liberation]

161. Right... that ended the Vietnam war ipso facto, oh wait...

People need to understand that no matter what, draft or not, there are some people (usually the rich ones) who are more "equal" than others. The main reason why a lot of people at the top are at the top, it is because they are very good at finding and exploiting loop holes. An universal draft only means that the Army doesn't have to spend as much in recruiting and PR than before.

Poor people will still go to the front, and the well connected kids will get deferments or some cushy safe post. So that later on in life they can use those credentials to run for office.

The only way to end the war is either nationalizing the defense industry, outlawing with sever penalties war profiteering, or simply having an actual leader who is willing to do the right thing. American presidents have been notoriously bad at "pulling out" so maybe we should invest in national condoms until they get the hang of it....

[dgibby]

164. Agreed.

The draft would not be my choice, but it would send lots of people into the streets in protest, and lots sooner than they did during 'Nam.

There are very few Americans who have any vested interest in these wars. They are untouched unless a friend or family member is serving on AD. Hopefully, the threat of a draft would wake them up.

[tomp]

181. no draft, no fucking way.

conscription is equivalent to kidnapping, torture, and murder. if the cause is right people will fight, if not, we shouldn't be there. i make no bones about it, if you call for a draft, you are the enemy.

[mithnanthy]

80. Excellent

+1

[KoKo]

81. K&R! Well Stated..."HEY, WHEN DID LISTENING TO YOUR LIBERAL VALUES EVER STEER YOU WRONG?

:applause:

[LibDemAlways]

82. Good rant. We do ultimately, I suppose, have power that we aren't using to

change things for the better. However, when you have a public hungry for change and they elect a man who promised to shake things up, and almost a year later they see all that good will being wasted on government bailouts for Wall Street, escalation of unwinnable wars fought for dubious reasons, health care giveaways to the insurance industry, continued job losses....there is a mighty big temptation to say "screw it. This isn't the change I voted for."

A national dialogue might be helpful, but who would initiate it? Certainly not this administration. They listen to the pentagon. They listen to the CEOs. I've seen no evidence that they have any interest in listening to the people. In that regard they aren't much different from the old overlords, whose asses they continue to protect from prosecution.

The people have the numbers, but they don't have a seat at the table.

[Echo In Light]

83. K&R

[Soylent Brice]

85. K&R

[mirrera]

86. K&R!!

[slipslidingaway]

87. knr nt

[Skittles]

90. I hear you debbielus

I want my country back and I want my DU back

[BrklynLiberal]

92. righteous rant!

:applause: :headbang: :thumbsup:

[Individualist]

96. K&R

[parasearchers]

98. Unless its 3rd party in 2012 I wont vote

[defendandprotect]

119. Not having the right to vote wasn't to the advantage of African-Americans nor Women . . .

and I don't see that it's ever to anyone's advantage --

despite the farce of most of our elections.

But clearly the right wing is always engaged in trying to STOP the liberal/progressive

minded from voting -- that's been true since they wrote the Constitution which permitted

only white males who owned property to vote!!

[dgibby]

99. Bernie Sanders is a Democratic Socialist.

Wonder if he'd be game to head up his own party and run for Prez.

[bigtree]

101. tell it

Big K and R

[CrispyQ]

103. K&R

WHEN DID LISTENING TO YOUR LIBERAL VALUES EVER STEER YOU WRONG?

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[area51]

106. Excellent post.

:thumbsup:

[Kermitt Gribble]

107. Your doom and gloom can't penetrate my HopeVision glasses!

Shame so many choose bury their heads in the sand. Our one-party system of corporate govt has been obvious for quite some time - especially after 2006.

Great rant, debbierlus. Always enjoy your posts.

K&R

[debbierlus]

110. Where can I get a pair of those? I assume they are rose colored?

:smoke:

[Moondog]

108. K&R

[Javaman]

111. Very well ranted!! that was the slap upside the head some people on DU need.

Cheers!

[katty]

112. yes, long overdue-thanks K&R

[Vidar]

113. Magificent post. Recommended.

[defendandprotect]

116. While I agree with your overall slant, America is a liberal nation . . .

and the truth of that is that IF it were not, then corporations wouldn't need to spend

tens of billions controlling the truth of Global Warming --

Nor buying out and pre-bribing Congressional candidates who have de-regulated our financial

markets and brought us this new chaos --

Buying presidential/VP candidates who will appoint them to government agencies which can then

be controlled. This happens, of course, also at our State and local levels now.

Nor would corporations need to control ALL of our press -- we have not only corporate control

but CIA control in many areas --

This includes TV, Radio, Publishing -- as well as news agencies -- AP, etal . . .

If you can't control the libraries, evidently, you can control what's being published --

and overall there is an intense, obsessive drive by the right wing to control all information

because they well understand that even one pebble of truth can shatter the mirror of lies and

distorted propaganda they page for every day.



BACK to your central point that liberals/progressives lead the way -- yes, I agree.

However, some of us have stopped voting, some have moved to third parties, and some continue

to try to do what you're doing -- wake up other folks.

What the internet has given us is the opportunity for liberals/progressives to come together

and to decide on a course of action against corporatism -- moving and voting together as

a united BLOC of votes.



PS: Currently the health care issue makes this even clearer -- with the "for profit" industry
spending hundreds of millions over and again to stop Medicare for All. Why is that necessary?
Only because citizens want a single payer system.

And despite the evil work being done by the Catholic Church/Vatican in trying to stop a system
of health care reform, a very high majority of Catholics support single payer and overall reform.

No where can you look at the opposing forces of corporations and where they are applying their
money and see them fighting for truth - rather they are fighting to suppress truth.

The huge anti-war movement for almost a decade now is further evidence of this --

[Enthusiast]

134. Very perceptive, defendandprotect!

"Currently the health care issue makes this even clearer -- with the "for profit" industry
spending hundreds of millions over and again to stop Medicare for All. Why is that necessary?
Only because citizens want a single payer system."

Yup! Why is it necessary? Because the citizens want it. It is as simple as that.

[defendandprotect]

136. Thank you --

to be fair to Noam Chomsky, most of the reasoning on the "liberal/progressive" nation

which I repeated is his --

With a lot of add-on's by me!!

:)

PS: I hear only 20% of voters are identifying themselves as Repugs these days!!!

[theHandpuppet]

118. One of the very best posts I've read in a LONG time

Brava!!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Enthusiast]

125. This should be in stone somewhere.

"If you have to ask why you are even there, you know what? You shouldn't fucking be there."

[chill_wind]

128. We cannot afford this war.

Morally. Not one Bush regime war criminal has been brought to justice. President Obama didn't outlaw torture. It was always illegal. Yet the torturers and their black ops mentors continue to politically roam free as free men.

Politically and Economically. Our children and grandchildren will be paying for the consequences of our decade of widening war (and tragic trade-offs for a far better legacy we could have left them) for a long time.

www.costofwar.com

No more blank political checks. One whole rotten decade now has already been our ruination.

K & R.

[K Gardner]

130. Never thought I'd rec one of your posts, but there, I've done it. Well said. K&R

[ima_sinnic]

131. heartily recommended! and I've been wondering

how the Obama cheerleaders think he is going to be reelected with progressives fleeing the exits in every direction. The smug attitude that "there's nobody else to vote for" is not going to fly with me or with way too many others in the next election--so many others that Obama could damn well lose the election. Hey, maybe the progressive candidate would even have a chance--but probably what will happen is that the repuke turd will be elected, and the U.S. will spiral down to the shot in the head it needs to start over, wisely, sanely, and humanely.

[arthritisR_US]

133. I liked your rant, well worth the read. TY:-) n/t

[RedCloud]

137. A standing O

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[RoccoR5955]

138. K & R... I wish I could kick this all the way up to the top... PERMANENTLY! n/t

On edit: I am proud to be the 225th rec. for this thread!

[shireen]

141. WOW! reading that felt good!

thank you!!!

:hug:

[dana_b]

144. that was wonderfully stated

especially how disengaged we are. I'm not saying that people on this board aren't paying attention or trying to do some good in their neck of the woods, but it is rare.

[wowimthere]

148. K/R I wrote my rant yesterday... I wonder what changed at DU? People slept on it

digested the the consequences of war escalation. I used my voice and one comment told me that most agreed with her opinion that "we should have known he was going to dump more troops into Afghanistan, stop bitching!" I'm glad someone got through to people at DU. I'm glad you cracked some thick headed thinking. This escalation was wrong even if you like the president. Thanks for speaking up and putting it out there. I knew I was not alone.

[sfnative]

152. Best thread I've read in ages!!!

As Kucinich said, "Wake up, America!" It's a class warfare. It's not Republican vs. Democrat. It's the owning class vs. the working class. The poor have always fought the rich man's war.

[pleah]

153. K&R

[earth mom]

154. K & R! nt

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

156. This has been posted here by someone every two weeks for my entire time on DU.

And somehow, the dire predictions have never come to pass.

[BlueJac]

158. Well said and very true

[malaise]

165. Excellent rant

Rec

[pmorlan1]

166. K & R

Thank you and my thanks to all the other DU'ers who have recommended your post. It's refreshing to see so many people who are more concerned with promoting the welfare of the country than they are in blindly toeing the party line. I'm so tired of reading posts by so called Democrats who cheer on what Obama does when they condemned the same behavior when Bush did it.

[La Coliniere]

168. Awesome rant

Your words say it all. K&R

[quiet.american]

169. 'we... walked in lockstop with... democrats as they betrayed our most core princples.'

You know, I wasn't going to say anything else, but here it is this post is seemingly pinned to the top of the Greatest Page, and everyone's standing up applauding yet another anti-Democratic Party rant from the OP (one that's based as usual on the OP's own interpretation of reality) -- and all the while another poster's OP was locked simply for the use of the word "pony."

Bizarro World seems to have finally taken over DU.

[Loge23]

170. Good Moon Rising - thank you! (eom)

[BeHereNow]

171. Recommend #264 and PROUD of it.

Like a broken record, I have repeated myself for years on DU
with this statement:

Until the people of this country understand what the TRUE
problem is, we are doomed. Yes, doomed.

BHN

[Drunken Irishman]

173. So, a full moon means what, exactly?

Progressives are werewolves and they're changing tonight?

[mnhtnbb]

176. Still time to rec. And it is a beautiful moon AND a great rant.

[MisterK]

177. The war is stupidity defined

Obama is stupid. He just blew it.

[MisterK]

178. BTW

These simpleminded wars are just a way for people to make money.

They use every excuse to fight them but its all about that money.

[Lorien]

179. A lot of people have piled on you over the past year or more

screaming that you would have "preferred McCain/ Palin" or worse. I hope they get it now, I truly do. Not so long ago I noted that being anti-war was the ONLY issue left that DUers generally agreed on. Not anymore, obviously. There are plenty of Liberals on his board, and there are nearly as many DLC DINOS who agree with the GOP on every issue save one, be it unions or choice or the drug war. Being ALMOST the same as the Right just doesn't cut it anymore. I'm afraid that the time for third and forth parties has come.

[pecwae]

183. Very, very well stated!

I'm late and want to thank the member who kicked this up for me to see:)

[peekaloo]

185. kick

:applause:

[ShortnFiery]

193. Yes!

Liberal Democratic KICK! :dem:

[debbierlus]

194. Glad this was so well received. It is heartening to see so many here

Passionate about putting principles over party, and holding elected officials to account!